Ukraine

[Filo]

The recruitment has stopped because no convicts are volunteering.

No convicts are volunteering because word has got back that Wagner is using convicts as front line cannon fodder.

And bashing their heads in with a sledgehammer

[BobG]

The other, exceedingly interesting point I took from Billy's link is so many organisations giving us all clickbait whilst appearing to give balanced news. Whilst this list is mine step forwards the Mail, the Express, the Mirror and every tv news station except Channel 4.

BobG

[ravenrover]

Reading today that Wagner group are using conscriots and released prisoners in suicidal attacks. It applies both ways to be suicidal whether they attack or don't and yes BRR this in a western media report

Also hearing that the number of “volunteers” from prison to the Wagner group is reducing as word gets back to the life expectancy of “volunteers” isn’t great

They have already stopped recruiting prisoners.

Recruiting? Did they have an option?

Yes, they could have recruited more.

Do you really believe the ones they "recruited" had a choice?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've been hearing for over a week now that Russia had started a massive attack on the eastern front. But it seems that nothing has changed, other than them throwing more bodies into their mini Passchendaele at Bakhmut. Am I missing something?

[Bristol Red Rover]

This is superb analysis from one of the best thinker's on the Ukraine situation.

https://snyder.substack.com/p/nuclear-war?r=f9j4c&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

I've only just read the article you linked Billy. For anyone with an interest, you may not agree with some, or indeed all, of it, but it does provide much food for thought. Given the positions taken by our resident apologist, I did rather smile at this couple of lines:

"Each defeat generates stories about how Russia was not actually defeated.  That is worth noting.  The escalation one actually sees is narrative.  It takes more and more work for Russians to explain defeat as victory.  But so far they have been up to the task."

BobG

I'm intrigued as to what general or specific point you're making over what specific incidents?

[BillyStubbsTears]

At a guess BRR, it's points like how Putin's propaganda paints the rout in Kharkhiv as an "orderly strategic withdrawal" done as a matter of choice.

[Bristol Red Rover]

At a guess BRR, it's points like how Putin's propaganda paints the rout in Kharkhiv as an "orderly strategic withdrawal" done as a matter of choice.

No, they were clearly outnumbered and would have been smashed if they tried to hold that ground, so they withdrew whilst it seems trying to hold onto one or two places like Izyum I think it was. Fairly quickly they were forced to withdraw from there too. The line they ultimately fell back to was supported by a few of the new troops, and latterly more have been stationed there where you can see recent gradual advancements.

To have stood and fought would have meant large scale losses, hence it was a withdrawal that did save Russian lives.

Substantial troops have reinforced all along the front, whilst the bulk are in reserve, reportedly, mainly by Western sources, for a large scale offensive. Those sources have been saying that is likely to be from the North somewhere east of Kyiv.

[ravenrover]

So that would be from Belarus then?

[Filo]

Putin too scared to fly in case he gets killed, but not too scared to send thousands of his own people to die, he’s a coward!

[BillyStubbsTears]

You're a strange one BRR.

Russian forces being routed and fleeing the front en masse, taking huge casualties and leaving massive amounts of hardware behind is a successful, planned, strategic withdrawal.

Russia losing hundreds of men a day to inch a little way down the streets of Bakhmut is (what did you call it recently) something like "Russian advancing along the majority of the frontline"

You DO realise how disconnected from reality this makes you seem? Last autumn, even the aggressive Putin cheerleaders on Russian state TV were calling the defeats in Kharkiv and Kherson unmitigated disasters.

[Bristol Red Rover]

So that would be from Belarus then?

Could be though that would be West of Kyiv. Probs more likely, according to Western reports, to be further east.

[Bristol Red Rover]

You're a strange one BRR.

Russian forces being routed and fleeing the front en masse, taking huge casualties and leaving massive amounts of hardware behind is a successful, planned, strategic withdrawal.

Russia losing hundreds of men a day to inch a little way down the streets of Bakhmut is (what did you call it recently) something like "Russian advancing along the majority of the frontline"

You DO realise how disconnected from reality this makes you seem? Last autumn, even the aggressive Putin cheerleaders on Russian state TV were calling the defeats in Kharkiv and Kherson unmitigated disasters.

Strategic (your word here) following the build up of Ukraine forces and subsequent attack from them. Made the best of the situation. No idea what your point is bar being wholly based on pro Ukraine propaganda? How many tanks, how many troops did Russia lose? What were the Ukraine losses in that offensive?

Russia has lost a fair amount in advancing west in recent months. How much has Ukraine lost? Its not just Bakhmut.

Where do you get your battlefield info from?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here's a thought. Why not stop prefacing every post to someone who disagrees with you with "Western/Ukraine propaganda" slurs, when you have precisely NO knowledge of where I get my information from? Why don't you back up your claims, or critique other people's claims with evidence, instead of this childish "Ner, ner, Western propaganda" b*llocks. You might make something of yourself.

So. Russia hasn't advanced ANYWHERE more than a few street blocks in the past 6 months. Unless you have evidence that they have, which is being systematically suppressed by everyone else. Show us your sources.


And "Made the best of the situation". You can apply that logic to ANY rout. Dunkirk? Best of a bad job. Surrender at Stalingrad? That was a strategic surrender to prevent massacre. Best of a bad situation. The fact is that over a few short weeks in Autumn, the Russian forces were routed out of more than a third of the land area that they had taken since February. They didn't do that by choice. They did it because they could not hold the land in the face of the attacks.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And you never, ever engage with the battlefield reality that caused those frontline collapses. They didn't happen through face to face conflict, with Ukraine taking as many losses in men and materiel as Russia. The fact you assume that's what happened shows how deeply ignorant you are of the battlefield situation.

Ukrainian forces made holding on to the land impossible for the Russians, not by head-on attacks, but by using accurate, long range West-supplued artillery to degrade the Russian supply lines. They made it impossible for Russia to hold large munitions dumps within 50km of the front, becase any that were within range of the HIMARS and the like were taken out.

And that fact hasn't changed. If Russia is stupid enough to try yet another massed attack, it will be defeated in exactly the same way; by starving it of supplies.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Rape as a weapon.

Systemic torture of prisoners

Mass deportation of kids to Russia.

Now this.

https://twitter.com/OlenaHalushka/status/1626646636872011796?s=20

Anyone wondering why Putin has to be stopped is wilfully blind. They are f**king barbarians.

[BillyStubbsTears]

One of the most chilling lines that John LeCarre out into George Smiley's mouth was this, about his time in Germany in the 1930s.

"I saw them burning books. I knew then it wouldn't be long before they were burning people."

This is a statement of intent that follows straight from Putin's bestial ramblings about Ukraine having no historical right to exist except as a part of Mother Russia.

[BobG]

If that photo is genuine then Russia, it's leadership and its morals all need urgent overthrow. It's not shameful. It's bestial.

BobG

[ncRover]

Imagine we were all Russian and this thread was in Russia, BRR. And you were sticking up for the West like you do with Russia. You’d be thrown in jail. But here in the west you are free to say what you like on the matter.

[i_ateallthepies]

I doubt they would waste a jail cell on him, ncRover.  They certainly would throw him somewhere, probably out of a sixth-floor window.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Imagine we were all Russian and this thread was in Russia, BRR. And you were sticking up for the West like you do with Russia. You’d be thrown in jail. But here in the west you are free to say what you like on the matter.

What a bizarre argument, tho exactly what some will say. Helpful to think about this, and consider how free people are in Ukraine to speak. The ones strapped to lampposts,  the ones now disappeared. And then, BSTs mention of book burning. Where do you think that's been happening?

I can only assume you are making a reasoned argument relevant to Ukraine, and appreciate that you excuse western supporting Ukraine's from book burning and strapping folks to lamposts even before the Russian invasion. Therefore you must be referring to Russian troops heading over to the UK? If not please explain.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Rape as a weapon.

Systemic torture of prisoners

Mass deportation of kids to Russia.

Now this.

https://twitter.com/OlenaHalushka/status/1626646636872011796?s=20

Anyone wondering why Putin has to be stopped is wilfully blind. They are f**king barbarians.

So,  no evidence of your propaganda BST. As I said, we have seen lots of Ukraine burning of Russian books. Go on....

[Bristol Red Rover]

If that photo is genuine then Russia, it's leadership and its morals all need urgent overthrow. It's not shameful. It's bestial.

BobG

You've not seen the burning of Russian books then?

[Bristol Red Rover]

 

Here's a thought. Why not stop prefacing every post to someone who disagrees with you with "Western/Ukraine propaganda" slurs, when you have precisely NO knowledge of where I get my information from? Why don't you back up your claims, or critique other people's claims with evidence, instead of this childish "Ner, ner, Western propaganda" b*llocks. You might make something of yourself.

So. Russia hasn't advanced ANYWHERE more than a few street blocks in the past 6 months. Unless you have evidence that they have, which is being systematically suppressed by everyone else. Show us your sources.


And "Made the best of the situation". You can apply that logic to ANY rout. Dunkirk? Best of a bad job. Surrender at Stalingrad? That was a strategic surrender to prevent massacre. Best of a bad situation. The fact is that over a few short weeks in Autumn, the Russian forces were routed out of more than a third of the land area that they had taken since February. They didn't do that by choice. They did it because they could not hold the land in the face of the attacks.

I asked you where you get your info from and you come back with that reply? Jeeez....

[BillyStubbsTears]

BRR.

Give us the source of your claim of Ukrainian burning of Russian books.

[BobG]

Yes. Please do. I've seen absolutely nothing about that. Nada.

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

https://mobile.twitter.com/flamuchz/status/1627611138232840192

Daft t**ts.

[Dutch Uncle]

Taking 2000 ventilators to Scunthorpe again?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Context - Ukraine has about 50% of people speaking solely or mostly Ukraine. It has 30% speaking soley or mostly Russian according to one source. Wiki says from a poll in 2005 36% spoke mainly Russian at home, with a further 22% speaking Russian and Ukrainian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language_in_Ukraine#2001_Census
The point being Russian is a very significant language in Ukraine as a whole. However that is predominantly in the south and east - though not just the Donbas and Crimea.

Pro Ukraine NBC reporter's tweet showing book burning - or the prep of.
https://twitter.com/RichardEngel/status/1500815037589504009

De-Russification - Ukraine banning various Russian books and music at various levels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_book_ban_in_Ukraine
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/20/ukraine-restricts-russian-books-and-music-in-latest-step-of-derussification
Removing Russian language books including childrens, romance, detectives.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/06/15/ooyj-j15.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derussification_in_Ukraine#2022

Law on stopping children of Russian speakers being taught in Russian.
https://www.fairplanet.org/editors-pick/schools-in-ukraine-scrap-russian-language-from-their-curricula/

So, not much evidence of actual burning - I have seen vids and pics of this in the Donbas 2014 onwards. But then there is a state wide poilcy of book banning and removal and dumping - which amounts to the same. Reasons given are "propaganda". On the other hand there have been Ukraine books being burnt, the reason given there is the same, propaganda -  in that case mainly the Nazi Ukraine literature.

So it's a bit of both, not one sided - not that BST likes that, obviously being protective of his one side policy, in this case the Ukraine Nazi's. I'd argue that there is misinformation on both sides, and then there is an acceptance of certain narratives on both sides, some of which is well dodgy, but should those books be burnt/dumped/banned?

[Bristol Red Rover]

One of the most chilling lines that John LeCarre out into George Smiley's mouth was this, about his time in Germany in the 1930s.

"I saw them burning books. I knew then it wouldn't be long before they were burning people."

This is a statement of intent that follows straight from Putin's bestial ramblings about Ukraine having no historical right to exist except as a part of Mother Russia.

Putin has said he will burn Ukrainian books and then Ukrainian people?

[BillyStubbsTears]

So you've not seen the burning of Russian books then. Glad we sorted that.