Gas Prices

[wilts rover]

Renewable energy now NINE times cheaper than UK gas:

https://twitter.com/DrSimEvans/status/1562433136025550848

[BillyStubbsTears]

Renewable energy now NINE times cheaper than UK gas:

https://twitter.com/DrSimEvans/status/1562433136025550848

And yet..


Sunak and Truss have spent the last month fighting like cats in a sack to be seen as the one most against new solar farms. Because the Tory party members they are trying to woo really are that thick.

[BillyStubbsTears]

As far as I can see, whoever the next PM is, their policies are:

Cut taxes.
Spend a king's ransom sending half a dozen asylum seekers to Rwanda.

Ban cheap electricity generation.

Stewart Lee was 9 years too early with this pitch. He'd have won hands down if he'd campaigned like this today.

https://youtu.be/6KVO378tjsw

[Bentley Bullet]

A middle-class lefty winning over middle-class lefties.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yeah BB. I hadn't thought of it that way. You're right.

[Bentley Bullet]

Yeah BB. I hadn't thought of it that way. You're right.

I always prefer to be right, I find it easier to get a point across that way.

[Sprotyrover]

The Germans are not happy with Olaf Scholz as the country teeters on the brink of recession there was 0% growth in July and the IMF predicts 0.9% growth next year, they have had their gas supplies from Russia cut by 80% and need to save 20% on Gas consumption immediately, which is not possible, they are trying to stock pile gas but can't despite having the facilities. France, Italy and Spain also in trouble, our growth is also forecast at a dismal 0.5%.
Olaf Scholz has been in Canada with a massive trade delegation trying to buy Canadian Gas but there is no infrastructure to export to Europe, German companies are there now wanting to build a pipeline which would come on line in 12 Months.Such a pipeline would mainly have to Cross indigenous land and that's a big No no for Trudeau
It's going to be a very bleak winter in Europe and the Populace is blaming who ever is in government.
I wouldn't be PM for a Gold Pig?!

[River Don]

Macron warns of 'end of abundance' and the winter ahead. He's trying to prepare the French for what is going to be a horrific few months.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/24/macron-warns-of-end-of-abundance-as-france-faces-difficult-winter

[River Don]

This from the Telegraph, detailing emergency measures the treasury is considering.

Whitehall officials are drawing up a “three winter” strategy to help families with soaring energy costs between now and 2025, The Telegraph understands.

They are working on options including short, medium and long-term proposals that will be presented to Downing Street early next month.

Work is under way to determine which measure could be rolled out immediately and in place this autumn, when the energy price cap will rise to over £3,600.

Treasury officials are also examining ways in which the UK’s energy supply could be bolstered in time for next winter.

“There is even one fracking company who reckons they could even get some energy into the market by next winter if they were allowed to get cracking straight away,” said a senior government source.

The firm, based in the north of England, has told the Treasury that, if it is granted a fracking licence immediately, it is likely to be able to inject new supplies into the market by January.

A “moratorium” on fracking has been in place since November 2019, but both Tory leadership candidates have said they would support it in areas where local people are willing to see it take place.


Edit. I guess that company would be Cuadrilla, who were the ones operating in Lancashire before the operation was shut down due to the earth tremors.

[Sprotyrover]

This from the Telegraph, detailing emergency measures the treasury is considering.

Whitehall officials are drawing up a “three winter” strategy to help families with soaring energy costs between now and 2025, The Telegraph understands.

They are working on options including short, medium and long-term proposals that will be presented to Downing Street early next month.

Work is under way to determine which measure could be rolled out immediately and in place this autumn, when the energy price cap will rise to over £3,600.

Treasury officials are also examining ways in which the UK’s energy supply could be bolstered in time for next winter.

“There is even one fracking company who reckons they could even get some energy into the market by next winter if they were allowed to get cracking straight away,” said a senior government source.

The firm, based in the north of England, has told the Treasury that, if it is granted a fracking licence immediately, it is likely to be able to inject new supplies into the market by January.

A “moratorium” on fracking has been in place since November 2019, but both Tory leadership candidates have said they would support it in areas where local people are willing to see it take place.


Edit. I guess that company would be Cuadrilla, who were the ones operating in Lancashire before the operation was shut down due to the earth tremors.

there are PDL’s in place all over the north could be the one near Pickering?

[SydneyRover]

I'd like to see all the executives of fracking companies start each day with a full glass of the chemicals used for fracking, just as a precaution to see how safe the water supply will be.

[Axholme Lion]

The politicians with an axe to grind against Russia are responsible for the forthcoming misery to be inflicted on the working masses. Most people want a decent standard of living and to be able to heat their homes and feed their families and are not concerned with far away wars. People like BST with his hatred of Russia are happy to see you all freeze just to try and get one over Putin. I'll bet the sales of multi fuel burners is going through the roof, so much for cutting emissions...

[selby]

  Fracking would have got the green light in the UK but for the discovery of large deposits in the Weald Valley and Wessex with viable fields that could have been extracted.
  The government were not very happy when the southern England  areas were being coveted by the oil and gas industries, until then as long as it was based up north out of the way it was being touted as bringing prosperity to the north of England and the saviour of the countries power generation.
  Then the loveys started having sit ins down sarf and protests in the nice quiet villages.
  I always knew there was a lot of gas in Surrey, Hampshire. Kent, and Sussex, just didn't know it was underground as well.

[drfchound]

This from the Telegraph, detailing emergency measures the treasury is considering.

Whitehall officials are drawing up a “three winter” strategy to help families with soaring energy costs between now and 2025, The Telegraph understands.

They are working on options including short, medium and long-term proposals that will be presented to Downing Street early next month.

Work is under way to determine which measure could be rolled out immediately and in place this autumn, when the energy price cap will rise to over £3,600.

Treasury officials are also examining ways in which the UK’s energy supply could be bolstered in time for next winter.

“There is even one fracking company who reckons they could even get some energy into the market by next winter if they were allowed to get cracking straight away,” said a senior government source.

The firm, based in the north of England, has told the Treasury that, if it is granted a fracking licence immediately, it is likely to be able to inject new supplies into the market by January.

A “moratorium” on fracking has been in place since November 2019, but both Tory leadership candidates have said they would support it in areas where local people are willing to see it take place.


Edit. I guess that company would be Cuadrilla, who were the ones operating in Lancashire before the operation was shut down due to the earth tremors.

The NIMBY people will always object to Fracking in their own areas.

[wilts rover]

Fracking has currently cost UK Taxpayers £32.7 million - and not a barrel of gas has been delivered.

From studies done to date, any shale gas produced from wells in the UK will be at a cost 30% higher than LNG and 3x more expensive than that produced in the US. It will have a negligable effect on gas and electric bills and add between 0.017-0.033% to UK GDP (its 0.2% in US).

https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/files/65318663/Economic_viability_of_UK_shale_gas.pdf

Its not suitable to extract from the UK and will be a total waste of money without solving anything

https://theconversation.com/why-fracking-is-not-the-answer-to-soaring-uk-gas-prices-177957

But of course the fossil fuel companies who fund the Tory Party want more taxpayers money for nothing - rather than develop renewable sources that are far cheaper and quicker to initiate.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Unreal isn't it?

We will allow fracking. But we'll ban solar farms. This is what happens when you rule by gut prejudice.

[albie]

The only way fracking gets a toehold is if the cost of production is subsidized by consumer bills, or by the state.

It is entirely uneconomic, and like with uncompetitive nuclear, it needs massive financial support to supply expensive energy at a high premium above the cost of the same energy from renewables like solar or wind.

It is curious that the Tories are locked into the interests of the fossil fuel industry so completely. No-one who really believes in the market would touch these sources with a bargepole.

Good article on the posturing from the politicians in the Guardian;
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/25/fact-check-is-net-zero-really-to-blame-for-soaring-energy-bills-green-levies-renewables

Much of the discussion in the mainstream is prompted by industry lobby interests, fact free and mathematically challenged.

[drfchound]

It is curious that the Tories are locked into the interests of the fossil fuel industry so completely. No-one who really believes in the market would touch these sources with a bargepole.

In the last couple of days one of our posters was saying that Thatcher shouldn’t have closed the pits.

[danumdon]

The only way fracking gets a toehold is if the cost of production is subsidized by consumer bills, or by the state.

It is entirely uneconomic, and like with uncompetitive nuclear, it needs massive financial support to supply expensive energy at a high premium above the cost of the same energy from renewables like solar or wind.

It is curious that the Tories are locked into the interests of the fossil fuel industry so completely. No-one who really believes in the market would touch these sources with a bargepole.

Good article on the posturing from the politicians in the Guardian;
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/25/fact-check-is-net-zero-really-to-blame-for-soaring-energy-bills-green-levies-renewables

Much of the discussion in the mainstream is prompted by industry lobby interests, fact free and mathematically challenged.

Albie, i'll ask this question again as last time i got my head bit off by the forum mongs,

I agree that fossil fuels have more than had their day and need to be phased out as soon as practical on both climate and health implications. In the meantime and until we manage to come up with a creditable, workable solution what energy source should we be looking to use to fill in the downtime from solar and wind if its not to be Nuclear?

[SydneyRover]

Energy storage devices.

[danumdon]

Energy storage devices.

Is that currently a creditable working solution?

[albie]

DD,

It depends what you are trying to store, and for how long.
Here is a UK example;
https://www.energy-storage.news/vanadium-flow-battery-energised-at-tidal-power-to-green-hydrogen-research-project-in-scotland/

Not only is it working, it is cost effective as well.
NR posted about the Finnish Sand Battery as a heat store earlier.
So Syd is right on this, energy storage will go hand in glove with new renewable capacity.

Don't forget we are transitioning to EV also......charging at night with cheap tariff leccy also acts as an energy store.

[danumdon]

DD,

It depends what you are trying to store, and for how long.
Here is a UK example;
https://www.energy-storage.news/vanadium-flow-battery-energised-at-tidal-power-to-green-hydrogen-research-project-in-scotland/

Not only is it working, it is cost effective as well.
NR posted about the Finnish Sand Battery as a heat store earlier.
So Syd is right on this, energy storage will go hand in glove with new renewable capacity.

Don't forget we are transitioning to EV also......charging at night with cheap tariff leccy also acts as an energy store.

The example you quote sound promising, but the scale is still small and at a development stage,

"The VRFB system “will integrate power generated by our clients’ tidal turbines and help optimise hydrogen production,” EMEC managing director Neil Kermode said yesterday (18 August).

“Energy storage solutions like vanadium flow batteries are crucial to creating resilient, clean energy systems of the future and we look forward to seeing the integrated system fully demonstrated later this year.”

The VRFB comprises 48 of Invinity’s VS3 battery modules which in combination with tidal power generators will feed EMEC’s 670kW hydrogen electrolyser."

So when you factor in the storage installation and the Tidal barrage i'm not sure how much this particular example is costing.

Would we really be saying that this type of system, multiplied a great many times is ready to take on the current load we get from fossils?

Or are we talking 10years plus down the road?

"Don't forget we are transitioning to EV also......charging at night with cheap tariff leccy also acts as an energy store."

Are you saying that EV batteries can be relied upon to contribute  energy back into the grid, i'm sure its feasible but would it be practical, given that EV drivers will want the stored energy for their own personal usage in their vehicle?

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is a very important contribution.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TorstenBell/status/1562787390452035586

It's making me re-think. The scale of the problem is simply too big to do what I thought (let prices rise and help out the poorest) or the other extreme (cap prices where they are now for everyone).

God knows I hope there are some very, very clever people in the Treasury with plans to shove under Truss's nose in 10 days time, because if not, the country falls apart by Xmas.

[albie]

DD,

Quick vid of the Hornsdale storage facility in Oz;
https://youtu.be/yZyb5pT8_Xk

Same thing needed with all mega leccy schemes.

Vehicle to Grid is very much a viable solution, providing a zero cost contribution to grid balancing.
I expect it to be a big development in the next few years as EV takes over from ICE.
https://www.current-news.co.uk/news/octopus-energy-and-national-grid-eso-hail-line-in-the-sand-moment-for-v2g-tech

[Filo]

An 80% increase announced from 1st October, all while the PM holidays and doesn’t give a f**k, and the two wannabe PM’s just say madder and madder things and also doesn’t give a f**k, and the Chancellor says we are helping by giving everyone £400 for their bills and doesn’t give a f**k!

And no one available for comment this morning from the Government, surprise surprise!

[drfchound]

The chancellor has made comments on the energy prices this morning.
Perhaps you didn’t bother to look.
Just think, if the Tories hadn’t encouraged Putin to invade Ukraine then the gas prices wouldn't have been as high as they are.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

An 80% increase announced from 1st October, all while the PM holidays and doesn’t give a f**k, and the two wannabe PM’s just say madder and madder things and also doesn’t give a f**k, and the Chancellor says we are helping by giving everyone £400 for their bills and doesn’t give a f**k!

And no one available for comment this morning from the Government, surprise surprise!

The chancellor has been;

https://news.sky.com/story/soaring-energy-price-cap-will-cause-stress-and-anxiety-but-chancellor-nadhim-zahawi-insists-help-on-the-way-12681721

There's not much point the current PM saying anything as he doesn't have the ability to make the change given he's less than 2 weeks less in the job (why has it took so long....)

I have no bloody idea how they fix this, I don't think there is an easy answer.  A better solution would be the big countries coming together and fixing the prices on the world markets.  That's an impossible thing to do so I fear there's no way people can be protected.
 

[Filo]

The chancellor has made comments on the energy prices this morning.
Perhaps you didn’t bother to look.
Just think, if the Tories hadn’t encouraged Putin to invade Ukraine then the gas prices wouldn't have been as high as they are.

At the time of writing no one from Government was available to be interviewed on TV, the Chancellor made a general media comment about every household getting £400, as I said in my post, perhaps you didn’t bother to read the whole post!

[Filo]

An 80% increase announced from 1st October, all while the PM holidays and doesn’t give a f**k, and the two wannabe PM’s just say madder and madder things and also doesn’t give a f**k, and the Chancellor says we are helping by giving everyone £400 for their bills and doesn’t give a f**k!

And no one available for comment this morning from the Government, surprise surprise!

The chancellor has been;

https://news.sky.com/story/soaring-energy-price-cap-will-cause-stress-and-anxiety-but-chancellor-nadhim-zahawi-insists-help-on-the-way-12681721

There's not much point the current PM saying anything as he doesn't have the ability to make the change given he's less than 2 weeks less in the job (why has it took so long....)

I have no bloody idea how they fix this, I don't think there is an easy answer.  A better solution would be the big countries coming together and fixing the prices on the world markets.  That's an impossible thing to do so I fear there's no way people can be protected.
 

But the current PM had the ability to throw another £50m at Ukraine!