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Quote from: Ldr on March 16, 2024, 11:18:17 pmQuote from: MachoMadness on March 16, 2024, 10:33:31 pmI'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.I call bullshit And, as usual, you are wrong. Oh, and it's more than 1 Palestinian too.... https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/israeli-tanks-deliberately-ran-over-palestinians-alive-report-says-17220843 and if you don't trust EuroMed then how about Reuters? https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/camera-footage-shows-israeli-vehicles-driving-over-palestinian-killed-army-raid-2024-01-10/
Quote from: MachoMadness on March 16, 2024, 10:33:31 pmI'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.I call bullshit
I'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.
Quote from: Not Now Kato on March 18, 2024, 04:51:34 pmQuote from: Ldr on March 16, 2024, 11:18:17 pmQuote from: MachoMadness on March 16, 2024, 10:33:31 pmI'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.I call bullshit And, as usual, you are wrong. Oh, and it's more than 1 Palestinian too.... https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/israeli-tanks-deliberately-ran-over-palestinians-alive-report-says-17220843 and if you don't trust EuroMed then how about Reuters? https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/camera-footage-shows-israeli-vehicles-driving-over-palestinian-killed-army-raid-2024-01-10/Read what MM put then what the Reuters report says……
Quote from: Not Now Kato on March 18, 2024, 04:51:34 pmQuote from: Ldr on March 16, 2024, 11:18:17 pmQuote from: MachoMadness on March 16, 2024, 10:33:31 pmI'm not f**king searching for it, I didn't want to see that shit in the first place. It's out there if you're desperate to see it.I call bullshit And, as usual, you are wrong. Oh, and it's more than 1 Palestinian too.... https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/israeli-tanks-deliberately-ran-over-palestinians-alive-report-says-17220843 and if you don't trust EuroMed then how about Reuters? https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/camera-footage-shows-israeli-vehicles-driving-over-palestinian-killed-army-raid-2024-01-10/So we have the first Hysteria offering from a Pro Palestinian sourceIsraeli tanks "deliberately" ran over Palestinians alive on Sunday, Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor has said in a statement.The Geneva-based organisation described these crimes on Monday as "part of Israel’s genocide against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip."And then we have the Reuters account which is totally different, Israeli Forces clash with extremists and three who were armed with Fit are killed outside a building as the fire fight intensifies an Israel Armoured vehicle approaches the building where the Israeli Soldiers are, to cover their extraction and runs over the body of an already dead Terrorist!Nothing to see hear just another hysterical post from a Wet Lettuce!
2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.
Quote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?
Quote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 09:27:56 pmQuote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88]
Quote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 09:39:14 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 09:27:56 pmQuote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88] Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 09:27:56 pmQuote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88]
Quote from: Not Now Kato on March 18, 2024, 10:56:52 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 09:39:14 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 09:27:56 pmQuote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88] Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
Quote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 11:03:54 pmQuote from: Not Now Kato on March 18, 2024, 10:56:52 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 09:39:14 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 09:27:56 pmQuote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88] Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict Thank you for the link. Pity you either didn't read it in full or you quoted selectively from it. Here's just some of the bits you missed.... Use by Israeli forcesSee also: Israeli war crimesThe Israeli Defense Forces have been accused of using Palestinians as human shields. Examples of this include: IDF soldiers putting Palestinian civilians in front of them or otherwise putting civilians in the line of fire;[6] forcing Palestinians to remove suspicious objects (possible explosives);[6] sending Palestinians to try and persuade militants to surrender themselves (so-called "neighbor procedure").[6]1948–1967During the 1956–1957 occupation of Gaza Strip by Israel (as part of the Suez crisis), Israeli forces would search homes of suspected Palestinian fedayeen for weapons, caches or concealed fighters. Because these homes could have booby traps or snipers waiting for Israeli soldiers, they would use Palestinian children as human shields.[27]Second IntifadaIsraeli officials reported that the Israel Defense Forces made use of the "human shield" procedure on 1,200 occasions during the Second Intifada (2000–2005).[28] An example of this was chaining a 12-year old Palestinian boy to an Israeli armored vehicle.[28] Israeli officials stated that this procedure killed "only" one Palestinian human shield.[29]According to human rights groups Amnesty International[30] and Human Rights Watch,[31] the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the Second Intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[32][33] Al Mezan reported the systematic use of human shields during the invasion of Beit Hanoun in 2004.[34] Human shields were also employed by Israeli soldiers to subdue a stone-throwing protest in Hebron in 2003.[35]Amnesty gave the following example: on April 5, 2002, an IDF officer took a Palestinian man from his house and asked him to come with them. When the Palestinian man, whose children were around him, repeatedly refused, the IDF officer said "I would prefer not to use force". The IDF officer then grabbed the Palestinian man by the collar and forced him to walk in front of the IDF soldiers. The IDF officer crouched behind the Palestinian man and started firing. Over the course of several hours, IDF soldiers had him repeatedly stand in front of them as they fired at suspected Palestinian militants. During this time the Palestinian man asked to be released but the IDF refused. Finally during one incident the Palestinian man received a bullet on his leg and was finally released by the IDF.[36]In 2002 the Supreme Court of Israel issued a temporary injunction banning the practice in the wake of the death of 19-year-old Nidal Abu Mohsen, who was shot dead when he was forced by the IDF to knock on the door of his neighbor, Hamas militant Nasser Jarrar, in the West Bank village of Tubas and inform him of the Israeli army's demands that he surrender.[28][37][38]In 2004, a 13-year-old boy, Muhammed Badwan, was photographed tied to an Israeli police vehicle in the West Bank village of Biddu being used as a shield to deter stone-throwing protesters.[28][39] Rabbi Arik Ascherman was placed under arrest after he tried to intervene.[37]In 2005, Israel's High Court of Justice banned the practice,[29][40] with the Israeli Defense Ministry appealing the decision.[29][41] While acknowledging and defending the "use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations", a practice known in Israel by the "neighbor procedure",[35] the IDF denied reports of "using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces", saying it had already forbidden this practice.[40]In 2006, however, initial investigations by B'Tselem indicated that the IDF might have used civilians as human shields in 2006 Beit Hanun.[42]In February 2007, the footage was released of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian, whom video showed serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers, getting inside apartments suspected to belong to Palestinian militants ahead of the soldiers.[43][44] A 15-year-old cousin of Amira and an 11-year-old girl in the West Bank independently told B'Tselem in February 2007 that Israeli soldiers forced each of them in separate incidents to open the door of a neighboring apartment belonging to a suspected militant, get inside ahead of them, and open doors and windows.[45]The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident involving Amira.[43] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank operation.[46] In April 2007, CBS News reported that, according to human rights groups, the IDF did not stop the use of human shields, but the incidence was dropping.[32][43]"Neighbor procedure"See also: Criticism of Israel § Neighbor ProcedureThe IDF's practice of "Neighbor procedure", used during the Second Intifada, utilized Palestinians as human shields. Under this procedure, people picked at random were forced by IDF to approach the houses of suspected militants and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. Israeli NGO Adalah legally challenged the practice before Israel's High Court of Justice in 2002. However, the IDF persisted in using Palestinians in its 'neighbor procedure', whereby people picked at random were made to approach the houses of suspects and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. The court ruled in October 2005 "that any use of Palestinian civilians during military actions is forbidden, including the 'prior warning procedure'." According to B'tselem, reports indicate that the practice has continued nonetheless, in military operations like Operation Cast Lead, and Operation Protective Edge, and the "vast majority of these reports were never investigated, and those that did result in no further action".[47]Locating IDF buildings in citiesNeve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, in their study of the phenomenon, note that Israeli citizens in densely populated areas like Tel Aviv are never spoken of as human shields when Hamas fires rockets towards the Israeli Defense command located in the centre of that city, whereas Palestinians in Gaza are depicted as human shields when Israel fires rockets at, or bombs, equally densely populated cities like Gaza.[48]2008–2009 Gaza WarDuring the 2008–09 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and Breaking the Silence.[12] According to testimonies published by these two groups, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[12][23] Amnesty International stated that it found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk".[11] The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during the 2008–09 Gaza conflict.[49][50]The Guardian compiled three videos and testimony from civilians about alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the 2008–09 Gaza War, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields. In the videos, three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family said that they were forced at gunpoint to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and that they were used to "clear" houses for the Israeli soldiers.[51]An IDF soldier's testimony for Breaking the Silence told that his commander ordered that for every house raided by the IDF, they send a "neighbor" to go in before the soldier, sometimes while the soldier placed his gun on the neighbor's shoulder;[52] according to the soldier, "commanders said these were the instructions and we had to do it".[52] Gazan civilians also testified of being used at gunpoint as human shields by Israeli soldiers.[53] An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimize harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson alleged Hamas pressured the people of Gaza into making those accusations.[51]On 12 March 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The boy told he was hit by the soldiers and forced to work for them at gunpoint.[54] The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[55] On 3 October 2010, a conviction in this matter, accompanied by a demotion and suspended sentence, was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[56][57][58][59] The sentence was criticized as too lenient by Human Rights Watch[60] and the boy's mother.[54]2009 to the 2014 Gaza WarA United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces in June 2013 of "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", voicing with deep concern 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013. It says almost all accused soldiers involved in the incidents have gone unpunished.[61]In an interview with Breaking the Silence, a former Israeli soldier recounted that the commander of his unit employed the policy, that of forcing Palestinian civilians to enter the homes of suspected militants ahead of Israeli soldiers, despite acknowledging its ban, as the commander would rather that a Palestinian civilian be killed carrying out the duty than one of his men.[62] He told young Palestinian boys were also used by this particular unit to carry out military duties for the Israeli army.[62]Defense for Children International-Palestine reported 17-year-old, Ahmad Abu Raida (also: "Reeda"),[63] was kidnapped by Israeli soldiers, who, after beating him up and threatening him, at times with sexual overtones,[64] used him as a human shield for five days, forcing him to walk in front of them with police dogs at gunpoint, search houses and dig in places soldiers suspected there might be tunnels.[63][65] The New York Times stated that his assertions could not be independently corroborated; the Israeli military confirmed that he had been detained, noting his father's affiliation with Hamas, who was a senior official in the Gaza Tourism Ministry.[66] No material evidence of the physical violence allegedly suffered by Raida, e.g. photos, medical reports or lingering wounds resulting from repeated blows, was produced.[67]The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor conducted an investigation during and following the military operation. The investigation found that, during the 2014 Gaza War, Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians as shield in Khuza'a. A family told the group that Israeli soldiers had killed the family's patriarch, a 65-year-old who was carrying a white flag, and proceeded to place family members, including children, by the house's windows and shoot from behind them.[63]2022In May 2022, Israeli soldiers were accused of using a 16-year old girl as a human shield during a firefight with Palestinian militants in Jenin. The girl told Defence for Children International in an interview that Israeli soldiers forced her to stand in direct line of fire for two hours even as she begged them to let her go.[68] When Amira Hass from the Ha'aretz contacted Israeli forces regarding this incident, they declined to comment on the human shield reports, simply saying they had behaved "ethically".[69][70]A UN report stated that Israel found four examples of Israel using Palestinian children as human shields in the year 2022 (the report also accused Palestinian militants of using human shields).[71][72]2024On January 16, 2024, IDF soldiers used a Palestinian man as a human shield in Dura, West Bank. Mobile phone video footage showed Israeli soldiers advancing down the street while keeping the Palestinian man in front of them; one of the Israeli soldiers held the Palestinian man and kept his rifle on the Palestinian's shoulder.[73] Now why did you exclude all that information?
Quote from: Not Now Kato on March 18, 2024, 10:56:52 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 09:39:14 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 09:27:56 pmQuote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88] Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
Quote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 09:39:14 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 09:27:56 pmQuote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88] Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 09:27:56 pmQuote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88]
Quote from: Not Now Kato on March 18, 2024, 11:32:38 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 11:03:54 pmQuote from: Not Now Kato on March 18, 2024, 10:56:52 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 09:39:14 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 09:27:56 pmQuote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88] Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict Thank you for the link. Pity you either didn't read it in full or you quoted selectively from it. Here's just some of the bits you missed.... Use by Israeli forcesSee also: Israeli war crimesThe Israeli Defense Forces have been accused of using Palestinians as human shields. Examples of this include: IDF soldiers putting Palestinian civilians in front of them or otherwise putting civilians in the line of fire;[6] forcing Palestinians to remove suspicious objects (possible explosives);[6] sending Palestinians to try and persuade militants to surrender themselves (so-called "neighbor procedure").[6]1948–1967During the 1956–1957 occupation of Gaza Strip by Israel (as part of the Suez crisis), Israeli forces would search homes of suspected Palestinian fedayeen for weapons, caches or concealed fighters. Because these homes could have booby traps or snipers waiting for Israeli soldiers, they would use Palestinian children as human shields.[27]Second IntifadaIsraeli officials reported that the Israel Defense Forces made use of the "human shield" procedure on 1,200 occasions during the Second Intifada (2000–2005).[28] An example of this was chaining a 12-year old Palestinian boy to an Israeli armored vehicle.[28] Israeli officials stated that this procedure killed "only" one Palestinian human shield.[29]According to human rights groups Amnesty International[30] and Human Rights Watch,[31] the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the Second Intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[32][33] Al Mezan reported the systematic use of human shields during the invasion of Beit Hanoun in 2004.[34] Human shields were also employed by Israeli soldiers to subdue a stone-throwing protest in Hebron in 2003.[35]Amnesty gave the following example: on April 5, 2002, an IDF officer took a Palestinian man from his house and asked him to come with them. When the Palestinian man, whose children were around him, repeatedly refused, the IDF officer said "I would prefer not to use force". The IDF officer then grabbed the Palestinian man by the collar and forced him to walk in front of the IDF soldiers. The IDF officer crouched behind the Palestinian man and started firing. Over the course of several hours, IDF soldiers had him repeatedly stand in front of them as they fired at suspected Palestinian militants. During this time the Palestinian man asked to be released but the IDF refused. Finally during one incident the Palestinian man received a bullet on his leg and was finally released by the IDF.[36]In 2002 the Supreme Court of Israel issued a temporary injunction banning the practice in the wake of the death of 19-year-old Nidal Abu Mohsen, who was shot dead when he was forced by the IDF to knock on the door of his neighbor, Hamas militant Nasser Jarrar, in the West Bank village of Tubas and inform him of the Israeli army's demands that he surrender.[28][37][38]In 2004, a 13-year-old boy, Muhammed Badwan, was photographed tied to an Israeli police vehicle in the West Bank village of Biddu being used as a shield to deter stone-throwing protesters.[28][39] Rabbi Arik Ascherman was placed under arrest after he tried to intervene.[37]In 2005, Israel's High Court of Justice banned the practice,[29][40] with the Israeli Defense Ministry appealing the decision.[29][41] While acknowledging and defending the "use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations", a practice known in Israel by the "neighbor procedure",[35] the IDF denied reports of "using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces", saying it had already forbidden this practice.[40]In 2006, however, initial investigations by B'Tselem indicated that the IDF might have used civilians as human shields in 2006 Beit Hanun.[42]In February 2007, the footage was released of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian, whom video showed serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers, getting inside apartments suspected to belong to Palestinian militants ahead of the soldiers.[43][44] A 15-year-old cousin of Amira and an 11-year-old girl in the West Bank independently told B'Tselem in February 2007 that Israeli soldiers forced each of them in separate incidents to open the door of a neighboring apartment belonging to a suspected militant, get inside ahead of them, and open doors and windows.[45]The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident involving Amira.[43] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank operation.[46] In April 2007, CBS News reported that, according to human rights groups, the IDF did not stop the use of human shields, but the incidence was dropping.[32][43]"Neighbor procedure"See also: Criticism of Israel § Neighbor ProcedureThe IDF's practice of "Neighbor procedure", used during the Second Intifada, utilized Palestinians as human shields. Under this procedure, people picked at random were forced by IDF to approach the houses of suspected militants and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. Israeli NGO Adalah legally challenged the practice before Israel's High Court of Justice in 2002. However, the IDF persisted in using Palestinians in its 'neighbor procedure', whereby people picked at random were made to approach the houses of suspects and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. The court ruled in October 2005 "that any use of Palestinian civilians during military actions is forbidden, including the 'prior warning procedure'." According to B'tselem, reports indicate that the practice has continued nonetheless, in military operations like Operation Cast Lead, and Operation Protective Edge, and the "vast majority of these reports were never investigated, and those that did result in no further action".[47]Locating IDF buildings in citiesNeve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, in their study of the phenomenon, note that Israeli citizens in densely populated areas like Tel Aviv are never spoken of as human shields when Hamas fires rockets towards the Israeli Defense command located in the centre of that city, whereas Palestinians in Gaza are depicted as human shields when Israel fires rockets at, or bombs, equally densely populated cities like Gaza.[48]2008–2009 Gaza WarDuring the 2008–09 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and Breaking the Silence.[12] According to testimonies published by these two groups, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[12][23] Amnesty International stated that it found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk".[11] The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during the 2008–09 Gaza conflict.[49][50]The Guardian compiled three videos and testimony from civilians about alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the 2008–09 Gaza War, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields. In the videos, three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family said that they were forced at gunpoint to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and that they were used to "clear" houses for the Israeli soldiers.[51]An IDF soldier's testimony for Breaking the Silence told that his commander ordered that for every house raided by the IDF, they send a "neighbor" to go in before the soldier, sometimes while the soldier placed his gun on the neighbor's shoulder;[52] according to the soldier, "commanders said these were the instructions and we had to do it".[52] Gazan civilians also testified of being used at gunpoint as human shields by Israeli soldiers.[53] An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimize harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson alleged Hamas pressured the people of Gaza into making those accusations.[51]On 12 March 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The boy told he was hit by the soldiers and forced to work for them at gunpoint.[54] The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[55] On 3 October 2010, a conviction in this matter, accompanied by a demotion and suspended sentence, was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[56][57][58][59] The sentence was criticized as too lenient by Human Rights Watch[60] and the boy's mother.[54]2009 to the 2014 Gaza WarA United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces in June 2013 of "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", voicing with deep concern 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013. It says almost all accused soldiers involved in the incidents have gone unpunished.[61]In an interview with Breaking the Silence, a former Israeli soldier recounted that the commander of his unit employed the policy, that of forcing Palestinian civilians to enter the homes of suspected militants ahead of Israeli soldiers, despite acknowledging its ban, as the commander would rather that a Palestinian civilian be killed carrying out the duty than one of his men.[62] He told young Palestinian boys were also used by this particular unit to carry out military duties for the Israeli army.[62]Defense for Children International-Palestine reported 17-year-old, Ahmad Abu Raida (also: "Reeda"),[63] was kidnapped by Israeli soldiers, who, after beating him up and threatening him, at times with sexual overtones,[64] used him as a human shield for five days, forcing him to walk in front of them with police dogs at gunpoint, search houses and dig in places soldiers suspected there might be tunnels.[63][65] The New York Times stated that his assertions could not be independently corroborated; the Israeli military confirmed that he had been detained, noting his father's affiliation with Hamas, who was a senior official in the Gaza Tourism Ministry.[66] No material evidence of the physical violence allegedly suffered by Raida, e.g. photos, medical reports or lingering wounds resulting from repeated blows, was produced.[67]The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor conducted an investigation during and following the military operation. The investigation found that, during the 2014 Gaza War, Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians as shield in Khuza'a. A family told the group that Israeli soldiers had killed the family's patriarch, a 65-year-old who was carrying a white flag, and proceeded to place family members, including children, by the house's windows and shoot from behind them.[63]2022In May 2022, Israeli soldiers were accused of using a 16-year old girl as a human shield during a firefight with Palestinian militants in Jenin. The girl told Defence for Children International in an interview that Israeli soldiers forced her to stand in direct line of fire for two hours even as she begged them to let her go.[68] When Amira Hass from the Ha'aretz contacted Israeli forces regarding this incident, they declined to comment on the human shield reports, simply saying they had behaved "ethically".[69][70]A UN report stated that Israel found four examples of Israel using Palestinian children as human shields in the year 2022 (the report also accused Palestinian militants of using human shields).[71][72]2024On January 16, 2024, IDF soldiers used a Palestinian man as a human shield in Dura, West Bank. Mobile phone video footage showed Israeli soldiers advancing down the street while keeping the Palestinian man in front of them; one of the Israeli soldiers held the Palestinian man and kept his rifle on the Palestinian's shoulder.[73] Now why did you exclude all that information?Now why did you exclude all that information?Because the 20,000 words you have cut and pasted are not relevant to Israeli troops driving tanks over the bodies of dead Terrorists!I hope you had a good read for 2 hours!
Slowly Israel are taking down Hamas now, they just need to keep it going, and when Hamas are asking for fifty named terrorists in exchange for one Israeli armed forces reserve woman Israel are quite happy to say no and keep things going. Hamas seem to think they are still relevant and are willing on their side to keep their subjects in misery.
Quote from: Sprotyrover on March 19, 2024, 01:33:04 pmQuote from: Not Now Kato on March 18, 2024, 11:32:38 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 11:03:54 pmQuote from: Not Now Kato on March 18, 2024, 10:56:52 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 09:39:14 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 09:27:56 pmQuote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88] Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict Thank you for the link. Pity you either didn't read it in full or you quoted selectively from it. Here's just some of the bits you missed.... Use by Israeli forcesSee also: Israeli war crimesThe Israeli Defense Forces have been accused of using Palestinians as human shields. Examples of this include: IDF soldiers putting Palestinian civilians in front of them or otherwise putting civilians in the line of fire;[6] forcing Palestinians to remove suspicious objects (possible explosives);[6] sending Palestinians to try and persuade militants to surrender themselves (so-called "neighbor procedure").[6]1948–1967During the 1956–1957 occupation of Gaza Strip by Israel (as part of the Suez crisis), Israeli forces would search homes of suspected Palestinian fedayeen for weapons, caches or concealed fighters. Because these homes could have booby traps or snipers waiting for Israeli soldiers, they would use Palestinian children as human shields.[27]Second IntifadaIsraeli officials reported that the Israel Defense Forces made use of the "human shield" procedure on 1,200 occasions during the Second Intifada (2000–2005).[28] An example of this was chaining a 12-year old Palestinian boy to an Israeli armored vehicle.[28] Israeli officials stated that this procedure killed "only" one Palestinian human shield.[29]According to human rights groups Amnesty International[30] and Human Rights Watch,[31] the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the Second Intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[32][33] Al Mezan reported the systematic use of human shields during the invasion of Beit Hanoun in 2004.[34] Human shields were also employed by Israeli soldiers to subdue a stone-throwing protest in Hebron in 2003.[35]Amnesty gave the following example: on April 5, 2002, an IDF officer took a Palestinian man from his house and asked him to come with them. When the Palestinian man, whose children were around him, repeatedly refused, the IDF officer said "I would prefer not to use force". The IDF officer then grabbed the Palestinian man by the collar and forced him to walk in front of the IDF soldiers. The IDF officer crouched behind the Palestinian man and started firing. Over the course of several hours, IDF soldiers had him repeatedly stand in front of them as they fired at suspected Palestinian militants. During this time the Palestinian man asked to be released but the IDF refused. Finally during one incident the Palestinian man received a bullet on his leg and was finally released by the IDF.[36]In 2002 the Supreme Court of Israel issued a temporary injunction banning the practice in the wake of the death of 19-year-old Nidal Abu Mohsen, who was shot dead when he was forced by the IDF to knock on the door of his neighbor, Hamas militant Nasser Jarrar, in the West Bank village of Tubas and inform him of the Israeli army's demands that he surrender.[28][37][38]In 2004, a 13-year-old boy, Muhammed Badwan, was photographed tied to an Israeli police vehicle in the West Bank village of Biddu being used as a shield to deter stone-throwing protesters.[28][39] Rabbi Arik Ascherman was placed under arrest after he tried to intervene.[37]In 2005, Israel's High Court of Justice banned the practice,[29][40] with the Israeli Defense Ministry appealing the decision.[29][41] While acknowledging and defending the "use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations", a practice known in Israel by the "neighbor procedure",[35] the IDF denied reports of "using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces", saying it had already forbidden this practice.[40]In 2006, however, initial investigations by B'Tselem indicated that the IDF might have used civilians as human shields in 2006 Beit Hanun.[42]In February 2007, the footage was released of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian, whom video showed serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers, getting inside apartments suspected to belong to Palestinian militants ahead of the soldiers.[43][44] A 15-year-old cousin of Amira and an 11-year-old girl in the West Bank independently told B'Tselem in February 2007 that Israeli soldiers forced each of them in separate incidents to open the door of a neighboring apartment belonging to a suspected militant, get inside ahead of them, and open doors and windows.[45]The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident involving Amira.[43] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank operation.[46] In April 2007, CBS News reported that, according to human rights groups, the IDF did not stop the use of human shields, but the incidence was dropping.[32][43]"Neighbor procedure"See also: Criticism of Israel § Neighbor ProcedureThe IDF's practice of "Neighbor procedure", used during the Second Intifada, utilized Palestinians as human shields. Under this procedure, people picked at random were forced by IDF to approach the houses of suspected militants and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. Israeli NGO Adalah legally challenged the practice before Israel's High Court of Justice in 2002. However, the IDF persisted in using Palestinians in its 'neighbor procedure', whereby people picked at random were made to approach the houses of suspects and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. The court ruled in October 2005 "that any use of Palestinian civilians during military actions is forbidden, including the 'prior warning procedure'." According to B'tselem, reports indicate that the practice has continued nonetheless, in military operations like Operation Cast Lead, and Operation Protective Edge, and the "vast majority of these reports were never investigated, and those that did result in no further action".[47]Locating IDF buildings in citiesNeve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, in their study of the phenomenon, note that Israeli citizens in densely populated areas like Tel Aviv are never spoken of as human shields when Hamas fires rockets towards the Israeli Defense command located in the centre of that city, whereas Palestinians in Gaza are depicted as human shields when Israel fires rockets at, or bombs, equally densely populated cities like Gaza.[48]2008–2009 Gaza WarDuring the 2008–09 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and Breaking the Silence.[12] According to testimonies published by these two groups, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[12][23] Amnesty International stated that it found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk".[11] The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during the 2008–09 Gaza conflict.[49][50]The Guardian compiled three videos and testimony from civilians about alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the 2008–09 Gaza War, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields. In the videos, three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family said that they were forced at gunpoint to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and that they were used to "clear" houses for the Israeli soldiers.[51]An IDF soldier's testimony for Breaking the Silence told that his commander ordered that for every house raided by the IDF, they send a "neighbor" to go in before the soldier, sometimes while the soldier placed his gun on the neighbor's shoulder;[52] according to the soldier, "commanders said these were the instructions and we had to do it".[52] Gazan civilians also testified of being used at gunpoint as human shields by Israeli soldiers.[53] An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimize harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson alleged Hamas pressured the people of Gaza into making those accusations.[51]On 12 March 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The boy told he was hit by the soldiers and forced to work for them at gunpoint.[54] The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[55] On 3 October 2010, a conviction in this matter, accompanied by a demotion and suspended sentence, was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[56][57][58][59] The sentence was criticized as too lenient by Human Rights Watch[60] and the boy's mother.[54]2009 to the 2014 Gaza WarA United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces in June 2013 of "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", voicing with deep concern 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013. It says almost all accused soldiers involved in the incidents have gone unpunished.[61]In an interview with Breaking the Silence, a former Israeli soldier recounted that the commander of his unit employed the policy, that of forcing Palestinian civilians to enter the homes of suspected militants ahead of Israeli soldiers, despite acknowledging its ban, as the commander would rather that a Palestinian civilian be killed carrying out the duty than one of his men.[62] He told young Palestinian boys were also used by this particular unit to carry out military duties for the Israeli army.[62]Defense for Children International-Palestine reported 17-year-old, Ahmad Abu Raida (also: "Reeda"),[63] was kidnapped by Israeli soldiers, who, after beating him up and threatening him, at times with sexual overtones,[64] used him as a human shield for five days, forcing him to walk in front of them with police dogs at gunpoint, search houses and dig in places soldiers suspected there might be tunnels.[63][65] The New York Times stated that his assertions could not be independently corroborated; the Israeli military confirmed that he had been detained, noting his father's affiliation with Hamas, who was a senior official in the Gaza Tourism Ministry.[66] No material evidence of the physical violence allegedly suffered by Raida, e.g. photos, medical reports or lingering wounds resulting from repeated blows, was produced.[67]The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor conducted an investigation during and following the military operation. The investigation found that, during the 2014 Gaza War, Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians as shield in Khuza'a. A family told the group that Israeli soldiers had killed the family's patriarch, a 65-year-old who was carrying a white flag, and proceeded to place family members, including children, by the house's windows and shoot from behind them.[63]2022In May 2022, Israeli soldiers were accused of using a 16-year old girl as a human shield during a firefight with Palestinian militants in Jenin. The girl told Defence for Children International in an interview that Israeli soldiers forced her to stand in direct line of fire for two hours even as she begged them to let her go.[68] When Amira Hass from the Ha'aretz contacted Israeli forces regarding this incident, they declined to comment on the human shield reports, simply saying they had behaved "ethically".[69][70]A UN report stated that Israel found four examples of Israel using Palestinian children as human shields in the year 2022 (the report also accused Palestinian militants of using human shields).[71][72]2024On January 16, 2024, IDF soldiers used a Palestinian man as a human shield in Dura, West Bank. Mobile phone video footage showed Israeli soldiers advancing down the street while keeping the Palestinian man in front of them; one of the Israeli soldiers held the Palestinian man and kept his rifle on the Palestinian's shoulder.[73] Now why did you exclude all that information?Now why did you exclude all that information?Because the 20,000 words you have cut and pasted are not relevant to Israeli troops driving tanks over the bodies of dead Terrorists!I hope you had a good read for 2 hours! You were the one who brought up human shields FFS, and it was your post that had nothing to do with Israeli troops driving anything over anyone. I simply replied to your selective cut and paste with important facts that you selectively omitted regarding the use of human shields. You firstly failed to recognise that there were different incidents of Israeli soldiers driving over people, some dead, some alive, on different dates. When this was pointed out to you you changed the subject with a selective quote about the use of human shields; and when I posted an important part of the page you selectively cut and pasted from you blame me for you changing the subject! It’s all there for anyone to read! You do realise that the more you post the dafter you look?
Quote from: Not Now Kato on March 18, 2024, 11:32:38 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 11:03:54 pmQuote from: Not Now Kato on March 18, 2024, 10:56:52 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 09:39:14 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 09:27:56 pmQuote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88] Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict Thank you for the link. Pity you either didn't read it in full or you quoted selectively from it. Here's just some of the bits you missed.... Use by Israeli forcesSee also: Israeli war crimesThe Israeli Defense Forces have been accused of using Palestinians as human shields. Examples of this include: IDF soldiers putting Palestinian civilians in front of them or otherwise putting civilians in the line of fire;[6] forcing Palestinians to remove suspicious objects (possible explosives);[6] sending Palestinians to try and persuade militants to surrender themselves (so-called "neighbor procedure").[6]1948–1967During the 1956–1957 occupation of Gaza Strip by Israel (as part of the Suez crisis), Israeli forces would search homes of suspected Palestinian fedayeen for weapons, caches or concealed fighters. Because these homes could have booby traps or snipers waiting for Israeli soldiers, they would use Palestinian children as human shields.[27]Second IntifadaIsraeli officials reported that the Israel Defense Forces made use of the "human shield" procedure on 1,200 occasions during the Second Intifada (2000–2005).[28] An example of this was chaining a 12-year old Palestinian boy to an Israeli armored vehicle.[28] Israeli officials stated that this procedure killed "only" one Palestinian human shield.[29]According to human rights groups Amnesty International[30] and Human Rights Watch,[31] the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the Second Intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[32][33] Al Mezan reported the systematic use of human shields during the invasion of Beit Hanoun in 2004.[34] Human shields were also employed by Israeli soldiers to subdue a stone-throwing protest in Hebron in 2003.[35]Amnesty gave the following example: on April 5, 2002, an IDF officer took a Palestinian man from his house and asked him to come with them. When the Palestinian man, whose children were around him, repeatedly refused, the IDF officer said "I would prefer not to use force". The IDF officer then grabbed the Palestinian man by the collar and forced him to walk in front of the IDF soldiers. The IDF officer crouched behind the Palestinian man and started firing. Over the course of several hours, IDF soldiers had him repeatedly stand in front of them as they fired at suspected Palestinian militants. During this time the Palestinian man asked to be released but the IDF refused. Finally during one incident the Palestinian man received a bullet on his leg and was finally released by the IDF.[36]In 2002 the Supreme Court of Israel issued a temporary injunction banning the practice in the wake of the death of 19-year-old Nidal Abu Mohsen, who was shot dead when he was forced by the IDF to knock on the door of his neighbor, Hamas militant Nasser Jarrar, in the West Bank village of Tubas and inform him of the Israeli army's demands that he surrender.[28][37][38]In 2004, a 13-year-old boy, Muhammed Badwan, was photographed tied to an Israeli police vehicle in the West Bank village of Biddu being used as a shield to deter stone-throwing protesters.[28][39] Rabbi Arik Ascherman was placed under arrest after he tried to intervene.[37]In 2005, Israel's High Court of Justice banned the practice,[29][40] with the Israeli Defense Ministry appealing the decision.[29][41] While acknowledging and defending the "use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations", a practice known in Israel by the "neighbor procedure",[35] the IDF denied reports of "using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces", saying it had already forbidden this practice.[40]In 2006, however, initial investigations by B'Tselem indicated that the IDF might have used civilians as human shields in 2006 Beit Hanun.[42]In February 2007, the footage was released of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian, whom video showed serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers, getting inside apartments suspected to belong to Palestinian militants ahead of the soldiers.[43][44] A 15-year-old cousin of Amira and an 11-year-old girl in the West Bank independently told B'Tselem in February 2007 that Israeli soldiers forced each of them in separate incidents to open the door of a neighboring apartment belonging to a suspected militant, get inside ahead of them, and open doors and windows.[45]The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident involving Amira.[43] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank operation.[46] In April 2007, CBS News reported that, according to human rights groups, the IDF did not stop the use of human shields, but the incidence was dropping.[32][43]"Neighbor procedure"See also: Criticism of Israel § Neighbor ProcedureThe IDF's practice of "Neighbor procedure", used during the Second Intifada, utilized Palestinians as human shields. Under this procedure, people picked at random were forced by IDF to approach the houses of suspected militants and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. Israeli NGO Adalah legally challenged the practice before Israel's High Court of Justice in 2002. However, the IDF persisted in using Palestinians in its 'neighbor procedure', whereby people picked at random were made to approach the houses of suspects and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. The court ruled in October 2005 "that any use of Palestinian civilians during military actions is forbidden, including the 'prior warning procedure'." According to B'tselem, reports indicate that the practice has continued nonetheless, in military operations like Operation Cast Lead, and Operation Protective Edge, and the "vast majority of these reports were never investigated, and those that did result in no further action".[47]Locating IDF buildings in citiesNeve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, in their study of the phenomenon, note that Israeli citizens in densely populated areas like Tel Aviv are never spoken of as human shields when Hamas fires rockets towards the Israeli Defense command located in the centre of that city, whereas Palestinians in Gaza are depicted as human shields when Israel fires rockets at, or bombs, equally densely populated cities like Gaza.[48]2008–2009 Gaza WarDuring the 2008–09 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and Breaking the Silence.[12] According to testimonies published by these two groups, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[12][23] Amnesty International stated that it found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk".[11] The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during the 2008–09 Gaza conflict.[49][50]The Guardian compiled three videos and testimony from civilians about alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the 2008–09 Gaza War, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields. In the videos, three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family said that they were forced at gunpoint to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and that they were used to "clear" houses for the Israeli soldiers.[51]An IDF soldier's testimony for Breaking the Silence told that his commander ordered that for every house raided by the IDF, they send a "neighbor" to go in before the soldier, sometimes while the soldier placed his gun on the neighbor's shoulder;[52] according to the soldier, "commanders said these were the instructions and we had to do it".[52] Gazan civilians also testified of being used at gunpoint as human shields by Israeli soldiers.[53] An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimize harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson alleged Hamas pressured the people of Gaza into making those accusations.[51]On 12 March 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The boy told he was hit by the soldiers and forced to work for them at gunpoint.[54] The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[55] On 3 October 2010, a conviction in this matter, accompanied by a demotion and suspended sentence, was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[56][57][58][59] The sentence was criticized as too lenient by Human Rights Watch[60] and the boy's mother.[54]2009 to the 2014 Gaza WarA United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces in June 2013 of "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", voicing with deep concern 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013. It says almost all accused soldiers involved in the incidents have gone unpunished.[61]In an interview with Breaking the Silence, a former Israeli soldier recounted that the commander of his unit employed the policy, that of forcing Palestinian civilians to enter the homes of suspected militants ahead of Israeli soldiers, despite acknowledging its ban, as the commander would rather that a Palestinian civilian be killed carrying out the duty than one of his men.[62] He told young Palestinian boys were also used by this particular unit to carry out military duties for the Israeli army.[62]Defense for Children International-Palestine reported 17-year-old, Ahmad Abu Raida (also: "Reeda"),[63] was kidnapped by Israeli soldiers, who, after beating him up and threatening him, at times with sexual overtones,[64] used him as a human shield for five days, forcing him to walk in front of them with police dogs at gunpoint, search houses and dig in places soldiers suspected there might be tunnels.[63][65] The New York Times stated that his assertions could not be independently corroborated; the Israeli military confirmed that he had been detained, noting his father's affiliation with Hamas, who was a senior official in the Gaza Tourism Ministry.[66] No material evidence of the physical violence allegedly suffered by Raida, e.g. photos, medical reports or lingering wounds resulting from repeated blows, was produced.[67]The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor conducted an investigation during and following the military operation. The investigation found that, during the 2014 Gaza War, Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians as shield in Khuza'a. A family told the group that Israeli soldiers had killed the family's patriarch, a 65-year-old who was carrying a white flag, and proceeded to place family members, including children, by the house's windows and shoot from behind them.[63]2022In May 2022, Israeli soldiers were accused of using a 16-year old girl as a human shield during a firefight with Palestinian militants in Jenin. The girl told Defence for Children International in an interview that Israeli soldiers forced her to stand in direct line of fire for two hours even as she begged them to let her go.[68] When Amira Hass from the Ha'aretz contacted Israeli forces regarding this incident, they declined to comment on the human shield reports, simply saying they had behaved "ethically".[69][70]A UN report stated that Israel found four examples of Israel using Palestinian children as human shields in the year 2022 (the report also accused Palestinian militants of using human shields).[71][72]2024On January 16, 2024, IDF soldiers used a Palestinian man as a human shield in Dura, West Bank. Mobile phone video footage showed Israeli soldiers advancing down the street while keeping the Palestinian man in front of them; one of the Israeli soldiers held the Palestinian man and kept his rifle on the Palestinian's shoulder.[73] Now why did you exclude all that information?Now why did you exclude all that information?Because the 20,000 words you have cut and pasted are not relevant to Israeli troops driving tanks over the bodies of dead Terrorists!I hope you had a good read for 2 hours!
Quote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 11:03:54 pmQuote from: Not Now Kato on March 18, 2024, 10:56:52 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 09:39:14 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 09:27:56 pmQuote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88] Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict Thank you for the link. Pity you either didn't read it in full or you quoted selectively from it. Here's just some of the bits you missed.... Use by Israeli forcesSee also: Israeli war crimesThe Israeli Defense Forces have been accused of using Palestinians as human shields. Examples of this include: IDF soldiers putting Palestinian civilians in front of them or otherwise putting civilians in the line of fire;[6] forcing Palestinians to remove suspicious objects (possible explosives);[6] sending Palestinians to try and persuade militants to surrender themselves (so-called "neighbor procedure").[6]1948–1967During the 1956–1957 occupation of Gaza Strip by Israel (as part of the Suez crisis), Israeli forces would search homes of suspected Palestinian fedayeen for weapons, caches or concealed fighters. Because these homes could have booby traps or snipers waiting for Israeli soldiers, they would use Palestinian children as human shields.[27]Second IntifadaIsraeli officials reported that the Israel Defense Forces made use of the "human shield" procedure on 1,200 occasions during the Second Intifada (2000–2005).[28] An example of this was chaining a 12-year old Palestinian boy to an Israeli armored vehicle.[28] Israeli officials stated that this procedure killed "only" one Palestinian human shield.[29]According to human rights groups Amnesty International[30] and Human Rights Watch,[31] the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the Second Intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[32][33] Al Mezan reported the systematic use of human shields during the invasion of Beit Hanoun in 2004.[34] Human shields were also employed by Israeli soldiers to subdue a stone-throwing protest in Hebron in 2003.[35]Amnesty gave the following example: on April 5, 2002, an IDF officer took a Palestinian man from his house and asked him to come with them. When the Palestinian man, whose children were around him, repeatedly refused, the IDF officer said "I would prefer not to use force". The IDF officer then grabbed the Palestinian man by the collar and forced him to walk in front of the IDF soldiers. The IDF officer crouched behind the Palestinian man and started firing. Over the course of several hours, IDF soldiers had him repeatedly stand in front of them as they fired at suspected Palestinian militants. During this time the Palestinian man asked to be released but the IDF refused. Finally during one incident the Palestinian man received a bullet on his leg and was finally released by the IDF.[36]In 2002 the Supreme Court of Israel issued a temporary injunction banning the practice in the wake of the death of 19-year-old Nidal Abu Mohsen, who was shot dead when he was forced by the IDF to knock on the door of his neighbor, Hamas militant Nasser Jarrar, in the West Bank village of Tubas and inform him of the Israeli army's demands that he surrender.[28][37][38]In 2004, a 13-year-old boy, Muhammed Badwan, was photographed tied to an Israeli police vehicle in the West Bank village of Biddu being used as a shield to deter stone-throwing protesters.[28][39] Rabbi Arik Ascherman was placed under arrest after he tried to intervene.[37]In 2005, Israel's High Court of Justice banned the practice,[29][40] with the Israeli Defense Ministry appealing the decision.[29][41] While acknowledging and defending the "use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations", a practice known in Israel by the "neighbor procedure",[35] the IDF denied reports of "using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces", saying it had already forbidden this practice.[40]In 2006, however, initial investigations by B'Tselem indicated that the IDF might have used civilians as human shields in 2006 Beit Hanun.[42]In February 2007, the footage was released of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian, whom video showed serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers, getting inside apartments suspected to belong to Palestinian militants ahead of the soldiers.[43][44] A 15-year-old cousin of Amira and an 11-year-old girl in the West Bank independently told B'Tselem in February 2007 that Israeli soldiers forced each of them in separate incidents to open the door of a neighboring apartment belonging to a suspected militant, get inside ahead of them, and open doors and windows.[45]The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident involving Amira.[43] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank operation.[46] In April 2007, CBS News reported that, according to human rights groups, the IDF did not stop the use of human shields, but the incidence was dropping.[32][43]"Neighbor procedure"See also: Criticism of Israel § Neighbor ProcedureThe IDF's practice of "Neighbor procedure", used during the Second Intifada, utilized Palestinians as human shields. Under this procedure, people picked at random were forced by IDF to approach the houses of suspected militants and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. Israeli NGO Adalah legally challenged the practice before Israel's High Court of Justice in 2002. However, the IDF persisted in using Palestinians in its 'neighbor procedure', whereby people picked at random were made to approach the houses of suspects and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. The court ruled in October 2005 "that any use of Palestinian civilians during military actions is forbidden, including the 'prior warning procedure'." According to B'tselem, reports indicate that the practice has continued nonetheless, in military operations like Operation Cast Lead, and Operation Protective Edge, and the "vast majority of these reports were never investigated, and those that did result in no further action".[47]Locating IDF buildings in citiesNeve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, in their study of the phenomenon, note that Israeli citizens in densely populated areas like Tel Aviv are never spoken of as human shields when Hamas fires rockets towards the Israeli Defense command located in the centre of that city, whereas Palestinians in Gaza are depicted as human shields when Israel fires rockets at, or bombs, equally densely populated cities like Gaza.[48]2008–2009 Gaza WarDuring the 2008–09 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and Breaking the Silence.[12] According to testimonies published by these two groups, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[12][23] Amnesty International stated that it found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk".[11] The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during the 2008–09 Gaza conflict.[49][50]The Guardian compiled three videos and testimony from civilians about alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the 2008–09 Gaza War, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields. In the videos, three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family said that they were forced at gunpoint to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and that they were used to "clear" houses for the Israeli soldiers.[51]An IDF soldier's testimony for Breaking the Silence told that his commander ordered that for every house raided by the IDF, they send a "neighbor" to go in before the soldier, sometimes while the soldier placed his gun on the neighbor's shoulder;[52] according to the soldier, "commanders said these were the instructions and we had to do it".[52] Gazan civilians also testified of being used at gunpoint as human shields by Israeli soldiers.[53] An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimize harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson alleged Hamas pressured the people of Gaza into making those accusations.[51]On 12 March 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The boy told he was hit by the soldiers and forced to work for them at gunpoint.[54] The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[55] On 3 October 2010, a conviction in this matter, accompanied by a demotion and suspended sentence, was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[56][57][58][59] The sentence was criticized as too lenient by Human Rights Watch[60] and the boy's mother.[54]2009 to the 2014 Gaza WarA United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces in June 2013 of "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", voicing with deep concern 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013. It says almost all accused soldiers involved in the incidents have gone unpunished.[61]In an interview with Breaking the Silence, a former Israeli soldier recounted that the commander of his unit employed the policy, that of forcing Palestinian civilians to enter the homes of suspected militants ahead of Israeli soldiers, despite acknowledging its ban, as the commander would rather that a Palestinian civilian be killed carrying out the duty than one of his men.[62] He told young Palestinian boys were also used by this particular unit to carry out military duties for the Israeli army.[62]Defense for Children International-Palestine reported 17-year-old, Ahmad Abu Raida (also: "Reeda"),[63] was kidnapped by Israeli soldiers, who, after beating him up and threatening him, at times with sexual overtones,[64] used him as a human shield for five days, forcing him to walk in front of them with police dogs at gunpoint, search houses and dig in places soldiers suspected there might be tunnels.[63][65] The New York Times stated that his assertions could not be independently corroborated; the Israeli military confirmed that he had been detained, noting his father's affiliation with Hamas, who was a senior official in the Gaza Tourism Ministry.[66] No material evidence of the physical violence allegedly suffered by Raida, e.g. photos, medical reports or lingering wounds resulting from repeated blows, was produced.[67]The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor conducted an investigation during and following the military operation. The investigation found that, during the 2014 Gaza War, Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians as shield in Khuza'a. A family told the group that Israeli soldiers had killed the family's patriarch, a 65-year-old who was carrying a white flag, and proceeded to place family members, including children, by the house's windows and shoot from behind them.[63]2022In May 2022, Israeli soldiers were accused of using a 16-year old girl as a human shield during a firefight with Palestinian militants in Jenin. The girl told Defence for Children International in an interview that Israeli soldiers forced her to stand in direct line of fire for two hours even as she begged them to let her go.[68] When Amira Hass from the Ha'aretz contacted Israeli forces regarding this incident, they declined to comment on the human shield reports, simply saying they had behaved "ethically".[69][70]A UN report stated that Israel found four examples of Israel using Palestinian children as human shields in the year 2022 (the report also accused Palestinian militants of using human shields).[71][72]2024On January 16, 2024, IDF soldiers used a Palestinian man as a human shield in Dura, West Bank. Mobile phone video footage showed Israeli soldiers advancing down the street while keeping the Palestinian man in front of them; one of the Israeli soldiers held the Palestinian man and kept his rifle on the Palestinian's shoulder.[73] Now why did you exclude all that information?
Quote from: Not Now Kato on March 18, 2024, 10:56:52 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 09:39:14 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 09:27:56 pmQuote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88] Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
Quote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 09:39:14 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 09:27:56 pmQuote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88] Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.
Quote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 09:27:56 pmQuote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88]
Quote from: Not Now Kato on March 19, 2024, 02:53:43 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 19, 2024, 01:33:04 pmQuote from: Not Now Kato on March 18, 2024, 11:32:38 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 11:03:54 pmQuote from: Not Now Kato on March 18, 2024, 10:56:52 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 09:39:14 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 09:27:56 pmQuote from: ncRover on March 18, 2024, 09:20:32 pmQuote from: Bristol Red Rover on March 18, 2024, 08:26:06 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on March 18, 2024, 07:16:05 pm2 entirely different accounts of the same event!I will go with Reuters.Why not go with Israel, and in doing so, just create more desperate angry people for future conflict. Oh, you do... Nice one.Surely all that matters is the truth?Is that the one where Israel is rightfully defending itself by murdering over 35k civilians?According to a paper published by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence, the strategic use of human shields by groups like Hamas hinges on exploiting Israel's aim to minimize civilian casualties and the sensitivity of Western public opinion. This tactic allows Hamas to either accuse Israel of war crimes if civilian casualties occur or to protect its assets and continue operations if the IDF limits its military response. This approach is an example of 'lawfare', using legal and public platforms to challenge an adversary.[78][79] Israel has said that Hamas's actions have been responsible for civilian casualties in Gaza,[80][81] Human rights groups have said that even if Hamas were using human shields, Israel must still abide by international law to protect civilians.[8The Israeli accusations have been supported by NATO,[85] and during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war EU nations condemned Hamas for using hospitals as human shields, while the UN Secretary General said "Hamas and other militants use civilians as human shields".[86][87] In 2023, HRW stated "Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups need to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians under their control from the effects of attacks and not use civilians as 'human shields.'"[88] Cut and paste. But no link to show where it's cut and pasted from or how reliable a source.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict Thank you for the link. Pity you either didn't read it in full or you quoted selectively from it. Here's just some of the bits you missed.... Use by Israeli forcesSee also: Israeli war crimesThe Israeli Defense Forces have been accused of using Palestinians as human shields. Examples of this include: IDF soldiers putting Palestinian civilians in front of them or otherwise putting civilians in the line of fire;[6] forcing Palestinians to remove suspicious objects (possible explosives);[6] sending Palestinians to try and persuade militants to surrender themselves (so-called "neighbor procedure").[6]1948–1967During the 1956–1957 occupation of Gaza Strip by Israel (as part of the Suez crisis), Israeli forces would search homes of suspected Palestinian fedayeen for weapons, caches or concealed fighters. Because these homes could have booby traps or snipers waiting for Israeli soldiers, they would use Palestinian children as human shields.[27]Second IntifadaIsraeli officials reported that the Israel Defense Forces made use of the "human shield" procedure on 1,200 occasions during the Second Intifada (2000–2005).[28] An example of this was chaining a 12-year old Palestinian boy to an Israeli armored vehicle.[28] Israeli officials stated that this procedure killed "only" one Palestinian human shield.[29]According to human rights groups Amnesty International[30] and Human Rights Watch,[31] the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the Second Intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[32][33] Al Mezan reported the systematic use of human shields during the invasion of Beit Hanoun in 2004.[34] Human shields were also employed by Israeli soldiers to subdue a stone-throwing protest in Hebron in 2003.[35]Amnesty gave the following example: on April 5, 2002, an IDF officer took a Palestinian man from his house and asked him to come with them. When the Palestinian man, whose children were around him, repeatedly refused, the IDF officer said "I would prefer not to use force". The IDF officer then grabbed the Palestinian man by the collar and forced him to walk in front of the IDF soldiers. The IDF officer crouched behind the Palestinian man and started firing. Over the course of several hours, IDF soldiers had him repeatedly stand in front of them as they fired at suspected Palestinian militants. During this time the Palestinian man asked to be released but the IDF refused. Finally during one incident the Palestinian man received a bullet on his leg and was finally released by the IDF.[36]In 2002 the Supreme Court of Israel issued a temporary injunction banning the practice in the wake of the death of 19-year-old Nidal Abu Mohsen, who was shot dead when he was forced by the IDF to knock on the door of his neighbor, Hamas militant Nasser Jarrar, in the West Bank village of Tubas and inform him of the Israeli army's demands that he surrender.[28][37][38]In 2004, a 13-year-old boy, Muhammed Badwan, was photographed tied to an Israeli police vehicle in the West Bank village of Biddu being used as a shield to deter stone-throwing protesters.[28][39] Rabbi Arik Ascherman was placed under arrest after he tried to intervene.[37]In 2005, Israel's High Court of Justice banned the practice,[29][40] with the Israeli Defense Ministry appealing the decision.[29][41] While acknowledging and defending the "use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations", a practice known in Israel by the "neighbor procedure",[35] the IDF denied reports of "using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces", saying it had already forbidden this practice.[40]In 2006, however, initial investigations by B'Tselem indicated that the IDF might have used civilians as human shields in 2006 Beit Hanun.[42]In February 2007, the footage was released of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian, whom video showed serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers, getting inside apartments suspected to belong to Palestinian militants ahead of the soldiers.[43][44] A 15-year-old cousin of Amira and an 11-year-old girl in the West Bank independently told B'Tselem in February 2007 that Israeli soldiers forced each of them in separate incidents to open the door of a neighboring apartment belonging to a suspected militant, get inside ahead of them, and open doors and windows.[45]The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident involving Amira.[43] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank operation.[46] In April 2007, CBS News reported that, according to human rights groups, the IDF did not stop the use of human shields, but the incidence was dropping.[32][43]"Neighbor procedure"See also: Criticism of Israel § Neighbor ProcedureThe IDF's practice of "Neighbor procedure", used during the Second Intifada, utilized Palestinians as human shields. Under this procedure, people picked at random were forced by IDF to approach the houses of suspected militants and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. Israeli NGO Adalah legally challenged the practice before Israel's High Court of Justice in 2002. However, the IDF persisted in using Palestinians in its 'neighbor procedure', whereby people picked at random were made to approach the houses of suspects and persuade them to surrender, a practice which arguably placed the former's lives in danger. The court ruled in October 2005 "that any use of Palestinian civilians during military actions is forbidden, including the 'prior warning procedure'." According to B'tselem, reports indicate that the practice has continued nonetheless, in military operations like Operation Cast Lead, and Operation Protective Edge, and the "vast majority of these reports were never investigated, and those that did result in no further action".[47]Locating IDF buildings in citiesNeve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, in their study of the phenomenon, note that Israeli citizens in densely populated areas like Tel Aviv are never spoken of as human shields when Hamas fires rockets towards the Israeli Defense command located in the centre of that city, whereas Palestinians in Gaza are depicted as human shields when Israel fires rockets at, or bombs, equally densely populated cities like Gaza.[48]2008–2009 Gaza WarDuring the 2008–09 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and Breaking the Silence.[12] According to testimonies published by these two groups, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[12][23] Amnesty International stated that it found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk".[11] The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during the 2008–09 Gaza conflict.[49][50]The Guardian compiled three videos and testimony from civilians about alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the 2008–09 Gaza War, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields. In the videos, three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family said that they were forced at gunpoint to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and that they were used to "clear" houses for the Israeli soldiers.[51]An IDF soldier's testimony for Breaking the Silence told that his commander ordered that for every house raided by the IDF, they send a "neighbor" to go in before the soldier, sometimes while the soldier placed his gun on the neighbor's shoulder;[52] according to the soldier, "commanders said these were the instructions and we had to do it".[52] Gazan civilians also testified of being used at gunpoint as human shields by Israeli soldiers.[53] An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimize harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson alleged Hamas pressured the people of Gaza into making those accusations.[51]On 12 March 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The boy told he was hit by the soldiers and forced to work for them at gunpoint.[54] The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[55] On 3 October 2010, a conviction in this matter, accompanied by a demotion and suspended sentence, was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[56][57][58][59] The sentence was criticized as too lenient by Human Rights Watch[60] and the boy's mother.[54]2009 to the 2014 Gaza WarA United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces in June 2013 of "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", voicing with deep concern 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013. It says almost all accused soldiers involved in the incidents have gone unpunished.[61]In an interview with Breaking the Silence, a former Israeli soldier recounted that the commander of his unit employed the policy, that of forcing Palestinian civilians to enter the homes of suspected militants ahead of Israeli soldiers, despite acknowledging its ban, as the commander would rather that a Palestinian civilian be killed carrying out the duty than one of his men.[62] He told young Palestinian boys were also used by this particular unit to carry out military duties for the Israeli army.[62]Defense for Children International-Palestine reported 17-year-old, Ahmad Abu Raida (also: "Reeda"),[63] was kidnapped by Israeli soldiers, who, after beating him up and threatening him, at times with sexual overtones,[64] used him as a human shield for five days, forcing him to walk in front of them with police dogs at gunpoint, search houses and dig in places soldiers suspected there might be tunnels.[63][65] The New York Times stated that his assertions could not be independently corroborated; the Israeli military confirmed that he had been detained, noting his father's affiliation with Hamas, who was a senior official in the Gaza Tourism Ministry.[66] No material evidence of the physical violence allegedly suffered by Raida, e.g. photos, medical reports or lingering wounds resulting from repeated blows, was produced.[67]The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor conducted an investigation during and following the military operation. The investigation found that, during the 2014 Gaza War, Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians as shield in Khuza'a. A family told the group that Israeli soldiers had killed the family's patriarch, a 65-year-old who was carrying a white flag, and proceeded to place family members, including children, by the house's windows and shoot from behind them.[63]2022In May 2022, Israeli soldiers were accused of using a 16-year old girl as a human shield during a firefight with Palestinian militants in Jenin. The girl told Defence for Children International in an interview that Israeli soldiers forced her to stand in direct line of fire for two hours even as she begged them to let her go.[68] When Amira Hass from the Ha'aretz contacted Israeli forces regarding this incident, they declined to comment on the human shield reports, simply saying they had behaved "ethically".[69][70]A UN report stated that Israel found four examples of Israel using Palestinian children as human shields in the year 2022 (the report also accused Palestinian militants of using human shields).[71][72]2024On January 16, 2024, IDF soldiers used a Palestinian man as a human shield in Dura, West Bank. Mobile phone video footage showed Israeli soldiers advancing down the street while keeping the Palestinian man in front of them; one of the Israeli soldiers held the Palestinian man and kept his rifle on the Palestinian's shoulder.[73] Now why did you exclude all that information?Now why did you exclude all that information?Because the 20,000 words you have cut and pasted are not relevant to Israeli troops driving tanks over the bodies of dead Terrorists!I hope you had a good read for 2 hours! You were the one who brought up human shields FFS, and it was your post that had nothing to do with Israeli troops driving anything over anyone. I simply replied to your selective cut and paste with important facts that you selectively omitted regarding the use of human shields. You firstly failed to recognise that there were different incidents of Israeli soldiers driving over people, some dead, some alive, on different dates. When this was pointed out to you you changed the subject with a selective quote about the use of human shields; and when I posted an important part of the page you selectively cut and pasted from you blame me for you changing the subject! It’s all there for anyone to read! You do realise that the more you post the dafter you look?Not half as daft as you, notice you like to jump onto my posts and make some childish observations, interesting also to see BRR liked your post!
It would all end tomorrow if Hamas just surrendered, but no they are happy for themselves and dragging innocents into their suffering, must be a macho thing, or they don't actually give a flying fig for the people they are supposed to govern.
Glad you pointed that out BRR, so they are are in it together to the bitter end eh? Why is it they are always running around like headless chickens on the news reports!
Quote from: Sprotyrover on March 20, 2024, 03:33:34 pmGlad you pointed that out BRR, so they are are in it together to the bitter end eh? Why is it they are always running around like headless chickens on the news reports!Don't know what exactly you're referring to. You in agreement with the insanity and futility of Israeli murdering then?