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Author Topic: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson  (Read 75904 times)

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BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #690 on April 13, 2022, 02:39:27 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
BB
Why on earth would you come on this thread throwing complaints about what other people think, but not be prepared to state what you think?

Oh yeah! Sorry, I remember. You're not interested in discussion. You only ever want an argument.

Dead simple question. Do you think he should resign?



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Glyn_Wigley

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #691 on April 13, 2022, 02:39:58 pm by Glyn_Wigley »
I see the Professor for Arguing The Toss is back firing on all cylinders.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #692 on April 13, 2022, 02:41:32 pm by Bentley Bullet »
BB
Why on earth would you come on this thread throwing complaints about what other people think, but not be prepared to state what you think?

Oh yeah! Sorry, I remember. You're not interested in discussion. You only ever want an argument.

Dead simple question. Do you think he should resign?
Answer the f**king question man!

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #693 on April 13, 2022, 02:53:28 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
I don't think any senior Labour Cabinet Minister has ever been found guilty of breaking a law.

I think there are other things done by Labour leaders that demanded their resignation. That's why I left the Labour party and refused to vote for them while Blair was PM after the Iraq invasion.

But that was a policy issue. The point about Johnson is different and unique. He has unarguably broken a law. He's unarguably and repeatedly lied about it in Parliament.

I ask one last time. Do you think he should resign?

glosterred

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #694 on April 13, 2022, 03:04:10 pm by glosterred »
Well, Boris isn’t the first PM to get a fine is he




And here's a perfect example of someone scratting around to try to provide faux-balance. Quite sad to observe really.

Sad maybe but I learnt it from those on here that do exactly the same whenever some one attacks Labour.



Bentley Bullet

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #695 on April 13, 2022, 03:29:55 pm by Bentley Bullet »
I don't think any senior Labour Cabinet Minister has ever been found guilty of breaking a law.

I think there are other things done by Labour leaders that demanded their resignation. That's why I left the Labour party and refused to vote for them while Blair was PM after the Iraq invasion.

But that was a policy issue. The point about Johnson is different and unique. He has unarguably broken a law. He's unarguably and repeatedly lied about it in Parliament.

I ask one last time. Do you think he should resign?
Thanks. That answers my question that a Labour party PM has done far FAR worse deeds than attending an illegal party.

Now I'll answer your question. Johnson was the subject of a surprise presentation for his birthday, where colleagues passed on their best wishes. He said it did not occur to him that this might have been a breach of the rules. He respects the outcome of the police investigation and admits that on reflection it was a mistake. Perhaps there is a case for him to resign, and perhaps there is a case for him not to. Maybe the view of some of his colleagues that he should stay put makes sense, under the circumstances.

Either way, I know your insistence that he should resign is based purely on your blatant political bias, hence your bending over backwards to defend Starmer standing in a window supping beer in what more or less amounts to the same thing.

Ldr

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #696 on April 13, 2022, 03:43:47 pm by Ldr »
Ah, you mean like your only contribution to a topic is to directly attack Boris Johnson or the Tory party in general? Does this mean you don't even respect yourself?

If you think that refusing to criticise the only PM in history who set a law, repeatedly exhorted us to follow it, broke it repeatedly in the middle of a national emergency, lied about it repeatedly then was found guilty is something to be proud of, then you are one of the reasons why our political system is so f**ked.

Of course you DO think Johnson was wrong to do all those things. I get that. But you can't bring yourself to say it, so you have a go at people who do instead. Which is a very good example of why you don't deserve to be respected.

Of course, Johnson was wrong. He himself has admitted he was. The problem I have with it is people who, like you, go on and on and on and on and on and on about it because you have got absolutely f**k all other ways to support your beloved Labour party other than to say how bad the Tories are.

Don't you think your beloved Labour party has done worse things in the past than have illegal parties? No? Then THAT'S why our political system is f**ked.

Simple, direct question.

When a PM is found to have broken a law that he himself brought in, a law that was designed to limit the effect of an epidemic that was killing 1250 people a day at its worst, should he resign?

Yes or no?

Unequivocally yes

glosterred

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #697 on April 13, 2022, 03:58:25 pm by glosterred »
Saw this on Twitter and it sums up many a thread on this forum and this one in particular

Every single one of us is more lenient and willing to overlook foibles and transgressions of our own political 'side' than the other. Am surprised anyone thinks otherwise to be honest



normal rules

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #698 on April 13, 2022, 04:03:10 pm by normal rules »
It’s hard to see how Johnson’s position is tenable any more.
The public perception of what has happened vs reality is simply tipped way too far into   The Unacceptable.
He will step aside before the next GE. I can’t see him wanting to stick around and face the consequences of any Tory failure at his hands.

And before anyone jumps down my throat re my comment about perception, I’ve asked myself this before posting:
How many people would have been working in 10 Downing st on the day of this birthday party. 10? 50? 100? More?
That, we will never know. 10 Downing st is not a huge cavernous space where even a couple of dozen people can go about their business without coming into Contact with each other. And I would imagine it was quite a busy place at that time.
So social distancing would have been problematic, if not impossible. The rule at the time was no more than two indoors. If anyone thinks Downing st would be operating with this rule at any time during the pandemic, then they are quite frankly crackers. This adds context to me. Which the general public simply don’t take into consideration. Especially if you are looking to point the finger and nail people to masts.
Forgetting political allegiances, this is a place where the PM, any PM, lives and works.
To be in an office with others discussing a global pandemic, as they would have been , and then to walk into another where a supposed surprise birthday event is being held for the PM is probably where they were at with this.
Broke the law? Yes, to the letter. But with levels of mitigation. Was it a bad decision. Certainly. Did they set out to piss off the general public, most probably not.
Were they in an environment already where the law was probably being broken every hour of every day during their normal working protocol. Highly likely.
Is Downing Street afforded any sort of special discompensation for what goes on in there. Obviously not, in many peoples eyes.
Workers in the public sector went about their business during the pandemic in close contact with tens of thousands of people on a daily basis. Because doing their job was more important than keeping themselves safe. Doctors, nurses, fire service, police.
Govt officials discussing a global pandemic together was important too. Partying afterwards wasn’t. But they would have been in close contact throughout all of this.
The word “party” has sent this whole thing into a shitstorm. Had it been “cabinet officials gather for and end of day cup of tea “ I can’t imagine people would be foaming at the mouth about it like they are now.
The subsequent attempted cover up and blithering is where the real damage has been done though. I would have had more respect for them if they just came out and owned it from the off. Put hand up and said it how it is, and why.
I’m not excusing what has happened. Just adding my rationale. And some context.
Something the MSM don’t do very often.

And before anyone asks me, I really don’t care if he resigns or not. If he does he will be replaced. If he steps down, he will be replaced.



BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #699 on April 13, 2022, 04:21:57 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
BB

You haven't come remotely close to answering my question. I asked what YOUR opinion was, not what the Tory party line was.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #700 on April 13, 2022, 04:26:14 pm by Bentley Bullet »
For what my opinion is worth, I think he should not resign.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #701 on April 13, 2022, 04:27:13 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
Saw this on Twitter and it sums up many a thread on this forum and this one in particular

Every single one of us is more lenient and willing to overlook foibles and transgressions of our own political 'side' than the other. Am surprised anyone thinks otherwise to be honest




And THIS is precisely what I was saying earlier. This is the normalisation of previously unacceptable behaviour by the line "well the other side wouldn't be any better."


There's a massive elephant in the room for anyone who subscribes to that opinion. The other side HASN'T done anything remotely like this. No PM of any party in our entire history has ever passed a law aimed at protecting lives in a medical crisis, then broken that law, then repeatedly lied about breaking that law, then been found guilty of breaking the law, and accepted that guilty verdict and not resigned.

If a Labour PM had ever done a quarter of that, I would be screaming for them to resign.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #702 on April 13, 2022, 04:29:01 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
For what my opinion is worth, I think he should not resign.

Well that took some wringing out of you. But at least we have it on record that a PM can break the law and lie to Parliament about breaking the law and you still think he should be PM. Thanks. I'll keep that in mind if you ever contribute on related issues in future.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #703 on April 13, 2022, 04:32:11 pm by Bentley Bullet »
Saw this on Twitter and it sums up many a thread on this forum and this one in particular

Every single one of us is more lenient and willing to overlook foibles and transgressions of our own political 'side' than the other. Am surprised anyone thinks otherwise to be honest




And THIS is precisely what I was saying earlier. This is the normalisation of previously unacceptable behaviour by the line "well the other side wouldn't be any better."


There's a massive elephant in the room for anyone who subscribes to that opinion. The other side HASN'T done anything remotely like this. No PM of any party in our entire history has ever passed a law aimed at protecting lives in a medical crisis, then broken that law, then repeatedly lied about breaking that law, then been found guilty of breaking the law, and accepted that guilty verdict and not resigned.

If a Labour PM had ever done a quarter of that, I would be screaming for them to resign.

So, boozing in full view of the public through a window during restrictions was not even a quarter of receiving a cake on your birthday?

You're taking the piss, just as much as Starmer was.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #704 on April 13, 2022, 04:35:07 pm by Bentley Bullet »
For what my opinion is worth, I think he should not resign.

Well that took some wringing out of you. But at least we have it on record that a PM can break the law and lie to Parliament about breaking the law and you still think he should be PM. Thanks. I'll keep that in mind if you ever contribute on related issues in future.

We! Always makes me giggle, that. Like I'm supposed to feel threatened by your little handful of disciples!

Yep, still think Boris represents democracy more than Starmer does.

wilts rover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #705 on April 13, 2022, 04:48:10 pm by wilts rover »
Saw this on Twitter and it sums up many a thread on this forum and this one in particular

Every single one of us is more lenient and willing to overlook foibles and transgressions of our own political 'side' than the other. Am surprised anyone thinks otherwise to be honest




Not true at all. There are several prominent Tory's on here who have no problem in criticising criminal actions by their own leader - and fair play to all of them.

The radio is full of people who say they have voted Tory all their life - and never will again - or at least as long as Johnson is leader.

Some of their more prominent critics of Starmer are Labour supporters. Just as those of Corbyn were too.

Johnson is a different kind of leader - a man with no principles, political or otherwise, who wants power purely for the sake of having power and will do whatever it takes to hang onto it. He attracts likeminded disciples. As you can see on this thread.

wilts rover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #706 on April 13, 2022, 04:59:56 pm by wilts rover »
"Ultimately, this controversy is about two questions: should a prime minister obey the laws that he imposes on others; and is it acceptable for a prime minister to mislead parliament?"

If Conservative MPs choose to keep the prime minister in power, they will be declaring that following the law and telling the truth are no longer important:

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/why-johnson-must-be-removed-fines-partygate-lockdown

drfchound

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #707 on April 13, 2022, 06:00:07 pm by drfchound »
Saw this on Twitter and it sums up many a thread on this forum and this one in particular

Every single one of us is more lenient and willing to overlook foibles and transgressions of our own political 'side' than the other. Am surprised anyone thinks otherwise to be honest




Not true at all. There are several prominent Tory's on here who have no problem in criticising criminal actions by their own leader - and fair play to all of them.

The radio is full of people who say they have voted Tory all their life - and never will again - or at least as long as Johnson is leader.

Some of their more prominent critics of Starmer are Labour supporters. Just as those of Corbyn were too.

Johnson is a different kind of leader - a man with no principles, political or otherwise, who wants power purely for the sake of having power and will do whatever it takes to hang onto it. He attracts likeminded disciples. As you can see on this thread.

Hi wilts.
I am curious about who you see as prominent Tory’s on the forum.

rich1471

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #708 on April 13, 2022, 06:34:07 pm by rich1471 »
Ah, you mean like your only contribution to a topic is to directly attack Boris Johnson or the Tory party in general? Does this mean you don't even respect yourself?

If you think that refusing to criticise the only PM in history who set a law, repeatedly exhorted us to follow it, broke it repeatedly in the middle of a national emergency, lied about it repeatedly then was found guilty is something to be proud of, then you are one of the reasons why our political system is so f**ked.

Of course you DO think Johnson was wrong to do all those things. I get that. But you can't bring yourself to say it, so you have a go at people who do instead. Which is a very good example of why you don't deserve to be respected.

Of course, Johnson was wrong. He himself has admitted he was. The problem I have with it is people who, like you, go on and on and on and on and on and on about it because you have got absolutely f**k all other ways to support your beloved Labour party other than to say how bad the Tories are.

Don't you think your beloved Labour party has done worse things in the past than have illegal parties? No? Then THAT'S why our political system is f**ked.

Simple, direct question.

When a PM is found to have broken a law that he himself brought in, a law that was designed to limit the effect of an epidemic that was killing 1250 people a day at its worst, should he resign?

Yes or no?

He should resign because of the whole of the party stuff, that's obvious.  Ironically though the one he's been fined for (so far) probably is negligible because it is true that many did things like that in their workplaces at times and it's pretty minor. The other stuff, absolutely not and I hope they pull him up on it.

As for your point on Ukraine, he's led well on that imo, but that doesn't excuse the things that went on around his property and the lies that followed.
when I worked in lockdown at a restaurant the police and council COVID wardens were always around checking up on what was going on ,The police stand outside number 10 ,what did they think they were doing when someone turns up with snacks and beer ,doing a tombola,There could be more fines on the way for the boris

River Don

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #709 on April 13, 2022, 06:34:07 pm by River Don »
Ultimately the Police decided they needed to investigate the No10 parties, despite at first being highly resistant to it.

No doubt there will have been complaints made against Starmer after the beer photo emerged. The Police have decided there is no need to investigate.

Now in the opinion of the Police, at least one of the No10 parties broke the law and they have sanctioned those involved. That is it. This isn't a matter of political opinion. The police have guidelines and the law has been broken.

I can't see there is any debate to be had.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #710 on April 13, 2022, 06:46:37 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
You're wasting your time RD. He's beyond talking to. He's obsessed with the idea that, because Starmer once slipped up in an angry exchange in the House, said something wrong and corrected it shortly after, he's a liar just like Johnson is.

Actually,vi suspect he doesn't really believe that, but he needs to claim he does just so he can make his point in here. Either way, he's beyond reasoning with. One day I'll stop biting.

big fat yorkshire pudding

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #711 on April 13, 2022, 07:01:37 pm by big fat yorkshire pudding »
You're wasting your time RD. He's beyond talking to. He's obsessed with the idea that, because Starmer once slipped up in an angry exchange in the House, said something wrong and corrected it shortly after, he's a liar just like Johnson is.

Actually,vi suspect he doesn't really believe that, but he needs to claim he does just so he can make his point in here. Either way, he's beyond reasoning with. One day I'll stop biting.

I think personally there are much better and worse people on all sides of politics than Johnson.

River Don

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #712 on April 13, 2022, 07:06:40 pm by River Don »
You're wasting your time RD. He's beyond talking to. He's obsessed with the idea that, because Starmer once slipped up in an angry exchange in the House, said something wrong and corrected it shortly after, he's a liar just like Johnson is.

Actually,vi suspect he doesn't really believe that, but he needs to claim he does just so he can make his point in here. Either way, he's beyond reasoning with. One day I'll stop biting.

I think personally there are much better and worse people on all sides of politics than Johnson.

There Will be worse. On the scale overall I think there will be many more better. That's because Johnson has a long and well documented history of being economical with the truth, sadly.

Johnson does have many good traits, he's persuasive, his humour, I think he does have leadership qualities but he continually lets himself down. It's a great shame really.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #713 on April 13, 2022, 07:08:10 pm by Bentley Bullet »
You're wasting your time RD. He's beyond talking to. He's obsessed with the idea that, because Starmer once slipped up in an angry exchange in the House, said something wrong and corrected it shortly after, he's a liar just like Johnson is.

Actually,vi suspect he doesn't really believe that, but he needs to claim he does just so he can make his point in here. Either way, he's beyond reasoning with. One day I'll stop biting.

https://novaramedia.com/2021/09/29/keir-starmer-is-just-as-dishonest-as-boris-johnson/

wilts rover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #714 on April 13, 2022, 07:08:56 pm by wilts rover »
Saw this on Twitter and it sums up many a thread on this forum and this one in particular

Every single one of us is more lenient and willing to overlook foibles and transgressions of our own political 'side' than the other. Am surprised anyone thinks otherwise to be honest




Not true at all. There are several prominent Tory's on here who have no problem in criticising criminal actions by their own leader - and fair play to all of them.

The radio is full of people who say they have voted Tory all their life - and never will again - or at least as long as Johnson is leader.

Some of their more prominent critics of Starmer are Labour supporters. Just as those of Corbyn were too.

Johnson is a different kind of leader - a man with no principles, political or otherwise, who wants power purely for the sake of having power and will do whatever it takes to hang onto it. He attracts likeminded disciples. As you can see on this thread.

Hi wilts.
I am curious about who you see as prominent Tory’s on the forum.


I dont want to embarrass people by naming names hound but you know as well as me who has stated they are a Tory supporter and which of them has criticised Johnson. One of the most prominent Johnson critics has even said they are a party member - so proper kudos to them.

So it's people who have definately said they vote Tory. That's all I am saying.

wilts rover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #715 on April 13, 2022, 07:13:58 pm by wilts rover »
You're wasting your time RD. He's beyond talking to. He's obsessed with the idea that, because Starmer once slipped up in an angry exchange in the House, said something wrong and corrected it shortly after, he's a liar just like Johnson is.

Actually,vi suspect he doesn't really believe that, but he needs to claim he does just so he can make his point in here. Either way, he's beyond reasoning with. One day I'll stop biting.

https://novaramedia.com/2021/09/29/keir-starmer-is-just-as-dishonest-as-boris-johnson/

Thanks BB for providing evidence to what I said in my reply to Glosterred above - some of Starmer's most prominent critics are in the Labour Party. Or were until he threw them out/they resigned.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #716 on April 13, 2022, 07:17:12 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
You're wasting your time RD. He's beyond talking to. He's obsessed with the idea that, because Starmer once slipped up in an angry exchange in the House, said something wrong and corrected it shortly after, he's a liar just like Johnson is.

Actually,vi suspect he doesn't really believe that, but he needs to claim he does just so he can make his point in here. Either way, he's beyond reasoning with. One day I'll stop biting.

https://novaramedia.com/2021/09/29/keir-starmer-is-just-as-dishonest-as-boris-johnson/

You haven't actually read that have you? And I assume you've no idea how much of a vendetta Aaron Bastani has for Starmer, Bastani being Corbyn's young Twitter attack dog.

You are truly making yourself look stupid here BB by suggesting, as Bastani wants you to believe, that there's some kind of equality between lying on matters of objective truth, and changing policies in a way that certain groups of people don't like.

If you genuinely don't get how dangerous Johnson's abuse if objective truth is, and how unique it is in our politics, you really should be ashamed of yourself.

idler

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #717 on April 13, 2022, 07:21:32 pm by idler »
Well the Justice Minister has resigned.
That says a lot about what he thinks of Bojo.

River Don

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #718 on April 13, 2022, 07:25:55 pm by River Don »
Well the Justice Minister has resigned.
That says a lot about what he thinks of Bojo.

Ooofff, he's the second justice minister to walk. That's a blow.

I wonder if things might start unraveling now.

i_ateallthepies

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #719 on April 13, 2022, 07:43:10 pm by i_ateallthepies »
Well the Justice Minister has resigned.
That says a lot about what he thinks of Bojo.

Ooofff, he's the second justice minister to walk. That's a blow.

I wonder if things might start unraveling now.

How many false dawns like this has there been?  It all just washes of Johnson because he doesn't have a principled bone in his body.

 

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