Fleetwood- Wednsdeh

[Colemans Left Hook]

blow that bl00dy whistle in every match please

[normal rules]

Wendies 72% possession. 21 shots.

[drfchound]

It looks like an interesting final day at the top of L1 on Saturday.

[normal rules]

Wendies win.

[normal rules]

Big exodus of mk fans to Plymouth and rovrum to gillingham this sat.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So. Still seat of the pants stuff this Satdi.

If we can just go in at H/T 17-0 up, I reckon we might have a chance.

[Prez]

Incredible that technically our relegation "battle" has gone to the final day of the season.

I fear the Morecambe away game may come back to haunt us.

[drfchound]

Dead right Prez, I thought at the time that that result had virtually relegated us. ( As I’m sure others did too).
Even with our disgraceful goal difference though, just one more point would have given us a slight chance of a last day survival.
I had fancied a day at Oxford too.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Incredible that technically our relegation "battle" has gone to the final day of the season.

I fear the Morecambe away game may come back to haunt us.

Even after that. 2 points from 2 home games against Gillingham and Fleetwood and we'd be going into the final day 5th bottom.

We are going down because when it has mattered, we have rolled over and died against spectacularly w**k opposition.

[normal rules]

Plus, when results have gone our way, on a number of occasions this season, we have failed spectacularly to capitalise.
My dad predicted some months ago it would go down to the last game.
I think he believed we had a chance though. Which we don’t. Not even close.

[Filo]

Fleetwood are at Bolton Saturday, even if they could Bolton won’t do us any favours and win 27-0, they’ll probably settle for 26-0, the t**ts

[BigH]

Incredible that technically our relegation "battle" has gone to the final day of the season.

I fear the Morecambe away game may come back to haunt us.

Well that…and the 6-0 away at Ipswich…and the 4-0 away at Cheltenham…and the 5-0 at home to Rotherham…and the 4-0 away at Charlton…

No case for the defence.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Or the attack...

I've been saying for months that we'd go down by 3-4 points. And in that light, playing Young Frankenstein up front for 20 appearances while Bogle was sidelined is simply unforgivable.

Just a couple of matches with someone up front who could have held the ball up and given some respite to the defence and a chance to build attacks would have made the difference.

[BigH]

True.

While our defence has been barely L2 standard for most of the season, our attack has been barely National League standard.

[steve@dcfd]

We have conceded 80 goals this season. So you can blame the attack and we will but we have won more games than others in bottom 5 most coming under GMC. If we could have got six draws instead of defeats then we wouldn’t be in the position we are in. So we can blame who we want but if the other three teams around us were not as bad we would have been cut adrift. So not scoring enough conceding to many that’s why we are in this position. 22 players brought in only an handful at the level we wanted I would rather had less but more quality but that would have cost.

[Canadian Rover]

Or the attack...

I've been saying for months that we'd go down by 3-4 points. And in that light, playing Young Frankenstein up front for 20 appearances while Bogle was sidelined is simply unforgivable.

Just a couple of matches with someone up front who could have held the ball up and given some respite to the defence and a chance to build attacks would have made the difference.

This is true BST whilst Bogle was exiled it was a case of The Emperors New Clothes. And although a few of us were loudly shouting for this to end the Club stood by and watched complete public mistreatment of employees.

They did this at the same time as a huge supporter of CALM.

We had JC employed in a mental well being mentorship role; yet nothing was resolved until the Club fired Wellens.

The opportunity cost was huge & in my view the clubs public stance at the time was shameful.

Bogle was still the best centre forward we have had this season at the club; Reo, Cukur, Dodoo, Mipo, Hiwula, Agard haven't had the same impact as he did in games...all this and I still don't think Bogle was very good - but the best of the bunch.

Long term I see Reo as a talent that will improve into a good player btw.

What "has happened has happened" I really hope lessons have been learnt for the future progress of the club.

[Campsall rover]

Or the attack...

I've been saying for months that we'd go down by 3-4 points. And in that light, playing Young Frankenstein up front for 20 appearances while Bogle was sidelined is simply unforgivable.

Just a couple of matches with someone up front who could have held the ball up and given some respite to the defence and a chance to build attacks would have made the difference.

This is true BST whilst Bogle was exiled it was a case of The Emperors New Clothes. And although a few of us were loudly shouting for this to end the Club stood by and watched complete public mistreatment of employees.

They did this at the same time as a huge supporter of CALM.

We had JC employed in a mental well being mentorship role; yet nothing was resolved until the Club fired Wellens.

The opportunity cost was huge & in my view the clubs public stance at the time was shameful.

Bogle was still the best centre forward we have had this season at the club; Reo, Cukur, Dodoo, Mipo, Hiwula, Agard haven't had the same impact as he did in games...all this and I still don't think Bogle was very good - but the best of the bunch.

Long term I see Reo as a talent that will improve into a good player btw.

What "has happened has happened" I really hope lessons have been learnt for the future progress of the club.

So should GB have told RW that Bogle had to be included in first team training, and the match day squad?

Or was Bogle causing a problem and was a negative influence?

Or should Wellens have been sacked as soon as this situation arose as he was the problem?

Or maybe the situation was discussed with RW and he made a good case for not including Bogle.

Or maybe GB simply decided RW is the manager and he makes decisions on the players and they did not want to interfere in playing matters?

There are a lot of possibles my fellow CR that you are not considering in your post.

We are not privy to what actually happened behind the scenes we can only speculate.
So to heavily criticise the club for their stance on this without knowing the facts is unfair.

Now I know nothing but having watched the pre season friendly at Harrogate and watched Bogle’s non performance and watched RW jumping up and down on the touch line shouting obscenities at Bogle and  Jones in particular.
So I think RW lost patience in Bogle because he wasn’t doing what he was being asked to do
( well not asked ) could not describe it as asked !!! 
RW had no patience, no tact, no man management skills and lost Bogle through his inability to manage people.
This is just my opinion others may disagree of course.

In the end though he had undisputedly lost the entire team as we saw in his last 2 games at Crewe and Burton.

So the only conclusion that is I can come to is Wellens should never have got the job in the first place.
And yes I was delighted when he was appointed as were very many of us supporters.
Hindsight eh it’s a wonderful thing.

Maybe he should have been sacked a month earlier. Maybe we would have stayed up if he had.

Maybe, Maybe, Maybe. Who knows. We don’t.

[bobbymax]

Incredible that technically our relegation "battle" has gone to the final day of the season.

I fear the Morecambe away game may come back to haunt us.

Funnily, I said this just the day after that debacle. Depressing that it's come true. It is truly shocking how bad the bottom six teams in League 1 have been this season.

[Bentley Bullet]

Or the attack...

I've been saying for months that we'd go down by 3-4 points. And in that light, playing Young Frankenstein up front for 20 appearances while Bogle was sidelined is simply unforgivable.

Just a couple of matches with someone up front who could have held the ball up and given some respite to the defence and a chance to build attacks would have made the difference.

This is true BST whilst Bogle was exiled it was a case of The Emperors New Clothes. And although a few of us were loudly shouting for this to end the Club stood by and watched complete public mistreatment of employees.

They did this at the same time as a huge supporter of CALM.

We had JC employed in a mental well being mentorship role; yet nothing was resolved until the Club fired Wellens.

The opportunity cost was huge & in my view the clubs public stance at the time was shameful.

Bogle was still the best centre forward we have had this season at the club; Reo, Cukur, Dodoo, Mipo, Hiwula, Agard haven't had the same impact as he did in games...all this and I still don't think Bogle was very good - but the best of the bunch.

Long term I see Reo as a talent that will improve into a good player btw.

What "has happened has happened" I really hope lessons have been learnt for the future progress of the club.

So should GB have told RW that Bogle had to be included in first team training, and the match day squad?

Or was Bogle causing a problem and was a negative influence?

Or should Wellens have been sacked as soon as this situation arose as he was the problem?

Or maybe the situation was discussed with RW and he made a good case for not including Bogle.

Or maybe GB simply decided RW is the manager and he makes decisions on the players and they did not want to interfere in playing matters?

There are a lot of possibles my fellow CR that you are not considering in your post.

We are not privy to what actually happened behind the scenes we can only speculate.
So to heavily criticise the club for their stance on this without knowing the facts is unfair.

Now I know nothing but having watched the pre season friendly at Harrogate and watched Bogle’s non performance and watched RW jumping up and down on the touch line shouting obscenities at Bogle and  Jones in particular.
So I think RW lost patience in Bogle because he wasn’t doing what he was being asked to do
( well not asked ) could not describe it as asked !!! 
RW had no patience, no tact, no man management skills and lost Bogle through his inability to manage people.
This is just my opinion others may disagree of course.

In the end though he had undisputedly lost the entire team as we saw in his last 2 games at Crewe and Burton.

So the only conclusion that is I can come to is Wellens should never have got the job in the first place.
And yes I was delighted when he was appointed as were very many of us supporters.
Hindsight eh it’s a wonderful thing.

Maybe he should have been sacked a month earlier. Maybe we would have stayed up if he had.

Maybe, Maybe, Maybe. Who knows. We don’t.

There have been far FAR higher-rated players than Bogle who have been banned from training with their club's first-team squad, by far FAR higher-rated managers than Wellens.

Personal vendettas should play no part in deciding the rights or wrongs of such decisions in the absence of actual facts.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The quality of the player and manager have nothing to do with this.

The only issue is WHY Bogle was sidelined.

There is no evidence that Bogle did anything worse than stick to his contract. There's been lots of speculation about his being a bad influence, but as far as I can see there has never been a speck of evidence to support that.

The fact that McSheffrey brought Bogle straight back into the first team squad says that he had no issues with Bogle's professionalism. So we can only conclude that the exclusion was a subjective decision by Wellens.

In that light, the Wellens interview with the YP just before Bogle was relegated to training with the juniors is illuminating. Wellens was clearly exasperated that Bogle didn't want to leave. He didn't give even the merest hint that Bogle had done anything that required disciplinary action such as exclusion from the first team squad.

With that background, the obvious conclusion is that Wellens demoted Bogle as a punishment for not leaving when he was told he wasn't wanted.

Which would make Wellens's management appalling on two levels:
1) Bullying a player for sticking to his contract.
2) Choosing to exclude the best striking option we had, resulting in us picking up 13 points from the first 20 games.

[Campsall rover]

The quality of the player and manager have nothing to do with this.

The only issue is WHY Bogle was sidelined.

There is no evidence that Bogle did anything worse than stick to his contract. There's been lots of speculation about his being a bad influence, but as far as I can see there has never been a speck of evidence to support that.

The fact that McSheffrey brought Bogle straight back into the first team squad says that he had no issues with Bogle's professionalism. So we can only conclude that the exclusion was a subjective decision by Wellens.

In that light, the Wellens interview with the YP just before Bogle was relegated to training with the juniors is illuminating. Wellens was clearly exasperated that Bogle didn't want to leave. He didn't give even the merest hint that Bogle had done anything that required disciplinary action such as exclusion from the first team squad.

With that background, the obvious conclusion is that Wellens demoted Bogle as a punishment for not leaving when he was told he wasn't wanted.

Which would make Wellens's management appalling on two levels:
1) Bullying a player for sticking to his contract.
2) Choosing to exclude the best striking option we had, resulting in us picking up 13 points from the first 20 games.

My gut feeling BST is they were not getting on before Wellens tried to off load him.
Then when Bogle refused to leave Wellens lost his rag and ostracised him.

All in all this can’t have helped team spirit. Quite the opposite. Very poor management in my book.
But I have criticised others for speculation so I realise I have left myself open to the same criticism.
So just to reiterate it is just my take on it and is nothing factual.

[Bentley Bullet]

If the quality of the player and manager has nothing to do with this, why are you so insistent that Bogle's quality would have kept us up?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I meant it has nothing to do with the justification of sidelining a player. A Messi or Ronaldo can be disciplined if they break club rules. A Bogle shouldn't be if he didn't.

[scawsby steve]

Incredible that technically our relegation "battle" has gone to the final day of the season.

I fear the Morecambe away game may come back to haunt us.

Well that…and the 6-0 away at Ipswich…and the 4-0 away at Cheltenham…and the 5-0 at home to Rotherham…and the 4-0 away at Charlton…

No case for the defence.

I can't let a day go by without a bit of pedantry, BigH; you forgot the 4-0 away at Portsmouth.

[Filo]

If the quality of the player and manager has nothing to do with this, why are you so insistent that Bogle's quality would have kept us up?

Bogle or Cukur?

Theres the issue

[steve@dcfd]

At league 1 level Bogle scored 3 goals in 27 games for us and 2 goals 17 at Charlton so for the 19 games while Richie was in charge then he may have got 3 goals if he had been really fit and could have played the way Richie wanted. Yes I think Richie made a mistake and as soon as the transfer window closed he should have been back in the squad. Would he have stopped the goals we conceded in Richie’s time and the goals we conceded while he played for GMC because that’s why we will be relegated as well. Our relegation is not all about Bogle who in the end did what suited him by getting a longer contract at another club.

[Campsall rover]

Incredible that technically our relegation "battle" has gone to the final day of the season.

I fear the Morecambe away game may come back to haunt us.

Well that…and the 6-0 away at Ipswich…and the 4-0 away at Cheltenham…and the 5-0 at home to Rotherham…and the 4-0 away at Charlton…

No case for the defence.

I can't let a day go by without a bit of pedantry, BigH; you forgot the 4-0 away at Portsmouth.

Trust you to remember that SS. 
I only remember the wins. It’s an awful lot easier SS as there are a heck of a lot less of them. 

[Bentley Bullet]

I meant it has nothing to do with the justification of sidelining a player. A Messi or Ronaldo can be disciplined if they break club rules. A Bogle shouldn't be if he didn't.

IF he didn't break club rules. But you don't know that he didn't break club rules. You are just using the scenario that he didn't break club rules because it suits your agenda of not wanting Wellens as manager in the first place.

[BillyStubbsTears]

There isn't a speck of evidence that he broke club rules. None whatsoever. Not a single word of a rumour has emerged to support that proposition. And If he DID break club rules, then McSheffrey obviously wasn't aware of it, because he brought him back into the fold immediately.

There IS evidence that Wellens was angry with Bogle for sticking to his contract, and immediately after going public with that anger, he stuck Bogle with the juniors.

Make your own mind up.

[Bentley Bullet]

So, because no evidence has been revealed that he broke club rules, he didn't break any? Maybe Wellens' claims of Bogle not obeying instructions were classed as not carrying out orders? And, if Wellens' decision to remove Bogle from the training ground was unfair, why didn't the owners step in?

McSheffrey, as the new manager, could wipe the slate clean without losing face, as Wellens surely would have had he relented and brought him back, even if he'd wanted to.

Notice McSheffrey didn't take Bogle off the transfer list!