Israel

[SydneyRover]

Just what we're hamas thinking ?
We're they trying to provoke a wider war ?
Surely they knew it was suicide?

You could say that about either side of the wider problem at almost any time since 1948

List of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel

List of United Nations resolutions concerning Palestine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Palestine

[DRFC_AjA]

Just what we're hamas thinking ?
We're they trying to provoke a wider war ?
Surely they knew it was suicide?

Why?....Sabotage? Weren't Israel and UAE (I think?) getting friendly and thus the start of potentially more harmony in the region and amongst the religions

Surely they knew it was suicide?....when you use your own women and kids as shields I don't think you care too much

"Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate their enemies"

[SydneyRover]

An Oz ABC team were in the West Bank recently, skip through the opener as most will have seen it, you probably need a VPN or see it on youtube.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-13/before-the-war:/102973604

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7fG0FeVc1o

[glosterred]

A bit of confusion in some posts about what is considered a war crime, so here is the relevant section:
https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FF8OlacLXEAAPdDK.jpg

So the Israeli response IS a war crime, as was the Hamas murders at the weekend.
End of, despite the bollox of various politicians.

Further to what is and isn’t a war crime have a read of the thread attached

https://twitter.com/MarkGoldfeder/status/1712466270397030722

[albie]

Gloster,

What has the twitter thread got to do with the definition I posted?
Sorry, but I don't understand the relevance to the definition given.

What is the key point?

[albie]

1.1 million Palestinians have been ordered by Israel to leave Northern Gaza, an area of nearly 500 square kilometres.
They have literally nowhere to go.

Israel is going to carpet bomb that land, before bulldozers & tanks are sent it to clear the whole area.
Any refugees that manage to avoid the attack will have nothing left...any who cross the borders will not be allowed back.

This is what the political consensus is giving a green light to....Biden, the EU, Sunak, Starmer and the rest of the RedBlue Uniparty...all complicit.

[DRFC_AjA]

1.1 million Palestinians have been ordered by Israel to leave Northern Gaza, an area of nearly 500 square kilometres.
They have literally nowhere to go.

Israel is going to carpet bomb that land, before bulldozers & tanks are sent it to clear the whole area.
Any refugees that manage to avoid the attack will have nothing left...any who cross the borders will not be allowed back.

This is what the political consensus is giving a green light to....Biden, the EU, Sunak, Starmer and the rest of the RedBlue Uniparty...all complicit.

and the next generation of Palestinians grow up hating the Israelis - and the next generation of Israelis grow up hating the Palestinians. Its a horrible situation that sadly seems like it will never end

[glosterred]

Gloster,

What has the twitter thread got to do with the definition I posted?
Sorry, but I don't understand the relevance to the definition given.

What is the key point?

There is more to what is and isn’t a war crime than the snippet that you posted. There is: distinction, military necessity, and proportionality. Collective punishment is a war crime but you have to decide whether that punishment is covered by military necessity and proportionality. And if it is it isn’t a war crime

[albie]

Yes, gloster...but none of those apply here do they?

Many of those affected by the response from Israel are nothing to do with the atrocity by Hamas.
They are just ordinary Palestinian families caught in the crossfire, not agents of Hamas.

There is clearly no military necessity to bomb and clear all Palestinians in Gaza.
It is a massively disproportionate response that will cause untold suffering.

[glosterred]

Yes, gloster...but none of those apply here do they?

Many of those affected by the response from Israel are nothing to do with the atrocity by Hamas.
They are just ordinary Palestinian families caught in the crossfire, not agents of Hamas.

There is clearly no military necessity to bomb and clear all Palestinians in Gaza.
It is a massively disproportionate response that will cause untold suffering.

Unfortunately civilians getting caught in the cross fire is not necessarily a war crime. If Hamas doesn’t let civilians leave the area then it’s their war crime not Israel’s. There may be a military necessity to place where the bomb fell, you and I don’t know that. All deaths are sad, military and civilian but not all deaths are war crimes

[Bristol Red Rover]

I see King Charles has commented about hamas murdering civilians in Israel, no mention of the innocent people killed in Gaza.

There is a fundamentall difference, recognised in international law between killing civilians deliberately and as a primary aim, and killing civilians as a consequence of attacks on genuine military targets.

The first is a war crime. The second, however brutal and harrowing, is not.

None of that is to give a free pass to Israel, but there IS a difference.

I have to say though, the cutting off of electricity, food and medical supplies will, if not quickly reversed, become a war crime.

Israeli soldiers have killed civilian plenty of times intentionally. The bombing of Gaza is not targeting, it is indiscriminate. It is a war crime with each explosion.

But then so much about Israel is illegal, contravenes international treaties, and conventions.

All the support given is ignoring this. Why?

[wilts rover]

'Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas... This is part of our strategy'.

Netanyahu at a meeting of the Likud party Knesset members in March 2019.

Read that again and let the implications sink in.

https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1711329340804186619

[albie]

People are trying to leave gloster, but the logistics of evacuating these numbers in 24 hours, including disabled and hospitalised are immense.

Israel knows this, but chooses to ignore the implications, and continues to bomb.
In the light of this, there is no doubt a war crime is being committed with more to come.

Forcible transfer is recognised as a war crime itself, and there is no other way to describe the exodus.

A good take here from former Guardian journo David Hearst on DDN;
https://youtu.be/M15CV8jOIYQ

[ncRover]

I’m not sure where these people are expected to go.

Egypt has shut the Gaza border. I’m guessing this is because they don’t want any Hamas infiltration after the Sinai Insurgency.

*But also if the Gazans leave would Israel let them back?

[GazLaz]

Palestinians have rejected a number of offers of a two state deal, they have always been turned down by the Palestinians
Zionist jews paid for some and were given an area of dessert by the British, they have turned it into an oasis!  They’ve been constantly attacked for it.
Israel donated modern greenhouses worth millions capable of growing any food - the Palestinians destroyed them.
The current Gaza blockade might only be lifted when the illegally taken hostages are safely returned to Israel.

It is not a "one side good: one side bad" issue. Whilever it is approached in that way, there is zero hope for peace.

Exactly this. If you think one side is in the right and one in the wrong you are miles away from the truth.

[SydneyRover]

Palestinians have rejected a number of offers of a two state deal, they have always been turned down by the Palestinians
Zionist jews paid for some and were given an area of dessert by the British, they have turned it into an oasis!  They’ve been constantly attacked for it.
Israel donated modern greenhouses worth millions capable of growing any food - the Palestinians destroyed them.
The current Gaza blockade might only be lifted when the illegally taken hostages are safely returned to Israel.

It is not a "one side good: one side bad" issue. Whilever it is approached in that way, there is zero hope for peace.

Exactly this. If you think one side is in the right and one in the wrong you are miles away from the truth.

While it is true that the blame game will have to be put aside for a solution to be found, each side do tend to outdo each other on occasion. Land taken during conflict does not legitimise it. Gaza itself is an abomination and UN resolutions are broken every day with West Bank settlements.

[drfchound]

A friend of mine suggested today that the Israelis will try to set up a kind of no man’s land in the area they are going to push into which is why they are clearing the civilians out of it.

[wilts rover]

A friend of mine suggested today that the Israelis will try to set up a kind of no man’s land in the area they are going to push into which is why they are clearing the civilians out of it.

That's not the way Israel works. When they occupy land - they occupy it.

[ncRover]

A friend of mine suggested today that the Israelis will try to set up a kind of no man’s land in the area they are going to push into which is why they are clearing the civilians out of it.

That's not the way Israel works. When they occupy land - they occupy it.

Israel gave the Sinai peninsula back to Egypt in the early 80s after the Six Day War.

The Sinai peninsula has more than double the land surface area of modern day Israel.

[wilts rover]

A friend of mine suggested today that the Israelis will try to set up a kind of no man’s land in the area they are going to push into which is why they are clearing the civilians out of it.

That's not the way Israel works. When they occupy land - they occupy it.

Israel gave the Sinai peninsula back to Egypt in the early 80s after the Six Day War.

The Sinai peninsula has more than double the land surface area of modern day Israel.

OK

[DonnyOsmond]

A friend of mine suggested today that the Israelis will try to set up a kind of no man’s land in the area they are going to push into which is why they are clearing the civilians out of it.

That's not the way Israel works. When they occupy land - they occupy it.

Israel gave the Sinai peninsula back to Egypt in the early 80s after the Six Day War.

The Sinai peninsula has more than double the land surface area of modern day Israel.

OK

Didn't realise how bad the West Bank was. The West are near enough encouraging genocide.

[BillyStubbsTears]

A friend of mine suggested today that the Israelis will try to set up a kind of no man’s land in the area they are going to push into which is why they are clearing the civilians out of it.

That's not the way Israel works. When they occupy land - they occupy it.

Israel gave the Sinai peninsula back to Egypt in the early 80s after the Six Day War.

The Sinai peninsula has more than double the land surface area of modern day Israel.

OK

There's a missing image from 1973-2008.

[ncRover]

I didn’t say anything factually incorrect wilts.

If the Palestinians come out on the losing side after not accepting peace, does it make their cause any more noble than Israel’s simply because of losing?

[Sprotyrover]

The authorities didn’t complain in the least when earlier this year they laid miles of brand new water pipes to alleviate the water shortage and Hamas dug up the lot to make their Rockets, and not a word said when they built hundreds of launching rails on top of several hundred high rise buildings, not a word said
https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1712633164869370256?s=61

[SydneyRover]

Independent sources

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

https://www.icc-cpi.int/palestine

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/israeloccupied-palestinian-territory-un-experts-deplore-attacks-civilians

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/commission-inquiry-collecting-evidence-war-crimes-committed-all-sides-israel#:~:text=GENEVA%20(10%20October%202023)%20%E2%80%93,UN%20Independent%20International%20Commission%20of

[ncRover]

See this Corbyn post here sums the attitude of the anti-Israel crowd:

https://x.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1713211059962609981?s=46

“Today, we gathered in our thousands to mourn the loss of innocent lives, Israeli and Palestinian.”

Yet he’s waited a week for the retaliation (which I believe to be out of proportion yes) and there isn’t a single Israel flag in that crowd. Rather than just come out and condemn the unspeakably evil Hamas acts.

When figures such as him rightfully raise the issue of the rights of Palestinians, why is there never any condemnation of the role of Hamas in that erosion? I can’t find any evidence of him ever even criticising Hamas. But if Starmer does it he’s an evil “right-wing Zionist”?!

Why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas launched missiles from populated civilian areas? Giving Israel no choice but to target that back.

https://x.com/babaktaghvaee1/status/1712866902454706516?s=46

Why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas spend humanitarian aid on terrorism rather than infrastructure?

Or as Sproty raised - why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas rip up water pipes and use them to build missiles?

Or why Egypt also blockades the Gaza strip?

Why is the more ancient history of the region ignored? See here:

https://x.com/tomaspueyo/status/1712518904616989121?s=46

[Bristol Red Rover]

See this Corbyn post here sums the attitude of the anti-Israel crowd:

https://x.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1713211059962609981?s=46

“Today, we gathered in our thousands to mourn the loss of innocent lives, Israeli and Palestinian.”

Yet he’s waited a week for the retaliation (which I believe to be out of proportion yes) and there isn’t a single Israel flag in that crowd. Rather than just come out and condemn the unspeakably evil Hamas acts.

When figures such as him rightfully raise the issue of the rights of Palestinians, why is there never any condemnation of the role of Hamas in that erosion? I can’t find any evidence of him ever even criticising Hamas. But if Starmer does it he’s an evil “right-wing Zionist”?!

Why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas launched missiles from populated civilian areas? Giving Israel no choice but to target that back.

https://x.com/babaktaghvaee1/status/1712866902454706516?s=46

Why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas spend humanitarian aid on terrorism rather than infrastructure?

Or as Sproty raised - why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas rip up water pipes and use them to build missiles?

Or why Egypt also blockades the Gaza strip?

Why is the more ancient history of the region ignored? See here:

https://x.com/tomaspueyo/status/1712518904616989121?s=46

Let's just stick with the Starmer bit. He is a right wing Zionist, there's nothing that changes that. Whether he speaks against Hamas or just sits counting the money from his Zionist sponsors, or bans the accurate use of the word apartheid in relation to Israel at his conference. Or promotes and dictates the concept that antizionism, or even a negative comment on the state of Israel, equates with antisemitism.

[DonnyOsmond]

See this Corbyn post here sums the attitude of the anti-Israel crowd:

https://x.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1713211059962609981?s=46

“Today, we gathered in our thousands to mourn the loss of innocent lives, Israeli and Palestinian.”

Yet he’s waited a week for the retaliation (which I believe to be out of proportion yes) and there isn’t a single Israel flag in that crowd. Rather than just come out and condemn the unspeakably evil Hamas acts.

When figures such as him rightfully raise the issue of the rights of Palestinians, why is there never any condemnation of the role of Hamas in that erosion? I can’t find any evidence of him ever even criticising Hamas. But if Starmer does it he’s an evil “right-wing Zionist”?!

Why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas launched missiles from populated civilian areas? Giving Israel no choice but to target that back.

https://x.com/babaktaghvaee1/status/1712866902454706516?s=46

Why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas spend humanitarian aid on terrorism rather than infrastructure?

Or as Sproty raised - why isn’t the question asked as to why Hamas rip up water pipes and use them to build missiles?

Or why Egypt also blockades the Gaza strip?

Why is the more ancient history of the region ignored? See here:

https://x.com/tomaspueyo/status/1712518904616989121?s=46

He criticised attacks from both sides. He's against murder of innocent civilians and war crimes, how is that stance the morally wrong one?

[BillyStubbsTears]

DO

It's the precise wording.

When Israel commits an atrocity, he rightly condemns it explicitly as an atrocity by Israel.

When Hamas commits an atrocity, he condemns violence on all sides.

It's an age-old tactic among fellow travellers. You know you can't get away without saying something when your side sins, but you water it down by referring to the sin in the abstract, not drawing attention to the explicit example.

It's easy to see, if you're prepared to look.

[Bristol Red Rover]

DO

It's the precise wording.

When Israel commits an atrocity, he rightly condemns it explicitly as an atrocity by Israel.

When Hamas commits an atrocity, he condemns violence on all sides.

It's an age-old tactic among fellow travellers. You know you can't get away without saying something when your side sins, but you water it down by referring to the sin in the abstract, not drawing attention to the explicit example.

It's easy to see, if you're prepared to look.

Which, is better form than Starmer, who just backs Israel, who in turn back him.