Formula one.

[normal rules]

I’m not a big fan, but that’s a win for formula one as a sport.
Interestingly, the Latifi crash possibly involved Schumacher.
Had Hamilton gone on to win, he would have broken his dads record.
One for the conspiracy theorists.
Lots of acrimony to come over this no doubt.

[DRFC_TID_93]

It's a disgraceful decision. It's an abuse of the rules. Only 4 cars let to unlap themselves? Not then allowed to catch up to the back of the pack, and only happened after Red Bull got on the radio to complain about it. A good year decided by people sat in an office misusing the rules for the value of 'excitement'... But at what cost to the integrity of the sport?

[Filo]

I’m not a big fan, but that’s a win for formula one as a sport.
Interestingly, the Latifi crash possibly involved Schumacher.
Had Hamilton gone on to win, he would have broken his dads record.
One for the conspiracy theorists.
Lots of acrimony to come over this no doubt.

That was not a win for F1 or FIA, it was a disgraceful decision, you either let all lapped cars pass or none at all, Horner moans and the FIA kisses his arse

[NigelJ]

It's a disgraceful decision. It's an abuse of the rules. Only 4 cars let to unlap themselves? Not then allowed to catch up to the back of the pack, and only happened after Red Bull got on the radio to complain about it. A good year decided by people sat in an office misusing the rules for the value of 'excitement'... But at what cost to the integrity of the sport?

Absolutely. This 'fix' to established rules will set F1 back years.
That wasn't sport. Its the equivalent of a team 12-0 up being told by the ref that next goal wins.

[normal rules]

I’m not a big fan, but that’s a win for formula one as a sport.
Interestingly, the Latifi crash possibly involved Schumacher.
Had Hamilton gone on to win, he would have broken his dads record.
One for the conspiracy theorists.
Lots of acrimony to come over this no doubt.

That was not a win for F1 or FIA, it was a disgraceful decision, you either let all lapped cars pass or none at all, Horner moans and the FIA kisses his arse

You miss my point. I don’t imply I agree. It’s a win for the sport, as a spectacle. Controversy,  drama. Big big decisions. Right or wrong.
I don’t give a hoot about f1 but today I got interested. In the drama, in the spectacle.
Lewis winning again. No drama, no spectacle.
Massive massive shout by those behind the scenes. And Mercedes have appealed.
F1 has generated a lot more interest, which means ultimately more money.
The FIA will never overturn a decision against themselves.

Sets it up for next season already.

[glosterred]

I can see this rumbling on for a while yet, maybe even to the CAS. Could be an interesting few weeks to come. But Masi has created a real sh1t storm to come.

[phllvslc]

Can someone explain to me, in as basic terms as possible, what happened please? I have no clue when it comes to F1.

[Superspy]

Absolute joke of a decision for me given the way the regulations are worded. They clearly say the message to unlap needs to go to ALL teams, and then ALL drivers are required to unlap themselves. It then also says after the last car has unlapped itself the safety car must come in at the end of THE FOLLOWING LAP. Neither of those things happened. Verstappen has done an amazing job through the season, but if the regulations were applied correctly that race should have finished under the safety car with Hamilton as the champ.

Get ready for some bs about the regulations being a 'framework' and the race director having discretion in terms of how they're applied though.

[Superspy]

Can someone explain to me, in as basic terms as possible, what happened please? I have no clue when it comes to F1.

A safety car situation happened with 5 laps to go due to a crash.
Under safety car conditions all cars follow the safety car and are not allowed to overtake.
Under the regulations the people who control the race can allow any car that has been lapped to unlap themselves by overtaking everybody including the safety before restarting the race.
On this occasion there were several cars between Hamilton (in position 1) and Verstappen. The race director decided that only the cars in between the 2 of them were allowed to unlap themselves. This meant that there was enough time to do the last lap under race conditions, with Verstappen having brand new tires because he'd just done a pitstop, leaving Hamilton a sitting duck.

If the regulations were applied correctly (by allowing all lapped cars to unlap themselves and the safety car completing 1 adidtional lap), there wouldn't have been enough time (in terms of laps) for all cars to unlap themselves and still race, so the race would have ended with Hamilton as the winner.

[Filo]

Absolute joke of a decision for me given the way the regulations are worded. They clearly say the message to unlap needs to go to ALL teams, and then ALL drivers are required to unlap themselves. It then also says after the last car has unlapped itself the safety car must come in at the end of THE FOLLOWING LAP. Neither of those things happened. Verstappen has done an amazing job through the season, but if the regulations were applied correctly that race should have finished under the safety car with Hamilton as the champ.

Get ready for some bs about the regulations being a 'framework' and the race director having discretion in terms of how they're applied though.

The original directive was that no lapped cars were allowed to unlap themselves leaving four cars between Lewis and Max, then moaner Horner got into the race directors head and the directive was changed to allow only the four cars to unlap themselves, leaving Max to come up right behind Lewis on nearly new softs, once they took that decision they effectively  handed Max the world title. Mercedes didn’t have time to question that decision before the last lap started, not Max’s fault and not Lewis fault, the fault of the FIA and race director. The right thing to do is declare the race finished at the start of the safety car

[phllvslc]

Can someone explain to me, in as basic terms as possible, what happened please? I have no clue when it comes to F1.

A safety car situation happened with 5 laps to go due to a crash.
Under safety car conditions all cars follow the safety car and are not allowed to overtake.
Under the regulations the people who control the race can allow any car that has been lapped to unlap themselves by overtaking everybody including the safety before restarting the race.
On this occasion there were several cars between Hamilton (in position 1) and Verstappen. The race director decided that only the cars in between the 2 of them were allowed to unlap themselves. This meant that there was enough time to do the last lap under race conditions, with Verstappen having brand new tires because he'd just done a pitstop, leaving Hamilton a sitting duck.

If the regulations were applied correctly (by allowing all lapped cars to unlap themselves and the safety car completing 1 adidtional lap), there wouldn't have been enough time (in terms of laps) for all cars to unlap themselves and still race, so the race would have ended with Hamilton as the winner.

I appreciate it. Thank you.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I couldn't give two tosses about F1 and I know even less about it. But having just seen the footage on the news, that is absolutely farcical. How can you have a sport where the first 95% of the contest is over-ruled by an arbitrary ruling that, as Nigel says, makes in next goal winner.

[Superspy]

Absolute joke of a decision for me given the way the regulations are worded. They clearly say the message to unlap needs to go to ALL teams, and then ALL drivers are required to unlap themselves. It then also says after the last car has unlapped itself the safety car must come in at the end of THE FOLLOWING LAP. Neither of those things happened. Verstappen has done an amazing job through the season, but if the regulations were applied correctly that race should have finished under the safety car with Hamilton as the champ.

Get ready for some bs about the regulations being a 'framework' and the race director having discretion in terms of how they're applied though.

The original directive was that no lapped cars were allowed to unlap themselves leaving four cars between Lewis and Max, then moaner Horner got into the race directors head and the directive was changed to allow only the four cars to unlap themselves, leaving Max to come up right behind Lewis on nearly new softs, once they took that decision they effectively  handed Max the world title. Mercedes didn’t have time to question that decision before the last lap started, not Max’s fault and not Lewis fault, the fault of the FIA and race director. The right thing to do is declare the race finished at the start of the safety car

Completely agree. Some say that would be punishing Max but I disagree. It's not a penalty. It's not him being penalised. Yes it's taking a title away from him that he thinks he's won but that's an emotional thing, not a logical one, because he wouldn't have been in this position in the first place if the regs had been correctly applied.

I don't even really blame Christian Horner that much....his moaning does my head in...but both team principals will fight for their teams. I blame Masi for not being strong enough in dealing with it and trying to hard to make it a spectacle. Any other race and it would have ended under the safety car.

Whoever loses this decision is clearly going to appeal. Wouldn't be surprised if it goes all the way to CAS.

[Superspy]

I couldn't give two tosses about F1 and I know even less about it. But having just seen the footage on the news, that is absolutely farcical. How can you have a sport where the first 95% of the contest is over-ruled by an arbitrary ruling that, as Nigel says, makes in next goal winner.

And that's the point...if there were enough laps left to follow the regs properly, and that resulted in Max overtaking Lewis then I wouldn't have an issue with it. You see it all the time in the sport where a safety car closes up the gap a leader has built up...it sucks for the leader, but that's where race strategy becomes so important and it's a team sport. It's also one of the reasons why "Virtual" Safety Cars were brought in. But in this case the rules simply were not followed by the people in charge.

[normal rules]

Max confirmed champion.
This will go to court no doubt now.

[glosterred]

Max confirmed champion.
This will go to court no doubt now.

We certainly haven’t heard the last of this. Some lawyers are going to get richer out of this

[Filo]

Max confirmed champion.
This will go to court no doubt now.

And so it should, why have rules if the race director ignores the rules and trumps them?

[Superspy]

The fact they're saying that regulation 48.13 negates 48.12 is insane because 48.13 is procedural in that it is how the situation is handled every single time...meaning 48.12 is actually a waste of ink...

[roversdude]

Not a big fan of Hamilton but he’s been shafted there

[Donnywolf]

A crash is a crash is a crash whenever it happens

Masi was determined to finish the race with at least one last lap of racing .... which was wrong imo.

It should have restarted using the protocol for a restart with the track declared open again , and ALL lapped cars being allowed to pass the safety car when instructed

Once the last one has passed they are free to zoom round to join the back of the pack and so they are NOT in the way of the restart

Once they have all gone past the Rules state that the Safety Car must complete 1 more complete lap so if the last lapped car overtakes the Safety Car with 10 yards to go before the Line the SC then goes for one more Lap (plus that 10 yards) but if the last car passes the SC 10 yards after the Line then SC has to complete that Lap but then go for a further (complete) Lap

Masi was desperate for a finish to the big race but by the rules he had to instruct ALL lapped cars to go past SC but his plan was scuppered as there were not enough laps left

So he tried a fudge and was going to allow the lapped cars to stay where they were between Ham and Verstappen which would have been fairer but Cristian Moaner got on the horn and pressured him to let the past BUT only the 4 and once they had gone he CANT legally start the race simply by calling the SC in because it had to do a full lap

So Ham was done up like a kipper and Masi should lose his job AND F1 is a big loser with all the potential new Fans thinking - wtf was that all about

[normal rules]

BLM

Beaten last minute.

[Ldr]

To all of you who have suddenly become “experts” in f1 regulations. The 4 page adjudication document is at the top of this Reddit thread

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/revt58/decision_mercedes_protest_art_4812/

[Superspy]

Regardless of your completely unnecessary condescending input on this thread, I stand by my thoughts on the situation being a case of the house backing the house, the inconsistency of the regulations being applied based on precedent, and that those regulations are contradictory in nature based on their interpretation for this one specific race, which was interpreted differently than any race that has gone before.

[Donnywolf]

Agree it is a totally unacceptable decision but once Masi chose his "hybrid" decision to let only 4 cars past to "make a grandstand / exciting" finish he had cooked the books but they have closed in around him

They are defending the indefensible as he looked to have only 2 legal options

a) allow lapped cars past SC but that means all of them - and then SC had to do one more. That would mean the laps would run out but crashes happen - and finishing behind SC isnt ideal but "tough luck"

b) in his remit he could choose to leave the Lapped cars where they were and start race once track was cleared. Verstappen would have 2 or 3 laps to catch Lew but at least he would benefit from lapped Cars being told he was there and Blue Flags telling them a faster car is behind you - move over

I have never known this to be done but it was legal

What he chose to do, directly in contravention of the rules he is supposed to work to and make others uphold was firstly let half of the Cars past but secondly let the S Car leave the track straight away instead of making it do one more Lap

Both those are against their Rules so he made a mess for FIA and the sport

[sha66y]

Sounds like sour grapes to me!……fnar!

I can’t say how pleased I am that that arrogant playboy lost….

And the unfairness of the decision only adds to my pleasure…

Sorry to offend anyone but Hamilton is on my list of what is wrong with this world

[Filo]

Agree it is a totally unacceptable decision but once Masi chose his "hybrid" decision to let only 4 cars past to "make a grandstand / exciting" finish he had cooked the books but they have closed in around him

They are defending the indefensible as he looked to have only 2 legal options

a) allow lapped cars past SC but that means all of them - and then SC had to do one more. That would mean the laps would run out but crashes happen - and finishing behind SC isnt ideal but "tough luck"

b) in his remit he could choose to leave the Lapped cars where they were and start race once track was cleared. Verstappen would have 2 or 3 laps to catch Lew but at least he would benefit from lapped Cars being told he was there and Blue Flags telling them a faster car is behind you - move over

I have never known this to be done but it was legal

What he chose to do, directly in contravention of the rules he is supposed to work to and make others uphold was firstly let half of the Cars past but secondly let the S Car leave the track straight away instead of making it do one more Lap

Both those are against their Rules so he made a mess for FIA and the sport

If the other cars were allowed to unlap then Sainz would have been in 3rd right behind Max with fresh softs on, it’s not beyond the bounds of possibilty that Sainz could have dived down the inside of Max, but that scenario was taken away by a bent race director

[keyser_soze]

Agree it is a totally unacceptable decision but once Masi chose his "hybrid" decision to let only 4 cars past to "make a grandstand / exciting" finish he had cooked the books but they have closed in around him

They are defending the indefensible as he looked to have only 2 legal options

a) allow lapped cars past SC but that means all of them - and then SC had to do one more. That would mean the laps would run out but crashes happen - and finishing behind SC isnt ideal but "tough luck"

b) in his remit he could choose to leave the Lapped cars where they were and start race once track was cleared. Verstappen would have 2 or 3 laps to catch Lew but at least he would benefit from lapped Cars being told he was there and Blue Flags telling them a faster car is behind you - move over

I have never known this to be done but it was legal

What he chose to do, directly in contravention of the rules he is supposed to work to and make others uphold was firstly let half of the Cars past but secondly let the S Car leave the track straight away instead of making it do one more Lap

Both those are against their Rules so he made a mess for FIA and the sport

It would have been chaotic to start the race with a load of lapped cars in the way, i can certainly see why those rules were applied,  but surely it wouldn't have taken much longer to let the other (3?) cars through, isn't the main beef that normally lapped cars are given a whole extra lap under the safety car to catch the field up? Whereas yesterday as soon as the last one (Vettel?) was through the safety car lights went out.

I'm pleased Verstappen won, i think its good for the sport to have different winners, but the manner in which it happened was very unsatisfactory and felt like manufactured drama.

[rich1471]

Agree it is a totally unacceptable decision but once Masi chose his "hybrid" decision to let only 4 cars past to "make a grandstand / exciting" finish he had cooked the books but they have closed in around him

They are defending the indefensible as he looked to have only 2 legal options

a) allow lapped cars past SC but that means all of them - and then SC had to do one more. That would mean the laps would run out but crashes happen - and finishing behind SC isnt ideal but "tough luck"

b) in his remit he could choose to leave the Lapped cars where they were and start race once track was cleared. Verstappen would have 2 or 3 laps to catch Lew but at least he would benefit from lapped Cars being told he was there and Blue Flags telling them a faster car is behind you - move over

I have never known this to be done but it was legal

What he chose to do, directly in contravention of the rules he is supposed to work to and make others uphold was firstly let half of the Cars past but secondly let the S Car leave the track straight away instead of making it do one more Lap

Both those are against their Rules so he made a mess for FIA and the sport

It would have been chaotic to start the race with a load of lapped cars in the way, i can certainly see why those rules were applied,  but surely it wouldn't have taken much longer to let the other (3?) cars through, isn't the main beef that normally lapped cars are given a whole extra lap under the safety car to catch the field up? Whereas yesterday as soon as the last one (Vettel?) was through the safety car lights went out.

I'm pleased Verstappen won, i think its good for the sport to have different winners, but the manner in which it happened was very unsatisfactory and felt like manufactured drama.

i can certainly see why those rules were applied , i am no expert on motor racing rules , but the rules were not followed that's the issue , you can not make them up as you go along even if its not the outcome you want.

[wilts rover]

Sounds like sour grapes to me!……fnar!

I can’t say how pleased I am that that arrogant playboy lost….

And the unfairness of the decision only adds to my pleasure…

Sorry to offend anyone but Hamilton is on my list of what is wrong with this world

Verstappen has lived in Monaco since October 2015, claiming it was not for tax reasons.* wiki

You support for the down to earth millionaire tax dodger is very touching.

[normal rules]

Hamilton lives in Monaco too.