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Author Topic: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson  (Read 75884 times)

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Ldr

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #900 on May 20, 2022, 04:39:46 pm by Ldr »
Until recent years that's always been true LDR. It always used to be said that 'Hard cases make bad law'. But we've seen several instances of public emotion driving political action more lately. I'm not making any political point here either. It's true of all major parties. But reactive legislation, clearly driven by public emotion and the seeking after votes is unlikely to lead to happy long term outcomes.

BobG

Nail on head Bob, society seems to have become too concerned with feelings over facts



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BobG

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #901 on May 20, 2022, 04:47:25 pm by BobG »
Too bloody right LDR. Too much touchy feely in the world these days for me and for good government.

If we could all take a bit of time to think about where, where would 'government by reaction' lead us? It would minimise the role of policy; it would create anachronisms all over the place; it would lead to groups really shouting that they had been disadvantaged by a previous reaction thus leading to ever more complex and cumbersome laws to delight the legal profession.

It's an entirely stupid way to govern. Just like government by plebiscite and referendum is.

BobG

ravenrover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #902 on May 20, 2022, 04:52:50 pm by ravenrover »
So has Carrie Antoinette been fined £10k for organising the cake do in Downing St?
Only fair because others were fined for organising events and gatherings at the time.

Anyone smelling a rat with this Met enquiry yet?
See post #885

River Don

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #903 on May 20, 2022, 04:56:49 pm by River Don »
According to a Yougov poll, 52% of the public don't trust The Met investigation.


drfchound

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #904 on May 20, 2022, 05:16:32 pm by drfchound »
Perhaps the other 48% will try to overturn that.

River Don

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #905 on May 20, 2022, 05:17:53 pm by River Don »
Perhaps the other 48% will try to overturn that.

10% are don't knows.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #906 on May 20, 2022, 05:37:32 pm by Bentley Bullet »
I wonder what percentage of the country will trust The Durham Constabulary when they don't give Keir Starmer a fixed penalty fine?

BobG

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #907 on May 20, 2022, 06:33:15 pm by BobG »
We now have an opportunity to see government in action.

I decided to write to my MP this last Wednesday about something appalling I witnessed in an office in Medellin where a UK government appointed company takes personal biometric data and possession of the passport of anyone seeking a visa to enter the UK. Absolutely scandalous behaviour.

I got the standard automatic reply telling me that my MP is a busy bloke and he'll try to reply in the next month or so. But damn me, within 24 hours I got this:


Dear Mr Gilbert,

Sir Geoffrey has asked me to thank you for taking the time to write to him about the concerning events which have taken place in Medellin.  We are very sorry to read that Paola has been the victim of fraud.

In order to be of assistance with this matter, Sir Geoffrey will raise your correspondence with the Home Secretary, the Rt Hon Priti Patel MP, as the Secretary of State in charge of the Home Office, the department responsible for the issuing of UK visas, to request a review of the circumstances you describe and a full response.

Please rest assured that we will let you know just as soon as we are in receipt of a response.

We hope that this will prove helpful.

Yours sincerely,

 
Piers Baker,
Office of
 
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown F.R.I.C.S. M.P.
Member of Parliament for The Cotswolds


If you can translate political speak, that is some bloody reply! A reply inside 24 hours tells you a lot too.

The implications of what I saw are dreadful for individuals and potentially dreadful for the reputation of this country. But even with the latter in mind, I'm pretty impressed with the speed at which my local, Conservative, MP has reacted. The fact that I can now claim to have my correspondence on the desk of the Home Secretary of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is pretty impressive too! I'm agog to find out what happens.

BobG
« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 07:00:37 pm by BobG »

danumdon

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #908 on May 20, 2022, 07:01:05 pm by danumdon »

That's some rapidly expediated reply from your local MPs office, If we know anything about MS Patel you can guarantee a knock on your door from your local friendly constabulary any time soon.

River Don

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #909 on May 20, 2022, 07:06:22 pm by River Don »
I wonder what percentage of the country will trust The Durham Constabulary when they don't give Keir Starmer a fixed penalty fine?


There is no way Starmer is getting fined. His resignation would put the heat back on Johnson.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #910 on May 20, 2022, 07:56:24 pm by Bentley Bullet »
I wonder what percentage of the country will trust The Durham Constabulary when they don't give Keir Starmer a fixed penalty fine?


There is no way Starmer is getting fined. His resignation would put the heat back on Johnson.
Of course he isn't, and he knows it. He's used it to come over all decent and moral and honest but the only people he's convinced are those who didn't need convincing in the first place. Put it this way, supposing (hypothetically speaking because it won't happen) he was told he had broken the law but was not going to be fined. Why won't he be decent and moral enough to resign then?

River Don

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #911 on May 20, 2022, 08:09:57 pm by River Don »
I wonder what percentage of the country will trust The Durham Constabulary when they don't give Keir Starmer a fixed penalty fine?


There is no way Starmer is getting fined. His resignation would put the heat back on Johnson.
Of course he isn't, and he knows it. He's used it to come over all decent and moral and honest but the only people he's convinced are those who didn't need convincing in the first place. Put it this way, supposing (hypothetically speaking because it won't happen) he was told he had broken the law but was not going to be fined. Why won't he be decent and moral enough to resign then?

I think if he's found to have broken the law it's highly likely he'll resign.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #912 on May 20, 2022, 08:12:23 pm by Bentley Bullet »
I thought he said he wouldn't?

River Don

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #913 on May 20, 2022, 08:22:55 pm by River Don »
A bloke who has built his entire reputation on upholding the law can't hold on if he's broken the law.

As I understand it, unless he is issued with a fine then he hasn't broken the law.

BillyStubbsTears

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #914 on May 20, 2022, 08:32:03 pm by BillyStubbsTears »
According to a Yougov poll, 52% of the public don't trust The Met investigation.



Or, according to Nadine Dorries, 96% do support it.

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #915 on May 20, 2022, 08:37:47 pm by Bentley Bullet »
A bloke who has built his entire reputation on upholding the law can't hold on if he's broken the law.

As I understand it, unless he is issued with a fine then he hasn't broken the law.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/10/sir-keir-starmer-will-not-resign-beergate-broke-rules-isnt-fined/

scawsby steve

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #916 on May 20, 2022, 08:38:21 pm by scawsby steve »
Have I missed this Sajid Javids brother is Deputy assistant Commisioner at the Met.!!! Is Dick still in charge or is this chap acting as boss at the mo? Obvioualy no conspiracy theories can come from this?

I don't see how a Deputy Assistant Commissioner could act as Commissioner. There are two ranks directly above him, Assistant Commissioner, and Deputy Commissioner.

I believe it's the Deputy Commissioner who takes over when the Commissioner is unavailable, or when a new one hasn't yet been appointed. 

River Don

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #917 on May 20, 2022, 08:41:18 pm by River Don »
A bloke who has built his entire reputation on upholding the law can't hold on if he's broken the law.

As I understand it, unless he is issued with a fine then he hasn't broken the law.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/10/sir-keir-starmer-will-not-resign-beergate-broke-rules-isnt-fined/

Yes. He will resign if he has broken the law.

If he is reprimanded he hasn't broken the law. It will be a surprise if he's reprimanded.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 08:43:39 pm by River Don »

Bentley Bullet

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #918 on May 20, 2022, 08:44:55 pm by Bentley Bullet »
So you're not classing breaking the rules and breaking the law as the same thing?

River Don

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #919 on May 20, 2022, 08:50:46 pm by River Don »
So you're not classing breaking the rules and breaking the law as the same thing?

I still think a reprimand might be enough to force a resignation depending on the judgement. We shall see.

Boris will be hoping it's all above board, that's for sure.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2022, 08:58:12 pm by River Don »

wilts rover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #920 on May 20, 2022, 09:03:00 pm by wilts rover »
Sue Gray and Boris Johnson had private meeting to discuss handling of partygate report, Sky News understands:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1527726289527898113

'impartial investigation'

drfchound

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #921 on May 20, 2022, 09:28:33 pm by drfchound »
I wonder what percentage of the country will trust The Durham Constabulary when they don't give Keir Starmer a fixed penalty fine?


There is no way Starmer is getting fined. His resignation would put the heat back on Johnson.

Durham constabulary have said that they will not retrospectively fine people for something that happened two years ago.
Starmer chose his words carefully to fit that situation when he said he would resign if he was fined.

wilts rover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #922 on May 20, 2022, 09:35:59 pm by wilts rover »
Murdoch's top political journalist confirms this is correct:

Everyone in Britain still acts as if this was a normal government. Instead it is a project of deliberate destruction, of laws, of institutions, of anything that stands in the way of a PM who just doesn’t want to be held to account

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1527729072398278657

But Keir Starmer had a beer with his dinner.

big fat yorkshire pudding

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #923 on May 20, 2022, 10:14:12 pm by big fat yorkshire pudding »
Sue Gray and Boris Johnson had private meeting to discuss handling of partygate report, Sky News understands:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1527726289527898113

'impartial investigation'

I thought the report was mostly finished ages ago?  Reviewing the outcome seems entirely appropriate to me, as long as the full report is published.

drfchound

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #924 on May 20, 2022, 10:26:37 pm by drfchound »
Murdoch's top political journalist confirms this is correct:

Everyone in Britain still acts as if this was a normal government. Instead it is a project of deliberate destruction, of laws, of institutions, of anything that stands in the way of a PM who just doesn’t want to be held to account

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1527729072398278657

But Keir Starmer had a beer with his dinner.

Mmm, not quite the whole scenario there wilts.
Was it an illegal gathering, he denied at first that his deputy leader was present then suddenly realised there was evidence to prove she was there so he “remembered” that she was.
She is hardly difficult to miss is she.

SydneyRover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #925 on May 21, 2022, 12:37:40 am by SydneyRover »
This is what will need some explaining .......

''Adam Wagner, the leading authority on Covid law, puts it, the Met’s position amounts to a finding that Johnson “attended six illegal gatherings but attended five of them legally”''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/20/boris-johnson-lying-pm-britain-tories

Consorting, conspiracy, illegal gathering, disorderly house, it's hard to equate police action over a vigil for a murder victim since found to be legal and #10 acting as a crack house.


River Don

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #926 on May 21, 2022, 07:40:53 am by River Don »
Johnson also had a private meeting with Gray. So much for an impartial judgement there then.

https://news.sky.com/story/sue-gray-and-boris-johnson-had-private-meeting-to-discuss-handling-of-partygate-report-sky-news-understands-12617829

There's a strong fishy smell around here.

River Don

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #927 on May 21, 2022, 03:27:52 pm by River Don »
Sue Gray and Boris Johnson had private meeting to discuss handling of partygate report, Sky News understands:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1527726289527898113

'impartial investigation'

I thought the report was mostly finished ages ago?  Reviewing the outcome seems entirely appropriate to me, as long as the full report is published.

How can reviewing the outcome before it is published possibly be appropriate?

This investigation has never been particularly independant, it essentially involves an enployee investigating her boss.

To then find they had a meeting before its contents were published... Well, I don't think it's contents can really be taken very seriously. It already looks very much like a whitewash.

wilts rover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #928 on May 21, 2022, 07:51:13 pm by wilts rover »
Sue Gray and Boris Johnson had private meeting to discuss handling of partygate report, Sky News understands:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1527726289527898113

'impartial investigation'

I thought the report was mostly finished ages ago?  Reviewing the outcome seems entirely appropriate to me, as long as the full report is published.

What is there to review if the full report is to be published?

Clearly the only reason for them to have a meeting is to decide what part of it is NOT going to be published (allegedly the photos that showed Johnson, with beer/wine, at events for which he has not been fined).

wilts rover

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Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
« Reply #929 on May 21, 2022, 07:54:28 pm by wilts rover »
Boris Johnson is expected to scapegoat the head of the civil service Simon Case this week in a desperate effort to save his own job, as both men face stinging criticism in a report into lockdown-breaking parties in Downing Street.

One senior Whitehall figure who has seen sections of the report said it could also prove more damaging for Johnson than the fine he was given in April for attending his own birthday party, because it will make clear the PM’s involvement in several other events which may have breached rules, but for which he was not fined.

“From my expectation of what I know it will be the real deal. There will be detail. There will be evidence. She is going to say this is under your watch, this is your house, all that kind of stuff,” the source said.

A friend of Gray who has worked at a high level with her in the civil service said the report would make “gruesome” reading for both the prime minister and his most senior civil servants and that Gray was in no mood to be forced into watering down her findings.

Sections of the report may prove more damaging for the PM than the fine he was given for attending his own birthday party, according to a senior Whitehall figure. Photograph: Andrew Parsons/10 Downing Street/AFP/Getty Images

The friend said that before the Johnson era, the only party that was ever held among staff in Downing Street was the annual Christmas one. “We didn’t have karaoke machines and suitcases to bring in drink in those days. I think it will be very difficult for Simon Case.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/21/boris-johnson-to-sacrifice-top-official-over-partygate-to-save-himself

 

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