Omar Bogle and Alfie May

[Chris Black come back]

Anyone who claims that they saw from the limited opportunities that May was given, a player who would turn into what he has, is clearly deceiving themselves.

I think it was obvious that he deserved to be kept here rather than shipped out.

These are two different points.

Did he deserve to be kept rather than shipped out? He had a great attitude and a lot of fans liked him for that, so he probably did deserve to stay.

Did he show anything in his limited opportunities with us under three managers to show he would have gone on to be the success he has? No, of course he didn’t. The lad didn’t have the chance to do this as a central striker and was played literally everywhere but there. So it’s fantasy for people to say they knew they could see he would be 20+ goal League One striker.

[ravenrover]

In how many starts Billy?
Played out wide?

[RoversInSpain]

I may be wrong here, but didn’t we go something like 30 years without a striker getting 20+ league goals in a season, from Peter Kitchen in the mid seventies to Barnes or Blundell in 2004/5 ish?

I think Colin Cramb in 96/97 was first player for 20 years to score 20 goals (18 were league) in a season. It was very slim pickings for a very long time.

Cheers CBcb, forgot about super Colin Cramb. Crikey, yes 20 years is some wait
Thank you pib for the stats too.

[drfchound]

Pib, why have you changed the goalposts regarding former players who have a better scoring rate than Marquis? You originally said in Rovers history, now you say in the last 20 years!

I haven't BB. You're welcome to name any you like. You named Billy Sharp. I threw Paul Barnes into the mix, that covers the last 20-21 years. Feel free to offer up the many others who have scored as consistently for us in our history. If there are as many as you say, then I'm sure you can change my mind to your reasoning that it is "par for the course" for strikers who start consistently to score at a rate of around 1 in 2 over multiple seasons for us.

All the while continue to ignore the other points I have made and questions I have asked.

Tom Keetley
Colin Booth
Alick Jeffrey
Peter Doherty
Clarrie Jordan
Laurie Sheffield
Tony Leighton
Reg Baines
Paul Barnes
Billy Sharp

What other points have you asked? I must have missed them.

I'll copy them below for you BB.

Why would any manager drop a player producing the numbers and performances that he (JM) did, regardless of whether that would've worked in favour of May, Williams, Mandeville or anyone else?

Since JM left the club in 2019, why have none of our strikers since scored 20+ goals a season, if it's so par-for-the-course?

Is it that difficult to hold multiple ideas concurrently, that maybe both of them are good players, and that perhaps one of them was just unlucky to join the club at a time where we already had a main striker in fantastic form? Does one's achievements since leaving need to detract from the other's at DRFC?

I never suggested he should be dropped. I stated the fact that he had a massive advantage over the other strikers because he was virtually immune to being dropped or subbed. No other player playing alongside him was allowed such privilege.

Marquis played in a side with a midfield with a mindset of creating chances, and they did so by the bucket load. Marquis could afford to miss many a sitter and still score enough to make him prolific. We haven't had a side capable of creating so many chances since.

I've never said Marquis wasn't a good player. I didn't particularly like his attitude towards other fringe players like May, because he appeared to be a bit of a bully, and I don't think he went out of his way to help them either.

JM was only subbed off once in his time with us, at Gillingham with just a few minutes to go.

[Bentley Bullet]

Anyone who claims that they saw from the limited opportunities that May was given, a player who would turn into what he has, is clearly deceiving themselves.

I think it was obvious that he deserved to be kept here rather than shipped out.

These are two different points.

Did he deserve to be kept rather than shipped out? He had a great attitude and a lot of fans liked him for that, so he probably did deserve to stay.

Did he show anything in his limited opportunities with us under three managers to show he would have gone on to be the success he has? No, of course he didn’t. The lad didn’t have the chance to do this as a central striker and was played literally everywhere but there. So it’s fantasy for people to say they knew they could see he would be 20+ goal League One striker.

Yes, he did show something in his limited opportunities with us. He showed how clinical he could be playing in the middle when he scored 4 goals against Chorley in 2018.
https://youtu.be/E6M80goezH4?si=NUKSUGt0KJ2k7_Bm

.... And here's a few more... https://youtu.be/M6rTznX7K-E?si=SBLC8k7Eb5ZD7ozb

[Goole Rover]

Anyone who claims that they saw from the limited opportunities that May was given, a player who would turn into what he has, is clearly deceiving themselves.

I, along with others on this forum claimed that May had a special talent that wasn't exploited enough when he was with us. The fact that we were right proves we weren't the ones who were deceived.

Thanks BB I totally agree, as they say the proof of the pudding is in the eating. We are now told that we were deceiving ourselves, what an arrogant statement. The fact is that you and I have watched a lot of football and gained a wealth of information. We were right.

[tyke1962]

A brace already for May tonight after half an hour.

9 in 13 league games before tonight. Good on him.

Now 11 in 14 league games.

Are the Dingles playing Watters in a different role? His scoring rate has dropped right off. 4 in 32 last season and 2 in 17 this season. He’s on exactly same rate of 1 in 8 these days.

I think everyone is playing a different role this season Chris , Collins wants to play more possession type football and prefers to play with a single strike generally Devante Cole and a ten just behind in McAtee .

Watters hasn't really had a run of games in my opinion and whilst he does work hard it's not really happened for him .

His first touch isn't the best and his hold up play isn't that great either , that's not going to win you starts with a HC who wants to play possession football when you are continually giving the ball away .

I'm not a Collins fan to be honest and he's making harder work of this league than it needs to be .

Duff got it up to the strikers quickly and the midfield pressed with lots of crosses coming in , I think Duff had it right for league one last season .

[scawsby steve]

What a strange and totally unnecessary debate. Was Marquis good? Absolutely. Has he been replaced by anyone as good? No, not even anywhere near.

Did Alfie show enough potential to be kept on? Absolutely, especially when the manager who let him go then filled the team with loans.

There's no argument to be had here.

[Bentley Bullet]

A brace already for May tonight after half an hour.

9 in 13 league games before tonight. Good on him.

Now 11 in 14 league games.

Are the Dingles playing Watters in a different role? His scoring rate has dropped right off. 4 in 32 last season and 2 in 17 this season. He’s on exactly same rate of 1 in 8 these days.

I think everyone is playing a different role this season Chris , Collins wants to play more possession type football and prefers to play with a single strike generally Devante Cole and a ten just behind in McAtee .

Watters hasn't really had a run of games in my opinion and whilst he does work hard it's not really happened for him .

His first touch isn't the best and his hold up play isn't that great either , that's not going to win you starts with a HC who wants to play possession football when you are continually giving the ball away .

I'm not a Collins fan to be honest and he's making harder work of this league than it needs to be .

Duff got it up to the strikers quickly and the midfield pressed with lots of crosses coming in , I think Duff had it right for league one last season .

I like Duff. He's got a good eye for talent and knows a good prospect when he sees one.

That's a very useful skill to have and one that separates the men from the boys in the football world.

[dickos1]

Anyone who claims that they saw from the limited opportunities that May was given, a player who would turn into what he has, is clearly deceiving themselves.

I think it was obvious that he deserved to be kept here rather than shipped out.

These are two different points.

Did he deserve to be kept rather than shipped out? He had a great attitude and a lot of fans liked him for that, so he probably did deserve to stay.

Did he show anything in his limited opportunities with us under three managers to show he would have gone on to be the success he has? No, of course he didn’t. The lad didn’t have the chance to do this as a central striker and was played literally everywhere but there. So it’s fantasy for people to say they knew they could see he would be 20+ goal League One striker.

I think he showed plenty of potential in the time with us.

[dickos1]

Anyone who claims that they saw from the limited opportunities that May was given, a player who would turn into what he has, is clearly deceiving themselves.

I think it was obvious that he deserved to be kept here rather than shipped out.

After he was "shipped out" we went on to have one of the very best 12 month runs of league results in our entire history, at the top end of L1. A 12 months in which May scored a grand total of 9 League goals in L2.

Fascinating how many folk on here ignore plain facts when jumping to conclusions.

He was a grand lad and I'm chuffed to bits for him that he turned into such a good un. Isn't that enough?

They may be facts but they have very little to do with the discussion.

Moore got rid of experience for a load of very talented loan players.
Which was only going to leave us in a mess at some point.

May showed enough to be not shipped out without being given a chance by Moore

[BillyStubbsTears]

You're doing it again Dickos. Ignoring facts when making your case.

Within a couple of weeks of selling May, Moore made a permanent signing at centre forward who had, and did score goals at L1 level at a rate much above anything May had shown up to then.

And it wasn't just Moore who didn't "give a chance" to May. The lad had been available nearly all of the playoff season under McCann and made 8 starts.

[Campsall rover]

No one apart from Marquis has scored over 20 goals a season for 3 consecutive seasons since Keetley and he was pre 2nd world war.
I don’t think even King Alick did that. If I am wrong I am sure someone will tel me.

The fact is Alfie May never got a sustained run in the team so maybe his potential never came to fruition at Rovers.
Personally he never looked to me like he would be a prolific goal scorer at League 1 level.
His work rate cannot be faulted but he looked as though he had limitations in his game. 
Sometimes players flourish when they move to another Club and that’s what happened to Alfie at Cheltenham Town.
There is a long history of players not achieving at one club but then achieving great things at another club.

The obsession with looking at what might have been with former players doesn’t benefit anyone. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
The past is gone, what’s important is the present and the future.

[Bentley Bullet]

Campsall, your claim that May never got a sustained run in the team so therefore his potential never came to fruition is the whole point of the discussion. The fact that after he left some proper shite was brought in that wasn't fit to lace his boots rubbed salt into the wounds of those of us who saw May flourish while with Rovers, despite the reluctance to give him a decent run.

The argument is that some of us, even with the advantage of hindsight, still refuse to accept that Darren Moore dropped a bollock by releasing him, and dropped another by letting him go for peanuts.

[Campsall rover]

Campsall, your claim that May never got a sustained run in the team so therefore his potential never came to fruition is the whole point of the discussion. The fact that after he left some proper shite was brought in that wasn't fit to lace his boots rubbed salt into the wounds of those of us who saw May flourish while with Rovers, despite the reluctance to give him a decent run.

The argument is that some of us, even with the advantage of hindsight, still refuse to accept that Darren Moore dropped a bollock by releasing him, and dropped another by letting him go for peanuts.

Don’t disagree with you.
Not only did he let Alfie go he released Watters who quite obviously had potential.
Crawley got a million pounds for him 18 months later.
Yes if Alfie had been replaced with better then fair enough but he wasn’t.

But be honest BB could you have envisaged that he would score over 20 goals in a season in League 1

[Bentley Bullet]

Campsall, if May had been given a decent run in the team, in his right position and without the prospect of being made the scapegoat and subbed regularly I believed then, and still believe that he would have scored regularly for Rovers, and 20 goals plus would not have been in the realms of impossibility.

..... And hindsight has proved me right.

[ravenrover]

You're doing it again Dickos. Ignoring facts when making your case.

Within a couple of weeks of selling May, Moore made a permanent signing at centre forward who had, and did score goals at L1 level at a rate much above anything May had shown up to then.

And it wasn't just Moore who didn't "give a chance" to May. The lad had been available nearly all of the playoff season under McCann and made 8 starts.

Forgive me Billy my memory is not what it used to be, who was the experienced striker Moore signed on a permanent?

[Herbert Anchovy]

Anyone who saw anything in Alfie May during his time with us has a better footballing eye than me! I just saw a kid who game 100% but was lacking in quality. I remember one game in particular when he came on as a sub during the second half to rapturous applause from the Rovers fans and then spent 30 minutes chasing shadows and looked so out of his depth that I actually felt sorry for the kid. To be fair, he ran himself into the ground, ( but I could do that in those days!!) but barely got near the ball never mind touched it.

Over time I felt that he was almost trying too hard in some games but I don’t recall any significant improvements in quality.

Full credit to him for what he’s achieved after leaving Rovers though. He’s proved that he’s a decent player at that level and I’m delighted for him.

[Bentley Bullet]

Not everyone has a sharp eye for a good prospect, Herbert, and it's commendable of you to concede that those who saw something in May have a better footballing eye than you.

I agree that May sometimes looked like he was trying too hard to make an impression and that wasn't helped by the fact that he was probably well aware that he was going to be replaced sooner or later in the game.

Regarding his quality, have you watched the videos of his goals higher up in the thread?

[Herbert Anchovy]

Not everyone has a sharp eye for a good prospect, Herbert, and it's commendable of you to concede that those who saw something in May have a better footballing eye than you.

I agree that May sometimes looked like he was trying too hard to make an impression and that wasn't helped by the fact that he was probably well aware that he was going to be replaced sooner or later in the game.

Regarding his quality, have you watched the videos of his goals higher up in the thread?

I have seen the clips BB and there’s some very well taken goals in there. My judgement is based on the games that I saw him play in (admittedly probably not as many games as you or lots of other people on here) and I often saw a player who seemed to be struggling. There could be a variety of reasons for this; lack of talent, poor coaching, lack of clarity from his manager etc… but it’s a fact from what I saw of him. I wasn’t surprised when he left us but I’m delighted that he’s gone in to have a rewarding career.

[Bentley Bullet]

https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/doncaster-rovers-grant-mccann-hails-brilliant-alfie-may-after-fa-cup-demolitiona-against-chorley-44009

[Bentley Bullet]

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-gary-mcsheffrey-hoping-alfie-may-has-an-off-day-on-saturday-3596136

[Goole Rover]

What a strange and totally unnecessary debate. Was Marquis good? Absolutely. Has he been replaced by anyone as good? No, not even anywhere near.

Did Alfie show enough potential to be kept on? Absolutely, especially when the manager who let him go then filled the team with loans.

There's no argument to be had here.

To be honest my initial grumble was that Moore didn’t have a clue, he didn’t recognise Alfie May’s potential my other point was that Marquis was in my opinion overrated, 2 million, Championship player and all that, his performance after leaving Rovers proved this. I haven’t looked at Marquis’s recent appearances or scoring rate but I have been aware of Alfie’s. I’ll state it again “Moore didn’t have a clue”.

[Spud]

You're doing it again Dickos. Ignoring facts when making your case.

Within a couple of weeks of selling May, Moore made a permanent signing at centre forward who had, and did score goals at L1 level at a rate much above anything May had shown up to then.

And it wasn't just Moore who didn't "give a chance" to May. The lad had been available nearly all of the playoff season under McCann and made 8 starts.

Forgive me Billy my memory is not what it used to be, who was the experienced striker Moore signed on a permanent?

Okhenabirie?

[RoversInSpain]

Anyone who saw anything in Alfie May during his time with us has a better footballing eye than me! I just saw a kid who game 100% but was lacking in quality. I remember one game in particular when he came on as a sub during the second half to rapturous applause from the Rovers fans and then spent 30 minutes chasing shadows and looked so out of his depth that I actually felt sorry for the kid. To be fair, he ran himself into the ground, ( but I could do that in those days!!) but barely got near the ball never mind touched it.

Over time I felt that he was almost trying too hard in some games but I don’t recall any significant improvements in quality.

Full credit to him for what he’s achieved after leaving Rovers though. He’s proved that he’s a decent player at that level and I’m delighted for him.

Exactly what I saw HA. I would groan if the lovely Alfie came on. He looked miles off Marquis. He could bag goals against lower teams, but seemed to struggle at Lg1. I remember him chasing balls that bounced over his head and running around enthusiastically.
I think a lot of credit needs to go to the Cheltenham Management and coaching team which clearly were a million miles better than ours at the time he was let go.
Those who predicted he would go on to achieve what he has should get into scouting or do the lottery and I take my hat off to you.
I’m chuffed for him though, I remember at Bristol Rovers he was warming up in front of the travelling Rovers fans down the side and he needed a pee so he hopped over the side wall and nipped into the away supporter’s toilet on the back of the terrace, can just see Kane doing that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Campsall, your claim that May never got a sustained run in the team so therefore his potential never came to fruition is the whole point of the discussion. The fact that after he left some proper shite was brought in that wasn't fit to lace his boots rubbed salt into the wounds of those of us who saw May flourish while with Rovers, despite the reluctance to give him a decent run.

The argument is that some of us, even with the advantage of hindsight, still refuse to accept that Darren Moore dropped a bollock by releasing him, and dropped another by letting him go for peanuts.

BB.

The FACT is that immediately after he left, we had one of the most productive 12 months in our history.

You don't like that fact but it is a very important one.

[ravenrover]

Is it Okhenabirie you were referring to Billy?

[Avsuptem]

If I am not mistaken JM's scoring.record was nothing special until he came to us. So we should not be too shocked by history repeating itself when 1 of our players moves on. Ferguson brought Alfie in from non league where he was prolific, it was a bit of a punt at the time.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST. So you're saying Rovers went on a good run because May left, and they wouldn't have done had May stayed?

It is also a fact that In the 13 remaining games after May left before Covid finished the season, The team achieved just one more point than they did in the 13 games played before May left.

Oh, and May scored more goals for Rovers that season than his 'far more prolific' replacement did!

[BillyStubbsTears]

BST. So you're saying Rovers went on a good run because May left, and they wouldn't have done had May stayed?

It is also a fact that In the 13 remaining games after May left before Covid finished the season, The team achieved just one more point than they did in the 13 games played before May left.

Oh, and May scored more goals for Rovers that season than his 'far more prolific' replacement did!

I see you're struggling with facts as ever BB.

1) We played 18 league games that season after May left.

2) In those 18 games we won 30 points (1.67 PPG). In the 15 games May had participated in that season, we won 24 points (1.60 PPG).

3) May scored 3 goals for us that season, in 23 appearances. 1 goal in the league. 2 in the Paint Pot Trophy. Okenabirhie scored 2 league goals in 5 appearances.

And no, I'm not saying we went on one of our best ever runs of 12 months form BECAUSE May left. That would be stupidly simplistic. I'm saying that May leaving did not prevent us from going on one of the best ever runs in our history. Because, at the time, he simply wasn't that much of a loss.

The lad had clearly come on in leaps and bounds since and I'm chuffed for him.