Brexit and the NHS

[wilts rover]

The Vote Leave video showing what the NHS would be like if we left the EU and 'took back control'. No further comment:

https://twitter.com/WritesBright/status/1609980791936745472

[BobG]

Thank you Wilts. I have forwarded to a number of people with worthwile influence.

BobG

[roverstillidie91]

Privatisation

[ncRover]

I didn’t realise this had gone viral when it came in to my mind the other day. I commented it on the cost of brexit thread.

Can’t believe it passed advertising standards at the time.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I didn’t realise this had gone viral when it came in to my mind the other day. I commented it on the cost of brexit thread.

Can’t believe it passed advertising standards at the time.

What about the Leni Riefenstahl poster that Farage unveiled, while an MP was having her face shot off by a far right terrorist, crazed on stories of immigration?

[ncRover]

I didn’t realise this had gone viral when it came in to my mind the other day. I commented it on the cost of brexit thread.

Can’t believe it passed advertising standards at the time.

What about the Leni Riefenstahl poster that Farage unveiled, while an MP was having her face shot off by a far right terrorist, crazed on stories of immigration?

The breaking point one?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yep

[ncRover]

Yep

Yeah horrible.

[BobG]

Christ. I'd never heard of that, Leni Riefenstahl? Surely no British person, not one, could ever use anything from her?????

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

No Bob. UKIP used a photo of refugees in Slovenia that mirrored images in a Nazi propaganda film.

https://twitter.com/cdbeaton/status/743397112923230212

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here's what a bunch of Kitsons UKIP were.

1) The original photo was taken by a professional photographer who wanted to show the misery that the refugees were going through. Farage used it to wind up bigots.

2) In the original photo, there was a very prominent white face close to the front. Guess which is the only face in the entire photo that was obscured by the carefully positioned "Leave the EU on 23rd June" text box? They even cropped the bottom of the photo off, so that that face would be obscured.

Shameless, amoral bas**rds.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Has the NHS had an extra 350m a week?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yes it has. And we've increased taxes and borrowed money (deferred taxes) to fund that. We haven't grown a magic money tree by leaving the EU. That this would be the outcome, of course, was well known to the t**ts who spread that message.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

So despite the conjecture the government has done it, it's a total non story. We also seem to forget what the remain camp said would happen with the funding if we left, but it's ok for them to have been wrong isn't it?

[SydneyRover]

My understanding of johnson's claim (splutter) was that brexit was going to create it (that's right create it) has brexit created 350m per wekk? how much has brexit created? isn't this what the whole shit fight is about with brexit and the tories pure fiction.

[ncRover]

My understanding of johnson's claim (splutter) was that brexit was going to create it (that's right create it) has brexit created 350m per wekk? how much has brexit created? isn't this what the whole shit fight is about with brexit and the tories pure fiction.

I guess with something as complicated as the economy, it’s hard to say how much has been lost / gained. It’s hard to see net positives at present. If the recent shocks to the economy could have been foreseen, people would vote for stability could they go back. Especially as the immigration rhetoric has died down.

But Leave’s main selling point was immigration. I think remain should have been selling the practicalities of immigration rather than focusing on moralising those with attitudes against it, even though I disagree with them. It wasn’t an argument that could be won in the way that they tried to.

If David Cameron as PM thought it would be bad for the economy, it baffles me as to why he put forward a referendum.

But anyway, the damage has been done and I’m sure all this has been said on this forum before.

[SydneyRover]

NC, pud is an accountant with a whole team working for him I'm sure he would be able to tell how much brexit has made for the uk.

..... I'm sure he will be able to say what sort of contribution that has made to the NHS as he suggested in his comment above.

[normal rules]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjD3tzWzbz8AhXhmFwKHVhPCiIQFnoECA8QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nuffieldtrust.org.uk%2Fresource%2Fthe-long-goodbye-exploring-rates-of-staff-leaving-the-nhs-and-social-care&usg=AOvVaw2arQMsb_DE7a-B0JDzcHy6

Not one single mention of brexit in this report. But you can spin it how you like. It’s the same in policing. Young entrants are leaving in droves because of pay, work life balance etc. a lot going to work for the private sector. A mate of mine who was working in our local economic crime unit on 40k has just taken a job working for nationwide bank paying double for less hours and more family friendly. A lad I know who worked in cybercrime done the same and gone to work in IT security for considerably more pay and better conditions. My niece worked as a nurse in Birmingham. She has left citing covid burnout and now works for Turner and Townsend as a project manager on much more pay and no shifts. Public sector has always fallen shorter of private sector pay and conditions. The gap is getting bigger. Much bigger. It’s no wonder the NHS is in the state it is. Policing is going the same way. They can’t give jobs away at the moment. Who would want to be a copper these days? Or a nurse?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bang on NR.

That was ALWAYS the raison d'être of this Tory Govt. They have an obsessive hatred of publicly funded services. They think the public sector are leeches that suck value out of society. They think the public sector should be screwed down and the brightest and best rewarded by the private sector.

That sounds OTT, but how else do you account for the fact that the post inflation wages of nurses have gone down by 20% under these bas**rds? Or the post inflation wages of junior NHS doctors, down by 26%.

As you say, who would choose to save lives, catch criminals or teach kids these days?

[normal rules]

The problem this and any govt have is funding the pay rises required to keep staff retention and recruitment where it needs to be.

[SydneyRover]

And that's where the circle meets up again NR, brexit.

[Not Now Kato]

I received this from my eldest Son this morning....
 
"This country is extremely short of nurses. Nobody disputes that. So do the Tory government:
A. Recruit more nurses
B. Settle the pay dispute to make it a more attractive career.
Or.
C. Introduce legislation to allow them to sack a nurse who uses her right to withdraw her labour, leaving even fewer nurses in the NHS.
It must make sense to the tories but I can’t get my head around it. "
 

[BillyStubbsTears]

The problem this and any govt have is funding the pay rises required to keep staff retention and recruitment where it needs to be.

NR. This is a problem that has been over a decade in the making.  It's the case and the result of an economic experiment in Austerity that has f**ked us up for a very, very long time. Some of us were pointing this out in 2010, and exactly what we said would happen, has happened.

We had a serious debt problem after the GFC.

The standard textbook way to deal with that was to get the economy firing again by Govt borrowing more in the short term. Pay teachers, doctors, nurses, coppers. Get them  earning more and spending, so the private sector had customers. Then the private sector would boom. Then Govt would get more in tax. Then the debt would come down.

Standard, textbook approach, known for 80 years. And it works.

But it needs an acceptance that Govt is part of the solution.

The Tories are ideologically against that.

So they ripped up the textbook in 2010. They cut back public spending. They had years, and years of grinding down the wages of doctors, nurses, coppers, teachers.

The economy tanked.

We had the worst recovery from a recession for 220 years.

Tax income didn't go up.

The debt didn't come down.

So they doubled down and said the solution is to crush down public sector wages still further.

Absolute, utter shit show. All avoidable. These t**ts should never, ever get into power again.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So despite the conjecture the government has done it, it's a total non story. We also seem to forget what the remain camp said would happen with the funding if we left, but it's ok for them to have been wrong isn't it?

That's a breathtaking take you have there BFYP.

Yes of course they've done it. But they've done it in an environment where were are significantly poorer BECAUSE OF Brexit. They've done it by passing the bill to taxpayers and public servants who's wages are being crushed down.

And you just "Meh" it?

And what were the "remain camp" wrong about on the funding?

[ravenrover]

I see it's finally come into the open, Tory backbencher says in Parliament is it time to move NHS to an insurance based model. Trouble there is, the backbenchers usually say what the top Tories are thinking

[Glyn_Wigley]

I see it's finally come into the open, Tory backbencher says in Parliament is it time to move NHS to an insurance based model. Trouble there is, the backbenchers usually say what the top Tories are thinking

Is a private insurance company making 'donations' to him/her?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

So despite the conjecture the government has done it, it's a total non story. We also seem to forget what the remain camp said would happen with the funding if we left, but it's ok for them to have been wrong isn't it?

That's a breathtaking take you have there BFYP.

Yes of course they've done it. But they've done it in an environment where were are significantly poorer BECAUSE OF Brexit. They've done it by passing the bill to taxpayers and public servants who's wages are being crushed down.

And you just "Meh" it?

And what were the "remain camp" wrong about on the funding?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-would-lose-10-billion-8136966

Interesting take there, 1000 nurses cut per trust and a cut in funding - I don't believe that happened did it?

There is a very valid point you make around the funding not coming from Brexit etc, there's plenty of evidence suggesting that is the case.  But to claim the NHS hasn't seen the funding isn't correct is it, nor have we seen the cuts speaches like the above claimed.  There were false narratives both ways and not only because they wanted to portray that (in some cases it was deliberate) but in some cases they interpreted it wrongly.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

NC, pud is an accountant with a whole team working for him I'm sure he would be able to tell how much brexit has made for the uk.

..... I'm sure he will be able to say what sort of contribution that has made to the NHS as he suggested in his comment above.

That's not an accountant's job, we leave that to the economists....

[danumdon]

I see it's finally come into the open, Tory backbencher says in Parliament is it time to move NHS to an insurance based model. Trouble there is, the backbenchers usually say what the top Tories are thinking

I don't think its news that a Tory backbencher thinks that the NHS needs a root and branch reorganisation, the whole management and funding model needs looking at, if i remember rightly prior to 2010 there was plenty of mumblings then about the way the service was funded and managed.

What i've never understood is that the NHS as a national provider of basic healthcare has never gone out of its way to try to stem its major issues at source. It should be obvious to everyone that as a nation we don't look to be getting healthier, in fact if anything all metrics point in the opposite direction, for the first time in a very long period life expectancy has dropped and it looks like the next generation are going to have much worse outcomes because of it with all the chronic complications that come with an unhealthier population.

One example in my industry, staff used to have a very strict medical examinations, with periodical follow ups and target achievements. weight restrictions used to be applied rigorously, we had trainees who had to take 2 to 3 months off work and reduce their weight until they fell back into the required standard, it was that tough. Then what happened, as if overnight a great many of the standards and restrictions were removed. when staff go for the periodical medicals now the nurse does not even bat an eyelid if they're overweight, even in some cases very obese, its like you cannot comment or point out that someone is overweight for fear of being accused of fat shaming people? How is this a good thing in the longer term? they way social media and the MSM now push this narrative about being "inclusive" has created an attitude of live and let live, however any individual wants to do so, nothings now classed as wrong!!

Why aren't they shouting from the rooftops about promoting healthy lifestyles, reducing smoking and drinking, adapting far more healthier eating and pushing people to get out and exercise more, all actions that if really pursued properly would reduce the expectations on the NHS massively. Its almost as if they are loath to shout it too loud as it may reduce their workloads and budget requirements. I mean you only have to drop into any medical facility these days, the staff overall look like they need some serious discussion taking place with their health provider about their overall health!!

We've become a nation that accepts people for what they are not for what they can become, massive difference, whilst ever this attitude pervades then as a nation we will slowly sink to irrelevance. This has nothing to do with Brexit but a nation that's managing its decline, poorly.

[normal rules]

I heard the other day that a young female police officer, very young in service and just out of training, who had just gone on to her shifts resigned because she did not realise she had to work shifts!
I heard another of a young male officer whose mum turned up on his first night shift and demanded to take him home because he had called her complaining he was “tired”
These are very genuine and very recent stories. I shift you not.
It’s no wonder the country is in shit state.