Ukraine

[SydneyRover]

A stitch in time .................

This comes as a former defence secretary accused previous Downing Street operations of being reluctant to support Kyiv in the aftermath of Russian president Vladimir Putin’s annexing of Crimea in 2014.

Michael Fallon told The Sunday Times that, when serving under former Conservative prime minister David Cameron, he was told to turn down requests for assistance in upgrading Ukraine’s defences despite the Ministry of Defence wanting “to do more”.

“We were stymied and we were blocked in Cabinet from sending the Ukrainians the arms they needed,” Mr Fallon told the newspaper.

“Some in the Cabinet felt extremely strongly that we should do nothing to further provoke Russia.

“I felt that was absurd. The Russians didn’t need any provoking. They were already there, sending people across the border.”

from the Guardian

[wilts rover]

Syd, those are actually quotes from a big article in the Sunday Times on how and why, despite what the media line is now, since 2014 the Tories failed/refused to arm Ukraine so it would be able to repel a Russian invasion - until it was too late.

Not because they were leading on diplomatic efforts for de-escalation, as Corbyn says he would have done, but because they wanted Putin's money so didn't want to annoy him. They are not responsible for the invasion - but their actions helped enable it. Particuarly under Johnson:

There were many calls for Britain to confront Putin in a way that would demonstrate the high cost he would have to pay for breaking international law. The pressure to take decisive action greatly increased after the Salisbury chemical weapon attack.

As a result, two parliamentary inquiries — by the foreign affairs committee in 2018 and the intelligence and security committee in 2020 — called for sanctions to be imposed on the oligarchs in London. The committees’ recommendations, however, were largely ignored by the May and Johnson governments. While he was foreign secretary, Johnson sidestepped implementing the findings of the foreign affairs committee and later, as prime minister, delayed the release of the intelligence committee’s report. Britain did not independently sanction any oligarch with known UK assets until Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24.

There were a number of reasons for this inertia. A significant one, some claim, was the cosy relationship between the government and wealthy Russians who entertained ministers; gave money to the Conservative Party; brought wealth into London; and acquired important national assets such as a newspaper and Premier League football clubs.

It's free to read the full article - and its well worth a read

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ukraine-spent-seven-years-begging-three-pms-for-weapons-and-no-one-listened-58t5m9kkq

At the same time of course we were still sending arms and other military exports to Russia

https://bylinetimes.com/2022/02/15/uk-approved-military-exports-to-russia-exceed-ukraine-by-18-million-since-2010/

https://www.nationalworld.com/news/politics/uk-sell-weapons-russia-arms-exports-ukraine-crimea-3585359

[SydneyRover]

Thanks wilts, this report should send shivers down the spine of government, if they had one, it's a devastating litany of greed, cowardice and ineptitude at the top of successive tory governments especially where johnson is concerned and I would say supports every comment I have made about him and them.

I look forward to comments from any of this governments defenders on what they think.

[River Don]

We have to keep in mind, hardly anybody thought the Russians would launch an all-out assault on Ukraine. Not least the Ukrainians. Not even Putin who thought he'd be welcomed in.

The international community hoped to bring Russia into the fold through trade. They thought the interdependence that brings would change Russia.

Crimea was a wake up call, that pretty much everyone ignored because interdependence is a two way thing and western Europe had come to rely on Russian hydrocarbons.

[SydneyRover]

Did you read the article RD?

[River Don]

Did you read the article RD?

Not yet.

But that was the thinking. The same has happened with China, western investment would open it up and change it. China would no longer be a threat. China would become more like Hong Kong.

That hasn't turned out so well either.

[SydneyRover]

That doesn't excuse anything RD, I'd recommend anyone that wants to comment on the government's response to the Ukraine war and what led up to it to read the report.

The Times (that lefty rag) article is comprehensive and compelling.

[River Don]

I'd like to read it but I'm not keen on signing up for it, even it is free.

[SydneyRover]

I'd like to read it but I'm not keen on signing up for it, even it is free.

Unfortunately I had to do that but I will cancel after 6 months so the special offer will only add 2 quid to murdoch's coffers.

correction 1 pound

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hitting the oligarchs, while the right thing to do, would not have stopped Putin. Putin doesn't need the support of the oligarchs and hasn't done for over 15 years.

[SydneyRover]

The oligarchs, washing money through London, reports not acted upon all get a guernsey and more, combined the signal to Putin was 'come on down'

''Ukraine spent 7 years begging 3 PMs for weapons - and no one listened, Cameron, May and Johnson failed to contain Putin.

In the years after the Russian army rolled into Ukraine in 2014, the British minister in charge of fielding requests from Kyiv for military assistance was the defence secretary, Michael Fallon. He was the man who reluctantly kept having to say “no”. Fallon now looks back on that time with bitter regret. “I and the ministry wanted to do more,” he recalls. “We were stymied and we were blocked in cabinet from sending the Ukrainians the arms they needed.

In public David Cameron, the prime minister, insisted that the Ukraine crisis could be solved only by diplomacy — and therefore it was unnecessary to provide arms to the country. This was because, according to Fallon, those at the top of government feared that arming Ukraine would draw Putin’s ire.

Some in the cabinet felt extremely strongly that we should do nothing to further provoke Russia,” Fallon said. “I felt that was absurd. The Russians didn’t need any provoking. They were already there, sending people across the border.”

Britain’s policy of refusing to sell weapons to Ukraine continued for seven years. By the time Boris Johnson became foreign secretary in 2016, Russia had seized the Crimean peninsula, shot down the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, and given military support to President Assad’s ruthless regime in Syria.

Yet Johnson sought a “normalisation” of relations with Russia despite its illegal occupation of Crimea, and was a vocal advocate for the policy of sending only non-lethal military equipment to Kyiv.''

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ukraine-spent-seven-years-begging-three-pms-for-weapons-and-no-one-listened-58t5m9kkq

And it looks like Cameron was on the same page as Corbyn ..... ''it could only be solved by diplomacy''

[TheDonnyPop]

If people could leave the politcal point scoring to one side. A baby girl and mother has died in shelling leaving behind a grieving husband.

The bay girl was 3 months old. Had been born into a country about to be invaded.

Absolutely sickening. 3 months old for god's sake.

[SydneyRover]

If people could leave the politcal point scoring to one side. A baby girl and mother has died in shelling leaving behind a grieving husband.

The bay girl was 3 months old. Had been born into a country about to be invaded.

Absolutely sickening. 3 months old for god's sake.

If you think I don't know this you couldn't be more wrong and like any murder inquiry there has to be an examination of the circumstances to find the motive and with that knowledge to try to ensure it is not repeated. This was started in 2014.

[glosterred]

If people could leave the politcal point scoring to one side. A baby girl and mother has died in shelling leaving behind a grieving husband.

The bay girl was 3 months old. Had been born into a country about to be invaded.

Absolutely sickening. 3 months old for god's sake.

If you think I don't know this you couldn't be more wrong and like any murder inquiry there has to be an examination of the circumstances to find the motive and with that knowledge to try to ensure it is not repeated. This was started in 2014.

And the political points scoring continues

[SydneyRover]

you should take a stroll through your own back catalogue G

[glosterred]

you should take a stroll through your own back catalogue G

There is no bigger political points scorer on this forum than you. So if the cap fits wear it

[SydneyRover]

As the evidence grows the complaints start about making it political like night follows day.

[TheDonnyPop]

This is not about what Cobyn or Starmer would / would have done. This is about what is happening right now.

Men, women, eldery, children, families are losing their places of work, schools, homes, neighbourhoods, their lives are being ripped apart. And these are the lucky ones.

I have never lived in the fear of a conflict like this. I cant begin to imagine what these poor people are going through, the horrible pictures and videos. Imagine if that was your street, or an office block where you work or the road you drive everyday littered with destoryed tanks. Or having to pack yours and your family belongings in a bag on your back and flee your home. Many of these men having to kiss goodbye to their loved ones and return to flight for freedom knowing they will probably never see their families again.

Thousands of lives on both sides of the conflict have been avoidably lost. Russians have lost their sons, brothers, dads and mates. All for what?

Take a look at yourself and think about what you are posting here. This is not about tory v labor or political point scoring.

[BillyStubbsTears]

A tragedy like this should never about political point scoring (although that didn't stop Johnson in that disgusting speech a couple of weeks back).

But that absolutely doesn't mean that you don't reflect on political.lessons.

It's a crying shame that holding politicians to account is automatically translated by some as scoring points.

[TheDonnyPop]

Did you mean to write should or shouldnt there billy?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Did you mean to write should or shouldnt there billy?

My mistake. Thanks for the heads up. Corrected now.

[TheDonnyPop]

So in the same sentence you say they shouldnt be point scoring and try to score points.

I give up.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So in the same sentence you say they shouldnt be point scoring and try to score points.

I give up.

No. I say you shouldn't play point scoring but you should hold politicians to account.

It is not point scoring to point out that Johnson was engaging in some of the most disgusting political point scoring I've ever seen when he compared Ukrainians giving their lives to people voting for Brexit. It is holding politicians to account.

I would criticise any politician of any party that engaged in shit like that. I assume you would too?

[danumdon]

So in the same sentence you say they shouldnt be point scoring and try to score points.

I give up.

No. I say you shouldn't play point scoring but you should hold politicians to account.

It is not point scoring to point out that Johnson was engaging in some of the most disgusting political point scoring I've ever seen when he compared Ukrainians giving their lives to people voting for Brexit. It is holding politicians to account.

I would criticise any politician of any party that engaged in shit like that. I assume you would too?

I can't remember BST so if you could help,

Did you criticize Blair and his awful cronies for his "weapons of mass destruction" diatribe.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've said often enough that I left the Labour party and voted against Labour in 2005 DD.

Happy?

[danumdon]

Always.

[SydneyRover]

''The German vice-chancellor says it was a mistake that his country didn't support Ukraine militarily much earlier.

In an interview with German public service broadcaster Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen, Robert Habeck says the support should have started years ago.

“We certainly should have supported Ukraine militarily much earlier, and I'm not just talking about days or weeks, but years," he says.''

The German vice-chancellor says it was a mistake that his country didn't support Ukraine militarily much earlier.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-61185469

Good to see a politician accept reality.

[Bristol Red Rover]

You may well interpret that as being what he meant. But it isn't what he wrote. He said one "tactical" weapon WOULD kill hundreds of thousands. And one "nuclear" bomb would kill several million. No context. No separation of "tactical" and "strategic". It's his usual slapdash of half thought out ideas that he writes for a Morning Star readership that will lap it up uncritically.

I shouldn't need to say this but of course I'm not minimising the horror of nuclear weapons. The point is that this is typical of Corbyn's quality of thought and writing.

The idiotic comments about the supposed failing of the UN, and the idea that Putin would just say "yeah let's talk" in any way that wouldn't mean the destruction of Ukraine as an independent nation are classic additional examples. As is the total disregard of what would have happened had Ukraine not been armed to repulse the invasion. Occupation of Kiev. Installation of a puppet Govt. Jumping to the Kremlin's commands.

I think you choose to interpret what Corbyn said in your way. It's not rocket science

Yep, they do have a puppet government. And they did before. That is the problem, whichever way they go they are stuffed. There has been a long time to engage diplomatically and create a situation that was just enough for both sides. The west simply ploughed in as per usual, and Russia did the same. I think that is not a successful way forwards for anyone, especially the Ikraine.

[Bristol Red Rover]

''The German vice-chancellor says it was a mistake that his country didn't support Ukraine militarily much earlier.

In an interview with German public service broadcaster Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen, Robert Habeck says the support should have started years ago.

“We certainly should have supported Ukraine militarily much earlier, and I'm not just talking about days or weeks, but years," he says.''

The German vice-chancellor says it was a mistake that his country didn't support Ukraine militarily much earlier.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-61185469

Good to see a politician accept reality.

Hindsight politics, eh?

Too many ifs and assumptions in that to be near "reality". Who knows what would have happened with more military being fed into the brewing crisis at an earlier date. And to think that there hasn't been military feeding in there anyway is naiive.

[drfchound]

''The German vice-chancellor says it was a mistake that his country didn't support Ukraine militarily much earlier.

In an interview with German public service broadcaster Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen, Robert Habeck says the support should have started years ago.

“We certainly should have supported Ukraine militarily much earlier, and I'm not just talking about days or weeks, but years," he says.''

The German vice-chancellor says it was a mistake that his country didn't support Ukraine militarily much earlier.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-61185469

Good to see a politician accept reality.

Hindsight politics, eh?

Too many ifs and assumptions in that to be near "reality". Who knows what would have happened with more military being fed into the brewing crisis at an earlier date. And to think that there hasn't been military feeding in there anyway is naiive.

If Syd had been a German would he have been slagging off their government rather than praising them ?