World Cup in Qatar - is anyone interested in it?

[SydneyRover]

''When the issue is forced on stuff like this it brings out the discussion of race and the thought of division again, when we should be moving past that. Like I said, there are only a very small minority of actual racists in this country''

Do you have any supporting evidence for this or the rest of your comment nc?

[VivaRovers]

I was just talking generally. The mens game has a lot more opportunities for people of colour because it is far bigger.

As the womens game gets bigger, more opportunities will naturally arise. It’s not necessarily because the system is designed to work against certain people as was insinuated by the original pundit’s comment. It doesn’t need to be made about race.

if you read that article by Anita Asante she goes on to highlight why that isn't necessarily the case for the women's game at the top level.

No-one is suggesting the system is designed to work against certain groups, but that this may have happened indirectly by the way in which it's grown. So the rise of the women's game has seen the top level clubs move out of the towns and cities to bases in the suburbs. This then impacts young women and girls in the inner-cities who are less likely to be able to afford to get to these new bases; a high percentage of these kids are likely to be non-White.

So by asking that question about why aren't there that many non White players in the England squad, and the WSL as a whole, you identify a barrier that's there for a big swathe of working class kids of all races that can be addressed to make the England squad more diverse. Diversity being about more than just race.

As I said further up this thread; the reason for asking these questions is not to divide, but to ensure that sports are as inclusive as possible.

[ncRover]

I was just talking generally. The mens game has a lot more opportunities for people of colour because it is far bigger.

As the womens game gets bigger, more opportunities will naturally arise. It’s not necessarily because the system is designed to work against certain people as was insinuated by the original pundit’s comment. It doesn’t need to be made about race.

if you read that article by Anita Asante she goes on to highlight why that isn't necessarily the case for the women's game at the top level.

No-one is suggesting the system is designed to work against certain groups, but that this may have happened indirectly by the way in which it's grown. So the rise of the women's game has seen the top level clubs move out of the towns and cities to bases in the suburbs. This then impacts young women and girls in the inner-cities who are less likely to be able to afford to get to these new bases; a high percentage of these kids are likely to be non-White.

So by asking that question about why aren't there that many non White players in the England squad, and the WSL as a whole, you identify a barrier that's there for a big swathe of working class kids of all races that can be addressed to make the England squad more diverse. Diversity being about more than just race.

As I said further up this thread; the reason for asking these questions is not to divide, but to ensure that sports are as inclusive as possible.

Spot on, I agree with all of that.

I think was it Elidh Barbour who made the original comment on tv? None of the above was referenced and it was taken by some in the wrong way.

[ncRover]

Harry Kane potentially injured having a scan on the ankle. Didn’t look good in that bad challenge on him.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Not looking good for Kane but we should be able to cope without him for the rest of the group stage as long as we play with the same intensity .

Wilson and even Rashford can do a job in place of Kane.

[DRFC_AjA]

I stand by what I said that it's divisive. You cannot simply connect the dots so easily without any valid reason....many white footballers in this current "intake" does not equal racism. And it's so sad that this is always the default reaction and the divisive lefties will say "well it's worth the discussion". No it isn't

Hardly any white people represent UK at track and field....equals racism against whites and they're being held back

[DRFC_AjA]

Souness said on tv as a pundit, the World Cup should not be here. Well Mr souness why are you there being paid as a pundit and getting free accommodation? If you don’t agree, don’t be there

Aside from the two very obvious reasons (worker conditions and gay rights) there's no reason why this shouldn't be held in Qatar. All the other criticisms such as lack of beer, kick off times, them not being a footballing region are invalid and bordering on islamaphobia for me.

Why on earth should the people of middle east not have the world's best tournament...have you seen the colour and chanting those supporters have bought to the stadiums now it's on their doorstep, how many youngsters in those regions are going to be inspired to play

To argue it shouldn't be there because they aren't a football region you're basically saying "we invented the game so it should suit us" which is pretty archaic viewpoint

[BillyStubbsTears]

I stand by what I said that it's divisive. You cannot simply connect the dots so easily without any valid reason....many white footballers in this current "intake" does not equal racism. And it's so sad that this is always the default reaction and the divisive lefties will say "well it's worth the discussion". No it isn't

Hardly any white people represent UK at track and field....equals racism against whites and they're being held back

Ever read Don Quixote?

Tilting at windmills.

Literally no-one of any importance is saying that the preponderance of white players in the team is some racist plot. Why do you frame it like that?

[Spud]

Not looking good for Kane but we should be able to cope without him for the rest of the group stage as long as we play with the same intensity .

Wilson and even Rashford can do a job in place of Kane.

We'd have to be set up differently with either of those replacing Kane though. For years, we've all been tearing our hair out at how deep Harry has dropped for England, finally we have others going beyond him & getting on the end of his play. I don't think it's any coincidence we got 6 without him being on the scoresheet the other day, he's a great false nine, or whatever you want to call it.
Like you say, I'm sure our progression through the group doesn't hinge on him now.

[BahrainRover]

Souness said on tv as a pundit, the World Cup should not be here. Well Mr souness why are you there being paid as a pundit and getting free accommodation? If you don’t agree, don’t be there

Aside from the two very obvious reasons (worker conditions and gay rights) there's no reason why this shouldn't be held in Qatar. All the other criticisms such as lack of beer, kick off times, them not being a footballing region are invalid and bordering on islamaphobia for me.

Why on earth should the people of middle east not have the world's best tournament...have you seen the colour and chanting those supporters have bought to the stadiums now it's on their doorstep, how many youngsters in those regions are going to be inspired to play

To argue it shouldn't be there because they aren't a football region you're basically saying "we invented the game so it should suit us" which is pretty archaic viewpoint

As I live in the region I can say the MENA area is very much a football region. Not just the premiership but all European leagues are followed. The sports channels are dominated by football here. Ok the local standards are not as high as Europe, but they still get strong support. It’s definitely the dominant sport that’s followed.

[wilts rover]

is anyone really suggesting that any top sports team manager like the woman’s football team manager purposely goes out to select white players over others. It’s a nonsense
Sport is all about success and that means that the best people are selected.  Look at the GB athletics squad. The best people are selected because they are faster stronger better at their sport.  No one cares about what colour they are or their background. Most people are happy that the relay teams and others are highly successful and win medals. Most football supporters don’t care who their players are as long as they play for their clubs and good enough 
If the very successful woman’s England football team squad was 50/50% would anyone have cared NO
most sensible thinking people were just happy to see an England or British team being successful
British sport would be knackered without non white sportsman and woman.  Look at the England football team.  Take away the non white players and the squad is at best average
Some people create issues when there really aren’t any and fuel problems

I agree Phil, no-one has suggested the England womens' football team manager (or any other top level manager in this country) picks white players over others.

I also agree that some people are creating issues where there aren't any and fueling problems.

[Pliskin]

The Bristol City coach Anita Asante puts this across much better and most certainly with greater insight than me, here in this article.

A key quote within this piece being...
'There is clearly a problem – but it has nothing to do with Wiegman’s Euro 2022 team sheets and everything to do with the pathways leading players to the England squad.'

The author says that there were only 3 non-white players in the squad of 23 and uses this as proof of a 'diversity problem'. As readers, it seems like we're supposed to just accept this without explanation.

But how many non-white players would one reasonably expect to see in an England squad? Based on demographics, it's probably around 4 or 5.

The author must've had a much larger number in mind to warrant declaring a 'diversity problem' in football on the back of there being only 3 non-white England players at one particular snapshot in time.

I don't doubt that there are problems, but this isn't evidence. It's ridiculous.

Pliskin, in your first sentence you are actually agreeing with the author, that it is not about the current team sheet. She then goes on to talk about the pathways for non-whites to get into the squad, you then hazard a guess about what the author is thinking and further you cast doubt on whether there are problems ............. bingo full house.

What are you getting at?

The author quite rightly doesn't question the manager's squad / team selection. I never suggested otherwise.

However, the article explicitly says 'there is clearly a problem' after observing that of England's 23 best players, only 3 happen to be non-white. There is a clear negative link being made here.

I'm asking why this is being used as evidence of a problem.

[Branton Red]

Let's bring the sanity of statistics into this debate. www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/populationestimatesbyethnicgroupandreligionenglandandwales/2019

In 2019 84.8% of the population of England (and Wales) was White. 3.5% of the population was Black.

Therefore in a wholly White/Black squad you'd expect 1 black player in the 23 (actually 0.9) and 0 black players in the starting 11 (actually 0.4).

Including those whose ethnicity is categorised as Mixed by the ONS the numbers would move to 1 (1.4) black/mixed race player in the squad and 1 (0.6) black/mixed race player in the starting 11.

Anybody claiming that the Black population is underrepresented in the England women's (or men's) football squads are clearly completely wrong.

Far more pertinent is the question as to why there are no British Asian footballers in either the men's or women's England football squads given that they make up 8% of the population.

[Branton Red]

Addendum

Given I can barely think of more than a handful of British Asian professional footballers not just currently but historically may I suggest the obvious that their under-representation in the England women's football squad is due to cultural reasons and not a lack of pathways or relative deprivation.

And therefore that any perceived under-representation of ethnic minorities in total in the squad (given the relatively high % of British Asians vs other ethnic groups in the country) is down to the same reasoning.

[Monkcaster_Rover]

Belgium being outclassed by Canada. Courtois saved a penalty as well.

[Monkcaster_Rover]

Ha. Soon as that posted Belgium go 1 up.

[SydneyRover]

The Bristol City coach Anita Asante puts this across much better and most certainly with greater insight than me, here in this article.

A key quote within this piece being...
'There is clearly a problem – but it has nothing to do with Wiegman’s Euro 2022 team sheets and everything to do with the pathways leading players to the England squad.'

The author says that there were only 3 non-white players in the squad of 23 and uses this as proof of a 'diversity problem'. As readers, it seems like we're supposed to just accept this without explanation.

But how many non-white players would one reasonably expect to see in an England squad? Based on demographics, it's probably around 4 or 5.

The author must've had a much larger number in mind to warrant declaring a 'diversity problem' in football on the back of there being only 3 non-white England players at one particular snapshot in time.

I don't doubt that there are problems, but this isn't evidence. It's ridiculous.

Pliskin, in your first sentence you are actually agreeing with the author, that it is not about the current team sheet. She then goes on to talk about the pathways for non-whites to get into the squad, you then hazard a guess about what the author is thinking and further you cast doubt on whether there are problems ............. bingo full house.

What are you getting at?

The author quite rightly doesn't question the manager's squad / team selection. I never suggested otherwise.

However, the article explicitly says 'there is clearly a problem' after observing that of England's 23 best players, only 3 happen to be non-white. There is a clear negative link being made here.

I'm asking why this is being used as evidence of a problem.

''I don't doubt that there are problems, but this isn't evidence. It's ridiculous''

Why not if the pathways to playing are not there for some?

[Thorney]

What a delight Canada were to watch tonight. Some brilliant football and totally dominated the Belgium team. Shame they couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo.

The one result so far this tournament where I think the winners did not deserve to win

[phil old leake]

Branton you are being far too sensible for some people. Far far too sensible.

[SydneyRover]

Addendum

Given I can barely think of more than a handful of British Asian professional footballers not just currently but historically may I suggest the obvious that their under-representation in the England women's football squad is due to cultural reasons and not a lack of pathways or relative deprivation.

And therefore that any perceived under-representation of ethnic minorities in total in the squad (given the relatively high % of British Asians vs other ethnic groups in the country) is down to the same reasoning.

Please provide some data that supports what you say Branton

[SydneyRover]

This cultural problem could be holding a few women back though.

''Mark Sampson: FA sorry over race remarks to Eniola Aluko & Drew Spence''

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/41617223

[VivaRovers]

Let's bring the sanity of statistics into this debate. www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/populationestimatesbyethnicgroupandreligionenglandandwales/2019

Fair enough, if the question were 'is the racial make up of the England women's team directly comparable with the racial make up of England?' then these statistics would be relevant... but it isn't.

The question of why aren't/weren't there any non-White players in the England team was being asked because football IS popular among non-White women and girls, and there are a great number of non-White women and girls playing the game in England, and indeed have been many in the England team in the past.

So, as touched on in previous posts, what's then being asked is 'is there a reason for this?' 'is there a barrier in place somewhere along the way from participation in football to playing football at the top level?' Turns out there could well be and it's a barrier that could affect a large number of girls and young women from working class towns and inner cities regardless of race.

To come back to other points raised above. If from the start this came from someone saying, 'there are no Black players in the England team, that's racist', then people would be absolutely right to call out this statement as ridiculous and divisive. Because it absolutely would be.

But that's not what's been said, or discussed. It's a conversation of inclusivity in top level women's football that's been brought about through non-White women and girls saying 'there isn't anyone in this team who looks like me, why is that?'. And if that ensuing conversation leads to more women and girls from low income families being able to make it to the top then that can surely only be a good thing.

[SydneyRover]

And the reason I keep asking for data and proof is to stop tropes developing that some are all too ready to believe and repeat.

[Canadian Rover]

What a delight Canada were to watch tonight. Some brilliant football and totally dominated the Belgium team. Shame they couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo.

The one result so far this tournament where I think the winners did not deserve to win

Very proud of the performance of the team yesterday; hopefully similar performances against Morocco and Croatia!

[Dutch Uncle]

To lighten the mood a little did anyone see the name of the German manager - Hansi Flick

Allo Allo anyone 

Also BST's comments on tilting at windmills reminded me of the attached Dutch (once under long term Spanish occupation) traffic sign 

[ForsolongaRover]

How many other sports would hold their World Championships in a country that has no real connection with their sport?

It lays bare the pure commercialism to which the modern game is firmly anchored.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with the first line. You couldn't really say Japan and South Korea, or even South Africa, really have much of a connection with the sport. Sure, they play the game there at a professional level, but none are really footballing powerhouses. Why should a country that isn't traditionally connected with the sport not be allowed to host a tournament, if it wins the right to do so legitimately, of course?

Whilst I cannot say I have ever lived in any of the 3 countries mentioned it is a fact that South Korea have played in 10 World Cup finals, Japan 7 and South Africa where football is played probably more widely than rugby, 3. I have not done exhaustive research, but it is clear from what may be gleaned from reliable sources that all three countries have football leagues and many thousands of regular players - 827k registered in Japan for example. I didn’t mention ”powerhouses”.

Thus I stand by my original statement, but I am sure you could argue about the definition of “real connection”.

Perhaps I should have been even more robust in defence of Japan as a footballing nation!

[phil old leake]

Viva you make some valid arguments in favour of what you think

Do you really think that this would have even raised its head if some reporter had not raised it as an issue. The same reporter that walked out of some presentation evening in Scotland because she didn’t like the jokes. Do you believe the non white girls on the bench felt less worthy winners

We should all be talking about the success of the team not using them to advance agendas

The same goes for our team at the World Cup.  Let’s play football and hopefully do well. 

[VivaRovers]

Viva you make some valid arguments in favour of what you think

Cheers, will answer your questions a bit more succinctly...

Do you really think that this would have even raised its head if some reporter had not raised it as an issue?

Yes, because it was being talked about on Twitter quite prominently a day or two before Elidh Barbour brought it up on air (which is presumably why she did or why the programme's editors suggested she did)

Do you believe the non white girls on the bench felt less worthy winners?

No I don't, they were part of a successful squad.

[wilts rover]

Viva you make some valid arguments in favour of what you think

Do you really think that this would have even raised its head if some reporter had not raised it as an issue. The same reporter that walked out of some presentation evening in Scotland because she didn’t like the jokes. Do you believe the non white girls on the bench felt less worthy winners

We should all be talking about the success of the team not using them to advance agendas

The same goes for our team at the World Cup.  Let’s play football and hopefully do well. 

It is not people asking questions that makes this 'an issue'. It is people being offended by the question being asked.

In my experience they are also the same people who complain; 'that you can't say that anymore', 'it's cancel culture'  and 'everyone should have free speech'.

Funny old world...

[Branton Red]

Viva
Your actual question, in the mouth of a non-white aspiring girl footballer, was "'why do none of these players look like me?"

It seems obtuse of you to summarily dismiss the reviewing of demographic statistics to assess how many of the players should be expected to "look like" your footballer.

The fact is Black women were not statistically underrepresented in the England squad (far from it) but British Asians were.

I think you're being too simplistic and plain wrong to lump all ethnic minorities into a non-white category and incorrect in your view that there is an overall issue applying to them all or to all women from poorer backgrounds.

Unless you any evidence to back up your supposition that it is more difficult for poorer girls to make their way in football?

Sydney - Some data as requested.
- British Asians make up 8% of the population but less than 1% of English professional footballers.
- The majority (over 60%) of British Asians have their roots in India or Pakistan
- India is the worlds 2nd most populous country (17.7% of the world's population) and is 61st in the FIFA women's international teams rankings
- Pakistan is the worlds 5th most populous country and is 160th in the FIFA women's international teams rankings

Hence my assertion that cultural differences are the more likely reason for British Asian under-representation in the England squad. (Not cultural problems as you put it - this is a free country!)

However if you have evidence to contradict this opinion please feel free to share.