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Who was the most famous UK politician of the 20th century?
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 20, 2022, 05:40:33 pmBut there's the other question I asked earlier.If people vote for a party, then presumably any MP who ever votes against his party's whip should be made to stand down and face a by-election?But then if that happened what’s the point of having MPs that represent local communities at all?
But there's the other question I asked earlier.If people vote for a party, then presumably any MP who ever votes against his party's whip should be made to stand down and face a by-election?
The changing of party can be valid occasionally. But he's disagreed with so much labour have said that it becomes quite a bizarre match.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 20, 2022, 04:05:21 pmWho was the most famous UK politician of the 20th century?I'm glad you said most famous and not the best.That would be Clement Atlee.No contest.
Quote from: Axholme Lion on January 20, 2022, 01:53:07 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 20, 2022, 12:37:21 pmQuote from: Branton Red on January 19, 2022, 09:55:39 pmMPs crossing the floor, regardless of party, is a real bugbear of mine. Who the hell do they think they are? Legally we vote for individuals but it is universally known most people vote for the party the individuals' represent - this is fundamental to how our democracy works in voting in governments.If an individual has changed his/her politics then fine they should have the courage of their convictions and stand in a by election, justify their decision to the electorate and see if they are agreed with by the people who elected them in the first place.Do you think an MP who votes against the whip of the party they stood for at the Election should be forced to stand for a by-election?In most cases i think people vote for the party not the man. I would be interested to see the comments on here if a Labourite had joined the Tories....What’s your view on 11 independents having joined the conservatives in 2019?
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 20, 2022, 12:37:21 pmQuote from: Branton Red on January 19, 2022, 09:55:39 pmMPs crossing the floor, regardless of party, is a real bugbear of mine. Who the hell do they think they are? Legally we vote for individuals but it is universally known most people vote for the party the individuals' represent - this is fundamental to how our democracy works in voting in governments.If an individual has changed his/her politics then fine they should have the courage of their convictions and stand in a by election, justify their decision to the electorate and see if they are agreed with by the people who elected them in the first place.Do you think an MP who votes against the whip of the party they stood for at the Election should be forced to stand for a by-election?In most cases i think people vote for the party not the man. I would be interested to see the comments on here if a Labourite had joined the Tories....
Quote from: Branton Red on January 19, 2022, 09:55:39 pmMPs crossing the floor, regardless of party, is a real bugbear of mine. Who the hell do they think they are? Legally we vote for individuals but it is universally known most people vote for the party the individuals' represent - this is fundamental to how our democracy works in voting in governments.If an individual has changed his/her politics then fine they should have the courage of their convictions and stand in a by election, justify their decision to the electorate and see if they are agreed with by the people who elected them in the first place.Do you think an MP who votes against the whip of the party they stood for at the Election should be forced to stand for a by-election?
MPs crossing the floor, regardless of party, is a real bugbear of mine. Who the hell do they think they are? Legally we vote for individuals but it is universally known most people vote for the party the individuals' represent - this is fundamental to how our democracy works in voting in governments.If an individual has changed his/her politics then fine they should have the courage of their convictions and stand in a by election, justify their decision to the electorate and see if they are agreed with by the people who elected them in the first place.
Quote from: aidanstu on January 20, 2022, 02:28:20 pmQuote from: Axholme Lion on January 20, 2022, 01:53:07 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 20, 2022, 12:37:21 pmQuote from: Branton Red on January 19, 2022, 09:55:39 pmMPs crossing the floor, regardless of party, is a real bugbear of mine. Who the hell do they think they are? Legally we vote for individuals but it is universally known most people vote for the party the individuals' represent - this is fundamental to how our democracy works in voting in governments.If an individual has changed his/her politics then fine they should have the courage of their convictions and stand in a by election, justify their decision to the electorate and see if they are agreed with by the people who elected them in the first place.Do you think an MP who votes against the whip of the party they stood for at the Election should be forced to stand for a by-election?In most cases i think people vote for the party not the man. I would be interested to see the comments on here if a Labourite had joined the Tories....What’s your view on 11 independents having joined the conservatives in 2019?That is slightly different though isn’t it aidenstu?Independants haven’t left a Party to join another.
Quote from: drfchound on January 20, 2022, 06:40:16 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 20, 2022, 02:28:20 pmQuote from: Axholme Lion on January 20, 2022, 01:53:07 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 20, 2022, 12:37:21 pmQuote from: Branton Red on January 19, 2022, 09:55:39 pmMPs crossing the floor, regardless of party, is a real bugbear of mine. Who the hell do they think they are? Legally we vote for individuals but it is universally known most people vote for the party the individuals' represent - this is fundamental to how our democracy works in voting in governments.If an individual has changed his/her politics then fine they should have the courage of their convictions and stand in a by election, justify their decision to the electorate and see if they are agreed with by the people who elected them in the first place.Do you think an MP who votes against the whip of the party they stood for at the Election should be forced to stand for a by-election?In most cases i think people vote for the party not the man. I would be interested to see the comments on here if a Labourite had joined the Tories....What’s your view on 11 independents having joined the conservatives in 2019?That is slightly different though isn’t it aidenstu?Independants haven’t left a Party to join another.I don’t see it; they have left the party with whom they were with when you voted for them.If you sponsored a player for the rovers and he transferred to scunny or retired would you still expect to pay for his kit?
Quote from: aidanstu on January 20, 2022, 06:44:22 pmQuote from: drfchound on January 20, 2022, 06:40:16 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 20, 2022, 02:28:20 pmQuote from: Axholme Lion on January 20, 2022, 01:53:07 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 20, 2022, 12:37:21 pmQuote from: Branton Red on January 19, 2022, 09:55:39 pmMPs crossing the floor, regardless of party, is a real bugbear of mine. Who the hell do they think they are? Legally we vote for individuals but it is universally known most people vote for the party the individuals' represent - this is fundamental to how our democracy works in voting in governments.If an individual has changed his/her politics then fine they should have the courage of their convictions and stand in a by election, justify their decision to the electorate and see if they are agreed with by the people who elected them in the first place.Do you think an MP who votes against the whip of the party they stood for at the Election should be forced to stand for a by-election?In most cases i think people vote for the party not the man. I would be interested to see the comments on here if a Labourite had joined the Tories....What’s your view on 11 independents having joined the conservatives in 2019?That is slightly different though isn’t it aidenstu?Independants haven’t left a Party to join another.I don’t see it; they have left the party with whom they were with when you voted for them.If you sponsored a player for the rovers and he transferred to scunny or retired would you still expect to pay for his kit?But they were independants, so they weren’t in a Party, were they?
Quote from: drfchound on January 20, 2022, 06:51:52 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 20, 2022, 06:44:22 pmQuote from: drfchound on January 20, 2022, 06:40:16 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 20, 2022, 02:28:20 pmQuote from: Axholme Lion on January 20, 2022, 01:53:07 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 20, 2022, 12:37:21 pmQuote from: Branton Red on January 19, 2022, 09:55:39 pmMPs crossing the floor, regardless of party, is a real bugbear of mine. Who the hell do they think they are? Legally we vote for individuals but it is universally known most people vote for the party the individuals' represent - this is fundamental to how our democracy works in voting in governments.If an individual has changed his/her politics then fine they should have the courage of their convictions and stand in a by election, justify their decision to the electorate and see if they are agreed with by the people who elected them in the first place.Do you think an MP who votes against the whip of the party they stood for at the Election should be forced to stand for a by-election?In most cases i think people vote for the party not the man. I would be interested to see the comments on here if a Labourite had joined the Tories....What’s your view on 11 independents having joined the conservatives in 2019?That is slightly different though isn’t it aidenstu?Independants haven’t left a Party to join another.I don’t see it; they have left the party with whom they were with when you voted for them.If you sponsored a player for the rovers and he transferred to scunny or retired would you still expect to pay for his kit?But they were independants, so they weren’t in a Party, were they?You can almost guarantee that many people voted for them as they didn’t want to vote for the main parties; I’d be furious if I voted for an “independent” and the. Found out they were so “non-independent” that they felt they had to align to a specific party. I’m not sure what you’re missing?
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 20, 2022, 05:40:33 pmBut there's the other question I asked earlier.If people vote for a party, then presumably any MP who ever votes against his party's whip should be made to stand down and face a by-election?I don't normally get involved in these threads but this one doesn't appear to have descended into the usual pissing contest yet so here goes...I don't think those are the same thing.If somebody votes for a particular party, they don't necessarily agree with absolutely everything the party does/stands for, and for the same reason I think it would be naive to to expect an MP to agree with absolutely everything too...which is why it pisses me off so much when things that shouldn't be politicised end up being....mask wearing being a good recent example.If I vote for Party A - I'm broadly aligning myself with Party A's idealogy/manifesto/whatever, but I'm not expecting my MP to agree with everything the party puts forward. I AM, however, expecting them to remain a member of that party and to be, like myself, broadly aligned with that party, but to make decisions in parliament in the best interests of me and my neighbours.If that MP then switches completely over to a different party/idealogy/manifesto, that's not making good on the commitment they were voted in on, in my opinion, and therefore there should be a by-election.
Quote from: tommy toes on January 20, 2022, 06:10:10 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 20, 2022, 04:05:21 pmWho was the most famous UK politician of the 20th century?I'm glad you said most famous and not the best.That would be Clement Atlee.No contest. If you define a political leader as a success through having a vision of what they wanted to achieve and implementing that, Churchill 1940-45 is head and shoulders the best PM of the 20th century.Attlee and Thatcher are equal second.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 20, 2022, 12:37:21 pmQuote from: Branton Red on January 19, 2022, 09:55:39 pmMPs crossing the floor, regardless of party, is a real bugbear of mine. Who the hell do they think they are? Legally we vote for individuals but it is universally known most people vote for the party the individuals' represent - this is fundamental to how our democracy works in voting in governments.If an individual has changed his/her politics then fine they should have the courage of their convictions and stand in a by election, justify their decision to the electorate and see if they are agreed with by the people who elected them in the first place.Do you think an MP who votes against the whip of the party they stood for at the Election should be forced to stand for a by-election?Hi Billy that's a fair question.If an MP is voting against the party whip consistently then yes. I'm in favour of having independent-minded MPs in Parliament voting occasionally at odds with their party plus MPs are justified on local issues to vote in a way putting constituents above party. In both instances the MP needs to justify their decision to the electorate - something most MPs are generally very good at.What constitutes 'consistently' is a mute point but even the most obstreperous back-bencher only votes against the whip very rarely so any MP regularly voting against the party line would stand out and be highlighted very quickly.Someone crossing the floor however esp Government to Opposition vice versa is clearly indicating that they will be voting against the will of the electorate at the time they were elected. This is clearly wrong and undemocratic. The electorate's opinion may have shifted in the meantime too but that should be confirmed democratically at the ballot box with a by-election.
Let's take Corbyn as an example. He defied the Labour whip on average about once every ten days between 1997 and 2010. Should he have been forced to step down and have multiple by-elections?
Lloyd George would be 4th on my list. His was more a managerial job of mobilisation after the amateurishness of the Asquith Govt. Important and necessary, but the UK position in 1916 wasn't remotely as difficult as the one facing Churchill in 1940. Churchill inspired a nation to a great calling, when his main Tory competitor for the position of PM (Lord Halifax) would have angled for a squalid peace with Hitler.