Israel

[MachoMadness]

In a difficult situation with thousands dead, I'm glad we can all come together and identify the real villain: the jam grandad.

[ncRover]

Didn’t the blast occur in the car park? I’ve seen images today of the hospital still standing. How did Hamas know that 500 people had died so quick?

RIP to the innocent victims but we need our mainstream media to be reporting accurate information.

The fog of war has truly descended.

[ncRover]

On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example.  Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.

What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn.  24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....

Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.

Easy to find.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555

And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.

Did you see this Billy?

Chris Williamson MP - “Israel has forfeited any right to exist”

https://x.com/derbychrisw/status/1714363673303556504?s=46

[BillyStubbsTears]

Not good enough MM

You were ranting last night about this event. It's REALLY important that honest people step up and hold their hands up when they call it wrong. This, as you said yourself last night, will radicalise millions. Because it will go down in legend as a deliberate attack by Israel, when the overwhelming evidence is now suggesting it wasn't.

It's not good enough to ignore the responsibility that we all have to truth.

[BillyStubbsTears]

On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example.  Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.

What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn.  24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....

Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.

Easy to find.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555

And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.

Did you see this Billy?

Chris Williamson MP - “Israel has forfeited any right to exist”

https://x.com/derbychrisw/status/1714363673303556504?s=46

Chris Williamson is a Kitson. Precisely the cancer that Labour had to excise.

[DonnyOsmond]

On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example.  Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.

What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn.  24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....

Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.

Easy to find.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555

And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.

Like I said though, nothing anti-semitic about that.

[ncRover]

In a difficult situation with thousands dead, I'm glad we can all come together and identify the real villain: the jam grandad.

He’s highly influential on this topic.

10.2m views on that tweet and former Labour leader so yes he should be scrutinised.

[ncRover]

On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example.  Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.

What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn.  24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....

Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.

Easy to find.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555

And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.

Like I said though, nothing anti-semitic about that.

What about the Williamson one then?

[ncRover]

Not good enough MM

You were ranting last night about this event. It's REALLY important that honest people step up and hold their hands up when they call it wrong. This, as you said yourself last night, will radicalise millions. Because it will go down in legend as a deliberate attack by Israel, when the overwhelming evidence is now suggesting it wasn't.

It's not good enough to ignore the responsibility that we all have to truth.

People prefer to make the truth malleable to their beliefs rather than their beliefs malleable to the truth.

[BillyStubbsTears]

On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example.  Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.

What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn.  24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....

Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.

Easy to find.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555

And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.

Like I said though, nothing anti-semitic about that.

Christ alive. He's propagating what is increasingly looking like an outright lie which is being used around the world by anti-Semites. If you don't see the problem here...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Not good enough MM

You were ranting last night about this event. It's REALLY important that honest people step up and hold their hands up when they call it wrong. This, as you said yourself last night, will radicalise millions. Because it will go down in legend as a deliberate attack by Israel, when the overwhelming evidence is now suggesting it wasn't.

It's not good enough to ignore the responsibility that we all have to truth.

People prefer to make the truth malleable to their beliefs rather than their beliefs malleable to the truth.

NC. I've said for years that the biggest threat by far to humanity is the erosion of the idea of Objective Truth.

Bigger than climate change. Bigger than the threat of war or AI.

We all have a duty to understand and acknowledge when the facts aren't what we would prefer them to be.

[DonnyOsmond]

On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example.  Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.

What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn.  24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....

Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.

Easy to find.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555

And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.

Like I said though, nothing anti-semitic about that.

Christ alive. He's propagating what is increasingly looking like an outright lie which is being used around the world by anti-Semites. If you don't see the problem here...

It was used by the MSM at the time he posted it, seems like you have an axe to grind. Read that exact post, theres nothing anti-semitic about it, if you're able to read between lines and find it then that says more about you than anything.

[Bristol Red Rover]

It is always the case that when a humanitarian outrage like the hospital bombing takes place, both sides look to blame the other.
Israel has form here, and I would expect Hamas to do the same.....muddy the waters!

The background is what is the nature of terrorism, and understand that states practice it as well as resistance militants.
https://youtu.be/qMpMDzMOjQ0

It is normalised when it is a day to day fact of occupation, part of a long term plan for ethnic cleansing.
Israel wants to squeeze the Gaza enclave down to nothing, and colonise the land with armed settlers.

Really not good enough Albie.

The evidence is mounting that the horrific loss of life in the hospital inferno was not caused by an Israeli high explosive attack.

It is very important that, if a tragedy as horrendous as this is used by ANY side for sectional advantage, people of good faith call it out. It's simply not acceptable to shrug your shoulders and mumble about "muddying the waters".

Missing the point. Israel has stole and murdered far far more than any Palestinian resistance. Weirdly,  the Zionists were not wanted by the people whose homes they stole, whose children they murdered. If you take the hospital incident away, there are still so many crimes of Israel just in this period. Many more to come.

[Bristol Red Rover]

On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example.  Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.

What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn.  24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....

Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.

Easy to find.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555

And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.

Like I said though, nothing anti-semitic about that.

Christ alive. He's propagating what is increasingly looking like an outright lie which is being used around the world by anti-Semites. If you don't see the problem here...

Anti Zionists perhaps. By conflating truth BST, you become the problem. Or maybe you can evidence your statement?

[DonnyOsmond]

On the flip side it's understandable to a degree not to trust Israel, they aren't wholly truthful and even if as looks likely they didn't commit this, they still have many others and should act with more restraint and turn the f**king water on for example.  Russia do that it's a war crime so why not Israel.

What is clear is just how this adds to the antisemitism claims against Jeremy Corbyn.  24 hours later he hasn't posted any update to his outrage last night, speaks volumes and many wanted him as PM....

Not seen what the latter is about but don't mistake comments against Israel being against Judaism. It's happened a lot in the last couple of weeks.

Easy to find.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1714345013734166555

And people wonder why Labour was unelectable under this man.

Like I said though, nothing anti-semitic about that.

Christ alive. He's propagating what is increasingly looking like an outright lie which is being used around the world by anti-Semites. If you don't see the problem here...

Anti Zionists perhaps. By conflating truth BST, you become the problem. Or maybe you can evidence your statement?

It's the equivalent of criticising India/Modi's government and being called anti-Hindu. Exquisite mental gymnastics.

[MachoMadness]

Not good enough MM

You were ranting last night about this event. It's REALLY important that honest people step up and hold their hands up when they call it wrong. This, as you said yourself last night, will radicalise millions. Because it will go down in legend as a deliberate attack by Israel, when the overwhelming evidence is now suggesting it wasn't.

It's not good enough to ignore the responsibility that we all have to truth.

We don't know it's wrong. No one does. Least of all those OSINT accounts posting engagement bait on Elon Musk's Twitter, for crying out loud! There's a reason no reputable news outlets are calling this yet.

There is credible evidence that points to both sides. Footage of rockets flying from Gaza just before the explosion. Footage from another angle that shows what appears to be a flare from a fighter jet just before the barrage of rockets. We won't know until there's an official independent investigation. If there is one.

All that we can actually confirm is that the IDF tweeted out a video that they claimed was a Hamas rocket failing, before deleting it. Then they released a call between members of 'Hamas' that channel 4 is pretty confidently saying is fake. What does any of that mean?

You seem to have made your mind up though. Interesting when truth has to be objective and when it doesn't.

[albie]

BST,

The hospital explosion could have been a drone strike, rather than large air ordinance.

Israel are targeting civilians and the services they depend on.
Residential buildings, journalists, medical facilities and convoys of displaced people.
The UN motion on a ceasefire has been vetoed by Biden.

25 hospitals and medical facilities were given notice to vacate by Israel, an instruction that they cannot comply with.
The strike yesterday was a follow up to the warning strike last Saturday, which injured 4.

Israel denied responsibility for the murder of the Palestinian journalist last year, creating doubt by muddying the waters has always been their strategy. A false propaganda storm is to be expected.

In that context, unproven assertions on liability are not the point.
We may or may not have proof longer term, but the process of territorial expansion continues in Gaza and the West Bank.

For all the reasons given, and the known history of ethnic cleansing of Palestine since 1948, Israel is a rogue state routinely
committing humanitarian abuses and war crimes on an industrial scale.

That cannot be denied, can it?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Not good enough MM

You were ranting last night about this event. It's REALLY important that honest people step up and hold their hands up when they call it wrong. This, as you said yourself last night, will radicalise millions. Because it will go down in legend as a deliberate attack by Israel, when the overwhelming evidence is now suggesting it wasn't.

It's not good enough to ignore the responsibility that we all have to truth.

We don't know it's wrong. No one does. Least of all those OSINT accounts posting engagement bait on Elon Musk's Twitter, for crying out loud! There's a reason no reputable news outlets are calling this yet.

There is credible evidence that points to both sides. Footage of rockets flying from Gaza just before the explosion. Footage from another angle that shows what appears to be a flare from a fighter jet just before the barrage of rockets. We won't know until there's an official independent investigation. If there is one.

All that we can actually confirm is that the IDF tweeted out a video that they claimed was a Hamas rocket failing, before deleting it. Then they released a call between members of 'Hamas' that channel 4 is pretty confidently saying is fake. What does any of that mean?

You seem to have made your mind up though. Interesting when truth has to be objective and when it doesn't.

MM

Yet Corbyn went online within a couple of hours of the incident and screamed that it was an attack by Israel. He's had ample opportunity to withdraw that unqualified assertion and hasn't done.

Do I really need to point out the problem with that approach?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BST,

The hospital explosion could have been a drone strike, rather than large air ordinance.

Israel are targeting civilians and the services they depend on.
Residential buildings, journalists, medical facilities and convoys of displaced people.
The UN motion on a ceasefire has been vetoed by Biden.

25 hospitals and medical facilities were given notice to vacate by Israel, an instruction that they cannot comply with.
The strike yesterday was a follow up to the warning strike last Saturday, which injured 4.

Israel denied responsibility for the murder of the Palestinian journalist last year, creating doubt by muddying the waters has always been their strategy. A false propaganda storm is to be expected.

In that context, unproven assertions on liability are not the point.
We may or may not have proof longer term, but the process of territorial expansion continues in Gaza and the West Bank.

For all the reasons given, and the known history of ethnic cleansing of Palestine since 1948, Israel is a rogue state routinely
committing humanitarian abuses and war crimes on an industrial scale.

That cannot be denied, can it?

Do you want to run by me how a drone carries enough explosive to cause the size of fireball that was shown in videos of the event, and to cause fires over several thousand square metres?

[albie]

No Billy, you do not have the expertise.

A drone payload can cause an incendiary chain reaction if it attacks a combustible source on the ground, either fuel or munitions.

There is no definitive evidence to hand, and it is nothing to do with the substantive point I made about war crimes.

Yes or no to the question?

[BillyStubbsTears]

No Billy, you do not have the expertise.

A drone payload can cause an incendiary chain reaction if it attacks a combustible source on the ground, either fuel or munitions.

But how odd would it be for a large fuel or munitions store to be kept in the open air car park of a hospital? And if it was a large fuel container, for there to be no evidence of it at all after the event? Or if it was munitions, for there to be no evidence of them reacting and causing individual secondary explosions on the video of the event?

My point is that at best, at very best there is doubt over whether this was an Israeli attack. And yet some people are steadfastly refusing to withdraw their immediate response that it unquestionably was.

Do you really not see the issue there?

[BobG]

This is like looking for angels dancing on the heads of pins. A popular pastime once.

Just like every other war since wars began, one side blames the other. The questions that really matter are how can it be stopped, and by whom?

And, btw, I despise one side and I loathe the other.

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bob.

I couldn't agree more that the real question is how to stop the bloodshed.

I disagree that issues like this don't matter though.

MM quite correctly pointed out how this sort of issue radicalises the next generation. Which is precisely why the truth of what happened is so important. If major figures insist that it was a war crime by one side, when the evidence is at best uncertain, they are choosing to radicalise people and that plays a part in ensuring the violence continues down the ages.

That horse has bolted now. Opinions are fixed.

I'll guarantee that in 50 years time there will be people using the "fact" that Israel deliberately targeted 500 civilians in a hospital as justification for their hatred of Israel.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Look for example at how some of the Arab leaders cancelled meetings with Biden citing the "Israeli attack" on the hospital. That doesn't help find a way out of the current bloodbath.

[albie]

Bob G is right to point out that an exit strategy is needed to this humanitarian tragedy.
Trouble is, those who could make this more likely are fanning the fire.

Decent coverage of the claims and counterclaims on Ch4 News about the hospital (one of many which have been attacked);
https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation

An interesting thread from Labour MP Andy McDonald on social media:
https://nitter.net/AndyMcDonaldMP/status/1714575739918365131#m

Are you ready to explain your answer to the important question I put in post 286, BST?
A yes speaks loud enough, a no needs a bit more explanation....your workings!

[SydneyRover]

Bob G is right to point out that an exit strategy is needed to this humanitarian tragedy.
Trouble is, those who could make this more likely are fanning the fire.

Decent coverage of the claims and counterclaims on Ch4 News about the hospital (one of many which have been attacked);
https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation

An interesting thread from Labour MP Andy McDonald on social media:
https://nitter.net/AndyMcDonaldMP/status/1714575739918365131#m

Are you ready to explain your answer to the important question I put in post 286, BST?
A yes speaks loud enough, a no needs a bit more explanation....your workings!

Lot of unsupported emotive opinion in the links Albie, the fact that we have all been there, the difference being that some retract and or apologise.

There are some that have accused corbyn of being a terrorist (by association) and there are others that have tenuously tried to link Starmer to savile or breaking covid rules and most have not retracted nor apologised so I reckon that those trying to claim to be honest brokers in all this should maybe think about what they post.

[BobG]

I agree, absolutely, with the point about perceived v 'real' truth in post 292 BST. It is transcendentally vital. My thought, when I wrote about angels and pins, was that entrenched positions on this thread seem to me to be completely vacuous in the absence of almost any concrete data. Just like those who argued in favour of the angels dancing...
 
And that, btw, is why I value so highly your consistent reviewing of data that is certain, the conclusions that can legitimately be drawn from it and the emotional, often agenda driven, unsubstantiated waffle from both sides. As a seeker after truth I reckon you are incomparable on this forum.

BobG

[SydneyRover]

''Identifying Possible Crater from Gaza Hospital Blast''

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/18/identifying-possible-crater-from-gaza-hospital-blast/

[ncRover]

ncrover,

The BBC have to follow broadcasting guidelines which avoid this kind of misrepresentation.
They have failed to do so.

Your X links seem only accessible to those with an account.
Perhaps quote the text you are referring to.

I know Albie I’m just saying they have form for it.

You must have been equally annoyed at the bbc reporter who pretty much said “this can only have been an Israeli rocket” straight after the blast if you’re interested in the truth?

[SydneyRover]

I don't trust either side nor the US to come up with the truth surrounding this latest atrocity, independence is vital.

''UN demands investigation into hospital attack in Gaza
'It is essential that there could be some form of investigation into this,' says UN spokesman''

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/un-demands-investigation-into-hospital-attack-in-gaza/3025413#:~:text=When%20asked%20by%20Anadolu%20whether,done%20by%20way%20of%20investigation.%22