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Author Topic: MPs that change party  (Read 2868 times)

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tommy toes

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #30 on January 20, 2022, 06:10:10 pm by tommy toes »
Who was the most famous UK politician of the 20th century?

I'm glad you said most famous and not the best.
That would be Clement Atlee.
No contest.



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ravenrover

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #31 on January 20, 2022, 06:28:29 pm by ravenrover »
If Mark Spencer wasn't my Conservative candidate I might vote Conservative, sorry I vote for the person not the party

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #32 on January 20, 2022, 06:31:32 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
But there's the other question I asked earlier.

If people vote for a party,  then presumably any MP who ever votes against his party's whip should be made to stand down and face a by-election?

But then if that happened what’s the point of having MPs that represent local communities at all?

But then that implies that you accept that an MP can place his or her judgement above party allegiance on any topic.

It's a very difficult issue.

DonnyOsmond

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #33 on January 20, 2022, 06:32:24 pm by DonnyOsmond »
The changing of party can be valid occasionally. But he's disagreed with so much labour have said that it becomes quite a bizarre match.

Aye. I can understand them not wanting to be in that party anymore but you can't be a conservative (small c) one moment then be a progressive with social policy beliefs the next. It'd make more sense for them to be independent or to make a new party between them.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #34 on January 20, 2022, 06:39:26 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Who was the most famous UK politician of the 20th century?

I'm glad you said most famous and not the best.
That would be Clement Atlee.
No contest.

If you define a political leader as a success through having a vision of what they wanted to achieve and implementing that, Churchill 1940-45 is head and shoulders the best PM of the 20th century.

Attlee and Thatcher are equal second.

drfchound

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #35 on January 20, 2022, 06:40:16 pm by drfchound »
MPs crossing the floor, regardless of party, is a real bugbear of mine. Who the hell do they think they are? Legally we vote for individuals but it is universally known most people vote for the party the individuals' represent - this is fundamental to how our democracy works in voting in governments.

If an individual has changed his/her politics then fine they should have the courage of their convictions and stand in a by election, justify their decision to the electorate and see if they are agreed with by the people who elected them in the first place.

Do you think an MP who votes against the whip of the party they stood for at the Election should be forced to stand for a by-election?

In most cases i think people vote for the party not the man. I would be interested to see the comments on here if a Labourite had joined the Tories....

What’s your view on 11 independents having joined the conservatives in 2019?


That is slightly different though isn’t it aidenstu?
Independants haven’t  left a Party to join another.

aidanstu

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #36 on January 20, 2022, 06:44:22 pm by aidanstu »
MPs crossing the floor, regardless of party, is a real bugbear of mine. Who the hell do they think they are? Legally we vote for individuals but it is universally known most people vote for the party the individuals' represent - this is fundamental to how our democracy works in voting in governments.

If an individual has changed his/her politics then fine they should have the courage of their convictions and stand in a by election, justify their decision to the electorate and see if they are agreed with by the people who elected them in the first place.

Do you think an MP who votes against the whip of the party they stood for at the Election should be forced to stand for a by-election?

In most cases i think people vote for the party not the man. I would be interested to see the comments on here if a Labourite had joined the Tories....

What’s your view on 11 independents having joined the conservatives in 2019?


That is slightly different though isn’t it aidenstu?
Independants haven’t  left a Party to join another.

I don’t see it; they have left the party with whom they were with when you voted for them.

If you sponsored a player for the rovers and he transferred to scunny or retired would you still expect to pay for his kit?

drfchound

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #37 on January 20, 2022, 06:51:52 pm by drfchound »
MPs crossing the floor, regardless of party, is a real bugbear of mine. Who the hell do they think they are? Legally we vote for individuals but it is universally known most people vote for the party the individuals' represent - this is fundamental to how our democracy works in voting in governments.

If an individual has changed his/her politics then fine they should have the courage of their convictions and stand in a by election, justify their decision to the electorate and see if they are agreed with by the people who elected them in the first place.

Do you think an MP who votes against the whip of the party they stood for at the Election should be forced to stand for a by-election?

In most cases i think people vote for the party not the man. I would be interested to see the comments on here if a Labourite had joined the Tories....

What’s your view on 11 independents having joined the conservatives in 2019?


That is slightly different though isn’t it aidenstu?
Independants haven’t  left a Party to join another.

I don’t see it; they have left the party with whom they were with when you voted for them.

If you sponsored a player for the rovers and he transferred to scunny or retired would you still expect to pay for his kit?

But they were independants, so they weren’t in a Party, were they?

aidanstu

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #38 on January 20, 2022, 06:56:35 pm by aidanstu »
MPs crossing the floor, regardless of party, is a real bugbear of mine. Who the hell do they think they are? Legally we vote for individuals but it is universally known most people vote for the party the individuals' represent - this is fundamental to how our democracy works in voting in governments.

If an individual has changed his/her politics then fine they should have the courage of their convictions and stand in a by election, justify their decision to the electorate and see if they are agreed with by the people who elected them in the first place.

Do you think an MP who votes against the whip of the party they stood for at the Election should be forced to stand for a by-election?

In most cases i think people vote for the party not the man. I would be interested to see the comments on here if a Labourite had joined the Tories....

What’s your view on 11 independents having joined the conservatives in 2019?


That is slightly different though isn’t it aidenstu?
Independants haven’t  left a Party to join another.

I don’t see it; they have left the party with whom they were with when you voted for them.

If you sponsored a player for the rovers and he transferred to scunny or retired would you still expect to pay for his kit?

But they were independants, so they weren’t in a Party, were they?

You can almost guarantee that many people voted for them as they didn’t want to vote for the main parties; I’d be furious if I voted for an “independent” and the. Found out they were so “non-independent” that they felt they had to align to a specific party. I’m not sure what you’re missing?

drfchound

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #39 on January 20, 2022, 06:59:33 pm by drfchound »
MPs crossing the floor, regardless of party, is a real bugbear of mine. Who the hell do they think they are? Legally we vote for individuals but it is universally known most people vote for the party the individuals' represent - this is fundamental to how our democracy works in voting in governments.

If an individual has changed his/her politics then fine they should have the courage of their convictions and stand in a by election, justify their decision to the electorate and see if they are agreed with by the people who elected them in the first place.

Do you think an MP who votes against the whip of the party they stood for at the Election should be forced to stand for a by-election?

In most cases i think people vote for the party not the man. I would be interested to see the comments on here if a Labourite had joined the Tories....

What’s your view on 11 independents having joined the conservatives in 2019?


That is slightly different though isn’t it aidenstu?
Independants haven’t  left a Party to join another.

I don’t see it; they have left the party with whom they were with when you voted for them.

If you sponsored a player for the rovers and he transferred to scunny or retired would you still expect to pay for his kit?

But they were independants, so they weren’t in a Party, were they?

You can almost guarantee that many people voted for them as they didn’t want to vote for the main parties; I’d be furious if I voted for an “independent” and the. Found out they were so “non-independent” that they felt they had to align to a specific party. I’m not sure what you’re missing?

I’m not missing anything mate, in fact I agree with your sentiments on why people might vote for MPs.

I am just saying that they haven’t left one Party for another, and saying that an independent who joins a political Party is slightly different to one going from one to another one.

aidanstu

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #40 on January 20, 2022, 07:19:41 pm by aidanstu »
I think it’s actually worse going from being an independent to being signed to a party; with it you get the party whip and opportunities to progress within the parties if you don’t cause too much trouble.

As an independent in the field I’m in now I’m not allowed to affiliate with other businesses due to the possibility of bias. I shouldn’t be able to take in work, join one of those agencies and still charge my clients as if I’m independent.

Superspy

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #41 on January 20, 2022, 07:24:46 pm by Superspy »
But there's the other question I asked earlier.

If people vote for a party,  then presumably any MP who ever votes against his party's whip should be made to stand down and face a by-election?

I don't normally get involved in these threads but this one doesn't appear to have descended into the usual pissing contest yet so here goes...

I don't think those are the same thing.

If somebody votes for a particular party, they don't necessarily agree with absolutely everything the party does/stands for, and for the same reason I think it would be naive to to expect an MP to agree with absolutely everything too...which is why it pisses me off so much when things that shouldn't be politicised end up being....mask wearing being a good recent example.

If I vote for Party A - I'm broadly aligning myself with Party A's idealogy/manifesto/whatever, but I'm not expecting my MP to agree with everything the party puts forward. I AM, however, expecting them to remain a member of that party and to be, like myself, broadly aligned with that party, but to make decisions in parliament in the best interests of me and my neighbours.

If that MP then switches completely over to a different party/idealogy/manifesto, that's not making good on the commitment they were voted in on, in my opinion, and therefore there should be a by-election.

drfchound

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #42 on January 20, 2022, 07:34:55 pm by drfchound »
But there's the other question I asked earlier.

If people vote for a party,  then presumably any MP who ever votes against his party's whip should be made to stand down and face a by-election?

I don't normally get involved in these threads but this one doesn't appear to have descended into the usual pissing contest yet so here goes...

I don't think those are the same thing.

If somebody votes for a particular party, they don't necessarily agree with absolutely everything the party does/stands for, and for the same reason I think it would be naive to to expect an MP to agree with absolutely everything too...which is why it pisses me off so much when things that shouldn't be politicised end up being....mask wearing being a good recent example.

If I vote for Party A - I'm broadly aligning myself with Party A's idealogy/manifesto/whatever, but I'm not expecting my MP to agree with everything the party puts forward. I AM, however, expecting them to remain a member of that party and to be, like myself, broadly aligned with that party, but to make decisions in parliament in the best interests of me and my neighbours.

If that MP then switches completely over to a different party/idealogy/manifesto, that's not making good on the commitment they were voted in on, in my opinion, and therefore there should be a by-election.

That’s the way I see it too superspy.
I have said many times that most people vote for the Party, not necessarily the individual MP candidate in question.
I should say though that many times on here I have been shot down by some other posters.
We have all seen those tv interviews where the person being questioned locally says that they are going to vote for Starmer/ Johnson instead of mentioning the local candidates.

Superspy

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #43 on January 20, 2022, 07:44:12 pm by Superspy »
Yup, completely agree. I've only voted in 1 GE, and I voted party rather than my candidate, but honestly I think my point and my opinion on this holds regardless of whether you vote for party or person, as even if you vote for person, the campaign they run will be based around the ideals of their party...or you'd expect so.

Branton Red

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #44 on January 20, 2022, 08:26:07 pm by Branton Red »
MPs crossing the floor, regardless of party, is a real bugbear of mine. Who the hell do they think they are? Legally we vote for individuals but it is universally known most people vote for the party the individuals' represent - this is fundamental to how our democracy works in voting in governments.

If an individual has changed his/her politics then fine they should have the courage of their convictions and stand in a by election, justify their decision to the electorate and see if they are agreed with by the people who elected them in the first place.

Do you think an MP who votes against the whip of the party they stood for at the Election should be forced to stand for a by-election?

Hi Billy that's a fair question.

If an MP is voting against the party whip consistently then yes. I'm in favour of having independent-minded MPs in Parliament voting occasionally at odds with their party plus MPs are justified on local issues to vote in a way putting constituents above party. In both instances the MP needs to justify their decision to the electorate - something most MPs are generally very good at.

What constitutes 'consistently' is a mute point but even the most obstreperous back-bencher only votes against the whip very rarely so any MP regularly voting against the party line would stand out and be highlighted very quickly.

Someone crossing the floor however esp Government to Opposition vice versa is clearly indicating that they will be voting against the will of the electorate at the time they were elected. This is clearly wrong and undemocratic. The electorate's opinion may have shifted in the meantime too but that should be confirmed democratically at the ballot box with a by-election.

Branton Red

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #45 on January 20, 2022, 08:34:34 pm by Branton Red »
Who was the most famous UK politician of the 20th century?

I'm glad you said most famous and not the best.
That would be Clement Atlee.
No contest.

If you define a political leader as a success through having a vision of what they wanted to achieve and implementing that, Churchill 1940-45 is head and shoulders the best PM of the 20th century.

Attlee and Thatcher are equal second.

It could be argued Lloyd George was as influential in winning the First World War as Churchill was the Second. He then implemented a series of important social reforms post-war. So he needs adding into your list.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #46 on January 20, 2022, 09:27:40 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Lloyd George would be 4th on my list. His was more a managerial job of mobilisation after the amateurishness of the Asquith Govt. Important and necessary, but the UK position in 1916 wasn't remotely as difficult as the one facing Churchill in 1940. Churchill inspired a nation to a great calling, when his main Tory competitor for the position of PM (Lord Halifax) would have angled for a squalid peace with Hitler.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #47 on January 20, 2022, 09:29:23 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
MPs crossing the floor, regardless of party, is a real bugbear of mine. Who the hell do they think they are? Legally we vote for individuals but it is universally known most people vote for the party the individuals' represent - this is fundamental to how our democracy works in voting in governments.

If an individual has changed his/her politics then fine they should have the courage of their convictions and stand in a by election, justify their decision to the electorate and see if they are agreed with by the people who elected them in the first place.

Do you think an MP who votes against the whip of the party they stood for at the Election should be forced to stand for a by-election?

Hi Billy that's a fair question.

If an MP is voting against the party whip consistently then yes. I'm in favour of having independent-minded MPs in Parliament voting occasionally at odds with their party plus MPs are justified on local issues to vote in a way putting constituents above party. In both instances the MP needs to justify their decision to the electorate - something most MPs are generally very good at.

What constitutes 'consistently' is a mute point but even the most obstreperous back-bencher only votes against the whip very rarely so any MP regularly voting against the party line would stand out and be highlighted very quickly.

Someone crossing the floor however esp Government to Opposition vice versa is clearly indicating that they will be voting against the will of the electorate at the time they were elected. This is clearly wrong and undemocratic. The electorate's opinion may have shifted in the meantime too but that should be confirmed democratically at the ballot box with a by-election.

Let's take Corbyn as an example. He defied the Labour whip on average about once every ten days between 1997 and 2010. Should he have been forced to step down and have multiple by-elections?

SydneyRover

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #48 on January 20, 2022, 09:36:41 pm by SydneyRover »
Good point, how many byelections could there be?

Branton Red

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #49 on January 20, 2022, 09:45:21 pm by Branton Red »
Let's take Corbyn as an example. He defied the Labour whip on average about once every ten days between 1997 and 2010. Should he have been forced to step down and have multiple by-elections?
[/quote]

Yes assuming your data is accurate (not that I'm doubting it). In my view though Labour would have had the option once a by-election was triggered to field a separate candidate meaning Corbyn would then have to stand on a different ticket and justify his voting pattern/political stance. This would avoid the likelihood ultimately of multiple by-elections.

wilts rover

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #50 on January 20, 2022, 09:55:43 pm by wilts rover »
Let's take Corbyn as an example. He defied the Labour whip on average about once every ten days between 1997 and 2010. Should he have been forced to step down and have multiple by-elections?

Yes assuming your data is accurate (not that I'm doubting it). In my view though Labour would have had the option once a by-election was triggered to field a separate candidate meaning Corbyn would then have to stand on a different ticket and justify his voting pattern/political stance. This would avoid the likelihood ultimately of multiple by-elections.
[/quote]

They could. More realistically they could have stood another candidate against him at the General Elections in 2001, 2005 and 2010 - but didn't.

Did anyone notice a Tory MP, Anne Morris (Newton Abbott), had the whip withdrawn last week after voting against government on cutting VAT on energy bills.. She is now an Independent.

You get kicked out for attempting to help people escape poverty - and let back in as a convicted sex pest. This so called government of the people sure knows some funny people.

Branton Red

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #51 on January 20, 2022, 10:17:42 pm by Branton Red »
Lloyd George would be 4th on my list. His was more a managerial job of mobilisation after the amateurishness of the Asquith Govt. Important and necessary, but the UK position in 1916 wasn't remotely as difficult as the one facing Churchill in 1940. Churchill inspired a nation to a great calling, when his main Tory competitor for the position of PM (Lord Halifax) would have angled for a squalid peace with Hitler.

Don't disagree with your analysis. For me as a successful war leader AND important social reformer Lloyd George rates very highly in 20th Century PMs. I can't disagree with you on Churchill at top of the list though given the importance to not just UK but European and World history of the stance he took and that the country followed in 40-45.

Metalmicky

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Re: MPs that change party
« Reply #52 on January 21, 2022, 02:17:29 pm by Metalmicky »
Some rumours going around that Wakeford had assurances from Labour handlers other Conservative MP's were about to cross over also....

Meanwhile...... the latest on Mr Wakeford seems a bit of an oversight...

https://order-order.com/2022/01/21/labour-still-running-attack-ads-against-christian-wakeford/

 

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