The best player in your lifetime.

[southwestexile]

Stats and influence would be Pelé - always the best, great global figure and footballer on the biggest stage. He’s the reason everyone loved Brazil, mercurial, magical and smiling, whilst having the shit kicked out of him. Btw, can’t stand Brazil these days, prima donnas

[ravenrover]

George Best TV and live, not even a contest. Messi wouldn't have lasted five minutes in the 60s and 70s. Bestie was hard as nails as well as a genius with the ball.

The 1960s defenders wouldn't have got within 10 yards of Messi. Seriously.

On modern pitches correct but on the mudheaps of the 60's?
Sorry BST but Messi would be over the barriers with some of those defenders.

[Keenstonian]

Jimmy Greaves

[BillyStubbsTears]

George Best TV and live, not even a contest. Messi wouldn't have lasted five minutes in the 60s and 70s. Bestie was hard as nails as well as a genius with the ball.

The 1960s defenders wouldn't have got within 10 yards of Messi. Seriously.

On modern pitches correct but on the mudheaps of the 60's?
Sorry BST but Messi would be over the barriers with some of those defenders.

Most matches weren't on mudheaps 25 years ago. But the players then were typically running 8km per game. Now pretty much every player on the pitch does 11km+ in 90 minutes.

The physical demands on players today are extraordinary. There's been an absolute revolution on that score in the past couple of decades.

Plus, the players' physical strength is of a different order of magnitude to what it used to be. Kevin Keegan said that the first time Bill Shankley saw him getting stripped for training, hesaid he had a physique like a middleweight boxer. That was unusual 50 years ago and Keegan was a physical phenomenon. Now every player in National League North is ripped like that.

I'd guarantee you, if Norman Hunter went into a full blooded challenge with Mbappe, there'd be only one winner. A d it would t be Bite Yer Legs. The players from the 60s would bounce off today's top players.

[Colin C No.3]

Messi. A man, a moment a ‘mountain climbed’ for him today.

Never was such a more deserving recipient of such a trophy & personal accolade as player of this tournament.

Lionel, thank you for being born in my era.

[ravenrover]

George Best TV and live, not even a contest. Messi wouldn't have lasted five minutes in the 60s and 70s. Bestie was hard as nails as well as a genius with the ball.

The 1960s defenders wouldn't have got within 10 yards of Messi. Seriously.

On modern pitches correct but on the mudheaps of the 60's?
Sorry BST but Messi would be over the barriers with some of those defenders.

Most matches weren't on mudheaps 25 years ago. But the players then were typically running 8km per game. Now pretty much every player on the pitch does 11km+ in 90 minutes.

The physical demands on players today are extraordinary. There's been an absolute revolution on that score in the past couple of decades.

Plus, the players' physical strength is of a different order of magnitude to what it used to be. Kevin Keegan said that the first time Bill Shankley saw him getting stripped for training, hesaid he had a physique like a middleweight boxer. That was unusual 50 years ago and Keegan was a physical phenomenon. Now every player in National League North is ripped like that.

I'd guarantee you, if Norman Hunter went into a full blooded challenge with Mbappe, there'd be only one winner. A d it would t be Bite Yer Legs. The players from the 60s would bounce off today's top players.

Something wrong with your sums there Billy, we were talking about 60's. Being chopped down from behind or off the ball stops anybody and every team had at least one "hard man",  and running through treacle pitches back then would make it impossible for players to run the distances of modern times
Messi may be the best player of his generation but you cannot say GOAT and that applies to all the other greats of their own  be that Puskas Pele Maradonna Cryuff Copps, era

[selby]

No denying Messi is a great player, but I don't think he has ever covered 11 km in a game I have watched him in to prove it.
  He does what every great player does, finds space where others can't, reads the game while it is in progress, even if that means standing still in the right spot in the area, and gets into the area between the sticks.
  The art of winning games of football has not changed at all, you need to get men into the area between the sticks and the ball into that area, and to defend the goal you need defenders in the box between the ball and the goal, everything else complicates it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Raven.

My point was that when the detailed analysis of players came in, about 25 years ago, most pitches were not mudbaths. But players were typically running only 60% as far as they do today.

Realistically, that's your very best case scenario for the fitness of 1960s players. In reality, they weren't even close to that level. Look at the physiques and refuelling habits of players from the 60s.

If you still don't believe me, I've got a slam dunk.

Watch the first couple of minutes of this, then get back to me.
https://youtu.be/dpMvd_z69-4

[ravenrover]

But Billy the statement was of the mudbath pitches of the 60's why do you keep talking about 25 years ago? No mention of players being able to stop the talented ones dead in their tracks. As Charlie Williams said he wasn't a great player but he could stop them that were. My whole point really is that there cannot be a GOAT. Fitness has improved yes, diet has improved yes, the drinking culture has gone (with the odd exception) but you simply cannot compare the greats from the 50s 60s 79s 80s 90s with each other never mind the current crop. I'm guessing you.might be just a few years younger than me and we have witnessed players during those years doing incredible things on a football field but it is impossible to say any are the GOAT. From another angle would Messi due to his size even had a look in back in the day?
My other point is that people always talk about the attacking players as being the GOAT what about  the great keepers, the great defenders the great midfielders, never a mention it's always the attacking/striking players.
I'm afraid no one can convimce me that any one player be it Messi or Pele is the GOAT, the greatest of their era but never of all time

[selby]

RR, spot on.

[BillyStubbsTears]

RR.

Have you had a look at that 1962 WC final video?

Can you begin to imagine what Messi would have done if he'd been dropped into that game?

[MachoMadness]

On TV, Messi, hands down.
Live, probably Modric.

On the mudbath pitch point. There's a famous game where the OG Ronaldo played away at Spartak Moscow. Early spring in Moscow after days of heavy snow. Conditions as bad as any pitch you've ever seen, covered in mud and ice. And he makes it look easy. The only time Spartak players can stop him is to double up and foul him, and even then a lot of the time that doesn't work. By the end of the match he's bullying the defenders, finishing with 2 goals in a 2-1 Inter win. His second goal is class as well, no one gets near him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa1NuAEb848&ab_channel=ronaldogodmagic

And this was 25 years ago - standards have moved on immeasurably even since then. But even then, when they were trying to clog a famously injury-prone player on a frozen mudbath pitch, his quality shone through. Put today's players there who are fitter, faster, stronger, more resilient and technically better and they'd dominate even more imo.

[ravenrover]

Yes I did but wasn't 62 in Chile nice dry hard pitch not quite a mud bath. Reminded me of Spain  playing keep ball. Yes  a modern Messi or  Cryff or  Best or Maradonna would have caused chaos......... if they were allowed to the stoppers were around then.
Different times a different game, todays game is fashioned to allow players like Messi to shine
Have you seen the clip of all the modern players doing the Cryuff turn , the nutmegs the dribble and shot, flicking the ball over a players head etc all the tricks and the comparison with Pele who did the same pieces of skill years ago do it's not just a new skill

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ravenl

My point is that, on a dry, decent pitch in 1962, the play is almost at walking pace. The players had nothing remotely close to the physical attributes that are standard these days.

And if you think it was like Spanish keep ball, I suggest you go back and watch it again.

The ball is given away by misdirected, unpressurised 10 yards passes 4 times in the first 30 seconds. You wouldn't see that happen at National League level these days. Spain wouldn't make that many unforced errors at that place in an entire tournament.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Best player seen live: Davor Suker.
Best on TV: Maradona.

(Both judged by the standards of their day).

[DearneValleyRover]

For me Maradona

[selby]

  Seeing as how most of the Czeck side were in the army and played so called amateur  for Dukla Prague they were not bad.
  The test of the different generations is the inovation they brought to the game, even the England side were dubbed the wingless wonders.
  Most great sides introduced something different into the game, that has been improved on by and adopted by successive generations.
  The Hungarians the withdrawn centre forward, followed by the Brazilian 442, the Dutch Total Football, Beckenbauer  attacking from the central defence, the Italians suffocating defence and then the Spanish ticky tacky all requiring forward thinking and players who could adapt to the system.
   The Argentinians and French are bigger better fed and in some cases faster individually all great players in both sides, but they have hardly been innovative, in fact both sides are hell bent on stopping play in midfield with the tactical foul rather  than being expressive, and cynical in their approach to the game finding a way to win pushing the rules to the extreme, I would have liked to have seen the reaction if the keeper had been sent off for ungentlemanly behaviour and reduced to ten men and no keeper among them, now that would have been fun.
  Did they introduce anything new, no, after the thrills of the actual timing of the goals and the players involved has died in time will it be remembered as a great football game of quality, or for poorish finishing, defending and petulance? probably the latter three things.

[ravenrover]

Billy as I say different times different game and different opinions

[ravenrover]

Just came across this on twitter
James Milner on making a hard tackle on Lionel Messi in the Champions League:

"He's incredible, for me the best ever. If you give players like that their own way and too much respect, they're going to run the game. Sometimes you have to let them know you're there
Milner: "You need to knock them out of their stride but he didn't like it, he was giving me a bit in Spanish, calling me a donkey! He was saying it was 'just because I megged you!'"
Milner: "But to be honest, he can say what he wants can't he! It turned out nicely in the end though with what happened in the second leg!"

[Ldr]

Dennis Bergkamp for both for me

[Stateside Rover]

Best live: Schweinsteiger
Best on TV: Messi

[Thorney]

Personally for me the player I enjoyed watching the most was Thierry Henry. Stylish and elegant player could win a game on his own. A pleasure to watch.

[Branton Rover]

I disagree the only difference between players now & 50 years ago is fitness & if the Dutch squad of ‘74 played now they’d win the World Cup - the reason they didn’t beat West Germany in the final was that winning wasn’t good enough for the Dutch they went out to humiliate the Germans in their own country and it backfired the dominance they had didn’t result in goals whereas the Germans were clinical in finishing especially with Gherd Muller.

[ncRover]

Personally for me the player I enjoyed watching the most was Thierry Henry. Stylish and elegant player could win a game on his own. A pleasure to watch.

This clip is amazing. 93rd minute and not even blowing!

https://twitter.com/afcstuff/status/1603782941825441793?s=46&t=rlR_235njkF6im8e9m-_pQ

[Highland Rover]

 
 I was lucky enough to spend 7 years in Germany ( courtesy of the RAF ) in the 70's and 80's , outstanding players
 like Beckenbauer ,Mueller , Overath , Netzer, Vogts , Rummenigge  but my favourite would be an Hungarian who
 played inside forward  for  Hertha Berlin and that's Zoltan Varga . He defected from the 1968 Mexico Olympics having
 played for Ferencvaros ( ? )  bizarrely ending up at Aberdeen !
 Best ever ...Pele

[selby]

  Branton, plus they liked to party and the Germans fed them women and booze on nights out before the game.
  Probably arrogance because they knew and were the best team ever, at both club and international  to be honest, with the best player in the world at the time, and a number of others like Neeskins the best in their positions close behind him.
  The world will never see a team like that put together again unless billions are spent on players from all over the world.

[ncRover]

Football nowadays is certainly faster and more tactical, but are the world class players nowadays as skilful? Do they have as much flair as they used to?

[ravenrover]

You want skillfull, I give you Ronaldinho

[Campsall rover]

Dennis Bergkamp for both for me

He was some player.

Best player live was Jimmy Johnstone at Elland Rd. Leeds v Celtic  European Cup Semi Final 1st leg. 1970
Eddie Gray close 2nd. When he was on it he was brilliant.

Best on TV probably Maradona. Wait a minute George Best. Oh crikey that’s a tough one.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I disagree the only difference between players now & 50 years ago is fitness & if the Dutch squad of ‘74 played now they’d win the World Cup - the reason they didn’t beat West Germany in the final was that winning wasn’t good enough for the Dutch they went out to humiliate the Germans in their own country and it backfired the dominance they had didn’t result in goals whereas the Germans were clinical in finishing especially with Gherd Muller.

It absolutely NOT only about increased fitness these days.

1) The game is so much faster now. That doesn't only require enhanced physical fitness. It also requires enhance mental speed and brain-body communication speed. In simple terms, Pele and Cruyff (and even Maradona and Zidane) had more time to assess situations, make decisions and enact them than players do today.

We're talking about fractions of a second but it makes an enormous difference.

If Pele played today, he MIGHT have been able to react a fraction quicker than he even had to in 1958. But it's impossible to know that, because he played in an era where he had the luxury of more time to deploy his skills.

2) As time passes, the repertoire of skills that players have developed.

Cruyff's turn was astonishing in 1972. Now schoolkids do it regularly.

Pele's juggle, turn and shot was from another planet in 1958. McIndoe scored a better goal than that in 2003 - quicker and with more pressure from the defenders.

George Beat's diagonal cross field run and shot against Sheff Utd was breathtaking in 1971. A plodder like Carlton Palmer scored an equivalent goal in 1993.

Pele trying (and failing) to score from the halfway line in 1970 was audacity beyond belief. David Beckham did score when he tried it 26 years later.

Players build on the skills that have gone before them. Cruyff's turn wouldn't raise eyebrows today. He MIGHT be able to master the full repertoire that players have today, and he MIGHT be able to display those in the much faster, more compressed game today. But we'll never know.


NB. On the subject of new skills, I saw several strikers do something I've never seen before in this WC. As the keeper came out to close down the angles, the striker deliberately hit a low bouncing ball on the volley, into the turf. The idea was to give it enough elevation as it bounced to clear the diving keeper, but then for the spin to bring it down and save it clearing the bar. I thought it was a mis-hit, first time I saw it happen but after seeing 2-3 similar ones I'm sure it's a new technique being perfected. Quite an astonishing skill at pace.