Busting the injury excuse

[Branton Red]

You're really not helping your case Branton.

Go and have a look where that squad of O'Driscoll's was in the Championship table before that run started.

And repeat. You have a knack of refusing to honestly answer questions directed at you when doing so would undermine your argument. I'll try again.

The 9 previous games. 5 points won. Equivalent to 26 points over a whole season. Embarrassing relegation form. Over those games Rovers selected in the squad: -

For 9 games: Olowu, Rowe, Close, Hurst, Molyneux, Barlow
8 games: Seaman, Brown, Lavery
7 games: Mitchell, Nelson, Long
6 games: Anderson, Agard, Biggins, Miller
5 games: Lakin

Is getting 5 points in 9 games with these players available as per above acceptable (Very marginally better than 97/98 on ppg)?

Care to answer that question?

[ForsolongaRover]

This is a relentless defence of the indefensible, but with Dickos and BST in the Schofield’s legal team, he could not be better represented. However, it would be a situation in which you would probably not want to put up the Defendant to give evidence!

[Branton Red]

You're really not helping your case Branton.

Go and have a look where that squad of O'Driscoll's was in the Championship table before that run started.

Oh and they were 14th. Which rather underlines my point that the best players were average Championship players at best - except for, very importantly, having an ace goalscorer. And doesn't negate my point about having very poor strength in depth. The form afterwards rather proves it (they finished 21st).

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'd argue that our current squad is average by the standards of this division. It is desperately lacking in quality depth in several key positions (goalkeeper, full backs, strikers in particular) and as a result, it's difficult to ride out even small numbers of injuries or losses of form in certain areas.

In 2010/11, the squad absolutely wasn't carried by an exceptional striker alone. Sharp had scored 10 league goals before that downturn. Good, but not exceptional. One more than Miller scored this year in the same number of games.  The first team squad was a competent mid-table one that had overachieved somewhat by reaching the edge of the playoffs, but at 14th, was around its average position of the previous 2 years. The form collapsed because of a string of injuries and the poor quality of the second string players. Even as exceptional a manager as O'Driscoll was unable to rectify that.

I'll repeat. I've no axe to grind for Schofield. I simply think that judgements if him that refuse to countenance that he inherited a not very good squad after 2 years of rank bad recruitment, and then insist that the squad he does have hasn't been hampered by injuries, when only 5 first team players have been available for more than 75% of the games this season, is not a balanced assessment.

[Chris Black come back]

We are in the lowest professional tier and have will finish in our lowest League placing since 1997/98, having played by and large, dreadful football the entire season, often against sides with half our resources. There are mitigations for this but perhaps best for everyone to stand back and just accept how awful it has been, yet again, this season. 

[ncRover]

This is a relentless defence of the indefensible, but with Dickos and BST in the Schofield’s legal team, he could not be better represented. However, it would be a situation in which you would probably not want to put up the Defendant to give evidence!

Your honour I have asked Billy and Dickos 2 straightforward questions for which they have failed to answer.

[sedwardsdrfc]

Defending it for sport sake same as the people who want club Doncaster abolished and post about it for sport. Arguing because it’s enjoyable. Can hardly have your enjoyable argument if you agree with the 90+%. Also can’t feel superior.

Reality is, forgetting specific arguments, DS has generally been very poor. And to continue with him is a huge risk exactly the same as sticking with McSheffery last season was. Don’t think it’s a risk we should take and the best use of extra funds would be to get a manager who everyone can get behind.

We are the worst we’ve been for decades if you think a risk like sticking with Schofield is ok to take fair enough but many many more don’t.

Good news is when Dickos starts defending a manager to this degree it’s normally the beginning of the end. Funny how none of them ever turned it around despite all the arguments in favour he can come up with.

[Cramby10]

People keep splitting his results into groups but nobody ever groups his first 10 games.

Fact is the last 6 games we’ve had 5/6 first team players missing, and we’re in very poor form, before that our form was very inconsistent but it wasn’t relegation form

I'm sorry but that's just nonsense.

I engaged with you on Schofield getting 16 points from his first 10 games on another thread. It was due to new manager bounce and narrow, unconvincing home wins over pre take over Gillingham and Rochdale. Our easisest fixtures of the season

Read the opening 3 paragraphs on my OP. In his 11th-20th games (or his 2nd 10 games) to 7th March (before you're claiming the injuries seriously kicked in) Rovers got 10 points. That is relegation form.

Is 6 points from our last 12 games acceptable? You don't seem to have answered that question.

Of course not,
I just don’t understand how people can just ignore he’s trying to mould a team into how he wants to play without making any significant signings.
The squad is full of players signed by another manager who wanted to play a different way, yes he could change his preferred style but then we’d just be playing how we were under mcsheffrey.
He needs to be given the summer to build his own team and playing the style he wants with players who are suited to that.

in a recent interview Grant McCann said that when he first joined us he quickly realised that he couldn’t play the way / system that he wanted so had to adapt to something different with the players he had at the time. And low and behold he got a tune out of them and got us in the play offs.
Maybe he would have, in time, changed us to the way he wanted but he knew he had to get us functioning immediately, to buy himself time and entertain the fans.
That’s the sign of a good manager. Pragmatic, adaptable, intelligent, flexible…………..

Mccann joined in the summer with still 2 months of the transfer window left.
Obviously joining in the summer gives an opportunity to try new systems but also gives you two months with a full budget to sign players
Certainly not the same scenario

of course it is. He saw he didn’t have the players to play how he wanted. His words. So didn’t!
Until like this current f**kwit. He wants to play a certain way but moans he ain’t got the players / funds to do it. So why bloody do it then?

I’ve explained why it’s not the same scenario

and I’m telling you you’re wrong

[dickos1]

How can it be wrong,
Getting appointed 2 months before the season starts with 2 months to sign your own players and a host of out of contract players and good quality loans available.
Its simply not the same scenario as being appointed of a struggling side, with the transfer window closed.

[Cramby10]

Not the point I’m making whatsoever. The point I’m making is that he McCann assessed the situation and knew he couldn’t play the way he wanted with the players at his disposal. And that’s with 2 months of summer and a transfer window. So adapted a style to suit. That’s called being pragmatic and using common sense.
This f**king fool thinks we can play like Barcelona regardless and has shown nothing, absolutely nothing, to adjust his style or expectations to suit the vastly inferior players, compared to Mccanns, on his hands. That’s called being stubborn, inflexible and quite frankly, thick!!!

[dickos1]

Defending it for sport sake same as the people who want club Doncaster abolished and post about it for sport. Arguing because it’s enjoyable. Can hardly have your enjoyable argument if you agree with the 90+%. Also can’t feel superior.

Reality is, forgetting specific arguments, DS has generally been very poor. And to continue with him is a huge risk exactly the same as sticking with McSheffery last season was. Don’t think it’s a risk we should take and the best use of extra funds would be to get a manager who everyone can get behind.

We are the worst we’ve been for decades if you think a risk like sticking with Schofield is ok to take fair enough but many many more don’t.

Good news is when Dickos starts defending a manager to this degree it’s normally the beginning of the end. Funny how none of them ever turned it around despite all the arguments in favour he can come up with.

As I’ve pointed out before, I’ve defended managers months before they’ve left, when ferguson got us relegated being a prime example.
If the negative folk had got their way back then we probably wouldn’t have come straight back up

[drfchound]

You're really not helping your case Branton.

Go and have a look where that squad of O'Driscoll's was in the Championship table before that run started.

Look where we were in L2 when DS was appointed.

[ncRover]

People keep splitting his results into groups but nobody ever groups his first 10 games.

Fact is the last 6 games we’ve had 5/6 first team players missing, and we’re in very poor form, before that our form was very inconsistent but it wasn’t relegation form

Yes but it’s not the first 10 games anymore.

The first 10 games during which we got beat by  sixth-tier King’s Lynn with a full strength side? When we got thumped by Tranmere and Colchester with a full strength side?

Every side loses games and it’s just as easy to twist the bad run with the odd positive result in the same way, barrow, Swindon, tranmere etc.
cup shocks happen all the time to bigger and better than us.

Why is the “good run” not balancing out this bad run in the larger sample size that is the 30 game form table?

No answer dicko?

[Chris Black come back]

Defending it for sport sake same as the people who want club Doncaster abolished and post about it for sport. Arguing because it’s enjoyable. Can hardly have your enjoyable argument if you agree with the 90+%. Also can’t feel superior.

Reality is, forgetting specific arguments, DS has generally been very poor. And to continue with him is a huge risk exactly the same as sticking with McSheffery last season was. Don’t think it’s a risk we should take and the best use of extra funds would be to get a manager who everyone can get behind.

We are the worst we’ve been for decades if you think a risk like sticking with Schofield is ok to take fair enough but many many more don’t.

Good news is when Dickos starts defending a manager to this degree it’s normally the beginning of the end. Funny how none of them ever turned it around despite all the arguments in favour he can come up with.

As I’ve pointed out before, I’ve defended managers months before they’ve left, when ferguson got us relegated being a prime example.
If the negative folk had got their way back then we probably wouldn’t have come straight back up

Ferguson wasn't a good manager for us.

[dickos1]

People keep splitting his results into groups but nobody ever groups his first 10 games.

Fact is the last 6 games we’ve had 5/6 first team players missing, and we’re in very poor form, before that our form was very inconsistent but it wasn’t relegation form

Yes but it’s not the first 10 games anymore.

The first 10 games during which we got beat by  sixth-tier King’s Lynn with a full strength side? When we got thumped by Tranmere and Colchester with a full strength side?

Every side loses games and it’s just as easy to twist the bad run with the odd positive result in the same way, barrow, Swindon, tranmere etc.
cup shocks happen all the time to bigger and better than us.

Why is the “good run” not balancing out this bad run in the larger sample size that is the 30 game form table?

No answer dicko?

There’s no point, I’d tell you why as I have done many times and you’d disagree and we’d just be going round and round again spouting the same old shite

[Branton Red]

I'd argue that our current squad is average by the standards of this division. It is desperately lacking in quality depth in several key positions (goalkeeper, full backs, strikers in particular) and as a result, it's difficult to ride out even small numbers of injuries or losses of form in certain areas.

In 2010/11, the squad absolutely wasn't carried by an exceptional striker alone. Sharp had scored 10 league goals before that downturn. Good, but not exceptional. One more than Miller scored this year in the same number of games.  The first team squad was a competent mid-table one that had overachieved somewhat by reaching the edge of the playoffs, but at 14th, was around its average position of the previous 2 years. The form collapsed because of a string of injuries and the poor quality of the second string players. Even as exceptional a manager as O'Driscoll was unable to rectify that.

I'll repeat. I've no axe to grind for Schofield. I simply think that judgements if him that refuse to countenance that he inherited a not very good squad after 2 years of rank bad recruitment, and then insist that the squad he does have hasn't been hampered by injuries, when only 5 first team players have been available for more than 75% of the games this season, is not a balanced assessment.

I agree with you on 10/11. No Sharp didn't carry the team but having a 1 in 2 striker is always a big help as was having a very good manager. The second string players were worse than poor though - they simply weren't good enough for the Championship. The gulf in quality between the first XI of competent tier 2 players and their understudies was a huge chasm.

That isn't the case this season. In spite of the injuries Rovers could name a starting XI of players capable of competing in League 2 up until a handful of games ago.

I disagree that the squad is average. I'd put it down as a squad capable of making the play offs. On 1st January (the end of Dickos's first 10 games with DS at 1.6ppg) Rovers were 8th one point off the play offs. If they'd continued accruing points at the same rate to now they'd be.....9th one point off the play offs.

I can perfectly accept the point that the injuries have killed any chance of competing for the play offs this season.

What I don't accept is that the injuries are an excuse for a points return of 15 from 18 matches since 1st January. Relegation form when the manager has been able to call on a team of capable League 2 players throughout that time at least until very recently.

Of course DS has been hampered by injuries but refusing to acknowledge that the points haul in more recent months is unacceptable given the players he has had available is simply giving him a free pass.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Right, let's have another go at a bit of context.

In 2006 O'Driscoll took over a side that had finished in the top 10 of L1 for the previous 2 years. It had had nearly a decade of continuous improvement since the Richardson days. The squad had been built steadily and carefully. It included

O'Connor
Roberts
Roberts
Green
Heffernan
Lockwood
Forte
Guy
Coppinger
Lee
McCammon
Price

O'Driscoll added Sullivan, Stock and Wilson.

Without a serious injury crisis, that squad - one shot through with players who were good L1 level or better - achieved 17 points from the final 18 league games.

O'Driscoll added, the next Summer

Wellens
Hayter
Mills
Greer

By the middle of Advent, that combined squad had picked up 45 points from the previous 38 games - a scratch above relegation form for nearly a full season, from a squad that was liberally sprinkled with players who would prove themselves at the top of the Championship.

Many, many MANY of the performances in 2007 were rank bad. Turgid, pedestrian keep-ball with no drive or risk-taking from a squad that had so, so much more to offer.

 Imagine if we'd done what I for one (and the majority of our fans) vociferously called for at that time, and ditched the manager.

The moral?

Sometimes...patience...

[sedwardsdrfc]

While we are underperforming the quality of the squad SOD inherited and built is worlds apart. In the end he could afford to be stubborn with his approach but as you point out it did mean a year of getting less than the money spent warranted.

The situation now is a club in decline not on the up. With a decent but not great L2 squad. Do we think DS will still be here if he has another 6 months of poor results given how low we are? He just won’t have the time SOD had and won’t be able to count on top class players.

The case for “playing to the conditions” is a pretty strong one when your in the mire. A club that knew nothing but forward progress for 10 years can afford to wait where one at rock bottom can’t imo.

With a big transfer window he could turn it around and end up a brilliant manager. It’s a big risk to take if your the board knowing the fans aren’t happy and they can’t look to a previous record of management to justify continued patience in a way they could with SOD.

[drfchound]

Right, let's have another go at a bit of context.

In 2006 O'Driscoll took over a side that had finished in the top 10 of L1 for the previous 2 years. It had had nearly a decade of continuous improvement since the Richardson days. The squad had been built steadily and carefully. It included

O'Connor
Roberts
Roberts
Green
Heffernan
Lockwood
Forte
Guy
Coppinger
Lee
McCammon
Price

O'Driscoll added Sullivan, Stock and Wilson.

Without a serious injury crisis, that squad - one shot through with players who were good L1 level or better - achieved 17 points from the final 18 league games.

O'Driscoll added, the next Summer

Wellens
Hayter
Mills
Greer

By the middle of Advent, that combined squad had picked up 45 points from the previous 38 games - a scratch above relegation form for nearly a full season, from a squad that was liberally sprinkled with players who would prove themselves at the top of the Championship.

Many, many MANY of the performances in 2007 were rank bad. Turgid, pedestrian keep-ball with no drive or risk-taking from a squad that had so, so much more to offer.

 Imagine if we'd done what I for one (and the majority of our fans) vociferously called for at that time, and ditched the manager.

The moral?

Sometimes...patience...

The two are not even close to being comparable.
The football played by SoDs teams was always much superior to what we have to endure at present.

[Ronnie Dovers]

I just don't understand any comparisons with SoD. He had already proved he could get a team playing the way he wanted and winning games whilst doing so. There is no comparison.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I just don't understand any comparisons with SoD. He had already proved he could get a team playing the way he wanted and winning games whilst doing so. There is no comparison.

The point is that he had an extremely able squad of players, expensively assembled with no major injury crisis, and we were awful both in results and in entertainment value for nearly 12 months.

Folk forget.

[StocksArmy]

I haven't been back since the Hartlepool game. Not because of DS, not because of the players but because the lack of ambition. We have gathered a losing mentality and only recently has the penny dropped that the manager must have funds to compete in a tosh league. However, supporters may sympathise with DS that he is trying to get the team to play his way and that has been majorly stifled by injuries. But I watch the team no matter who plays and we pass into dead ends, there is no movement, no rotations in the midfield to create space, no leadership, no organization, we dont have shots or chances, we dont defend as a team, i contantly watch Ben Close breeze through games without breaking a sweat or make a challenge and hes now wearing the captains armband.....etc. All that in my opinion is a manager who can't get a tune from his players. Yes, the group as a whole aren't good enough and the group he has available now are considerably worse but, he has obviously got no authority about him to put fire in them. Its a club full of soft, nice people and there is no consequence for being continuously sh!t. Some are even being offered new contracts. Tom Anderson as an example.... 29 year old, everybody but the club knows his body cant take a full season, everybody but the club knows hes been shocking for god knows how long? Give him the captains armband and a two and a half year deal. Thats why for me DS should lose his job and JC should follow. Under no circumstances should they be the ones spending TB's cash. If they do spend the money, i think they need to be hitting the ground running next season. No excuses for the team not having time to gel either. Weve waited over 2years to have a competative team to support.

[Canadian Rover]

Right, let's have another go at a bit of context.

In 2006 O'Driscoll took over a side that had finished in the top 10 of L1 for the previous 2 years. It had had nearly a decade of continuous improvement since the Richardson days. The squad had been built steadily and carefully. It included

O'Connor
Roberts
Roberts
Green
Heffernan
Lockwood
Forte
Guy
Coppinger
Lee
McCammon
Price

O'Driscoll added Sullivan, Stock and Wilson.

Without a serious injury crisis, that squad - one shot through with players who were good L1 level or better - achieved 17 points from the final 18 league games.

O'Driscoll added, the next Summer

Wellens
Hayter
Mills
Greer

By the middle of Advent, that combined squad had picked up 45 points from the previous 38 games - a scratch above relegation form for nearly a full season, from a squad that was liberally sprinkled with players who would prove themselves at the top of the Championship.

Many, many MANY of the performances in 2007 were rank bad. Turgid, pedestrian keep-ball with no drive or risk-taking from a squad that had so, so much more to offer.

 Imagine if we'd done what I for one (and the majority of our fans) vociferously called for at that time, and ditched the manager.

The moral?

Sometimes...patience...

You can be patient whilst we are non league again.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I just don't understand any comparisons with SoD. He had already proved he could get a team playing the way he wanted and winning games whilst doing so. There is no comparison.

He'd also proved that he could get a side including several very good players (Wade Elliot, Warren Feeney, James Hayter, Carl Fletcher and a young Brian Stock) relegated.

The point was, we stuck with him for a very long time to give him the opportunity to get his squad playing how he wanted it, when many of us (Come on...hands up) were sick to death of the drivel we were watching and the points we weren't winning, week in, week out.

[Canadian Rover]

I just don't understand any comparisons with SoD. He had already proved he could get a team playing the way he wanted and winning games whilst doing so. There is no comparison.

He'd also proved that he could get a side including several very good players (Wade Elliot, Warren Feeney, James Hayter, Carl Fletcher and a young Brian Stock) relegated.

The point was, we stuck with him for a very long time to give him the opportunity to get his squad playing how he wanted it, when many of us (Come on...hands up) were sick to death of the drivel we were watching and the points we weren't winning, week in, week out.

It's nothing close to what is happening now BST.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I just don't understand any comparisons with SoD. He had already proved he could get a team playing the way he wanted and winning games whilst doing so. There is no comparison.

He'd also proved that he could get a side including several very good players (Wade Elliot, Warren Feeney, James Hayter, Carl Fletcher and a young Brian Stock) relegated.

The point was, we stuck with him for a very long time to give him the opportunity to get his squad playing how he wanted it, when many of us (Come on...hands up) were sick to death of the drivel we were watching and the points we weren't winning, week in, week out.

It's nothing close to what is happening now BST.

No. You're absolutely right. How foolish of me not to have seen

I just don't understand any comparisons with SoD. He had already proved he could get a team playing the way he wanted and winning games whilst doing so. There is no comparison.

He'd also proved that he could get a side including several very good players (Wade Elliot, Warren Feeney, James Hayter, Carl Fletcher and a young Brian Stock) relegated.

The point was, we stuck with him for a very long time to give him the opportunity to get his squad playing how he wanted it, when many of us (Come on...hands up) were sick to death of the drivel we were watching and the points we weren't winning, week in, week out.

It's nothing close to what is happening now BST.

Honest answer: Did you want O'Driscoll out by December 2007?

[Canadian Rover]

No I did not

[BillyStubbsTears]

No I did not

Well you have my respect. You were in a small minority by then. After 11 months of absolutely turgid relegation form.

[Campsall rover]

Are we the only team in League 2 with injuries?

If that is the case then why?

The fact is we are not the only club with injuries.

To make that an excuse for a record of  1 win 3 draws and 9 defeats in the last 13 games is non sense.

It’s appalling and we would finish bottom with that record over a full season.

If he isn’t sacked by 8th May then that’s me done.
I have had enough. We are a laughing stock under this coach.

[ncRover]

Northampton suffered another injury with their captain out. They beat Sutton away last night. Another thing we couldn’t do with a full strength side.