Club Finances

[swintonrover]

Thank goodness we have a well run club. Yes, the results on the pitch were shocking last season, but I feel certain the real pain for those clubs who didn’t budget correctly has yet to be revealed. Well done Rovers.

You are correct in your views about a well run club . But not a well run Football Club on the pitch  . Too many managerial mistakes with a deaf dumb and blind approach to player requirement . I hope we do well this season as another failing season will not be stomached . RTiD 

So you’re admitting that GB has done a good job then ?

On the Pitch IS GBs domain , he sets out he rules and wages , he allows the manager his own space and it’s was down to him Wellens left us in the relegation fight we lost . But I’ve never felt the clubs day to day operations were ever in jeopardy. But WE all could see the righting on the wall where the players were concerned !

And that's why they took the decision to sack Wellens. For right or wrong they made the big decisions and allowed the football manager to make football decisions. They've got it right in the past and hopefully it's right again this time.

Hindsight is wonderful thing , but experience is earned and when a club looses good mangers but each time leaving the club in a good place. So the next experienced manager need only keep the wheels on the bus  to get the plaudits and maintain any progress and keep our league status. But what did GB and Co do , give it too 3 novices in a row and then reap the reward of poor decisions and gambles.

Stop with this narrative that Wellens was an amateur, he'd been managing for 4 years before joining us and had won a League title and the Football League Trophy. On paper he was a reasonably solid candidate without the ex-player factor. Yes, it went to shit, but that was for other reasons.

[Glyn_Wigley]

He won’t listen SM, he’s so blinkered in his dislike for Gavin that no amount of evidence will ever sway him. I can’t say that I have ever seen a single positive post from him, when things are going well he disappears.

He's watching this thread right now but I bet he doesn't have the balls to acknowledge SM's post.

Told you!

[since-1969]

You’ll be blaming GB for the amount of injuries last season too.. imagine how different the season could have gone bad Wellens had all his squad fit and ready last august..  but no, there has to be an agenda with some!!

No I’m not , just for the poor decisions relating to passing responsibilities  for ALL  football related issues to a completed set of amateurs . But as there is little that can be done about it and like Boris Johnson , he isn’t falling on his sward . So I’ll just put my faith in a new season and give McSheffrey a clean slate .

[since-1969]

Thank goodness we have a well run club. Yes, the results on the pitch were shocking last season, but I feel certain the real pain for those clubs who didn’t budget correctly has yet to be revealed. Well done Rovers.

You are correct in your views about a well run club . But not a well run Football Club on the pitch  . Too many managerial mistakes with a deaf dumb and blind approach to player requirement . I hope we do well this season as another failing season will not be stomached . RTiD 

So you’re admitting that GB has done a good job then ?

On the Pitch IS GBs domain , he sets out he rules and wages , he allows the manager his own space and it’s was down to him Wellens left us in the relegation fight we lost . But I’ve never felt the clubs day to day operations were ever in jeopardy. But WE all could see the righting on the wall where the players were concerned !

And that's why they took the decision to sack Wellens. For right or wrong they made the big decisions and allowed the football manager to make football decisions. They've got it right in the past and hopefully it's right again this time.

Hindsight is wonderful thing , but experience is earned and when a club looses good mangers but each time leaving the club in a good place. So the next experienced manager need only keep the wheels on the bus  to get the plaudits and maintain any progress and keep our league status. But what did GB and Co do , give it too 3 novices in a row and then reap the reward of poor decisions and gambles.

Stop with this narrative that Wellens was an amateur, he'd been managing for 4 years before joining us and had won a League title and the Football League Trophy. On paper he was a reasonably solid candidate without the ex-player factor. Yes, it went to shit, but that was for other reasons.

The only thing Wellens achieved was being sacked ever where he went !!

[DearneValleyRover]

Thank goodness we have a well run club. Yes, the results on the pitch were shocking last season, but I feel certain the real pain for those clubs who didn’t budget correctly has yet to be revealed. Well done Rovers.

You are correct in your views about a well run club . But not a well run Football Club on the pitch  . Too many managerial mistakes with a deaf dumb and blind approach to player requirement . I hope we do well this season as another failing season will not be stomached . RTiD 

So you’re admitting that GB has done a good job then ?

On the Pitch IS GBs domain , he sets out he rules and wages , he allows the manager his own space and it’s was down to him Wellens left us in the relegation fight we lost . But I’ve never felt the clubs day to day operations were ever in jeopardy. But WE all could see the righting on the wall where the players were concerned !

And that's why they took the decision to sack Wellens. For right or wrong they made the big decisions and allowed the football manager to make football decisions. They've got it right in the past and hopefully it's right again this time.

Hindsight is wonderful thing , but experience is earned and when a club looses good mangers but each time leaving the club in a good place. So the next experienced manager need only keep the wheels on the bus  to get the plaudits and maintain any progress and keep our league status. But what did GB and Co do , give it too 3 novices in a row and then reap the reward of poor decisions and gambles.

Stop with this narrative that Wellens was an amateur, he'd been managing for 4 years before joining us and had won a League title and the Football League Trophy. On paper he was a reasonably solid candidate without the ex-player factor. Yes, it went to shit, but that was for other reasons.

The only thing Wellens achieved was being sacked ever where he went !!

He wasn’t sacked by Swindon, wrong again

[Campsall rover]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn’t it 1969

I thought the appointment of Wellens was an inspired choice. As did the majority of Rovers fans it would have seemed at the time.

Ex Rovers player, one of the best midfielders this club has ever had.
Achieved a promotion with Swindon Town and was thought of by G Neville, Giggs, & Scholes good enough to be the manager of their football club.
Those guys know a good manager as they played under the best, possibly the best ever in the English premier League.

But we had an injury disaster before the season even got under way, the recruitment was very poor and in the end became farcical on the last day of the window.
We went into the season without a striker of any substance, the fitness of the squad was appalling. Wellens couldn’t arrest a poor start to the season, his man management was awful. The players had no self belief and at the end of his tenure were not playing for the manager.
 
The board took the correct decision to sack RW. They had no choice as the manger had lost the dressing room. That was obvious at Crewe and Burton.

Yes shit happens 1969 it didn’t work out as it should have done.

Wellens was an appointment that probably 80% of us were delighted with.
So because it went wrong it is Gavin Baldwin’s fault.
Don’t talk utter garbage, we know you have your own agenda on GB.
I suggest you keep it to yourself because it is embarrassing.
Well you are embarrassing yourself. Shall I put it that way.

[Sammy Chung was King]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn’t it 1969

I thought the appointment of Wellens was an inspired choice. As did the majority of Rovers fans it would have seemed at the time.

Ex Rovers player, one of the best midfielders this club has ever had.
Achieved a promotion with Swindon Town and was thought of by G Neville, Giggs, & Scholes good enough to be the manager of their football club.
Those guys know a good manager as they played under the best, possibly the best ever in the English premier League.

But we had an injury disaster before the season even got under way, the recruitment was very poor and in the end became farcical on the last day of the window.
We went into the season without a striker of any substance, the fitness of the squad was appalling. Wellens couldn’t arrest a poor start to the season, his man management was awful. The players had no self belief and at the end of his tenure were not playing for the manager.
 
The board took the correct decision to sack RW. They had no choice as the manger had lost the dressing room. That was obvious at Crewe and Burton.

Yes shit happens 1969 it didn’t work out as it should have done.

Wellens was an appointment that probably 80% of us were delighted with.
So because it went wrong it is Gavin Baldwin’s fault.
Don’t talk utter garbage, we know you have your own agenda on GB.
I suggest you keep it to yourself because it is embarrassing.
Well you are embarrassing yourself. Shall I put it that way.

The board took the decision after a lot of pondering. What he did as a player bought him more time.
He wasn’t given a great deal of funding. What he did get he wasted. Some of the players he brought looked decent signings until they got on the pitch.

I don’t agree on Neville etc knowing a good manager, they’ve been through a fair few.
With as much money Ashley have they can’t keep throwing money at Salford, destined to fail in the long term there.

We had an injury list like we did because in my opinion the conditioning work done wasn’t enough. Some of those players were not injury prone before that pre season. Some were but the amount of time to get them back playing was unbelievable.

McSheffrey came into a situation where players were dropping like flies with injuries. Those he had to rely on were not capable of playing a full game. Loan players coming in who hadn’t played.

In the end we really should have stayed up but there was a deep set losing mentality, papered over at the end ,with a decent run of results, when the pressure was off.
Some of those players who couldn’t handle the pressure of needing to win, resume in our colours. Will they be better this season?, I hope so.

[Campsall rover]

SCK what I meant was Neville should know what a good manager is.
Emphasis on the word should.
They played under the best one probably since the 2nd world war.

The way they handled their managers at Salford is entirely a different thing.
They were far too hands on it would seem and interfered too much on team affairs and tactics.

[Sammy Chung was King]

SCK what I meant was Neville should know what a good manager is.
Emphasis on the word should.
They played under the best one probably since the 2nd world war.

The way they handled their managers at Salford is entirely a different thing.
They were far too hands on it would seem and interfered too muck on team affairs and tactics.

Ah right sorry mate. Yes if they are doing that one of them should, put their name on the managers door.

[ForsolongaRover]

When I suggested that Baldwin sat at the top of the “management” pyramid as the CEO, it was pointed out that in practice he had no involvement in the football side of the business. It was the Chairman who was the top decision-maker on football matters.

Attributing blame at this stage is largely academic, but it was Baldwin who, at the beginning of last season set out and appeared to to have authored the club’s footballing objectives. It seemed odd that he effectively handed over responsibility for their execution to his line manager, the Chairman. Whether Mr Blunt is suitably qualified I do not know, but unlike the CEO, his professional background is in civil engineering I believe.

Baldwin has remained CEO (of the whole business) whilst Wellens, the manager he highly endorsed, failed and seemingly did nothing. It is difficult to believe that as CEO he did not see it as his responsibility to take a view on what was happening on the managerial front and seek to influence policy. Indeed some might argue that an effective CEO would not have just stood by, but would have a duty to intervene positively.

Not to do so, does prompt criticism.

[silent majority]

When I suggested that Baldwin sat at the top of the “management” pyramid as the CEO, it was pointed out that in practice he had no involvement in the football side of the business. It was the Chairman who was the top decision-maker on football matters.

Attributing blame at this stage is largely academic, but it was Baldwin who, at the beginning of last season set out and appeared to to have authored the club’s footballing objectives. It seemed odd that he effectively handed over responsibility for their execution to his line manager, the Chairman. Whether Mr Blunt is suitably qualified I do not know, but unlike the CEO, his professional background is in civil engineering I believe.

Baldwin has remained CEO (of the whole business) whilst Wellens, the manager he highly endorsed, failed and seemingly did nothing. It is difficult to believe that as CEO he did not see it as his responsibility to take a view on what was happening on the managerial front and seek to influence policy. Indeed some might argue that an effective CEO would not have just stood by, but would have a duty to intervene positively.

Not to do so, does prompt criticism.

I'm not sure where to start with such a blinkered, misinformed, and controversial post as this one obviously is.

It might be better if I said nothing apart from its tosh.

[turnbull for england]

I'll try again, half the post wasn't there. Another shining example of quality ownership

West Bromwich Albion owner Guochuan Lai took £4.95m company loan from club - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61992838

Not bad terms either, 50k interest on 5m

[One_Matty_Lucas]

I'll try again, half the post wasn't there. Another shining example of quality ownership

West Bromwich Albion owner Guochuan Lai took £4.95m company loan from club - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61992838

Not bad terms either, 50k interest on 5m

1% was about the going rate in June 2021 for intercompany loans, doesn't shock me that much.

[scawsby steve]

When I suggested that Baldwin sat at the top of the “management” pyramid as the CEO, it was pointed out that in practice he had no involvement in the football side of the business. It was the Chairman who was the top decision-maker on football matters.

Attributing blame at this stage is largely academic, but it was Baldwin who, at the beginning of last season set out and appeared to to have authored the club’s footballing objectives. It seemed odd that he effectively handed over responsibility for their execution to his line manager, the Chairman. Whether Mr Blunt is suitably qualified I do not know, but unlike the CEO, his professional background is in civil engineering I believe.

Baldwin has remained CEO (of the whole business) whilst Wellens, the manager he highly endorsed, failed and seemingly did nothing. It is difficult to believe that as CEO he did not see it as his responsibility to take a view on what was happening on the managerial front and seek to influence policy. Indeed some might argue that an effective CEO would not have just stood by, but would have a duty to intervene positively.

Not to do so, does prompt criticism.

Apparently, David Blunt played for Bradford Park Avenue, so he'd probably be expected to know a bit more about professional football than Gavin.

[roversdude]

Can you imagine the headlines if the board insisted on Bogle playing ???

[since-1969]

When I suggested that Baldwin sat at the top of the “management” pyramid as the CEO, it was pointed out that in practice he had no involvement in the football side of the business. It was the Chairman who was the top decision-maker on football matters.

Attributing blame at this stage is largely academic, but it was Baldwin who, at the beginning of last season set out and appeared to to have authored the club’s footballing objectives. It seemed odd that he effectively handed over responsibility for their execution to his line manager, the Chairman. Whether Mr Blunt is suitably qualified I do not know, but unlike the CEO, his professional background is in civil engineering I believe.

Baldwin has remained CEO (of the whole business) whilst Wellens, the manager he highly endorsed, failed and seemingly did nothing. It is difficult to believe that as CEO he did not see it as his responsibility to take a view on what was happening on the managerial front and seek to influence policy. Indeed some might argue that an effective CEO would not have just stood by, but would have a duty to intervene positively.

Not to do so, does prompt criticism.

Apparently, David Blunt played for Bradford Park Avenue, so he'd probably be expected to know a bit more about professional football than Gavin.

What position did he play.. I could use the answer in a pub quiz . Or not

[Chris Black come back]

Football finances are fairly unique. Nobody wants a club to be run irresponsibly and get into difficulties, but the metric of success is entirely different to just about every other private sector business.

Delivering success on the field is far more important to the club than turning a profit. Doing both is great, but a football club exists to succeed on pitch and add social value locally, not to turn the biggest profit.

Given the gearing of a club is so heavily weighted towards the playing budget, every single club can be financially sustainable, it just means the playing budget has to be at or very close to income. On that basis no club would ever be in financial difficulties.

So is the fact we are largely self-sustaining good? Absolutely it is important. But we need to know what this means for the playing budget given this is the key financial metric that matters, and since 2016 we have stopped publishing this metric, which is at odds with what the vast majority of clubs do in terms of transparency. 

[DonnyBazR0ver]

"But we need to know what this means for the playing budget given this is the key financial metric that matters"

What do you need to know and why?

[Chris Black come back]

In the abstract, if you want to know the full picture about football finances, you don’t just see the profit / loss figure. The playing budget is as important a metric, given clubs are in business to win games and not see who turns the biggest profit.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

In the abstract, if you want to know the full picture about football finances, you don’t just see the profit / loss figure. The playing budget is as important a metric, given clubs are in business to win games and not see who turns the biggest profit.

You've lost me but are you suggesting there should be a separate league table for points gained v pounds spent? In other words something that shows the level of risk each club is taking? Or % of income spent?

We're football supporters not accountants at the end of the day.

[Chris Black come back]

It’s pretty straightforward really. Whether a club makes a profit or not is simply not how any supporter judges the success of a club.

Most supporters judge a club succeeding by how it performs on the pitch and in the local community.

The major determinant of success on the pitch is the budget. We don’t know the budget figure so it is hard to reach a judgement on whether we are doing well, average or poorly, against that budget.

Nobody for example particularly cares if we turn a profit but get relegated. It is how we have done on the pitch that matters and a material point of context for performance is how much we have spent. We haven’t known this since 2016.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

It’s pretty straightforward really. Whether a club makes a profit or not is simply not how any supporter judges the success of a club.

Most supporters judge a club succeeding by how it performs on the pitch and in the local community.

The major determinant of success on the pitch is the budget. We don’t know the budget figure so it is hard to reach a judgement on whether we are doing well, average or poorly, against that budget.

Nobody for example particularly cares if we turn a profit but get relegated. It is how we have done on the pitch that matters and a material point of context for performance is how much we have spent. We haven’t known this since 2016.

If it's that straightforward, tell us what you want to know?

[silent majority]

It’s pretty straightforward really. Whether a club makes a profit or not is simply not how any supporter judges the success of a club.

Most supporters judge a club succeeding by how it performs on the pitch and in the local community.

The major determinant of success on the pitch is the budget. We don’t know the budget figure so it is hard to reach a judgement on whether we are doing well, average or poorly, against that budget.

Nobody for example particularly cares if we turn a profit but get relegated. It is how we have done on the pitch that matters and a material point of context for performance is how much we have spent. We haven’t known this since 2016.

What you mean is you haven't seen the exact figure.

We've been releasing information about how competitive our budget is for some considerable time now, and as I've noted on numerous occasions we do get to see the full set of accounts and can therefore verify whether our budget is competitive.

The fact that people don't accept what I post or choose to ignore that is an issue for them.

[Chris Black come back]

It’s pretty straightforward really. Whether a club makes a profit or not is simply not how any supporter judges the success of a club.

Most supporters judge a club succeeding by how it performs on the pitch and in the local community.

The major determinant of success on the pitch is the budget. We don’t know the budget figure so it is hard to reach a judgement on whether we are doing well, average or poorly, against that budget.

Nobody for example particularly cares if we turn a profit but get relegated. It is how we have done on the pitch that matters and a material point of context for performance is how much we have spent. We haven’t known this since 2016.

If it's that straightforward, tell us what you want to know?

I don’t want to know anything.

What is true though is that since 2015 (corrected) we have - at odds with the majority of other clubs - not published our staff cost figure. Given this is the primary expenditure of a professional football club it is not unreasonable for this to be published, in the interests of transparency.

I don’t particularly care how much we spend, as it is how we spend that is arguably more important. It is regrettable that we don’t demonstrate full transparency in the way that most other clubs do though.

[Chris Black come back]

It’s pretty straightforward really. Whether a club makes a profit or not is simply not how any supporter judges the success of a club.

Most supporters judge a club succeeding by how it performs on the pitch and in the local community.

The major determinant of success on the pitch is the budget. We don’t know the budget figure so it is hard to reach a judgement on whether we are doing well, average or poorly, against that budget.

Nobody for example particularly cares if we turn a profit but get relegated. It is how we have done on the pitch that matters and a material point of context for performance is how much we have spent. We haven’t known this since 2016.

What you mean is you haven't seen the exact figure.

We've been releasing information about how competitive our budget is for some considerable time now, and as I've noted on numerous occasions we do get to see the full set of accounts and can therefore verify whether our budget is competitive.

The fact that people don't accept what I post or choose to ignore that is an issue for them.

To some extent, that’s right. I don’t especially care what the figure is, but it is something of an anomaly that we don’t publish this, when many other clubs do this. Our failure in recent years has been how this money is spent, not the figure itself.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

So why didn't you ask if the detailed accounts for previous seasons could be published so we could see what money we wasted on whom and those we got good value from?

What's gone is gone. Previous managers have gone. I've no doubt in the past, we'll have spent less and got promoted and spent more and got relegated.

Or, we could just judge things on whether we think we're getting value for the ticket money we pay?

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Just noticed this article published in the DFP.

https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/football-finance-expert-provides-clarity-on-doncaster-rovers-latest-accounts-3754047

[albie]

You can see the accounts for yourself on Companies House;
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03739676/filing-history

[Glyn_Wigley]

Just noticed this article published in the DFP.

https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/football-finance-expert-provides-clarity-on-doncaster-rovers-latest-accounts-3754047

He didn't clarify anything that I could see, it was all 'I get the feeling' and 'you'd expect that' and talking about other clubs finances. Nothing specific about Rovers actual situation at all. Did the DFP even bother talking to DRFC about it at all? Because there's no indication in that article that they did at all.

[since-1969]

It’s pretty straightforward really. Whether a club makes a profit or not is simply not how any supporter judges the success of a club.

Most supporters judge a club succeeding by how it performs on the pitch and in the local community.

The major determinant of success on the pitch is the budget. We don’t know the budget figure so it is hard to reach a judgement on whether we are doing well, average or poorly, against that budget.

Nobody for example particularly cares if we turn a profit but get relegated. It is how we have done on the pitch that matters and a material point of context for performance is how much we have spent. We haven’t known this since 2016.

What you mean is you haven't seen the exact figure.

We've been releasing information about how competitive our budget is for some considerable time now, and as I've noted on numerous occasions we do get to see the full set of accounts and can therefore verify whether our budget is competitive.

The fact that people don't accept what I post or choose to ignore that is an issue for them.

If after spending £30m plus spent over the years has only lead us back to L2 where even less of a turnover achievable, do they still think their continual involvement has run it course !!