Electric cars and the environment (warning cheat sheet)

[SydneyRover]

Getting straight to the nub .......

The verdict

''The data we have leaves little doubt that resource extraction will be significantly lower for electric cars compared with their petrol or diesel equivalents as recycling increases.

And neither do the green credentials of electric cars absolve the buyers of battery minerals of responsibility for abuses in the supply chain. Dummett said he hopes the mining industy will “use this moment to reform itself”.

The detail is in the link

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/01/do-electric-cars-have-problem-mining-for-minerals

Increased participation with good quality and cheap public transport would help help us get to a safer planet sooner.

[GazLaz]

I’ve just got a full electric, twin motor Volvo C40. Lovely motor.

[DRFC_AjA]

Likewise with a polestar. But I'm under no illusions I'm doing anything for the environment. The cars made in China and while the UK may hit low emissions targets its because we don't build anything, the emissions from producing have been outsourced. Those emissions are sometimes added to some calculations as indirect or "scope 3" emissions but not usually. We don't manufacture much but the once skilled folk who produced things can look out to sea at nice windmills on the way to the dole office now all in the name of the environment

[SydneyRover]

Likewise with a polestar. But I'm under no illusions I'm doing anything for the environment. The cars made in China and while the UK may hit low emissions targets its because we don't build anything, the emissions from producing have been outsourced. Those emissions are sometimes added to some calculations as indirect or "scope 3" emissions but not usually. We don't manufacture much but the once skilled folk who produced things can look out to sea at nice windmills on the way to the dole office now all in the name of the environment

Therefore the same claim could be made for ice cars, no? and as EVs will be less destructive to the environment (from the link) you are assisting said environment.

[selby]

  The extra contamination in the build of electric cars means that they have to do over 77,000 miles before they level up on the emissions of an ice car according to a report in the USA yesterday.

[SydneyRover]

Read the link I posted selby ............ and then post your link

[normal rules]

Whilst this topic is regarding ev and the environment, it’s worth considering the power usage for Charging across the entire network also.
I have a friend who has been raving about his Tesla and the supercharger network. I did a bit of research on them and their power usage. An average home uses around 1.2 kw per hour. Tesla are about to bring out a 350 kWh supercharger. So on full charge that’s the equivalent power usage of around 290 average homes. Put a bank of six together and that’s around the equivalent power draw of 1750 homes. Multiply that by the supercharger network (1100 in uk currently) and you are into the equivalent of 2 million homes. Now overlay this with the backdrop that the national grid already have a system in place for blackout prevention, where they are paying people not to use electricity during peak times, and you get an idea where we are going with this.
And this is just Tesla super chargers.
And whilst I appreciate not all super chargers are in use all day every day, you get the idea. We are going from gas guzzlers to power guzzlers.

[SydneyRover]

Buses and trucks are large power users NR, those driving superchargers will as now be in the minority.

Here's an article about community batteries

https://energypost.eu/community-batteries-when-theyre-the-best-option-for-overcoming-grid-constraints-and-when-theyre-not/

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Got a full electric and a plug in hybrid.  Still not convinced on a full electric for long journeys until the range improves.   Driving wise no real faults at all.

[DRFC_AjA]

Likewise with a polestar. But I'm under no illusions I'm doing anything for the environment. The cars made in China and while the UK may hit low emissions targets its because we don't build anything, the emissions from producing have been outsourced. Those emissions are sometimes added to some calculations as indirect or "scope 3" emissions but not usually. We don't manufacture much but the once skilled folk who produced things can look out to sea at nice windmills on the way to the dole office now all in the name of the environment

Therefore the same claim could be made for ice cars, no? and as EVs will be less destructive to the environment (from the link) you are assisting said environment.

Indeed you are correct, at least with an EV you're not putting emissions in your local environment. Added to that if you can source the electric via renewable then its win win. My point was mainly the production has been shifted to the other side of the world, so net net while the UK might hit emissions targets, globally there's still a lot to do.

[SydneyRover]

And .....

''Air Pollution Kills Millions Every Year: Action Needed''

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/09/07/air-pollution-kills-millions-every-year-action-needed#:~:text=An%20estimated%20seven%20million%20people,are%20every%20bit%20as%20real.

[Nudga]

I've got a BMW ix3, I hate it. It's dull, uncomfortable to drive and the range is terrible.
Says something when I'd rather go in my van to Peterborough than that pile of shite.

[SydneyRover]

Begs the question, why do you have a bmw 1x3?

[Nudga]

Begs the question, why do you have a bmw 1x3?

The wife got it through NHS salary sacrifice. It's going back soon.

Think I might get 5.5 Mustang next.

[normal rules]

Tesla model Y battery.

To manufacture it you need:
--12 tons of rock for Lithium (can also be
    extracted from sea water)
-- 5 tons of cobalt minerals (Most cobalt is made
    as a byproduct of the processing of copper
    and nickel ores. It is the most difficult material
    to obtain for a battery and the most
    expensive.)
-- 3 tons nickel ore
-- 12 tons of copper ore

You must move 250 tons of soil to obtain:
-- 26.5 pounds of Lithium
-- 30 pounds of nickel
-- 48.5 pounds of manganese
-- 15 pounds of cobalt

To manufacture the battery also requires:
-- 441 pounds of aluminum, steel and/or plastic
-- 112 pounds of graphite

The Caterpillar 994A is used for the earthmoving to obtain the essential minerals. It consumes 264 gallons of diesel in 12 hours.

Finally you get a “zero emissions” car.

Presently, the bulk of the necessary minerals for manufacturing the batteries come from China or Africa. Much of the labor for getting the minerals in Africa is done by children! If we buy electric cars, it's China who profits most!

BTW, a 2021 Tesla Model Y OEM battery (the cheapest Tesla battery) is currently for sale on the Internet for $4,999 not including shipping or installation. The battery weighs 1,000 pounds (you can imagine the shipping cost). The cost of Tesla batteries is:

Model 3 -- $14,000+ (Car MSRP $38,990)
Model Y -- $5,000–$5,500 (Car MSRP $47,740)
Model S -- $13,000–$20,000 (Car MSRP $74,990)
Model X -- $13,000+ (Car MSRP $79,990)

It takes SEVEN years for an electric car to reach net-zero CO2. The life expectancy of the batteries is 10 years (average). Only in the last three years do you begin to reduce your carbon footprint. Then the batteries have to be replaced and you lose all the gains you made in those three years.

[SydneyRover]

NR, the whole point of the link in my first post was to compare EVs to ICE vehicles, therefore if you are putting figures up for mining of required minerals they should be compare to the mining of minerals and oil and what lies in the future.

[dknward2]

Colbolt is also needed to refine petrol and diesel people seem to forget that fact

[albie]

The next generation of batteries will replace the expensive minerals in Lithium Iron batteries, and the price at sale will fall as a result.

You also need to consider that high value input materials have potential re-use as a feedstock in future years.
Even if battery chemistry remained the same (and it will not), the elements recycled will displace use of virgin sources on cost grounds.

The new battery chemistry is being introduced in China as we speak, and will become the dominant force in the near future.

[ncRover]

60% of electricity generation on December 2nd 2023 came from fossil fuels (Mostly gas and then 3% coal).

12% is coming from mainland Europe with most of that from France who are sensibly powered by mostly nuclear.

We will not be able to power everybody’s electric cars and heat pumps in the near net-zero future.

We need to build more nuclear.

https://x.com/thesnowdreamer/status/1730966536582476248?s=46

[SydneyRover]

Just have to sort out a few teething problems is all nc

''Sellafield nuclear site hacked by groups linked to Russia and China
Exclusive: Malware may still be present and potential effects have been covered up by staff, investigation reveals

‘Bottomless pit of hell, money and despair’ at Europe’s most toxic nuclear site''

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/04/sellafield-nuclear-site-hacked-groups-russia-china

[albie]

Sorry ncRover, but the comments you posted above in 18 are way off the mark.

You cannot use a single day as a reference point.
The data is annualised specifically to avoid that, and to give a full year round picture.

The UK has always imported electricity from the continent in recent years.
This is a good thing when it makes the whole system more resilient, and the European supergrid project means that cross border transmission will increase to provide greater energy security.

France has an elderley nuclear fleet, 50% out of commission due to unplanned downtime last winter.
They are in a better position than the UK in that home heating is more electrified, but vulnerable because of over dependence on an expensive single technology.
That technology is obsolete and financially unviable unless bankrolled by a state funding support.

When you advocate new nuclear, no venture capital will touch it, so the public sector would need to heavily subsidise it.
It is also a rising cost sector, while wind and solar are reducing in cost each year.

The levelised cost of energy shows each unit produced by nuclear is between 5x and 9x more expensive than using real renewables like wind and solar.
This needs to be considered as the lead time for new nuclear is 15 to 20 years, so that differential will widen.

Hinckley C is years behind schedule, and massively over budget, and the industry has an appalling record on project delivery to specification.

If you believe that there will be a supply crisis, you would need to explain your workings on the energy efficiency assumptions.
After all, efficiency is rising alongside supply side innovations. Those reforms run beside demand side measures that look to smooth peak hour spikes in consumer demand.

[ncRover]

Just have to sort out a few teething problems is all nc

''Sellafield nuclear site hacked by groups linked to Russia and China
Exclusive: Malware may still be present and potential effects have been covered up by staff, investigation reveals

‘Bottomless pit of hell, money and despair’ at Europe’s most toxic nuclear site''

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/04/sellafield-nuclear-site-hacked-groups-russia-china

The Guardian is your drip feed of opinion isn’t it ? Try being a bit more open minded

There are no solutions, only trade offs

Nuclear is no less safe whilst being more reliable, energy and space efficient and ultimately ends up with less co2 emissions than wind.

If we are in a climate catastrophe as you/the guardian say then a bit of nuclear waste is worth it. And the technology is always improving

France generates 70% of its electricity from nuclear. We’ll see the trajectories our economies take

[ncRover]

Albie you have conveniently glossed over the fact that wind and solar has been and is heavily subsidised by the UK government

 

[SydneyRover]

Just have to sort out a few teething problems is all nc

''Sellafield nuclear site hacked by groups linked to Russia and China
Exclusive: Malware may still be present and potential effects have been covered up by staff, investigation reveals

‘Bottomless pit of hell, money and despair’ at Europe’s most toxic nuclear site''

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/04/sellafield-nuclear-site-hacked-groups-russia-china

The Guardian is your drip feed of opinion isn’t it ? Try being a bit more open minded

There are no solutions, only trade offs

Nuclear is no less safe whilst being more reliable, energy and space efficient and ultimately ends up with less co2 emissions than wind.

If we are in a climate catastrophe as you/the guardian say then a bit of nuclear waste is worth it. And the technology is always improving

France generates 70% of its electricity from nuclear. We’ll see the trajectories our economies take

Show what is incorrect in the guardian which would show maturity nc

List of nuclear power accidents by country

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_power_accidents_by_country

Have you ever worked in a nuclear plant or lived close to one?

[ncRover]

Just have to sort out a few teething problems is all nc

''Sellafield nuclear site hacked by groups linked to Russia and China
Exclusive: Malware may still be present and potential effects have been covered up by staff, investigation reveals

‘Bottomless pit of hell, money and despair’ at Europe’s most toxic nuclear site''

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/04/sellafield-nuclear-site-hacked-groups-russia-china

The Guardian is your drip feed of opinion isn’t it ? Try being a bit more open minded

There are no solutions, only trade offs

Nuclear is no less safe whilst being more reliable, energy and space efficient and ultimately ends up with less co2 emissions than wind.

If we are in a climate catastrophe as you/the guardian say then a bit of nuclear waste is worth it. And the technology is always improving

France generates 70% of its electricity from nuclear. We’ll see the trajectories our economies take

Show what is incorrect in the guardian which would show maturity nc

List of nuclear power accidents by country

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_power_accidents_by_country

Have you ever worked in a nuclear plant or lived close to one?

https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy

[SydneyRover]

Does the article address all the nuclear accidents around the world nc? if it doesn't then it's a crock.

Besides that as shown in the Ukraine nuclear plants are targets and are on all the maps. Neighbourhood grids powered by solar are the future.

I'll ask again have you worked or lived near a nuclear plant?

[ncRover]

This site gives the full picture using facts and data, not a singular article from an agenda driven Guardian.

Death rates per unit of electricity production

Coal 24.62
Biomass 4.63
Gas 2.82
Hydro 1.3
Wind 0.04
Nuclear 0.03
Solar 0.02

Wind and solar needs back up. That is currently in the form of fossil fuels.

Nuclear is reliable and can go in all weather conditions, therefore doesn’t need the same amount of dangerous back up.

So overall safer.

[SydneyRover]

Would you go swimming where the Japanese are releasing contaminated water or want to eat the seafood from there, or live/work at or in Chernobyl?

This is Australia's very small nuclear facility safety report mainly medical and extremely important but it still has accidents.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/lcdocs/other/12984/Mr%20Ryan%20Hemsley%20-%20ARPANSA%20-%20AQoNs%20-%2011%20November%202019.pdf

[ncRover]

Sydney

Chernobyl was a communism problem. Fukushima was from a tsunami as a result of a m9.0 earthquake from a slip strike between the Eurasian and pacific tectonic plates. This is not relevant to the UK.

1 person died 4 years later from Fukushima radiation. The earthquake killed 20,000. Following your precautionary principle we should evacuate Japan due to it lying on a fault line?

I’ve proven that nuclear has the best safety record for humans so you’ve decided to scrape the barrel and move on to wildlife.

Ok.

Wind farms require 360 times the land area and solar farms 75 times to match the output of a nuclear power station. That’s a lot of habitat loss. Up to 100,000 birds are killed by wind turbines each year in the UK, but I’m not calling for them to be torn down.

Also I used to live within a mile or so of Drax so yes I would live next to a nuclear if I had to because as the data shows, it would have been safer.

[SydneyRover]

But you don't want to work or live near a nuclear plant? It's safe for someone else to take the risk.

My brother worked at Sellafield for about a year and came home with more than he went with.