Don't Pay UK

[tyke1962]

Seems to be gathering some pace does this movement .

If anyone's not heard of them I've provided a link .

https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/03/dont-pay-uk-the-movement-asking-you-to-stop-paying-energy-bills-16899197/?ito=article.tablet.share.top.link

[albie]

A lot of folk won't be able to pay, so arrears are going to go through the roof.

Shaping up like a modern poll tax disaster in the making, but no sign any of the politicians have any gumption to stop it dead by refusing to allow Ofgem to increase prices.

In the background, the government are preparing a new procurement initiative for net zero, having been ruled inadequate in court;
https://twitter.com/adamvaughan_uk/status/1554474514020450309?cxt=HHwWioCyybSVzZIrAAAA

Remember the PPE scandal....here we go again!

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Suppose it helps the rest of us out with lower prices when the rest get cut off.....

I'm not sure of the merits of don't like the price then take it and don't pay.

[scawsby steve]

I'd love to be part of this, but would the energy companies be ruthless enough to cut us all off?

Any suggestions from Truss or Keith about what can be done about it all?

No, I thought not.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS
Labour proposed a windfall tax on the energy companies months ago.

[scawsby steve]

SS
Labour proposed a windfall tax on the energy companies months ago.

Surely that's just a blight on their obscene profits. Would it make them reduce all our bills?

No, it'd probably induce them to put them up even more.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS
Labour proposed a windfall tax on the energy companies months ago.

Surely that's just a blight on their obscene profits. Would it make them reduce all our bills?

No, it'd probably induce them to put them up even more.

Tax is the process of the Govt taking money from certain private individuals or organisations.

The Govt then has money to give to other individuals.

BP has just "made a profit" (read: "to a great extent, benefited from a massive increase in oil and gas prices that are nothing to do with BP's own efforts." The profit is about £8bn over three months. If the Govt took 3/4 of that as a windfall tax, that would be enough to cover the increase in energy bills of the poorest 1/4 of the population.

It's entirely doable. It just requires political will. You're not going to get the Tories doing that. Labour said months ago it would do something of that sort.

But yeah, they're all the same...

[rich1471]

There is a movement were people are not paying their water bills already and queuing at public taps to fill up with water ,search online

[drfchound]

SS
Labour proposed a windfall tax on the energy companies months ago.

Surely that's just a blight on their obscene profits. Would it make them reduce all our bills?

No, it'd probably induce them to put them up even more.

Tax is the process of the Govt taking money from certain private individuals or organisations.

The Govt then has money to give to other individuals.

BP has just "made a profit" (read: "to a great extent, benefited from a massive increase in oil and gas prices that are nothing to do with BP's own efforts." The profit is about £8bn over three months. If the Govt took 3/4 of that as a windfall tax, that would be enough to cover the increase in energy bills of the poorest 1/4 of the population.

It's entirely doable. It just requires political will. You're not going to get the Tories doing that. Labour said months ago it would do something of that sort.

But yeah, they're all the same...

I thought you said that an opposition party wouldn’t set out what they would do two years in advance of a GE.

[tyke1962]

Martin Lewis is on it .

https://youtu.be/TduXDfBzfgw

[albie]

BST,

A windfall tax misses the point by a country mile.
It is a very unintelligent way to address fuel poverty issues.

Allowing prices to increase way above inflation sets a new level for energy costs across the whole economy.
This replicates in higher costs for all products depending upon high energy inputs.

Paying a compensation for higher energy bills to consumers does not capture the wider inflationary impact.
Food costs will see large increases on the back of high energy costs, so those with low levels of disposable income suffer through all transactions.

We covered this in an earlier thread, but the ability to defer any windfall liability via investment in fossil fuel extraction at 91p in the £ means that it is essentially avoidable, and will raise a much lower sum than any profit boost from increasing consumer prices. These excess profits will find a way into shareholder dividends and share buybacks.

Do you imagine that prices will reduce for consumers in the future from the higher level?
Just prevent the price increase in the first place.

[scawsby steve]

SS
Labour proposed a windfall tax on the energy companies months ago.

Surely that's just a blight on their obscene profits. Would it make them reduce all our bills?

No, it'd probably induce them to put them up even more.

Tax is the process of the Govt taking money from certain private individuals or organisations.

The Govt then has money to give to other individuals.

BP has just "made a profit" (read: "to a great extent, benefited from a massive increase in oil and gas prices that are nothing to do with BP's own efforts." The profit is about £8bn over three months. If the Govt took 3/4 of that as a windfall tax, that would be enough to cover the increase in energy bills of the poorest 1/4 of the population.

It's entirely doable. It just requires political will. You're not going to get the Tories doing that. Labour said months ago it would do something of that sort.

But yeah, they're all the same...

And what about the other 3/4 of the population?

Come on, you know it's just lip service. We all know, you included, that the whole of this horror show needs to be taken into public ownership. Keith knows it as well, and endorsed it, but then, spineless as he is, reneged on it.

Yes, this current crop are all the same. There'll be little choice for anyone in 2 years time.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie.

Run it by me how you stop the increase in the price of gas on the global markets by nationalisation.

[BigH]

The Don't Pay action doesn't surprise me. As Albie mentions, the Poll Tax offers a precedent and mass non-payment would leave the energy companies with a huge headache. Cutting off thousands of pensioners in mid-winter? Not a good look.

The Government can't say they haven't been warned. Think about the political capital that Starmer and others could reap in a year's time by proposing to put the CMA on the energy companies with a view to breaking up the wholesale oligopoly and also by reinvigorating the regulatory body. Who among the electorate would object?

Big energy should be very concerned about the bad rep that it's going to get for this. The energy sector should be demanding government action as a way of protecting itself from public opprobrium and the risk of being the butt of endless jokes about corporate greed. Just look at what that did for the banking sector...

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Big h as bst says you can't change the world markets.  If you want to hit these guys it is through taxing them.

What we do by not paying our providers is hit them, not the people making the big money (which isn't our providers).

[Bristol Red Rover]

Albie.

Run it by me how you stop the increase in the price of gas on the global markets by nationalisation.

Isn't it the case that a nationalised energy industry could simply stop increases. So they would still be buying the fuel at high cost, but that can be covered partially by taxing certain companies as well as government borrowing.

The cost of the borrowing would partly be covered by the economy being in a better state with the inflationary effect of high cost fuel neutralised. They could also sort out the Ukraine crisis rather than "fueling" it as is current.

Then bring in Universal Basic Income and the economy would flourish.

[Bristol Red Rover]

.... and the risk of being the butt of endless jokes about corporate greed. Just look at what that did for the banking sector...

I'm not sure that the energy industry moghuls are any more bothered about being the butt of jokes any more than bankers are. I'm sure they're more focused on buying their next car, installing a bigger swimming pool, buying property in Los Angeles, and ensuring their bit on the side is kept happy and won't rock the family boat.

[albie]

This is correct, BRR (post16)

Albie.

Run it by me how you stop the increase in the price of gas on the global markets by nationalisation.

Isn't it the case that a nationalised energy industry could simply stop increases. So they would still be buying the fuel at high cost, but that can be covered partially by taxing certain companies as well as government borrowing.

The cost of the borrowing would partly be covered by the economy being in a better state with the inflationary effect of high cost fuel neutralised. They could also sort out the Ukraine crisis rather than "fueling" it as is current.

Then bring in Universal Basic Income and the economy would flourish.

.

The French have limited price rises in energy to 4% with the sector largely in public ownership.

The point BST raises about gas prices is addressed by reducing dependence on imported gas bought on spot markets. Recommissioning Rough as a storage facility (owned by Centrica) would help short term, but electrifying some current gas uses would be comparatively easy for the UK to do.

The wider energy problem is electricity prices being tied to the cost of gas in the UK.
Break that chain, and then with the Dogger Bank windfarm on stream, the UK is set to be a net exporter of electricity via the interconnectors to Europe.

Blaming the whole crisis solely on the wholesale price of gas is just a distraction ploy.
Yes, it has happened, but we have the tools in the box to prevent serious harm....that harm is not being prevented by simply cranking up the bills for working people.

[BigH]

Big h as bst says you can't change the world markets.  If you want to hit these guys it is through taxing them.

What we do by not paying our providers is hit them, not the people making the big money (which isn't our providers).

BFYP, your comment misses the point. The point is about protecting the consumer. Taxing surplus/excess profits is shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. And in the meantime the fact we have a p*ss-weak regulator means that we all have to dance to the energy companies' tune.

But there are ways of dealing with this; think about how the UK Govt supported the banking sector in 2008 when global liquidity dried up. If UK consumers had been forced to shoulder the burden then, mortgage holders would have been paying annual interest rates of 30%+.

This crisis does not have to be entirely shouldered by the consumer. There are other options but we have a government that is steadfastly ignoring them.

That's my point.

[wilts rover]

There is a movement were people are not paying their water bills already and queuing at public taps to fill up with water ,search online

Good for them. A water company can't cut you off. Gas and Electric can - after a court order - but Water can't.

[BigH]

.... and the risk of being the butt of endless jokes about corporate greed. Just look at what that did for the banking sector...

I'm not sure that the energy industry moghuls are any more bothered about being the butt of jokes any more than bankers are. I'm sure they're more focused on buying their next car, installing a bigger swimming pool, buying property in Los Angeles, and ensuring their bit on the side is kept happy and won't rock the family boat.

I'm not sure they are too. But when their shareholders see the stock price fall by 50% and the gravy train come to a juddering halt then they'll be off like a bride's nightie.

[wilts rover]

Martin Lewis is on it .

https://youtu.be/TduXDfBzfgw

Yes he was talking about it on tv and the radio the other week. He said he is expecting big protests this autumn with people not paying their bills.

[albie]

Tweet from Emily Gosden of the Times, on the BP profits windfall;

"Some BP numbers:

$3.5 billion = how much it's spending buying back its own shares this quarter

$2.5 billion = how much it plans to spend on low carbon energy globally over the entire year

$361 million = how much it actually spent on low carbon energy in the first half of 2022"

Priorities, eh!

[Glyn_Wigley]

Seems to be gathering some pace does this movement .

If anyone's not heard of them I've provided a link .

https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/03/dont-pay-uk-the-movement-asking-you-to-stop-paying-energy-bills-16899197/?ito=article.tablet.share.top.link

I take it none of them know that the power companies are able to get warrants to be able to force entry to premises with unpaid debts and install pay meters.

[drfchound]

There is a movement were people are not paying their water bills already and queuing at public taps to fill up with water ,search online

Good for them. A water company can't cut you off. Gas and Electric can - after a court order - but Water can't.

I would think that there wil be plenty of people who would be worried that if they don’t pay their energy bills that it could affect their credit rating which might hinder them in future years.

[Glyn_Wigley]

There is a movement were people are not paying their water bills already and queuing at public taps to fill up with water ,search online

Why are they doing that when water companies don't have the authority to turn off a domestic water supply, even when there is an outstanding debt at the property?

[SydneyRover]

Energy retailers have been going bust for some time and the government have acted in slow motion in that time. Windfall tax has been slagged off by the government as it would affect investment (or more likely because it was a labour proposal) since then they have:

''July 11 (Reuters) - British lawmakers approved a 25% windfall tax on oil and gas producers in the British North Sea on Monday, which the government says will raise 5 billion pounds ($5.95 billion) in one year to help people struggling with soaring energy bills.''

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-lawmakers-approve-windfall-tax-oil-gas-producers-2022-07-11/#:~:text=July%2011%20(Reuters)%20%2D%20British,struggling%20with%20soaring%20energy%20bills.

But they refuse to call it a windfall tax ................ and since of course understanding the huge gains they were to about to announce BP said this windfall tax would not affect investment.

[SydneyRover]

show of hands, who is not going to pay their bills?

Is there an anarchist in the house?

[wilts rover]

This is the organisation

https://dontpay.uk/

[wilts rover]

The UK has significant supplies of both oil and gas (we were a next exporter of oil in 2020). Thus if the government wished it coud reduce the cost of UK produced oil and gas to UK suppliers and thus UK consumers.

It wont because:
a) it benefits from higher prices in tax and VAT
b) a significan number of individuals connected with government have links with the oil/gas industry (LIz Truss for instance worked for Shell for 4 years)