Upcoming rail strikes

[BobG]

DD: The husband of my cousin has worked for RR at Filton for nigh on 40 years. He is an expert in jet engine technology, development, maintenance and support. He is so indispensable that RR have offered him a golden hello to stay on beyond his retirement age. If he accepts it, which he is thinking about right now, he will still be paying income tax at 20%. I think your remunerative fantasies are a bit overblown....

BobG

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I feel there's a simple answer if they want to tie it to inflation do so, but on that principle if inflation goes negative pay would too?

I can see both sides.  If costs are high you can't just keep it going forever you have to cut the costs somehow.  It's either save money or increase fees and fares.

Can you remind me, please, BFYP, the last time there was negative inflation in this country? Technically, your point is valid, but in the real world, where people actually work, it is specious.

BobG

2015 or something like that I think. It is very rare but it is very much possible in the current environment that we'll see it for a period of time.  Do we really think 9% pay rises would be sensible?  Note my company did 3% this year which seamt fair.

If I was in government I'd go with a tax cut alongside pay rises.  That's a more meaningful tax cut and pay rise then.

The working British public have suffered wage deflation for years, pud.  Not seen any balancing being done by this Tory government to counter it.

Look at taxes and allowances since 2010 clearly there has been some.  But you are correct public sector wise there hasn't been rises in line with inflation.

It's not for the government to determine the pay rises of private companies though.

[BobG]

Ever heard of Prices and Incomes policy BFYP? Very popular at one time still well within living memory. That was government determining "the pay rises of private companies". The position you quoted is only a fashion. Just as Prices and Incomes policies were. They are both right in their time, both wrong at other times, and both immutably real. And if you think further, governments today still play a very large role in determining private sector pay awards. Unofficial, of course, but it's there all the same.

Oh. If inflation becomes embedded, if pay rises chasing inflation chasing cost increases chasing pay rises enter our lives again, just watch Prices and Incomes policy come back into favour!

BobG

[no eyed deer]

Nicked from the interweb but very true all the same:

Fixing strikes is Labour's job
Fixing Brexit is the EU's job
Fixing inflation is Putin's job
Fixing cost of living is workers' job
Fixing housing is immigrants' job
And fixing immigration is Rwanda's job

But we have to keep Boris, cos he gets things done.

https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/status/1539260920693772289


Lol... this sums up the Conservatives.

When you have a racist, womanising buffoon.... worry for our future.

[SydneyRover]

Starmer will serve the unions better by winning the next election rather than giving the media another rod.

How does looking like a dithering wet wipe help labour win power? Poll out today says the majority think the strikes are justified. An even larger majority thinks it's the government's fault. And he's the leader of the LABOUR party! So he's out of touch with just about everyone he's supposed to represent with this bizarre stance.

I'm sure much of this is coming from Mandelson and the other right wing ghouls infesting the LOTO office. But still.

Maybe you could stay with what I said rather than what you think I said. Whatever the majority think today will be ok provided they take it to the ballot box.

[danumdon]

DD: The husband of my cousin has worked for RR at Filton for nigh on 40 years. He is an expert in jet engine technology, development, maintenance and support. He is so indispensable that RR have offered him a golden hello to stay on beyond his retirement age. If he accepts it, which he is thinking about right now, he will still be paying income tax at 20%. I think your remunerative fantasies are a bit overblown....

BobG

All i can say to that anecdote Bob is i'm absolutely gobsmacked. Ive looked up your fact and the best i could come up with was average salary's for aerospace engineers at RR was 45k? Your cousins husband sounds like an intelligent fella but i've got to say he's been in the wrong engineering sector if he's earning under 50k

Just as a comparison, we pay our trainee electrical/mechanical engineers (level3)43k to start with, on completion of basic training and some progression(level 4 HNC) they earn 62k basic. If they can pass psychometric testing they can progress to roles with 72k basic.

[selby]

  I can remember that Bob, it was instigated by Callaghan's Labour government making a 9% rise the maximum pay award.
  It coincided with the Ford motor company introducing the mark 3 I think cortina and a new escort that were the must have cars of the time and ford were flat out in production.
  The workforce wanted a piece of it, and the company were willing to pay a 14% increase, that the government said no to in short (9 was the maximum).
  The Tory opposition jumped on it and Thatcher gave a speech that if a company wanted and were able to pay over the 9%  they should be able to do so, and backed the workforce union to strike to obtain the 14%
  It caused the vote of no confidence in the Labour Government and the government was defeated and Maggie was installed as the new prime minister at the election with some notable labour MP's voting against the government, totally out manoeuvred by the Tories and the Unions, the working man bringing down the working man.
   Labour rebels and the Unions opened the door to the war on unions, many industries left these shores for cheaper labour elsewhere as transport and air travel shrank the world as never before.
   But the main lesson was the working man's greed bringing down the working man and the self destruction of strong unions in the UK.
   It is happening again, the Tories are after the destruction of the Labour opposition this time, and really I can see them falling for it and self destructing again.

[BobG]

A lot of truth in that Selby. The Prices and Incomes policy was shot out of the water in the end, but it lasted a fair while before that happened. I'm not so sure about greed this time though. The whole point of 40 years of Conservative anti strike legislation has been to make strikes bloody hard to get approval for, and, to prevent any militant group swamping the voting and so bringing the silent majority into any conflict that militants might want. We all know that that is how many strikes used to be engineered. So for a strike today to be approved by a huge proportion of a huge industry you really do have to believe that there is something fundamentally wrong in that industry, How else could such a nationwide strike be approved? So, I tend to think that greed isn't the be all and end all in the current situation. There's something else that is driving this strike.

BobG

[Ldr]

The ministry of truth lot on here won’t like to admit that Bob/Selby

[selby]

  From 1992 the labour party canvassed on a minimum wage being introduced.the single worst decision for skilled workers and employees in well paid jobs in this country when labour eventually introduced it in 2008.
  I can always remember an old lad saying " that will become the norm" and a base rate was born that a lot of employers were determined to work to, knowing the government would take up the slack to a living wage on benefits, an unofficial subsidy from the government for every minimum wage employee in the land to the emplyer paying the minimum.
  Old Roy knew what would happen, can't say I took that much notice of it at the time, but it has been a disaster combined with zero hour contracts.
  Labour have not been very clever when they have been in power, and have usually lost it arguing among themselves.

[wilts rover]

Report out today by the Resolution Foundation that every British worker will be £470 per year worse off because of Johnson's Brexit Deal.

This also is due to Labour Party policy 30 years ago. (and before you start arguing to say it doesn't say that - I made that bit up just to parody Selby)

https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/the-big-brexit/

[ravenrover]

After repeatedly denying any involvement in this dispute it now seems Schnaps has been telllling a nice big porkie. The train companies cannot approve any pay offer without the approval of Schnaps, in it up to his neck just like his leader. Can none of this twisted lot in The Cabinet tell the truth?

[BillyStubbsTears]

  From 1992 the labour party canvassed on a minimum wage being introduced.the single worst decision for skilled workers and employees in well paid jobs in this country when labour eventually introduced it in 2008.
  I can always remember an old lad saying " that will become the norm" and a base rate was born that a lot of employers were determined to work to, knowing the government would take up the slack to a living wage on benefits, an unofficial subsidy from the government for every minimum wage employee in the land to the emplyer paying the minimum.
  Old Roy knew what would happen, can't say I took that much notice of it at the time, but it has been a disaster combined with zero hour contracts.
  Labour have not been very clever when they have been in power, and have usually lost it arguing among themselves.

Utter and complete b*llocks.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And talking about b*llocks, this is simply f**king stupid from Labour.

https://mobile.twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1541002372381642752

This will bring Starmer down. Absolutely f**king stupid.

[danumdon]

Typical, the incompetent government gave Starmer a massive opportunity to differentiate himself from their mendacious and sneaky trick in dealing with this industrial dispute.

What does Starmer do, dithers and sits on his hands, meanwhile Davis Lammy gets sent out to explain that they are serious about being in government so they will not be seen to attempt any conciliation with the union or Gov,

Ok, so that's clear then, you stand for nothing and will not intervene in case you get found out for being useless and ineffective.

Yep, voters falling all over themselves to agree with this none interventionist party.

[Not Now Kato]

He appears to be trying to appeal to dissatisfied Tory Party voters  to the prejudice of traditional Labour Party voters!  Not a bright move.

[danumdon]

The fact that he's a massive hypocrite goes without question.

Hypocritical politicians always out themselves in the end.

[MachoMadness]

And talking about b*llocks, this is simply f**king stupid from Labour.

https://mobile.twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1541002372381642752

This will bring Starmer down. Absolutely f**king stupid.

I cannot fathom what the endgame of this line is. So desperate to be seen as responsible that they support pay cuts for workers. It's nonsense. And the thing about the Heathrow strike is that the main thing they want is for the 10% cut they faced during the pandemic is reversed. That's it. So yeah, it's a 10% 'rise' but in context all they want is a slightly less severe pay cut in real terms. Lammy is being dishonest omitting this detail.

I understand the need to distance themselves from the Corbyn years, I really do. But this is such an own goal.

[BillyStubbsTears]

MM
Agreed 100%

[Ldr]

And talking about b*llocks, this is simply f**king stupid from Labour.

https://mobile.twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1541002372381642752

This will bring Starmer down. Absolutely f**king stupid.

I cannot fathom what the endgame of this line is. So desperate to be seen as responsible that they support pay cuts for workers. It's nonsense. And the thing about the Heathrow strike is that the main thing they want is for the 10% cut they faced during the pandemic is reversed. That's it. So yeah, it's a 10% 'rise' but in context all they want is a slightly less severe pay cut in real terms. Lammy is being dishonest omitting this detail.

I understand the need to distance themselves from the Corbyn years, I really do. But this is such an own goal.

The older I get the more socialist I think, 100% in agreement MM

[wilts rover]

And talking about b*llocks, this is simply f**king stupid from Labour.

https://mobile.twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1541002372381642752

This will bring Starmer down. Absolutely f**king stupid.

I cannot fathom what the endgame of this line is. So desperate to be seen as responsible that they support pay cuts for workers. It's nonsense. And the thing about the Heathrow strike is that the main thing they want is for the 10% cut they faced during the pandemic is reversed. That's it. So yeah, it's a 10% 'rise' but in context all they want is a slightly less severe pay cut in real terms. Lammy is being dishonest omitting this detail.

I understand the need to distance themselves from the Corbyn years, I really do. But this is such an own goal.

The older I get the more socialist I think, 100% in agreement MM

From some of your more recent posts Ldr you are certainly more socialist than those people currently leading the Labour Party. And more sensible.

[Filo]

And talking about b*llocks, this is simply f**king stupid from Labour.

https://mobile.twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1541002372381642752

This will bring Starmer down. Absolutely f**king stupid.

I cannot fathom what the endgame of this line is. So desperate to be seen as responsible that they support pay cuts for workers. It's nonsense. And the thing about the Heathrow strike is that the main thing they want is for the 10% cut they faced during the pandemic is reversed. That's it. So yeah, it's a 10% 'rise' but in context all they want is a slightly less severe pay cut in real terms. Lammy is being dishonest omitting this detail.

I understand the need to distance themselves from the Corbyn years, I really do. But this is such an own goal.

The worst Govt in living memory and the opposition keep on shooting themselves in the foot, it’s crazy, someone in the party needs to get a grip of it

[tyke1962]

And talking about b*llocks, this is simply f**king stupid from Labour.

https://mobile.twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/1541002372381642752

This will bring Starmer down. Absolutely f**king stupid.

I cannot fathom what the endgame of this line is. So desperate to be seen as responsible that they support pay cuts for workers. It's nonsense. And the thing about the Heathrow strike is that the main thing they want is for the 10% cut they faced during the pandemic is reversed. That's it. So yeah, it's a 10% 'rise' but in context all they want is a slightly less severe pay cut in real terms. Lammy is being dishonest omitting this detail.

I understand the need to distance themselves from the Corbyn years, I really do. But this is such an own goal.

The worst Govt in living memory and the opposition keep on shooting themselves in the foot, it’s crazy, someone in the party needs to get a grip of it

There are events that transpire to form a " perfect storm " to the leader of the opposition to cash in on .

It's beyond utter belief that Keith cannot seize and recognise the moment to make his mark .

Your the leader of the Labour Party " you complete and utter f**kwit "

Dig down in to the weeds on this thing , Keith threatens to discipline any of his front bench who go and support the RMT on a picket line , what does that mean ?

It means he doesn't agree with strike action to try and protect your wages and conditions whilst the fat cats and shareholders take what ever they desire .

Are you for fecking real Keith ?

Then another soft shyte ( when it suits mind ) Lammy decides to announce the Party doesn't support strike action at the Heathrow airport dispute .

Just how absolutely disconnected is it possible to be ?

Does the entire country have to be on strike before the penny drops Keith ?

Wait a while that may happen yet .

This isn't 1979 or even 1984/85 it's now you complete t@sser .

[Colemans Left Hook]

by chance I had to google the "TUC" today (as you do) and wondered what had happened to the TUC since 1968  !!!!!

i just happened to see a speech by "his nibs" made in 2021

 
https://www.tuc.org.uk/speeches/labour-leader-keir-starmers-speech-tuc-congress-2021

here is the speech make of it what you want

"

Check against delivery

Thank you Gail, and thank you to Frances for inviting me to speak today and for your continued leadership and support.

When I spoke to you last year, it was from my attic.

This year, I’m at least speaking from a podium.

With any luck, next year I will finally be able to address you all in person.

I want to congratulate our new generation of union leaders, elected in the past year or so:

Paul Fleming (Equity); Christina McAnea (Unison); Gary Smith (GMB), and most recently Sharon Graham.

And with no disrespect to Gary or Paul, can I say how welcome it is to have two female General Secretaries leading major unions.

Women are in the majority in many key worker sectors, and it is hugely encouraging to see women increasingly leading from the front at the head of our major trade union organisations.

It is of course those key workers – your members – who we all have to thank for displaying the dedication, strength and hard work to get us through the pandemic.

And while our key workers pulled us through, unions have been by their side every step of the way. I particularly want to pay tribute to:

- USDAW’s continuing Freedom from Fear campaign against violence and abuse towards shopworkers;

- The FBU negotiating a collective agreement for firefighters, enabling them to deliver essential items like food and medicine to vulnerable people, drive ambulances, and assist ambulance staff - demonstrating why collective bargaining is such a fundamental principle of strong, positive industrial relations.

- The GMB’s incredible campaign in support of their engineers working for British Gas - many of whom risked their own health during the pandemic to enter the homes of elderly and vulnerable residents to ensure they had heat during the winter - only to be threatened with the despicable practice of Fire and Rehire

- And health and safety reps across the union movement, who have been indispensable, ensuring safety at work at a time when guidance from the Government has been confused and contradictory.

And there are many more examples.

In this time of national crisis, the labour movement has demonstrated why it is more important now than ever.

Why it needs to have a role when decisions are made, from the workplace to the national level.

And it’s why more workers are joining unions, because they know that unions will have their backs.

But what has the Government done for those key workers, the heroes of the pandemic?

- 1 in 10 at risk of fire and rehire;

- A cut of £1,000 a year in the incomes of working families on Universal Credit;

-  A broken promise on national insurance, raising taxes on working people;

- Failure over 18 months to increase sick pay, putting workers in the impossible position of choosing between going to work and feeding their family, or isolating at home and protecting our public health;

- And an unjust pay cut for our key workers in the public sector.

Carers, teaching staff, police officers. This is the thanks they get from the Conservatives.

We’ve had a summer of chaos, where at every turn the incompetence, complacency and lack of leadership from Boris Johnson has created unfair outcomes for everyone else.

An exams crisis for the second year in a row, asking teachers to pick up after the Government’s mess, and resulting in state school pupils falling further behind their private school peers.

A failure to prepare for the lack of HGV drivers, with the Government dismissing warnings as “crying wolf,” while retailers from supermarkets to fast food restaurants report shortages not seen for decades.

Nowhere has the chaotic approach of this Prime Minister been seen more starkly than in Afghanistan.

He had 18 months to plan, yet hundreds of those Afghans who stood by Britain, protected our officials, and worked with our troops have been let down and left behind.

And while the Conservatives hand out contracts to their donors and friends, there’s no such generosity for everyone else:

- Record numbers of children in poverty;

- 1 in 5 workers in insecure work;

- Wages down £1,000 in real terms over the past decade.

After all we have been through these past 18 months, this cannot be how we go on.

Instead, let us work together to secure a better deal for working people.

I want to thank our affiliated unions for their efforts and their contributions in helping to develop Labour’s new deal for workers. Building our shared vision for a better future.

When I think about what that new deal for workers needs to look like, I think of my Dad.

He’d go to work every day at 8 in the morning, come home for his tea at 5, and then back to work, 6 til 10 in the evening, 5 days a week.

He worked on the factory floor all his life.

I think about what he would want, what his aspirations were, and how they could have been realised.

Dad worked so hard so that he could provide for our family.

Everyone should be able to get a job that you can raise a family on.

For a start, that means a real living wage.

Labour would immediately increase the minimum wage to at least £10 an hour.

For a carer on the minimum wage, that’s a pay rise of £2,500 a year.

And we would ensure a greater role for unions in boosting pay, with more workers covered by collectively agreed deals.

A job that you can raise a family on must offer security and certainty.

Not worrying about how many hours you’ll be given next week or how you’ll pay the bills if you fall ill.

Labour will provide that security, ensuring rights for all workers from their first day of the job, including holiday pay, protection against unfair dismissal and guaranteed sick pay.

We have one of the lowest rates of sick pay in Europe.

It’s not good enough and it’s a failure to learn the lessons of the pandemic.

So as well as ensuring all workers are eligible for sick pay, Labour are committed to increasing it.

And we will give workers the job security and pay security they need to plan their household budget, by banning zero hours contracts.

Instead, workers should be provided with a regular contract that reflects their normal hours and allows them to plan ahead.

Raising a family is also about being there, spending time with them.

That ought to mean paid parental leave for all workers and the right to flexible working.

Work should fit around people’s lives, not dictate their lives.

It’s a right that should be there from the first day in employment, and that’s what our new deal would provide.

My Dad took real pride in his work.

He was an incredibly skilled toolmaker.

Yet he felt he wasn’t treated with the dignity he deserved, because he was a factory worker.

I won’t tolerate a lack of respect for those who don’t go to university.

And a Labour government under my leadership will strive for better prospects and dignity for all workers, not just those with a degree.

We’ll do it by supporting industries that create quality jobs.

By buying, making and selling more here in Britain.

We should be giving more public contracts to British companies, big and small.

It cannot be right that just one UK-based firm was shortlisted for billions of pounds worth of HS2 contracts, with the other shortlisted firms all based overseas.

Visiting a wind farm in Scotland this summer, I was told that the turbines are shipped across from Indonesia, 7,000 miles away.

Another sign of the Government’s failure to back British manufacturers, local economies, and jobs.

These are the jobs of the future, and we need them here in Britain.

That’s why we have a plan to Buy, Make, and Sell more in Britain.

And that’s why as a first step in our Green New Deal we’ve been arguing for £30 billion of new investment to create 400,000 green jobs in manufacturing and low carbon industries.

I see no conflict between tackling the climate crisis and protecting and delivering more well-paid, skilled jobs.

Cutting our carbon emissions is an urgent necessity, and it can spark the level of job creation and training programmes that our economy needs.

And trade unions have a key role to play in building and delivering on the national retraining strategy we need to fill those new roles.

It is the Labour Party that I lead that understands what needs to be done and why this matters. You see, I worked with the NUM in the courts to prevent the Tories’ pit closures.

I saw the pain caused when communities were faced with losing their industry, their jobs, their purpose.

It was utterly shameful of Boris Johnson to make jokes about shutting down coal mines.

And it showed just how out of touch this Prime Minister is.

When it comes to dignity at work - the theme of this Congress - nothing sums up the problem more clearly than the appalling practice of fire and rehire.

A cheap trick to get around the law and cheat workers out of the pay and conditions they have earned.

It’s no surprise to see a boom in this practice after a decade of Conservative Governments undermining workers’ rights, cutting enforcement, and allowing the gig economy to spiral.

I’m proud that Labour is standing shoulder to shoulder with the unions, campaigning against this unfair practice.

We’ve arranged opposition day debates;

We’ve put down amendments;

And Labour MPs have fought to introduce the legislation in Parliament to ban fire and rehire.

But neither our party, nor our movement, has yet been successful in defeating it outright.

Because the truth is until we have a Labour government, Congress, our ability to deliver the transformational change that we all know is necessary will be frustrated.

It is why our Party was created.

Look at the principle written into our constitution.

“By the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone.”

You know it to be true when it comes to the workplace.

It is why Unite was able to prevent the fire and rehire of British Airways workers, and GMB to win its historic deal for Uber drivers.

It is the belief that drove me to represent the print workers in the Wapping dispute, and the dockers against P&O.

The principle is just as true in the political arena.

But we have lost the last four elections, and if we don’t change then we won’t be in a position to deliver the new deal that workers in Britain, your members, deserve.

We have an obligation to them to unite and work together. If we do, we can face down the challenge from this right-wing government, and be ready to fight the next general election.

That work starts at our party conference, where I will be spelling out my vision for the country and setting out the direction Labour will take to win the next election, so we can deliver for working people.

Thank you."
 

[rich1471]

Well the next strike action announced is on the 30th July ,lots of football fans will have already booked tickets to get to matches could cause a few problems