Ukraine

[Bristol Red Rover]

Russian-sympathetic media you say? Should we have welcome Leni Riefenstahl and Lord Haw Haw onto our airwaves in 1938 to tell us why the invasion of the Sudetenland was justified?

BRR.
Who were we at war with in 1938?

Your lazy dismissal of the analogy speaks volumes.

Apologies, I missed the 1938 angle.

Yes, I think it's important to hear all perspectives no matter how uncomfortable that may be, and even with the hindsight of what was to follow. Do you think a one sided take on the Vietnam war would have helped anyone?

A positive of analogies is they can bring a different perspective. A problem is tey are inevitably not perfect to a larger or lesser degree. They often contain emotively persuasive aspects which fog the quest for understanding.

In this instance, you are suggesting certain perspectives should be restricted from the pot of discussion? Why is that? Surely understanding motives, seeing the bigger picture, and then being able to honestly form judgements based on all that, counter untruths ad so on, is the better way.

Like I mentioned, there is the perspective, often mentioned and adhered to in this thread, that only the Russians are killing civilians, the current Ukraine government are the pure goodies, the issue is simply Russia has invaded, anexed, that the west has no responsibility. Simplistic, black and white, and exactly what an establishment strives to make "fact".

There's also the stories of low moral amongst Russian troops, failure of their equipment and tactics where everything on the Ukraine side is hunky dory, lack of territorial gains, huge rising objections in Russia to Putin and the war, some of which may be partially true but is certainly blown out of proportion and leaves people with a fairytale understanding of the situation. Is that good?

[Ldr]

To restrict narrative, censorship and platform denial all historically are tools of the right which now seem to be more and more appropriated by the left. Prime example being universities and local authorities cancelling performances. Unless you gave been there on the front lines in Ukraine then you know nothing for sure

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR. Analogies. Let me tell you an old but true story. I think there's a lot to learn by reflecting on it.

There was once a powerful and proud Empire, run by a ruthlessly domineering clique.

They had enemies though, in other countries.

And after a long and difficult struggle, the Empire collapsed and faded away. Lands that they used to rule gained their own statehood and freedom.

Meanwhile, back in the Homeland, things weren't good. The powerful previous rulers were replaced by weak men. The economy collapsed, not helped by the actions of the countries who had defeated them. The country lost its pride and resentment festered.

Then along came a strong man. He was from humble origins and had pulled himself up from the gutter by skillfully siding with thugs and criminals. He told his people that they could be Great Again. That they should destroy their enemies at home and make their enemies abroad fear and respect them.

The People wanted that. They elected him their head of Government.

And he set about cementing that power. He unpicked the democratic checks and balances. He destroyed the free Press. He used targetted and relentless propaganda to push his line. He had opponents intimidated or killed.

He became an unchallengeable Leader. The embodiment of far-right ethno-nationalist power.

And then he set about bringing surrounding countries to heel. The country immediately to his south had, within its borders, a lot of people who ethnically an culturally considered themselves part of the Homeland. They considered themselves an oppressed minority. The Leader promised to protect them and threatened the neighboring country with military force...


Let's pause the story there.

It's obvious I'm talking about Germany from 1918 until the Sudetenland conflict.

Or am I talking about Russia from 1989 to 2014?

See, at the top level there are an astonishing number of similarities in the two cases.

Of course in the earlier case, despite the Czechs being up for resisting German aggression, they were sacrificed by the West who refused to assist them. Most historians now think that was one of the great blunders of history, and that Hitler would have been contained if the UK and France had gone all in on supporting Czechoslovakia. But we didn't. We gave in to the fascist thug. And in doing so, we set him on the road to the conflict that killed 30 million Europeans.

Fortunately, the West today is in the process of destroying the heir to Hitler.

But you would have us listen to Russian propaganda and give Putin a fair hearing. Presumably you would equally have been prepared to argue why Hitler wasn't all bad when he invaded Czechoslovakia?

[normal rules]

I don’t understand why Ukrainian forces don’t deploy large powerful speakers to the frontline and play Coldplay tracks loud, in the direction of advancing Russian troops. That would have them shooting themselves.

[BillyStubbsTears]

A bit like when James Blunt reckons he stopped the outbreak of WWII when he was in the peacekeeping forces in Kosovo. I should imagine when the Russians saw him, they sank to their knees and offered unconditional surrender, just as long as he didn't sing.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11753050

[River Don]

Even more effective, they could set up a stage on the frontline and have Chris Martin and co perform live...

Knowing they have the awesome power of Ed Sheeran as back up, that might break the Geneva convention though.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BST, impressed with your analogy until the pause. Czechoslovakia is not nearly similar to Ukraine in that it wasn't being taken over by a major force that directly threatened Germany ie NATO/US/EU in Ukraines case. That is very important in the current situation.

So, it seems you, maybe inadvertantly, are using rhetoric to make your overall point?

The deliberate aggressive actions of the West are as unforgivable as Putin pulling the trigger. It's always been the US's ideal to wipe Russia off the map. Who would you say is the Hitler embedded in the US?

[Bristol Red Rover]

And, yes I would want to hear the German's reason for their actions. Information is always good, and can be argued with and put in context, and negotiations employed to avert further problems, if not avert the action eg of Germany in the first place. I'd also be taking into account the shoddy end of WW1 that gave rise to the situation.

[River Don]

I'm not sure Ukraine was being 'taken over' by NATO/EU.

More applying to join them.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I'm not sure Ukraine was being 'taken over' by NATO/EU.

More applying to join them.

There you go with the BBC line

NATO and the EU have pushed their invites very strongly including lots of support for the pro parties. They did more than stir up a hornets nest. But more so, It's the US that wants the big slice of the pie as well as pushing Russia to the brink. And what happened? Who jhas suffered? Who has gained?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Impossible RD. It's like arguing with a Jehovah's Witness.

If you start from a position that The West is the bad guy, you will perform whatever intellectual gymnastics you need to to convince yourself that the West is the bad guy.

It was ever thus with the extreme Left. The fact that they've re-invented themselves on the extreme Right, providing cover stories to fascist butchers doesn't change the MO.

[wilts rover]

BRR - and there you go again spouting Putin's propoganda. As used by Johnson (who also blamed Ukraine applying to join the EU as the cause for the invasion I seem to remember).

This is false and an excuse for Putin's invasion(s) not the true reason for them. That he has stated several times. He does not believe Ukraine should exisit but it is merely and historically a region of Russia as published here:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_the_Historical_Unity_of_Russians_and_Ukrainians

He has pushed this for years:

The notion that Ukraine is not a country in its own right, but a historical part of Russia, appears to be deeply ingrained in the minds of many in the Russian leadership. Already long before the Ukraine crisis, at an April 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest, Vladimir Putin reportedly claimed that “Ukraine is not even a state! What is Ukraine? A part of its territory is [in] Eastern Europe, but a[nother] part, a considerable one, was a gift from us!” In his March 18, 2014 speech marking the annexation of Crimea, Putin declared that Russians and Ukrainians “are one people. Kiev is the mother of Russian cities. Ancient Rus’ is our common source and we cannot live without each other.” Since then, Putin has repeated similar claims on many occasions. As recently as February 2020, he once again stated in an interview that Ukrainians and Russians “are one and the same people”, and he insinuated that Ukrainian national identity had emerged as a product of foreign interference. Similarly, Russia’s then-Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev told a perplexed apparatchik in April 2016 that there has been “no state” in Ukraine, neither before nor after the 2014 crisis.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseih/2020/07/01/there-is-no-ukraine-fact-checking-the-kremlins-version-of-ukrainian-history/

https://theconversation.com/putins-antagonism-toward-ukraine-was-never-just-about-nato-its-about-creating-a-new-russian-empire-177687

https://www.rochester.edu/newscenter/ukraine-history-fact-checking-putin-513812/

Criticise the US, the EU, the 'west' all you like but Putin is an imperialist fascist dictator. Anyone attempting to push his 'motivations' without mentioning this fact is an apologist for him.

[River Don]

Strong invitations are so much worse than tanks, warships, troops and hypersonic missles.

[River Don]

I'm not sure Ukraine was being 'taken over' by NATO/EU.

More applying to join them.

There you go with the BBC line

NATO and the EU have pushed their invites very strongly including lots of support for the pro parties. They did more than stir up a hornets nest. But more so, It's the US that wants the big slice of the pie as well as pushing Russia to the brink. And what happened? Who jhas suffered? Who has gained?

Those who conceived this war want only one thing – to remain in power forever, live in pompous tasteless palaces, sail on yachts comparable in tonnage and cost to the entire Russian Navy, enjoying unlimited power and complete impunity. To achieve that they are willing to sacrifice as many lives as it takes.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BST, WR and RD - you are missing my point. I am saying there is more than one narrative to this war, more than the pro west one you are regurgitating which is like reading a Janet and John story.

I am not in favour of the Russian action, nor am I in favour of the US imperialist, soft fascimo game - which is purely for the folks in the US and Cayman Islands etc, to get their second yachts, and for others to get their second Starship Enterprise or whatever they view their ludicrous boy toys as.

Nor am I in favour of the German led EU game - arguably something that has it's roots in some dodgy history BST might wish to retell?

To be clear, I detest all gangster states, including ours. They are fundamentally evil but reflect the aspect of humans that has been forever in existance. That ego trip that rises to the top, always. It is the people of the Ukraine that suffer here, in the onslaught of Russian and US arms, all of which ultimately are paid for by people around the world and make money for billionaires, and probably most peoples pensions. And the people of the world - well not the Russian ologarchs, or the Yankee Oligarchs, or the numerous other subgangsters around the world. And the people tricked into being warriors for the elite.

If you want to believe all you are told by the BBC, fill yer boots. And remember to pay the license fee too  Meanwhile, I'll continue to look in as many places as possible for info.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR.

Meanwhile, in the real world, once the bombs had started falling and the Russian armoured columns had started heading to Kyiv, you had a choice to make.

- Arm Ukraine and help them resist.
- Sit in a corner complaining about how much responsibility the West bears and say everyone should stop fighting and start negotiating, while Putin obliterated Ukranian democracy and turned it into a client state.

The Far Left/Far Right have constantly called for the second outcome. Dress it up how you like, that is supporting a fascist imperialist.

[SydneyRover]

I'm not sure Ukraine was being 'taken over' by NATO/EU.

More applying to join them.

There you go with the BBC line

NATO and the EU have pushed their invites very strongly including lots of support for the pro parties. They did more than stir up a hornets nest. But more so, It's the US that wants the big slice of the pie as well as pushing Russia to the brink. And what happened? Who jhas suffered? Who has gained?

Which invitation was the more attractive would you think brr, putin's or the west's and what if any inducements have been used?

And if you were looking to join a club .................

[BillyStubbsTears]

On the one hand you have pushing invites

On the other you have carpet bombing cities.

Tough call int it?

[Bristol Red Rover]

This is something not coming over on the BBC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bac5Q2wvIT4

From the comments:"Briefly. Appeal to the President and the military command on behalf of the unit and the entire people. They do not have sufficient weapons, there is no equipment that would cover them and there are not enough people. As a result, they are unable to complete their assigned tasks and have no desire to die in this manner." ie they surrendered.

[Bristol Red Rover]

On the one hand you have pushing invites

On the other you have carpet bombing cities.

Tough call int it?

Invites, and manipulation of a country's democratic processes that amongst other things leads to a very large section of the country being adversely affected, and then an army containing some very nasty troops sent in to quel them, murdering civilians. Strange how you choose to miss or dismiss that bit.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I'm not sure Ukraine was being 'taken over' by NATO/EU.

More applying to join them.

There you go with the BBC line

NATO and the EU have pushed their invites very strongly including lots of support for the pro parties. They did more than stir up a hornets nest. But more so, It's the US that wants the big slice of the pie as well as pushing Russia to the brink. And what happened? Who jhas suffered? Who has gained?

Which invitation was the more attractive would you think brr, putin's or the west's and what if any inducements have been used?

And if you were looking to join a club .................

If you go about choosing to be friends of those with the best sweeties to offer, then... oh, dear.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So come on BRR. What do YOU say should happen when you have Putin obliterating cities.

Not in your ideal world where everyone acts as you'd like them to. In THIS one. Here. Now.

[Bristol Red Rover]

BRR.

Meanwhile, in the real world, once the bombs had started falling and the Russian armoured columns had started heading to Kyiv, you had a choice to make.

- Arm Ukraine and help them resist.
- Sit in a corner complaining about how much responsibility the West bears and say everyone should stop fighting and start negotiating, while Putin obliterated Ukranian democracy and turned it into a client state.

The Far Left/Far Right have constantly called for the second outcome. Dress it up how you like, that is supporting a fascist imperialist.

The idjuts who took it to that place are the ones needing a kicking, and that is people on both sides. You absolve a specific section of them. That is a dire space to hang your hat.

[Bristol Red Rover]

So come on BRR. What do YOU say should happen when you have Putin obliterating cities.

Not in your ideal world where everyone acts as you'd like them to. In THIS one. Here. Now.

Here, now, the US and NATO are arming them. Go too far that way and the risk of harm to the whole world doesn't beaar thinkiing about. But meanwhile all that does is get more people killed. Is that your plan?

[SydneyRover]

On the one hand you have pushing invites

On the other you have carpet bombing cities.

Tough call int it?

Invites, and manipulation of a country's democratic processes that amongst other things leads to a very large section of the country being adversely affected, and then an army containing some very nasty troops sent in to quel them, murdering civilians. Strange how you choose to miss or dismiss that bit.

And the democratic processes in putinland, where are they?

[BillyStubbsTears]

So come on BRR. What do YOU say should happen when you have Putin obliterating cities.

Not in your ideal world where everyone acts as you'd like them to. In THIS one. Here. Now.

Here, now, the US and NATO are arming them. Go too far that way and the risk of harm to the whole world doesn't beaar thinkiing about. But meanwhile all that does is get more people killed. Is that your plan?

Very well sidestepped. You're good at pointing out the theoretical problems and avoiding real world answers.

[Bristol Red Rover]

On the one hand you have pushing invites

On the other you have carpet bombing cities.

Tough call int it?

Invites, and manipulation of a country's democratic processes that amongst other things leads to a very large section of the country being adversely affected, and then an army containing some very nasty troops sent in to quel them, murdering civilians. Strange how you choose to miss or dismiss that bit.

And the democratic processes in putinland, where are they?

Agreed not great, but then in Yankee land, and most of the countries they invade (a lot!), not great either. The illusion of democracy eh!

[SydneyRover]

quick look over there

[Bristol Red Rover]

So come on BRR. What do YOU say should happen when you have Putin obliterating cities.

Not in your ideal world where everyone acts as you'd like them to. In THIS one. Here. Now.

Here, now, the US and NATO are arming them. Go too far that way and the risk of harm to the whole world doesn't beaar thinkiing about. But meanwhile all that does is get more people killed. Is that your plan?

Very well sidestepped. You're good at pointing out the theoretical problems and avoiding real world answers.

You too, eh!

If, in this case, US/NATO/EU could see where this was going, where their deliberate actions were pushing, surely they could step back and work out some other less imperialist route. But they didn't, partly because they were happy to chance their arm with either getting away with it, or have Russia embroiled in a long war with them arming Ukraine to a lesser or larger extent. That's where the real choice was.

Now, it's the lesser of evils to pick. If I was suddenly captain of the US/NATO/EU, I'd maybe arm Ukraine as has been done, but also heavily pressure them to immediately negotiate giving land to Russia ie pretty much what they have plus the whole Donbas. I'd also compensate them substantially for "our" past f**k up rebuilding everything with brass knobs on, no loans just gifts, and have trials of all those involved in pushing this situation to the brink, notably those working in underhanded ways. I'd develop a trading solution that allowed them to work more closely with Europe as well as Russia. I'd guarantee minimal US involvement with Ukraine in any way - maybe allow McDonalds and the like but not the bigger companies and anything that could remotely be considered linked with warfare - eg the biotech companies. I'd have temporary UN troops along the borders wit Russia. All that part of the initial negotiation with Russia where they gained land.

And you?

[Bristol Red Rover]

quick look over there

Not pretty is it!