Gas Prices

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

An 80% increase announced from 1st October, all while the PM holidays and doesn’t give a f**k, and the two wannabe PM’s just say madder and madder things and also doesn’t give a f**k, and the Chancellor says we are helping by giving everyone £400 for their bills and doesn’t give a f**k!

And no one available for comment this morning from the Government, surprise surprise!

The chancellor has been;

https://news.sky.com/story/soaring-energy-price-cap-will-cause-stress-and-anxiety-but-chancellor-nadhim-zahawi-insists-help-on-the-way-12681721

There's not much point the current PM saying anything as he doesn't have the ability to make the change given he's less than 2 weeks less in the job (why has it took so long....)

I have no bloody idea how they fix this, I don't think there is an easy answer.  A better solution would be the big countries coming together and fixing the prices on the world markets.  That's an impossible thing to do so I fear there's no way people can be protected.
 

But the current PM had the ability to throw another £50m at Ukraine!

He does right now.  But he can't announce we're going to do x in 6 weeks because he'll be gone by then.

[Filo]

An 80% increase announced from 1st October, all while the PM holidays and doesn’t give a f**k, and the two wannabe PM’s just say madder and madder things and also doesn’t give a f**k, and the Chancellor says we are helping by giving everyone £400 for their bills and doesn’t give a f**k!

And no one available for comment this morning from the Government, surprise surprise!

The chancellor has been;

https://news.sky.com/story/soaring-energy-price-cap-will-cause-stress-and-anxiety-but-chancellor-nadhim-zahawi-insists-help-on-the-way-12681721

There's not much point the current PM saying anything as he doesn't have the ability to make the change given he's less than 2 weeks less in the job (why has it took so long....)

I have no bloody idea how they fix this, I don't think there is an easy answer.  A better solution would be the big countries coming together and fixing the prices on the world markets.  That's an impossible thing to do so I fear there's no way people can be protected.
 

But the current PM had the ability to throw another £50m at Ukraine!

He does right now.  But he can't announce we're going to do x in 6 weeks because he'll be gone by then.

It’s right now action is needed, not in 6 weeks, he’s having a right old jolly at our expense, zombie Government

[BillyStubbsTears]

Of course the current PM could have implemented any policy he damn well wanted.

If we'd been invaded, would the PM have f**ked off on holiday and said "I'm retiring in 3 weeks. Not my problem"?

This is now crisis management. Martin Lewis has been on Radio 4 this morning saying he had calculated this price cap as early as March. We've had 6 months to get a workable plan in place for a problem that, financially is bigger than COVID. We've fannied about and done nothing. While the Tory party leadership candidates have been engaged all summer in a "Who's the biggest reactionary bigot?" contest.

[Filo]

The Chancellor, the man who claimed expenses for his stables is now telling us we should all cut back on our energy use, they are taking this piss and laughing in our faces!

[mugnapper]

Ooh, cut back on my energy usage to reduce my bill.
That had absolutely not crossed my mind.
The man with £20 million quid in an Offshore tax haven is a genius.

[albie]

Much media gabble about how to get through the crisis, without considering whether the present arrangements are in any way sensible.

No-one seems to understand that supporting zombie companies with public money does nothing to sort out the issue.

Here is why:
https://www.current-news.co.uk/news/60-of-remaining-smaller-energy-suppliers-are-technically-insolvent-says-price-bailey

So let these insolvent companies go, and put their customers (and those from Bulb) into a new public supply company, tasked with providing least cost energy from real renewables, and backed by the public purse via tax income.

Tinkering with the system is simply irrelevant if it does not prevent consumers being vulnerable to further disruption of a weak system of extraction and supply.

[Filo]

Ooh, cut back on my energy usage to reduce my bill.
That had absolutely not crossed my mind.
The man with £20 million quid in an Offshore tax haven is a genius.

They genuinely think we are all thick

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ooh, cut back on my energy usage to reduce my bill.
That had absolutely not crossed my mind.
The man with £20 million quid in an Offshore tax haven is a genius.

They genuinely think we are all thick

Probkrm is, this is how badly some people are informed about energy costs.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/money/16301543/how-much-cost-electric-blanket/amp/

Scroll down and see if you can spot the mistake.


That journalist has overestimated the electric cost of an electric blanket by a factor of 7 (at the prices then in operation).

Actually one of THE best ways you can save money is to use an electric blanket and turn your gas central heating down a lot at night. I didn't know that before today.

[Filo]

I get up in a morning and there is already 1£ on the smart meter from midnight, bar turning everything off at the socket and do without my security cameras and internet, I’m not sure where I can use less energy

[River Don]

Energy prices of this scale will simply crash the economy, businesses won't cope as people will have no money for discretionary spending. At least what Starmer is putting forward, a solid price cap and tax the massive, undeserved profits of the oil and gas sector might avert that.

We need to put off some of the pain to get alternative energy sources up and running.

It might be worth asking how is it we have become reliant on the international gas markets. Then again energy security stopped being a topic politicians mentioned long ago.

[Filo]

Energy prices of this scale will simply crash the economy, businesses won't cope as people will have no money for discretionary spending. At least what Starmer is putting forward, a solid price cap and tax the massive, undeserved profits of the oil and gas sector might avert that.

We need to put off some of the pain to get alternative energy sources up and running.

It might be worth asking how is it we have become reliant on the international gas markets. Then again energy security stopped being a topic politicians mentioned long ago.

We did away with a natural resource that we had in abundance, Coal! We demolished all the coal fired powerstations, even though clean coal technology is out there, all in the pursuit of lowering our carbon footprint, while Countries like China build more Coal fired powerstations increasing their footprint

[BillyStubbsTears]

Energy prices of this scale will simply crash the economy, businesses won't cope as people will have no money for discretionary spending. At least what Starmer is putting forward, a solid price cap and tax the massive, undeserved profits of the oil and gas sector might avert that.

We need to put off some of the pain to get alternative energy sources up and running.

It might be worth asking how is it we have become reliant on the international gas markets. Then again energy security stopped being a topic politicians mentioned long ago.

You're right that there is no way the economy continues to function without massive Govt intervention.

The problem is, the scale required is eye-watering.

LAbour's plan to cap prices at the May 2022 value would, according to the Resolution Foundation Twitter thread I posted last night (please read it - it is the clearest description of the scale of the issue I've yet seen) cost £36bn this year and £64bn next year.

But here's the rub. That's based on the difference between the April and October cap prices. £1900 to £3550. The expectations now are that to reflect market gas prices, the cap rises to £5000 by April and possibly £7000 by this time next year. If the latter is correct, Labour's plan of holding the cap at £1900 would cost something like £200bn for 2023. And that's before support for business.

The scale of this dwarfs the GFC or even, potentially COVID. And I'm hearing nothing from Govt that suggests they are going to be as radical as the Labour plans. If they have a much smaller relief package, as you say, the economy will grind to a halt because even previously comfortable people will have to tighten their  belts and massively cut other spending.

Here's how hard it's going to hit even the comfortably off.

Someone in a large semi with 2-3 kids, using 4000kWh of electric and 20,000kWh of gas a year (both a good bit above average) was paying £1600/year last winter. From October, they'll be paying £5000. By January, that'll be up to £6-7,000 and if the predictions of this time next year are right, it'll be £10,000.

That's a lot of spare cash to find even for someone who is comfortably off. It means a lot of other economies which hit the rest of the economy. Less going out. No holiday. No new car etc, etc.


In fairness to Zahawi today, he did quite rightly say that the No1 priority has to be helping out those at the very bottom end who have nothing to fall back on, and who are already living with belts tightened to snapping point. They must come first. But the political reality is that it's not only people at the bottom who will struggle. Even someone on £50-60k a year will struggle to fid  the money for where next year's bills are going. And the political reality means  that they will have to be helped too if the Tories have any chance of surviving this. So I'm expecting a huge wave of Govt support announced in a couple of weeks. Anything less and the next 3-12 months will be nightmarish.

[River Don]

Point taken BST.

I think we can forget massive government intervention. What we'll get will be targeted and very disappointing. I think we can be getting ready for a recession like we've never known, unless there is a revolution in Russia and they string the bas**rd up.

We very, very rapidly need affordable energy and I think the only way to get near that is going to be fracking. I'm dead against it but given the time frame, I don't think anything else can start being rolled out significantly as soon as the spring. We have the existing infrastructure we just need the commodity to burn. I write these words in the full knowledge there was a proposed fracking site just a few fields away from where I live.

If we do frack then the gas cannot be sold on the open market, it's got to be supplied direct to the UK government. Whilst we are about it we need the Rough gas storage renovated and running and more storage solutions. We could be banging up onshore wind farms quite rapidly too. The government needs to have a huge insulation program announced too. It's no understatement to say we need to be on a wartime footing for this.

What are the chances of anything like this going ahead? Low I'd say.

[Sprotyrover]

Energy prices of this scale will simply crash the economy, businesses won't cope as people will have no money for discretionary spending. At least what Starmer is putting forward, a solid price cap and tax the massive, undeserved profits of the oil and gas sector might avert that.

We need to put off some of the pain to get alternative energy sources up and running.

It might be worth asking how is it we have become reliant on the international gas markets. Then again energy security stopped being a topic politicians mentioned long ago.

You're right that there is no way the economy continues to function without massive Govt intervention.

The problem is, the scale required is eye-watering.

LAbour's plan to cap prices at the May 2022 value would, according to the Resolution Foundation Twitter thread I posted last night (please read it - it is the clearest description of the scale of the issue I've yet seen) cost £36bn this year and £64bn next year.

But here's the rub. That's based on the difference between the April and October cap prices. £1900 to £3550. The expectations now are that to reflect market gas prices, the cap rises to £5000 by April and possibly £7000 by this time next year. If the latter is correct, Labour's plan of holding the cap at £1900 would cost something like £200bn for 2023. And that's before support for business.

The scale of this dwarfs the GFC or even, potentially COVID. And I'm hearing nothing from Govt that suggests they are going to be as radical as the Labour plans. If they have a much smaller relief package, as you say, the economy will grind to a halt because even previously comfortable people will have to tighten their  belts and massively cut other spending.

Here's how hard it's going to hit even the comfortably off.

Someone in a large semi with 2-3 kids, using 4000kWh of electric and 20,000kWh of gas a year (both a good bit above average) was paying £1600/year last winter. From October, they'll be paying £5000. By January, that'll be up to £6-7,000 and if the predictions of this time next year are right, it'll be £10,000.

That's a lot of spare cash to find even for someone who is comfortably off. It means a lot of other economies which hit the rest of the economy. Less going out. No holiday. No new car etc, etc.


In fairness to Zahawi today, he did quite rightly say that the No1 priority has to be helping out those at the very bottom end who have nothing to fall back on, and who are already living with belts tightened to snapping point. They must come first. But the political reality is that it's not only people at the bottom who will struggle. Even someone on £50-60k a year will struggle to fid  the money for where next year's bills are going. And the political reality means  that they will have to be helped too if the Tories have any chance of surviving this. So I'm expecting a huge wave of Govt support announced in a couple of weeks. Anything less and the next 3-12 months will be nightmarish.

We are in for a rough ride, possibly explains the Massive German visit to Canada, they are planning the long term, we never look beyond our Nose end!. I wonder if any body is 'Courting' Venezuelathe country with the worlds largest Oil and Gas reserves which was totally sidelined by the Shenanigans of successive US Governments.

[grayx]

The “knock -on” effect is going to be huge. Old folk wont put their heating on in winter & will get ill as will those with a history of depression which has strong links to debt. Our nhs is already on its arse & cant cope with extra numbers & then theres the threat of further covid.
I cant believe a govt can be so incompetent. All they want to do is point the finger of blame on covid or russia. Do something & quick ffs

[River Don]

The “knock -on” effect is going to be huge. Old folk wont put their heating on in winter & will get ill as will those with a history of depression which has strong links to debt. Our nhs is already on its arse & cant cope with extra numbers & then theres the threat of further covid.
I cant believe a govt can be so incompetent. All they want to do is point the finger of blame on covid or russia. Do something & quick ffs

I don't think they are even going to be able to heat schools and hospitals.

[River Don]

News today that the Russians are flaring off huge quantities of gas at a site near Finland. It's very difficult to turn a gas well off, their storage is full, so they are just burning it off.

[Sprotyrover]

The very first OP on this thread mentions that our Gas production has doubled but it is being sold on the open market. What's the feasibility of the Government stepping in and Prohibiting Gas from being exported? Can we do that? If we do that and get Canada exporting and Venezuela back to producing and exporting we solve our short term issues and can then do something about the longer term,what do other posters think?

[ravenrover]

The chancellor has made comments on the energy prices this morning.
Perhaps you didn’t bother to look.
Just think, if the Tories hadn’t encouraged Putin to invade Ukraine then the gas prices wouldn't have been as high as they are.

At the time of writing no one from Government was available to be interviewed on TV, the Chancellor made a general media comment about every household getting £400, as I said in my post, perhaps you didn’t bother to read the whole post!

Filo, what you really mean is that the Treasury issued a statement and  put Zahawis name at the bottom of it. Have any of this lot of ministers put a shift in since Johnson got the boot? Where are Pritstick Raabid Smog Zahawi and co? Working from home? At least we know Mistrust is still around not that she is doing the job she is actually paid to do by us, the Taxpayer

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The very first OP on this thread mentions that our Gas production has doubled but it is being sold on the open market. What's the feasibility of the Government stepping in and Prohibiting Gas from being exported? Can we do that? If we do that and get Canada exporting and Venezuela back to producing and exporting we solve our short term issues and can then do something about the longer term,what do other posters think?

Not a route we should go down, that insular attitude is a bad move in the long term.

What surprises me is we haven't yet done things that other countries have. Eg turn street lights off, stop lighting buildings up etc.

Lots of big energy uses are used to load management at peak demand times (I used to sit in the dark in the office etc) so I'm sure there will be more of that.

Either way it's gonna cost many of us a lot of money and that clearly feeds in to the rest of the economy.  It may though lead to less working from home particularly over winter.

[River Don]

The very first OP on this thread mentions that our Gas production has doubled but it is being sold on the open market. What's the feasibility of the Government stepping in and Prohibiting Gas from being exported? Can we do that? If we do that and get Canada exporting and Venezuela back to producing and exporting we solve our short term issues and can then do something about the longer term,what do other posters think?

Not a route we should go down, that insular attitude is a bad move in the long term.

What surprises me is we haven't yet done things that other countries have. Eg turn street lights off, stop lighting buildings up etc.

Lots of big energy uses are used to load management at peak demand times (I used to sit in the dark in the office etc) so I'm sure there will be more of that.

Either way it's gonna cost many of us a lot of money and that clearly feeds in to the rest of the economy.  It may though lead to less working from home particularly over winter.

IT is pure complacency from a government that is literally on holiday. They've known this was coming since last autumn when the fertiliser plants had to be bailed out due to the soaring price of gas.

[IDM]

I get up in a morning and there is already 1£ on the smart meter from midnight, bar turning everything off at the socket and do without my security cameras and internet, I’m not sure where I can use less energy

There's more than 70p of that on standing charges - why can't they be scrapped?  That's over £250 a year for starters.

[River Don]

I get up in a morning and there is already 1£ on the smart meter from midnight, bar turning everything off at the socket and do without my security cameras and internet, I’m not sure where I can use less energy

There's more than 70p of that on standing charges - why can't they be scrapped?  That's over £250 a year for starters.

A large part of that standing charge is to pay for the cost of the collapse of so many energy suppliers last year, if you can believe that!

This has nothing to do with the consumer, we are bailing out fly by night businesses.

the cost of infrastructure hasn't increased much it's purely the commodity price.

[Sprotyrover]

There's a few things we can do uch as switch off and drain the Hot tub a massive 25% on your Domestic leccy Billif youotone! Turn off and unplug Televisions etc they use a lot on standby.dont boil a full kettle if there is only one or two of you. Etc

[River Don]

Who would have thought energy would become a luxury so fast?

Well it can't. The economy simply will not function without energy. We need very fast solutions.

[IDM]

The chancellor has made comments on the energy prices this morning.
Perhaps you didn’t bother to look.
Just think, if the Tories hadn’t encouraged Putin to invade Ukraine then the gas prices wouldn't have been as high as they are.

Did the Chancellor say "look, we've known this price hike has been coming for months, so now this has been confirmed I am happy to announce we will be freezing the cap as it stands/giving every household an additional £800 (etc) paid for a slower than necessary reduction in the cap in future years"

or similar.?

Did he f**k.

[River Don]

This has been coming. This has been coming for years. I'm so angry. It has been obvious, these Kitsons want slinging out of office. Now.

[drfchound]

The chancellor has made comments on the energy prices this morning.
Perhaps you didn’t bother to look.
Just think, if the Tories hadn’t encouraged Putin to invade Ukraine then the gas prices wouldn't have been as high as they are.

Did the Chancellor say "look, we've known this price hike has been coming for months, so now this has been confirmed I am happy to announce we will be freezing the cap as it stands/giving every household an additional £800 (etc) paid for a slower than necessary reduction in the cap in future years"

or similar.?

Did he f**k.

No, of course he didn’t, but then again I never suggested anything of the sort.
There have been a lot of assumptions on here of late without knowing what is going to happen.
I agree that much needs to be done though.

[River Don]

I have said for years there is a looming energy problem. BST bless him has told me no, you are getting your knickers in a twist for nothing. Well look now. Now we are at the face of it.

It's cold and hard.

We need affordable energy. Where is it coming from?

[BillyStubbsTears]

RD.
I'm happy to take a kicking when I've got things wrong, but you're mixing up different discussions here.

Our previous debates have been about the ability to produce enough energy globally in the long term as we transition away from fossil fuels.

Fundamentally, this has nothing to do with that issue. It's about an overheated (sic) world economy driving demand up at the same time that Putin is deliberately throttling supply.