Mutual defence Finland

[ravenrover]

Just wondering, is Johnson actually allowed to offer mutual protection agreements with other countries without the consent of Paliament?

[drfchound]

Has Johnson offered assistance off his own back though Raven?

[BobG]

Who else's back would he use Hound? A jocular response, but a serious question. If he hasn't got the support yet of Parliamient, who else has the power to offer what's been offered?

Cheers

BobG

[drfchound]

Who else's back would he use Hound? A jocular response, but a serious question. If he hasn't got the support yet of Parliamient, who else has the power to offer what's been offered?

Cheers

BobG

I don’t know Bob, that’s why I asked the question.
The news outlets usually say that the PM or the Chancellor has done this or the other but do they always make the decisions themselves?

[normal rules]

It’s a political declaration. Basically saying if Russia “do a Ukraine on you”, we will help. In the same way we are helping Ukraine. Especially during the transition period to full NATO membership which could take up to 12 months. During which time Finland and Sweden would be vulnerable, without article 5 protection.
I could not see anyone in parliament opposing such assistance.

[BobG]

Ah. Thank you NR!

Bob

[drfchound]

So, effectively Johnson has made the decision himself then.

[danumdon]

You would expect the chiefs of staff to have had some say in this matter, after all it would require them to make additional funds available to execute this.

I'd expect then to have been told that there will be additional funding in there along with another MOD review, lets hope any additional reviews recognise that the military has gone beyond critical mass for a fighting force and needs supplementing ASAP.

[BobG]

Err, I';m sorry DD. I don't understand that. If the UK military is 'beyond critical mass' why does it need 'supplementing asap'? By defintion it's big enpugh already surely?

Cheers!

BobG

[Dutch Uncle]

Bob, I guess in the understood context of declining troop numbers up till now we have gone beyond the line (i.e. below the line given the downward direction) of critical mass to meet capabilities required.

[ravenrover]

It’s a political declaration. Basically saying if Russia “do a Ukraine on you”, we will help. In the same way we are helping Ukraine. Especially during the transition period to full NATO membership which could take up to 12 months. During which time Finland and Sweden would be vulnerable, without article 5 protection.
I could not see anyone in parliament opposing such assistance.

As I understood it it's not just supply of weaponry, though have I got that wrong?

[normal rules]

I’m unsure there was any detail to the pact.
Weapons supply, possibly.
Troop supply possibly.
Intelligence assistance, most definitely.
Financial support, possibly.
On the subject of troops. These are countries that have had conscription, so there are very healthy numbers of reservists on tap should the need arise.

[wilts rover]

Just reminding people that the UK were one of the singatories to the Budapest Memorandum promising to guarantee Ukraine independence and sovereignty should it ever be attacked.

Good luck to Finland holding Johnson to his word - I think they might find he has a different interpreation of what he has signed to what they do...

[danumdon]

Just reminding people that the UK were one of the singatories to the Budapest Memorandum promising to guarantee Ukraine independence and sovereignty should it ever be attacked.

Good luck to Finland holding Johnson to his word - I think they might find he has a different interpreation of what he has signed to what they do...

Why does it always have to be the case that a crass comment has to be delivered, even when the government attempts to do the right thing.

They can't be right for doing wrong, even when their right. Is it like some reflex thing that you people have to pursue in case the government does something that might make people think its got some semblance of competence.

Or are you afraid that the country may just be seen on the world stage as standing up for the little man, unlike some other noticeable exceptions in Europe.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Seems to be at the most more hot air from Johnson.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/united-kingdom-finland-statement-11-may-2022/united-kingdom-finland-statement

[wilts rover]

Just reminding people that the UK were one of the singatories to the Budapest Memorandum promising to guarantee Ukraine independence and sovereignty should it ever be attacked.

Good luck to Finland holding Johnson to his word - I think they might find he has a different interpreation of what he has signed to what they do...

Why does it always have to be the case that a crass comment has to be delivered, even when the government attempts to do the right thing.

They can't be right for doing wrong, even when their right. Is it like some reflex thing that you people have to pursue in case the government does something that might make people think its got some semblance of competence.

Or are you afraid that the country may just be seen on the world stage as standing up for the little man, unlike some other noticeable exceptions in Europe.

Because I am stating facts. If you can't tell political spin from reality then thats not my fault.

No British member of the British Armed Forces will be going to defend Finland against a Russian invasion unless they are part of a NATO force - I can tell you that for nothing. And no NATO force will be going to Finland unless America wants it to.

Just as we refused to send any partical help to Ukraine despite our treaty obligation.to them.

This is a message entirely for domestic consumption intended to boost Johnson's failing credibility amongst the guilable at home. It worked.

[danumdon]

Just reminding people that the UK were one of the singatories to the Budapest Memorandum promising to guarantee Ukraine independence and sovereignty should it ever be attacked.

Good luck to Finland holding Johnson to his word - I think they might find he has a different interpreation of what he has signed to what they do...

Why does it always have to be the case that a crass comment has to be delivered, even when the government attempts to do the right thing.

They can't be right for doing wrong, even when their right. Is it like some reflex thing that you people have to pursue in case the government does something that might make people think its got some semblance of competence.

Or are you afraid that the country may just be seen on the world stage as standing up for the little man, unlike some other noticeable exceptions in Europe.

Because I am stating facts. If you can't tell political spin from reality then thats not my fault.

No British member of the British Armed Forces will be going to defend Finland against a Russian invasion unless they are part of a NATO force - I can tell you that for nothing. And no NATO force will be going to Finland unless America wants it to.

Just as we refused to send any partical help to Ukraine despite our treaty obligation.to them.

This is a message entirely for domestic consumption intended to boost Johnson's failing credibility amongst the guilable at home. It worked.

So you boasted to have some "facts" then proceeded to produce none. You then produce a lengthy diatribe about what YOU think because it suits your narrative.

I don't see any facts but i see plenty of bluster.

Not unexpected

[wilts rover]

Just reminding people that the UK were one of the singatories to the Budapest Memorandum promising to guarantee Ukraine independence and sovereignty should it ever be attacked.

Good luck to Finland holding Johnson to his word - I think they might find he has a different interpreation of what he has signed to what they do...

Why does it always have to be the case that a crass comment has to be delivered, even when the government attempts to do the right thing.

They can't be right for doing wrong, even when their right. Is it like some reflex thing that you people have to pursue in case the government does something that might make people think its got some semblance of competence.

Or are you afraid that the country may just be seen on the world stage as standing up for the little man, unlike some other noticeable exceptions in Europe.

Because I am stating facts. If you can't tell political spin from reality then thats not my fault.

No British member of the British Armed Forces will be going to defend Finland against a Russian invasion unless they are part of a NATO force - I can tell you that for nothing. And no NATO force will be going to Finland unless America wants it to.

Just as we refused to send any partical help to Ukraine despite our treaty obligation.to them.

This is a message entirely for domestic consumption intended to boost Johnson's failing credibility amongst the guilable at home. It worked.

So you boasted to have some "facts" then proceeded to produce none. You then produce a lengthy diatribe about what YOU think because it suits your narrative.

I don't see any facts but i see plenty of bluster.

Not unexpected

Did you miss this?

Just reminding people that the UK were one of the singatories to the Budapest Memorandum promising to guarantee Ukraine independence and sovereignty should it ever be attacked.

Good luck to Finland holding Johnson to his word - I think they might find he has a different interpreation of what he has signed to what they do...

We promised Ukraine we would assist in it's defence should it's sovereignty be threated - Johnson hasn't.

If his attempt to distract people away from his lockdown breaking parties and his failure to deal with the cost of living crisis mean we have become one of the biggest suppliers of military aid to Ukraine - good.

But I find the willingness of his supporters to believe anything he says without analysing it, in the light of all his previous promises and actions, similar to victims of email scams. However much money they loose they keep sending more because he is really genuine and truthful .... honestly ...

[danumdon]

The promise we made to assist in the defence of Ukraine was made alongside the USA and the Russians, it was not envisaged at the time that one of the co sponsors would be the one doing the invading. This puts a completely different slant on the whole geo-political nature of the accord, which requires a different approach to dealing with this situation. To go into Ukraine gung-ho would inevitably create the possibility of nuclear annihilation, This is not just our thinking but also the Americans. Only a complete fool would follow up your assertion.

Why you feel the need to attach what's been happening in this country over the last decade to the present emergency situation in Ukraine just highlights how desperate you are to paint everything in tribal colours, very sad but like i said, expected. The fact that this country is leading Europe's efforts to bring this situation into some sort of controlled normality is just not what you want to see or hear because of your extreme political prejudices.

The fact you need to reconcile me with anything Jonhnson says or does is a weak pathetic sop from a typically left wing attitude that needs to feel that everyone's opinion is inferior if it doesn't fit your biased narrative, as is your belief that people are taken in by any politicians machinations.

But then i shouldn't be expecting anything different from you.

[SydneyRover]

Well, not speaking for wilts here but anyone that takes johnson's word as his bond is a fool wouldn't you think?

[danumdon]

Well, not speaking for wilts here but anyone that takes johnson's word as his bond is a fool wouldn't you think?

Maybe you need someone to read you the last paragraph again as it obviously bypassed you as well a your mate.

Must be a lefty thing.

[SydneyRover]

You would expect the chiefs of staff to have had some say in this matter, after all it would require them to make additional funds available to execute this.

I'd expect then to have been told that there will be additional funding in there along with another MOD review, lets hope any additional reviews recognise that the military has gone beyond critical mass for a fighting force and needs supplementing ASAP.

''Maybe you need someone to read you the last paragraph again as it obviously bypassed you as well a your mate.

Must be a lefty thing''


You expect too much methinks, you were referring to the great man I take it?

[Dutch Uncle]

Just reminding people that the UK were one of the singatories to the Budapest Memorandum promising to guarantee Ukraine independence and sovereignty should it ever be attacked.

Good luck to Finland holding Johnson to his word - I think they might find he has a different interpreation of what he has signed to what they do...

Why does it always have to be the case that a crass comment has to be delivered, even when the government attempts to do the right thing.

They can't be right for doing wrong, even when their right. Is it like some reflex thing that you people have to pursue in case the government does something that might make people think its got some semblance of competence.

Or are you afraid that the country may just be seen on the world stage as standing up for the little man, unlike some other noticeable exceptions in Europe.

Because I am stating facts. If you can't tell political spin from reality then thats not my fault.

No British member of the British Armed Forces will be going to defend Finland against a Russian invasion unless they are part of a NATO force - I can tell you that for nothing. And no NATO force will be going to Finland unless America wants it to.

Just as we refused to send any partical help to Ukraine despite our treaty obligation.to them.

This is a message entirely for domestic consumption intended to boost Johnson's failing credibility amongst the guilable at home. It worked.

Just a note that your statement 'And no NATO force will be going to Finland unless America wants it to' is a tautology.

Any NATO decision to launch any operation requires unanimous support of all NATO Nations at National Leader (or designated deputy) level in the North Atlantic Council. That means any NATO nation can block any operation. Iceland or Luxembourg has the power to stop it. Possibly more interestingly so do Hungary and Turkey.

When France opposed NATO action in the Gulf, the US, UK and a number of other nations, including non NATO nations like Israel formed an ad-hoc coalition and launched the operation. Meanwhile the Americans tried to rename French Fries to 'Freedom Fries'

Of course it is true that the Coalition followed NATO procedures, without which no multi-national operation would have been successful.

NATO does not have any forces other than some E-3 AWACS aircraft. What NATO does have is a huge number of standards defined and accepted for interoperability (Standing Agreements or STANAGs). These cover everything from size of artillery shell, type of jet fuel, IT and Communication interoperability standards including data formats, and simple things like the agreed 3 letter codes for each nation. All these plus joint exercises enable nations to operate together efficiently.

Just trying to explain what NATO is and is not. I agree with your assessment of Johnson's visit and purpose.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Finland formally applies to join NATO.

Absolute disaster for Putin's imperialist ambitions.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Finland formally applies to join NATO.

Absolute disaster for Putin's imperialist ambitions.

And equally you could say a sucess for the USA's imperialist ambitions.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You could. If you are utterly determined to see everything through that prism. Equally, you could say that it's an expression of a free, democratic country to throw its lot in with a free association of other, free, democratic countries, and rid itself of a neighbour that has dominated their politics for a century.

Your call.

[SydneyRover]

''A SHORT HISTORY OF NATO''

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/declassified_139339.htm

Please feel free to point out anything incorrect or missing