Electric cars and the environment (warning cheat sheet)

[Herbert Anchovy]

As a kid living in Rossington, I remember walking to school in a morning and seeing everything covered with a thin layer of coal dust. Looking back it was absolutely disgusting and that, along with the traffic pissing out god knows how much poison, must have contributed to health problems for many people.

The only problem that I have with electric vehicles is that you can't hear the buggers when you're crossing the road!

[drfchound]

But you don't want to work or live near a nuclear plant? It's safe for someone else to take the risk.

My brother worked at Sellafield for about a year and came home with more than he went with.

That might have been down to Sellafield Sue.

[normal rules]

I saw a Vw golf E the other day. It was alight at the roadside having internally combusted. It was during that little winter spell last Sunday. All the snow around and under it had melted. They do have their uses.

[SydneyRover]

I saw a Vw golf E the other day. It was alight at the roadside having internally combusted. It was during that little winter spell last Sunday. All the snow around and under it had melted. They do have their uses.

It sounds like you are being drip fed from the oil and big car companies nr.

''Oil industry is ‘peddling misinformation’ about electric vehicles''

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/26/electric-vehicles-will-prevail-despite-oil-industry-misinformation.html

[normal rules]

I saw a Vw golf E the other day. It was alight at the roadside having internally combusted. It was during that little winter spell last Sunday. All the snow around and under it had melted. They do have their uses.

It sounds like you are being drip fed from the oil and big car companies nr.

''Oil industry is ‘peddling misinformation’ about electric vehicles''

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/26/electric-vehicles-will-prevail-despite-oil-industry-misinformation.html

Nope. I have no doubt that electric vehicle will become mainstream at some point . Personally I won’t go near one until such time as they are affordable and more practical range wise for me . My daily Commute is a 9 year old VW up that cost me 5 grand 2 yrs ago and is bought and paid for. It does over 400 mile to a tank and is very reliable. The VW ev equivalent is 30 grand .
I can’t and won’t justify buying an EV. Yet.

[albie]

Albie you have conveniently glossed over the fact that wind and solar has been and is heavily subsidised by the UK government

 

No, ncRover, I have not forgotten subsidies.

Nuclear is 100% subsidised, because the unknown future costs of decommissioning are retained by the public purse.
This is in addition to massive Capex support for construction, because private sector investors will not touch nuclear without guaranteed rates of return.

You might have seen this report from Sellafield of the repository leaks from radioactive material:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/05/sellafield-nuclear-site-leak-could-pose-risk-to-public

There are no valid economic reasons for new UK nuclear developments.

[selby]

  If you don't have access to a home charger it is now more expensive to run an EV than petrol or diesel.
  The government have also found a nice little earner charging 20% vat on fast charging points and 5% on others which comes in handy.
  Estimated costs per mile now come in 14p to 16p for diesel 16p to 18p Petrol  19p to 22p EV plus the premium on purchase and the expected increase in insurance premiums for EV's and they are going to have to have one almighty sales pitch for them to become the go to vehicle for anyone but fleet owners, and when the residual prices hit home they will drop out of the market pretty quickly.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

You wouldn't get one and not charge at home though would you?  I do agree they're too advantageous for company drivers.  Eg you can supply free charging to employees with no tax, but provide fuel and it's a benefit. They'll hit that eventually.

[drfchound]

Not everyone has the facility to be able to charge an EV at home so that in itself prevents a big proportion of the public getting one.

[albie]

Selby,

I don't know where you are getting this information from, but it is misleading.
Sales of EV are rising rapidly, and displacing ICE going forwards.

The biggest car markets in Europe have made significant progress since 2019.
Between 2019 and 2023, the EV share of sales has increased:
● From 2.8% to 25% in France.
● From 2.2% to 24% in the UK.
● From 3% to 22% in Germany.

Nordic countries are much higher, having adopted EV much earlier.
As volumes increase, purchase costs are falling to parity in mid market models.

This is a one way street of exponential growth, and ICE will fall off a cliff after 2025.
Chinese production for export is the next breaking moment, because the manufacturers in Europe have been too slow to adapt to the new market.

Where do you get the idea insurance premiums will increase for EV, but not for ICE?
Exactly the opposite I would think, if the safety profile of an EV exceeds the legacy ICE.

Once folk have an EV, then solar on the roof becomes more attractive, and your leccy company will install a home charger.
The savvy will use the least cost recharging option. Those without those options will charge at a charging station, which will compete on price, a bit like petrol stations do now.

[ravenrover]

I wonder how many electic car owners were sweating on Saturday after the pile uo on the A1 North of Blyth, the traffic was in a constant very slow crawl, no chance to turn the leccy off

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I wonder how many electic car owners were sweating on Saturday after the pile uo on the A1 North of Blyth, the traffic was in a constant very slow crawl, no chance to turn the leccy off

Probably plenty banging the heating up, you get really strong miles per kWh at slow pace and no emissions either.....

[selby]

  Novembers total sales are up year on year because entirely due to fleet sales, the private sales are down 9% year on year for November.
 Companies get brownie points and tax advantages, the private buyer cannot afford the premium of pricing, or the massive value drop on purchase, installation costs of chargers if their property is compatible,  and now the cost of quick charging while travelling, not to mention the lack of charging points.
  It will be interesting to see how the market goes.

[danumdon]

Albie you have conveniently glossed over the fact that wind and solar has been and is heavily subsidised by the UK government

 

No, ncRover, I have not forgotten subsidies.

Nuclear is 100% subsidised, because the unknown future costs of decommissioning are retained by the public purse.
This is in addition to massive Capex support for construction, because private sector investors will not touch nuclear without guaranteed rates of return.

You might have seen this report from Sellafield of the repository leaks from radioactive material:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/05/sellafield-nuclear-site-leak-could-pose-risk-to-public

There are no valid economic reasons for new UK nuclear developments.

The economic reason may not be there just now but what happens when fossil fuel has been priced out of the equation throughout Europe.

As a Northern European country of a certain size can we proceed forward relying on current and expected renewables only? will capture and storage capacity, cost,and infrastructure be in place to take over?

If the economic argument is not there what about the strategic requirements for National Security?

Seems like a great many considerations that need to be of a proven certainty have not yet been formalised to the extent that we will be seeing fossil fuel and ICE cars for a great deal longer yet.

[RobTheRover]

I wonder how many electic car owners were sweating on Saturday after the pile uo on the A1 North of Blyth, the traffic was in a constant very slow crawl, no chance to turn the leccy off

Probably plenty banging the heating up, you get really strong miles per kWh at slow pace and no emissions either.....

Yep, damn that regeneration that the anti-EV brigade don't know about, Eh BFYP.

I get my BMW i4 in about a month.

[Ldr]

I wonder how many electic car owners were sweating on Saturday after the pile uo on the A1 North of Blyth, the traffic was in a constant very slow crawl, no chance to turn the leccy off

Probably plenty banging the heating up, you get really strong miles per kWh at slow pace and no emissions either.....

Yep, damn that regeneration that the anti-EV brigade don't know about, Eh BFYP.

I get my BMW i4 in about a month.

Looked at that Rob, went for the IX in the end, loving it

[albie]

Danum Don,

Yes, the UK can support its energy needs from renewables.
Here is the summary of a recent report from Oxford University;
https://www.smithschool.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2023-09/Policy-brief-Britains-energy-demand-could-be-met-entirely-by-wind-and-solar.pdf

Much cheaper and very much quicker than relying on future nuclear, which has a long project delivery timeline.
Hinkley have just posted further delay to completion and even more cost escalation, with a row about who carries the can.
https://www.ft.com/content/2bccd67f-a3c6-48d1-baa5-8ef9d54cdf67

The Chinese are out of the running for the proposed Sizewell reactor, leaving the UK government and EDF(owned by the French government) arguing about who will pick up the bill for the capital expenditure. In the long run, consumers will be expected to pay, by giving a guaranteed rate of return to the developers.

With regard to energy security, I would think that large centralised facilities are the most vulnerable.
Think about Zap in Ukraine, or the downtime of over 50% the French suffered last year.

[selby]

  Can anybody explain to me why Hydro is more or less completely ignored in this country as a large source of generating power.

[SydneyRover]

Press release Published

14 December 2023

Major boost for hydrogen as UK unlocks new investment and jobs
Eleven new production projects helping to place UK at forefront of hydrogen industry and bring progress towards net zero ambitions.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/major-boost-for-hydrogen-as-uk-unlocks-new-investment-and-jobs#:~:text=Today's%20announcement%20represents%20the%20largest,England%20to%20Cromarty%20in%20Scotland.

[Sprotyrover]

Often wondered about that the River Don could generate a great deal using culverts like Tesladid in Serbia 125 years ago!

[selby]

  I have seen it work well in small villages in Wales near Devils Bridge area Where the villagers are fed electric from turbines in small rivers, and there used to be one fed into the grid in the river Aire near Rothwell but very few as far as I know.
  Is it economy of scale, or the fact that big generators don't want the spread of small independent cooperative's springing up.   

[SydneyRover]

Just remember whatever you drive, more roads lead to more congestion, but I guess there will be less pollution. Induced Demand is what drives it, so to speak.

This article from 2015 explains it and incidentally the new section of westconnex in Sydney opened a few weeks ago and made traffic immediately worse. We campaigned for years to stop it and build more PT, at a cost of over $4bn and climbing. We told the government at the beginning.

https://theconversation.com/do-more-roads-really-mean-less-congestion-for-commuters-39508#:~:text=Induced%20demand&text=If%20a%20new%20road%20makes,after%20that%3B%20and%20so%20on.

 

[selby]

  So the Australian Government don't listen to you either then Syd,
Probably just dumped the letter on the pile with the rest.

[SydneyRover]

You could say it was as effective as you advising drfc, for how long, and look where we are aye?

[Ldr]

You could say it was as effective as you advising drfc, for how long, and look where we are aye?

Syd maybe if you start spunking over Faulkner and Selby starts on congestion things may change Merry Christmas to you both

[Metalmicky]

Interesting.....

https://qz.com/chicago-evs-tesla-cold-weather-battery-performance-1851172536

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Definitely takes longer to charge in the cold for sure.  Not really sure it's news.

[albie]

Some real news:
https://news.mit.edu/2024/cobalt-free-batteries-could-power-future-cars-0118

So farewell then, cobalt.

[normal rules]

£180 flat rate road tax for all existing EVs from 1apr 2025.
Meanwhile low emission petrol and diesel cars currently on band A will move to band B and pay just £20.
Oh, and if you have deep pockets and fork out over 40k for one, you will pay an extra £355 per year for five years as an extra supplement. Adding over £1700 to the price of running it.
There must be an incentive to buy an EV in there somewhere?

[DRFC_AjA]

£180 flat rate road tax for all existing EVs from 1apr 2025.
Meanwhile low emission petrol and diesel cars currently on band A will move to band B and pay just £20.
Oh, and if you have deep pockets and fork out over 40k for one, you will pay an extra £355 per year for five years as an extra supplement. Adding over £1700 to the price of running it.
There must be an incentive to buy an EV in there somewhere?

Majority of people who are driving an EV are doing so because there's either a rather large tax advantage or they are able to charge extremely cheaply, or in most cases both.

Its cheaper. I think its a bit of a myth that anyone are doing it because it's greener

Wait til the cheap Chinese cars start flooding in next year then you'll see even more on the roads