Emergency Meeting (FAO Silent_majority)

[roversdude]

SCWK the injuries we have had this season are predominantly different to previous years - other than Tommy I cant really think of muscle injuries. We’ve been unlucky that 2 centre halves are out at the same time with head/facial injuries, Younger was a complete fluke others have been impact injuries which can’t be legislated for. The bench would have been stronger if our loan striker and Tomlin were still about (2 places that need replacements ASAP)

[ForsolongaRover]

  Why would supporters want to know that information, and what use would it be anyway, other than brass people off if we still didn't do well after pushing the boat out.
  It's purely about getting value for money, a football brain, and being able to build and sustain a good football team.
Giving the wrong people money to spend does not guarantee success as Chelsea, Tottenham and Liverpool are finding out at the moment, while spending less well such as Brighton brings success, aided by managers who recognise ability.

I get the impression that a lot of people are “brassed off” with quite a few of the recent transfer dealings. Failing to make sensible use of funds seems a legitimate criticism.

As you say, it about getting value for money, but we are in no position to judge if we do not know what money is being made available or spent.

Also Baldwin devoted an interview with the DFP about the Business Plan and later washed his hands of it when it clearly failed with the excuse that the footballing side of the club was not his responsibility. The Plan was never mentioned again, so presumably no one took ownership. No Business Plan has been mentioned since, so perhaps there is no plan anymore.

I have no idea what any of that means.

Really?

[since-1969]

When will we begin here the plans for next season ? After all the plan is to be in another League !

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Thanks SM, good points in there, some I agree with some not so much, which I'll explain.

I don't doubt we have a decent wage bill for this league. I'd question if we had one last year though and we shouldn't lower our expectations to competing in league 2 only. I also feel we fail to invest as much as we should in saleable assets.  Just look at Ben White man as an example of that. We've not gone after someone with real potential over the past few years and some of our rivals have.  Do we need to spend more to compete where we'd like as fans? Yes we absolutely do, we need a bigger wage bill and a bigger transfer budget.  Other clubs have attacked the transfer window already, the messages Drfc send out right now feel negative on that.

Do I want to see further investment/funding? Yes I absolutely do. To agree with your point I don't know where that is or if it's possible, but I'd say other clubs have found it so why can't we?  To get where we as fans want we need that. None of us want to plod in league 2 in front of 4-5000 fans.  So yes, to get there we probably do need alternate owners as I can't see signs that the current owner wants to spend the cash. You make a very valid point that this may be happening and we don't know about it.

That is not a criticism but it's where I feel football is right now.  Why shouldn't we want to be similar to the clubs of our size who've made it to the top?  We shouldn't just settle for what we've had the last few years being unable to retain players/coaches or attract the calibre we'd like.

As for infrastructure, I take your points but I also see negatives.  The stadium feels a little tiring and it's seriously filthy.  We've a scoreboard that hasn't worked for months l, lights that flicker or don't work and some things feel a little tired.  Granted there may have been some improvements but in the things we can see the image portrayed is a little negative.

Yes I'm being a football fan with these points, yes they may well be unrealistic, but as fans we should want better than we have and I can't get away from the overriding factor that it's a bit stale right now and has been for some time (the crowd levels seem to agree with that).

I absolutely don't want this to seem negative to the success they have had in breaking even, being sustainable etc. But I don't see how that model will get the on field success I want as a fan, it just doesn't feel likely and I'd like to think the owner now has a legacy of a strong platform to build on, now find someone who's willing to spend. I am fully aware that may not exist but I hope it does.

[silent majority]

bfyp,

Some excellent points in your post, ones that will need some detail to be able to answer properly. So, bear with me, I'm a bit stuck for time at the moment, but I will respond.

[Jonathan]

The discussion has taken an adult turn here, and that’s good to see. Respect to BFYP for making those points in an honest, constructive manner and with substantiation where possible. And respect to SM for the response. If things could proceed in this way more often, this forum would be a lot more enjoyable.

[Filo]

Thanks SM, good points in there, some I agree with some not so much, which I'll explain.

I don't doubt we have a decent wage bill for this league. I'd question if we had one last year though and we shouldn't lower our expectations to competing in league 2 only. I also feel we fail to invest as much as we should in saleable assets.  Just look at Ben White man as an example of that. We've not gone after someone with real potential over the past few years and some of our rivals have.  Do we need to spend more to compete where we'd like as fans? Yes we absolutely do, we need a bigger wage bill and a bigger transfer budget.  Other clubs have attacked the transfer window already, the messages Drfc send out right now feel negative on that.

Do I want to see further investment/funding? Yes I absolutely do. To agree with your point I don't know where that is or if it's possible, but I'd say other clubs have found it so why can't we?  To get where we as fans want we need that. None of us want to plod in league 2 in front of 4-5000 fans.  So yes, to get there we probably do need alternate owners as I can't see signs that the current owner wants to spend the cash. You make a very valid point that this may be happening and we don't know about it.

That is not a criticism but it's where I feel football is right now.  Why shouldn't we want to be similar to the clubs of our size who've made it to the top?  We shouldn't just settle for what we've had the last few years being unable to retain players/coaches or attract the calibre we'd like.

As for infrastructure, I take your points but I also see negatives.  The stadium feels a little tiring and it's seriously filthy.  We've a scoreboard that hasn't worked for months l, lights that flicker or don't work and some things feel a little tired.  Granted there may have been some improvements but in the things we can see the image portrayed is a little negative.

Yes I'm being a football fan with these points, yes they may well be unrealistic, but as fans we should want better than we have and I can't get away from the overriding factor that it's a bit stale right now and has been for some time (the crowd levels seem to agree with that).

I absolutely don't want this to seem negative to the success they have had in breaking even, being sustainable etc. But I don't see how that model will get the on field success I want as a fan, it just doesn't feel likely and I'd like to think the owner now has a legacy of a strong platform to build on, now find someone who's willing to spend. I am fully aware that may not exist but I hope it does.

Excellent points raised and well put across

[ncRover]

Molyneux, Miller and Maxwell are of the right age and career stages to potentially be saleable assets. Early days to say we haven’t invested in any saleable assets since Copps became HoF which is all we can judge on.

If we ignore Tomlin (doesn’t really count for me), Biggins is the oldest signing at 26.

[Draytonian III]

The discussion has taken an adult turn here, and that’s good to see. Respect to BFYP for making those points in an honest, constructive manner and with substantiation where possible. And respect to SM for the response. If things could proceed in this way more often, this forum would be a lot more enjoyable.

Well said that man

[silent majority]

Thanks SM, good points in there, some I agree with some not so much, which I'll explain.

I don't doubt we have a decent wage bill for this league. I'd question if we had one last year though and we shouldn't lower our expectations to competing in league 2 only. I also feel we fail to invest as much as we should in saleable assets.  Just look at Ben White man as an example of that. We've not gone after someone with real potential over the past few years and some of our rivals have.  Do we need to spend more to compete where we'd like as fans? Yes we absolutely do, we need a bigger wage bill and a bigger transfer budget.  Other clubs have attacked the transfer window already, the messages Drfc send out right now feel negative on that.

Do I want to see further investment/funding? Yes I absolutely do. To agree with your point I don't know where that is or if it's possible, but I'd say other clubs have found it so why can't we?  To get where we as fans want we need that. None of us want to plod in league 2 in front of 4-5000 fans.  So yes, to get there we probably do need alternate owners as I can't see signs that the current owner wants to spend the cash. You make a very valid point that this may be happening and we don't know about it.

That is not a criticism but it's where I feel football is right now.  Why shouldn't we want to be similar to the clubs of our size who've made it to the top?  We shouldn't just settle for what we've had the last few years being unable to retain players/coaches or attract the calibre we'd like.

As for infrastructure, I take your points but I also see negatives.  The stadium feels a little tiring and it's seriously filthy.  We've a scoreboard that hasn't worked for months l, lights that flicker or don't work and some things feel a little tired.  Granted there may have been some improvements but in the things we can see the image portrayed is a little negative.

Yes I'm being a football fan with these points, yes they may well be unrealistic, but as fans we should want better than we have and I can't get away from the overriding factor that it's a bit stale right now and has been for some time (the crowd levels seem to agree with that).

I absolutely don't want this to seem negative to the success they have had in breaking even, being sustainable etc. But I don't see how that model will get the on field success I want as a fan, it just doesn't feel likely and I'd like to think the owner now has a legacy of a strong platform to build on, now find someone who's willing to spend. I am fully aware that may not exist but I hope it does.

Hi bfyp,

I'm going to try to answer your questions as simply as I can, bearing in mind that there will be areas that I can elaborate on that are supporter trust led, and that others will be observation of the club when working closely with the management team. There will also be areas that I can comment on as a supporter of DRFC and not representative of any particular role that I hold, either VSC or previously as FSA. I hope that makes sense!

1) Wage bill. Yes we have a decent wage bill for this league, certainly enough to see us promoted at the first time of asking (like it or not the size of the playing budget should be indicative of where you finish in the league). Last year we also had a decent wage bill, more than enough to have kept us in that division. We, the VSC, have not yet seen the accounts that cover last season so we can't confirm whether our understanding was correct or not, but Richard Poole, the Finance Director, has always been honest and accurate with us and therefore I see no reason to disbelieve anything that he told us. Richard is a very welcoming individual and is always ready to chat over a coffee if we feel the need to sit down and go through anything.

2) Lowering expectations. I can't agree that is happening or is planned to happen. I've said it numerous times but the club is financially better off when in LG1 rather than LG2, both in terms of ticket revenue but more crucially from commercial revenue and solidarity and TV revenue. Last season everybody involved with the club thought we would survive, they invested in the transfer windows and felt that we would turn it around. Of course that didn't happen but the plan was to stay in LG1.

3) Do we invest enough in saleable assets? To be honest I can't answer that one, its not an area where I have more experience than anyone else. What I can say though is that its a key area for the club, we just haven't got in right on enough occasions. In recent years our playing squad has been decimated, but I would put that down to 2 things, one being Covid which received a comprehensive response by the club in order for the club to feel prepared for whatever it threw at it, and secondly having Darren Moore as manager. (This is very much a personal viewpoint substantiated by a couple of things I interpreted) DM wasn't interested in the younger players at the club, he never watched them play or felt it was his responsibility to bring through or nurture anyone. Just look at the squad he inherited and see what we had when he left. I, for one, was chuffed to bits when he left.

4) Clubs attacking the transfer window? Does that always work though? We've had occasions when we've jumped at the first opportunity and that hasn't worked, and we've also waited until better players become available later in the window and that hasn't worked either. I would suggest (as a DRFC fan) that we just concentrate on bringing in the best we can.

5) Further investment/funding. This is in no way an easy one to answer. What we have seen for a number of years is TB and Co providing funding to enable GB to develop a business model that ensure we generate enough income to keep us ahead of the pack. GB has managed that, and very successfully. As an EFL club we generate more revenue as a percentage of total revenue from commercial operations than just about any other club, and that's an official position endorsed by the EFL. That is a remarkable achievement and yet people are so quick to condemn GB. I find that bizarre! As for additional investment it can only come about by one or two routes. Either we keep striving commercially, or TB and Co decide to provide even more funding for the club in addition to the £20m+ or so that he's already provided. I don't think looking for an additional investor/owner is the correct path, far too complicated. However the very fact that this club now operate debt free and can operate at a profit should make it attractive for somebody to make an offer. TB has always said that if somebody comes along who can do a better job then he would step aside. I'm sure that will happen at some point. (As a fan of DRFC I would like TB and Co just to say here's another £2m a year on top of what you're making and just blow everybody away! I can't see that happening however) One further avenue is that the Fan Led Review has built into it a new relationship between the EPL and EFL which would change our financial set up!

6) Be careful what you wish for. Yes, I know everybody hates that phrase but it's still very true. EFL clubs do not operate in a sustainable fashion, virtually every one of them operates at a loss, some much more than others. Crawley is a mess, Southend too, WBA could be (more than likely) the next major failure. Millwall are now sat on a debt pile of £120m. This is why my former colleagues and I spent a long time creating the document that proved the need for the FLR. You say its not where football is at the moment, no it's not, but I for one don't want the club going in that direction.

7) Why shouldn't we be similar to other clubs? I don't think there's a desire to be successful at any cost, most definitely not. But putting your fan hat to one side and putting your business hat back on what would you do? Attracting players and coaches, as you mention, hasn't been good to us in the last couple of seasons, definitely agree with you on that one. But we have been let down by coaches who viewed their financial success as more important than our club, both DM and Grant Mc left because they were tempted away by bigger wages. But when you see how much they get paid in the Championship you can't blame them. A lack of decent candidates recently hasn't helped, and its no scecret that I wasn't a fan of  RW, I still believe he should never have joined us.

8) Infrastructure. Considerable money has been spent at Cantley Park, certainly since JC took on his new role. Yes the Eco Power is looking a bit tired and it is something I've raised with Gavin. The catering outlets should be maintained by the catering provider, but that of course isn't happening due to them running down their contract. What I do know is there are plans to make improvements in certain areas, hopefully that will come about shortly. As the VSC we helped the club gain access to some funding and also provided a considerable sum ourselves to provide better facilities for all supporters, hopefully that is evidenced soon.

Hopefully that answers some of your points. And I don't doubt that it will raise more questions!

Answering some of this might be a bit easier over a coffee than having it typed out on here, but happy to do either.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Very informative S_M. From a fans perspective always difficult to remove our emotional attachment and separate pure business acumen.

I think the point you make about TB allowing GB & Co to maximise income streams and the business model is a key one.

Projecting income from all activities to ultimately provide a competitive budget and cover our costs is no easy task and actual income at the end of any trading year can easily fall short, and that's where TB provides that insurance to plug the gaps. Gaps over time that resulted in losses over £30m of which TB is the major contributor since the passing of DW.

Unfortunately, there are fans who see TB as a wealthy man who doesn't appear to be committing funds directly into a 'promotion push' and there lies a perception that he's not as emotionally or financially committed to the clubs success in the same way we are when we invest our ticket money.

In reality, the equation is no different to when all three amigos, JR, DW and TB were aligned by committing to covering those losses, until the funding gap became unsustainable, when the sums didn't add up.

It's a shame these days in football, the amount of risks taken and debt accrued by clubs seem to be a badge of honour whilst being debt free or 'sustainable' is a dirty word.

That all said, it's all about points gained on the pitch and no matter how we analyse it, collectively we haven't been good enough in the last few seasons.

Let's all hope our new strategy with Copps as HoF delivers success sooner rather than later and shows we are all getting better value for money.

[ravenrover]

I see we have a prominent twitter poster, and previous VSC poster saying self sufficiency = standing still

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I see we have a prominent twitter poster, and previous VSC poster saying self sufficiency = standing still

Does that translate to ambition = debt = success?

[silent majority]

I see we have a prominent twitter poster, and previous VSC poster saying self sufficiency = standing still

Does that translate to ambition = debt = success?

Success doesn't necessarily follow though does it Baz?

People can't see the logic here, they assume that one follows the other, it doesn't. Nor does being self-sustainable mean a lack of ambition.

Scunthorpe were ambitious, they also ran up a lot of debt, and look where they are!

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Firstly thanks to SM for a very comprehensive reply, I think it's great to have some differing viewpoints and really detailed discussion.

I think in conclusion it has helped me think about it a little more and that's great.  The thing that sticks out for me is the business head Vs supporter head and that's exactly why I'd never ever work in football, the emotions of it get in the way.

What I will say is that to me it's clear we've got our house in order really well to have a strong fixed base, something Gavin's article alludes to.  As fans we should absolutely not detract from that at all. We need it, no doubt there.

I actually think most of us are on the same wavelength. That solid foundation is great but I do think to really kick on we do need that extra funding.  Interesting to me that there is a point about a complete buy out as opposed to new co owner and I can see fully why thats a better option. Make no mistake selling a self funding club is far easier than a failing one.  I do think it inevitably needs to happen at some point, but I do agree with the point that it shouldn't just be to anyone.

What I find fascinating is whether this will happen.  As is said it's all built up well off the pitch so will we see someone come in who will commit to spending to get where footballing wise we want to be.

I think the clubs at a bit of a cross roads and where we go next is fascinating, but as has been said at the very least we have a safety net.

I think Baz touches on a good point on the owner and I think it's a fair point that he's a wealthy man who doesn't want to spend big like JR did.  I think that's a fair point that some make, but I do also sympathise because we have got a club that won't simply disappear it has a future. For me it's just what that future will be. Does someone want to come in and commit a few quid each year or do we live only within what we generate. To be successful on the pitch I do feel it needs to be more than that.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I see we have a prominent twitter poster, and previous VSC poster saying self sufficiency = standing still

Does that translate to ambition = debt = success?

Success doesn't necessarily follow though does it Baz?

People can't see the logic here, they assume that one follows the other, it doesn't. Nor does being self-sustainable mean a lack of ambition.

Scunthorpe were ambitious, they also ran up a lot of debt, and look where they are!

I also agree with this, I should have as said.  Any extra funds should not be with big risk and debt 100%.

[Chris Black come back]

Firstly thanks to SM for a very comprehensive reply, I think it's great to have some differing viewpoints and really detailed discussion.

I think in conclusion it has helped me think about it a little more and that's great.  The thing that sticks out for me is the business head Vs supporter head and that's exactly why I'd never ever work in football, the emotions of it get in the way.

What I will say is that to me it's clear we've got our house in order really well to have a strong fixed base, something Gavin's article alludes to.  As fans we should absolutely not detract from that at all. We need it, no doubt there.

I actually think most of us are on the same wavelength. That solid foundation is great but I do think to really kick on we do need that extra funding.  Interesting to me that there is a point about a complete buy out as opposed to new co owner and I can see fully why thats a better option. Make no mistake selling a self funding club is far easier than a failing one.  I do think it inevitably needs to happen at some point, but I do agree with the point that it shouldn't just be to anyone.

What I find fascinating is whether this will happen.  As is said it's all built up well off the pitch so will we see someone come in who will commit to spending to get where footballing wise we want to be.

I think the clubs at a bit of a cross roads and where we go next is fascinating, but as has been said at the very least we have a safety net.

I think Baz touches on a good point on the owner and I think it's a fair point that he's a wealthy man who doesn't want to spend big like JR did.  I think that's a fair point that some make, but I do also sympathise because we have got a club that won't simply disappear it has a future. For me it's just what that future will be. Does someone want to come in and commit a few quid each year or do we live only within what we generate. To be successful on the pitch I do feel it needs to be more than that.

I think the answer is that the "solid foundation" becomes "promotion to the Championship" if all the pieces fall exactly together e.g. the right manager, maybe a player sale windfall, some canny signings, a system that works with the players we have. Both Rotherham United and Peterborough do this in different ways. You can see with Rotherham United that as soon as one piece in their system got taken away when Warne left, it has all gone to shit.

[i_ateallthepies]

Firstly thanks to SM for a very comprehensive reply, I think it's great to have some differing viewpoints and really detailed discussion.

I think in conclusion it has helped me think about it a little more and that's great.  The thing that sticks out for me is the business head Vs supporter head and that's exactly why I'd never ever work in football, the emotions of it get in the way.

What I will say is that to me it's clear we've got our house in order really well to have a strong fixed base, something Gavin's article alludes to.  As fans we should absolutely not detract from that at all. We need it, no doubt there.

I actually think most of us are on the same wavelength. That solid foundation is great but I do think to really kick on we do need that extra funding.  Interesting to me that there is a point about a complete buy out as opposed to new co owner and I can see fully why thats a better option. Make no mistake selling a self funding club is far easier than a failing one.  I do think it inevitably needs to happen at some point, but I do agree with the point that it shouldn't just be to anyone.

What I find fascinating is whether this will happen.  As is said it's all built up well off the pitch so will we see someone come in who will commit to spending to get where footballing wise we want to be.

I think the clubs at a bit of a cross roads and where we go next is fascinating, but as has been said at the very least we have a safety net.

I think Baz touches on a good point on the owner and I think it's a fair point that he's a wealthy man who doesn't want to spend big like JR did.  I think that's a fair point that some make, but I do also sympathise because we have got a club that won't simply disappear it has a future. For me it's just what that future will be. Does someone want to come in and commit a few quid each year or do we live only within what we generate. To be successful on the pitch I do feel it needs to be more than that.

When you talk about 'where we want to be', pud I believe you are talking about 'we' the fans.  So, where is that?  From past experience, no amount of success on the field will satisfy some fans to the point they don't want to go still higher.  You will remember so many discussions when we had our great run in the Championship where some were talking of reaching 'the promised land' of the Premiership.  To talk about where we want to be means absolutely nothing because it means something different to each and every one of us.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I posed this question elsewhere when someone said "Being sustainable means standing still"

If being sustainable equals standing still, how do you plan to be unsustainable to move forward?

[BobG]

Beautiful  DBR. Plain beautiful!

It'll be too subtle though for the author of the syllogism to which you refer.

BobG

[Canadian Rover]

I posed this question elsewhere when someone said "Being sustainable means standing still"

If being sustainable equals standing still, how do you plan to be unsustainable to move forward?

I guess it means simply either increasing revenues or decreasing costs.

It's a tough economy to do either - but the added revenues should be the option and that in turn spent on the first team or development of players into our first team. I keep banging on about our youth team and development into first team - truthfully who can say Woltman has done any better than Kuleya (when he was given an opportunity) we can never sell Woltman but could make a huge profit from the likes of a Kuleya type. Even 1/2 a season of success could see a million pound profit on a youth player.

I am desperate not just to see us improve as a team but to improve as a system.

In this day and age it means investing more in the first team (long or short term).

[roversdude]

Canadian Rover completely agree with the Kuleya v Woltman comment, however if Kuleya is getting more game time maybe that aids his development and we get an even better version back. All that said I would still love to see him here coming off the bench.
Eddie Jones hit the nail on the head when talking about his England squad - he has starters and finishers. At the moment we have a decent set of starters but the finishers are not quite good enough

[goalkick]

Spot on there, looking at the bench yesterday did not inspire a lot of confidence.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I posed this question elsewhere when someone said "Being sustainable means standing still"

If being sustainable equals standing still, how do you plan to be unsustainable to move forward?

I guess it means simply either increasing revenues or decreasing costs.

It's a tough economy to do either - but the added revenues should be the option and that in turn spent on the first team or development of players into our first team. I keep banging on about our youth team and development into first team - truthfully who can say Woltman has done any better than Kuleya (when he was given an opportunity) we can never sell Woltman but could make a huge profit from the likes of a Kuleya type. Even 1/2 a season of success could see a million pound profit on a youth player.

I am desperate not just to see us improve as a team but to improve as a system.

In this day and age it means investing more in the first team (long or short term).

That's all sensible and within a sustainable approach. It's unfortunate that the toxic fans can't distinguish between sustainabllity and self sufficiency.

That all said, we do need strengthening and unfortunately more injuries have been bestowed upon us leaving a lack of depth.

It will be disappointing if we miss the opportunity to give this squad a leg up when we're close to being a really good side in touch of the play offs and beyond.

I think we have seen an improvement of late that indicates the players are responding to DS and confidence may be growing. Let's not let it slip.

[Canadian Rover]

I posed this question elsewhere when someone said "Being sustainable means standing still"

If being sustainable equals standing still, how do you plan to be unsustainable to move forward?

I guess it means simply either increasing revenues or decreasing costs.

It's a tough economy to do either - but the added revenues should be the option and that in turn spent on the first team or development of players into our first team. I keep banging on about our youth team and development into first team - truthfully who can say Woltman has done any better than Kuleya (when he was given an opportunity) we can never sell Woltman but could make a huge profit from the likes of a Kuleya type. Even 1/2 a season of success could see a million pound profit on a youth player.

I am desperate not just to see us improve as a team but to improve as a system.

In this day and age it means investing more in the first team (long or short term).

Looks like progress is happening here with Sinclair's new role.

[EasyforDennis]

A very interesting and enjoyable read. I agree with most of the comments, some from prominent posters I have not always agreed with. Shame a couple of posters have to be petty and spoil it.