Mick Lynch says voters must ‘grow up’ and see Starmer is only alternative

[ravenrover]

If you think it's going to be hard to put the wrongs right now just remember there's another 8 or 9 months of traps being laid

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP.

Literally no-one says putting this right is going to be easy. We have been going in the wrong economic direction since the country (including you, remember?) rejected standard textbook economics in 2010 and chose the voodoo economics of Austerity.

Since then, our productivity has flat lined, predominantly because our capital investment has flat lined.

When you've been driving in totally the wrong direction for 14 years, then you change driver, do you expect to arrive where you want to go immediately? And do you berate the new driver for not getting you there on time?

[Bentley Bullet]

Let's get Starmer in the driving seat, he specialises in U-turns.

[Jonathan]

Too much is given to the apparent u-turns isn’t it. The ability to change course in response to changing conditions should not necessarily be dismissed as a weakness. But to do so makes for an easy and catchy headline.

[Bentley Bullet]

Tory U-turns in response to changing conditions were dismissed as a weakness, weren't they? 

What's wrong with a bit of Starmer karma hitting the headlines now?

[SydneyRover]

Where's tyke and Albie??

[selby]

  Looks like your getting your excuses in a couple of years early to me there Billy.

[Sprotyrover]

Frightening we have resident leftie already making excuses for a Labour Government!

[ncRover]

https://inews.co.uk/news/rupert-murdoch-labour-keir-starme-2913677

Murdoch media considering backing Labour. Perhaps they are just good at gauging the tide of public opinion.

[SydneyRover]

Tory U-turns in response to changing conditions were dismissed as a weakness, weren't they? 

What's wrong with a bit of Starmer karma hitting the headlines now?

Problem is bb tory u-turns are all joined up making the tories go around in circles.

Here's a few variations they have achieved ......

ooooo888888888888800000000000000OOOOOOOOOOOO@@@@@@@@@@@@@@௹௹௹௹௹௹௹௹௹⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰

[SydneyRover]

This is the topic where your comments may even be entertaining tyke

[drfchound]

Tory U-turns in response to changing conditions were dismissed as a weakness, weren't they? 

What's wrong with a bit of Starmer karma hitting the headlines now?

Problem is bb tory u-turns are all joined up making the tories go around in circles.

Here's a few variations they have achieved ......

ooooo888888888888800000000000000OOOOOOOOOOOO@@@@@@@@@@@@@@௹௹௹௹௹௹௹௹௹⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰

Anyone ?

[Ldr]

Tory U-turns in response to changing conditions were dismissed as a weakness, weren't they? 

What's wrong with a bit of Starmer karma hitting the headlines now?

Problem is bb tory u-turns are all joined up making the tories go around in circles.

Here's a few variations they have achieved ......

ooooo888888888888800000000000000OOOOOOOOOOOO@@@@@@@@@@@@@@௹௹௹௹௹௹௹௹௹⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰

Anyone ?

He wants attention

[SydneyRover]

now, now children, don't fill all the space up with sour grapes, leave some for tyke and albie to say something on this topic

[selby]

  Reform coming up quickly on the rails?  Labour licking backsides to keep the Islamic vote on side isn't a good look either.
  Big question there for millions of people, Religion, Palestine, and a new Party for themselves or prop Labours voter numbers up keep the free bees.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

BFYP.

Literally no-one says putting this right is going to be easy. We have been going in the wrong economic direction since the country (including you, remember?) rejected standard textbook economics in 2010 and chose the voodoo economics of Austerity.

Since then, our productivity has flat lined, predominantly because our capital investment has flat lined.

When you've been driving in totally the wrong direction for 14 years, then you change driver, do you expect to arrive where you want to go immediately? And do you berate the new driver for not getting you there on time?

Yeah increasing borrowing went really well for Liz Truss didn't it......

Are we saying we need to get public sector spending back to 2010 levels?  How much would that cost?  How is it being funded?

So far all we see from Labour in terms of policies is more of the same.  I have issues with quite a few government policies but I'm not seeing solutions from anywhere.

It sounds like getting excuses in for failures already to me!  To add to your analogy, I'd expect the other driver to get me there if they keep telling me they're so much better!  I fear as a country we're going to swap Mcsheffrey for Schofield!

[danumdon]

BFYP.

Literally no-one says putting this right is going to be easy. We have been going in the wrong economic direction since the country (including you, remember?) rejected standard textbook economics in 2010 and chose the voodoo economics of Austerity.

Since then, our productivity has flat lined, predominantly because our capital investment has flat lined.

When you've been driving in totally the wrong direction for 14 years, then you change driver, do you expect to arrive where you want to go immediately? And do you berate the new driver for not getting you there on time?

Yeah increasing borrowing went really well for Liz Truss didn't it......

Are we saying we need to get public sector spending back to 2010 levels?  How much would that cost?  How is it being funded?

So far all we see from Labour in terms of policies is more of the same.  I have issues with quite a few government policies but I'm not seeing solutions from anywhere.

It sounds like getting excuses in for failures already to me!  To add to your analogy, I'd expect the other driver to get me there if they keep telling me they're so much better!  I fear as a country we're going to swap Mcsheffrey for Schofield!

Right point, wrong analogy, It should of been McSheffery to Butler because we are in effect going backwards to rookie politicians with no experience of running anything.

Schofield had done his time as a coach, this lot have no track record of even running a whelk store to back them up.

[ravenrover]

What track record did the current bunch have?

[danumdon]

A good proportion of them have been in government over the last 14 years and know what's required, that they have managed to make a pigs ear of it for the vast majority of their time is not for debate.

What we now have is the possibility of a whole trench of politicians who have been on the other side, sniping on a regular basis about how the government has been run, governing and opposition are two very different things.

Lets just hope that "same crap different colour rosette" is not going to be the defining element.

[Colin C No.3]

Tory U-turns in response to changing conditions were dismissed as a weakness, weren't they? 

What's wrong with a bit of Starmer karma hitting the headlines now?

Problem is bb tory u-turns are all joined up making the tories go around in circles.

Here's a few variations they have achieved ......

ooooo888888888888800000000000000OOOOOOOOOOOO@@@@@@@@@@@@@@௹௹௹௹௹௹௹௹௹⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰

Anyone ?

I believe it’s an aboriginal saying….’Take only memories, leave only footprints’.

Or, it could be lines from the film Crocodile Dundee…

Woman reporter, “ That crocodile could have eaten me alive”.

Dundee, “Ah, I wouldn’t hold that against him. The same thought had crossed my mind a couple of times”.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP.

You need to do a bit of homework if you are going to bring Trussonomics into the equation. You are categorically wrong to compare what she did to what we should have done in 2010 for several reasons.

The biggest one is that in 2010, the key problem in the UK economy was the collapse of demand. The collapse was so severe that even cutting interest rates effectively to zero couldn't get demand going again. The classic solution in those cases is for government to borrow and spend TEMPORARILY until demand gets going again.

We didn't. We cut back Govt spending. Worse than that, most of the cuts were in capital investment. The result was several years of lost growth which we have never recovered, and appallingly low long term levels of capital investment, adding to our productivity problem.

In 2022, the key problem wasn't lack of demand. It was the huge increase in inflation due to the post COVID rebound and Putin's War. Interest rates were going up to keep a lid on demand. In that scenario, pro-cyclical tax reduction by the Govt is simply stupid.

The second major difference is that word I emphasised earlier. The trick in 2010 was to borrow and spend then, but only until the private sector got its mojo back. Then Govt spending should be reduced having done its job. The borrowing could then be paid back by tax income from a buoyant economy. Again, that is classic economics in such a situation.

Truss on the other hand proposed a PERMANENT or at least long term reduction in tax rates and claimed that would turbo charge the economy. The problem there is that there's neither any sensible economic theory, not any evidence that works when demand isn't a problem. Because, reducing taxes means more money in the economy sure, but that just pushes up prices. You get more inflation. So the BoE has to push interest rates up even higher to damp down the spending. But higher interest rates suppress the economy. So you don't get growth. Truss, idiot that she is, insisted that by some magic, the economy would grow and the growth would pay for the tax cuts. Unfortunately for her, those lily livered socialists in the Bond markets said, "We don't believe you". Which of course they were right to do, as it was b*llocks. So they said they wanted a moron premium added to the interest rate we paid them to borrow money to finance the idiotic tax cuts. Because our Govt was literally acting like a moron.

The two cases aren't remotely similar. To use a football analogy, in both cases the team was losing, but for different reasons. In 2010, the problem was a lack of forward quality and the right solution was to buy better strikers. In 2022, the problem was the defence, but Truss still bought strikers.

You, BFYP, are saying that because buying strikers in 2022 was a catastrophe, it wouldn't have worked in 2010.

You were badly, badly wrong in 2010. You're a smart lad and I'd have thought you'd have reflected on this over the past decade.

[SydneyRover]

BFYP.

Literally no-one says putting this right is going to be easy. We have been going in the wrong economic direction since the country (including you, remember?) rejected standard textbook economics in 2010 and chose the voodoo economics of Austerity.

Since then, our productivity has flat lined, predominantly because our capital investment has flat lined.

When you've been driving in totally the wrong direction for 14 years, then you change driver, do you expect to arrive where you want to go immediately? And do you berate the new driver for not getting you there on time?

Yeah increasing borrowing went really well for Liz Truss didn't it......

Are we saying we need to get public sector spending back to 2010 levels?  How much would that cost?  How is it being funded?

So far all we see from Labour in terms of policies is more of the same.  I have issues with quite a few government policies but I'm not seeing solutions from anywhere.

It sounds like getting excuses in for failures already to me!  To add to your analogy, I'd expect the other driver to get me there if they keep telling me they're so much better!  I fear as a country we're going to swap Mcsheffrey for Schofield!

Ideology always appears to come first aye pud, where your answer on the tax cuts you want?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

BFYP.

Literally no-one says putting this right is going to be easy. We have been going in the wrong economic direction since the country (including you, remember?) rejected standard textbook economics in 2010 and chose the voodoo economics of Austerity.

Since then, our productivity has flat lined, predominantly because our capital investment has flat lined.

When you've been driving in totally the wrong direction for 14 years, then you change driver, do you expect to arrive where you want to go immediately? And do you berate the new driver for not getting you there on time?

Yeah increasing borrowing went really well for Liz Truss didn't it......

Are we saying we need to get public sector spending back to 2010 levels?  How much would that cost?  How is it being funded?

So far all we see from Labour in terms of policies is more of the same.  I have issues with quite a few government policies but I'm not seeing solutions from anywhere.

It sounds like getting excuses in for failures already to me!  To add to your analogy, I'd expect the other driver to get me there if they keep telling me they're so much better!  I fear as a country we're going to swap Mcsheffrey for Schofield!

Ideology always appears to come first aye pud, where your answer on the tax cuts you want?

What's the question?  I do think the tax burden is too high now, I think they just need to bring back the personal allowance increase in line with inflation at this point.  I see them proposing a 1% ni cut and it fundamentally offers very little, bad choice.

Bst, I don't think we need to debate those economic things as we will never fundamentally agree and it's simply not black and white like some textbooks would have the world believe.

[SydneyRover]

As you well know it's timing pud, tax cuts when the country is screaming out for investment doesn't make any economic sense and no credible economist has come out in support as yet.

The only way hunt could try and popularise tax cuts would be to throw some red meat out and cut welfare, which would undermine any argument that the country needs to ramp up spending as those on welfare spend every penny as it is and wealthy people don't.

[drfchound]

As you well know it's timing pud, tax cuts when the country is screaming out for investment doesn't make any economic sense and no credible economist has come out in support as yet.

The only way hunt could try and popularise tax cuts would be to throw some red meat out and cut welfare, which would undermine any argument that the country needs to ramp up spending as those on welfare spend every penny as it is and wealthy people don't.

That has always been the case, probably always.

[wilts rover]

As you well know it's timing pud, tax cuts when the country is screaming out for investment doesn't make any economic sense and no credible economist has come out in support as yet.

The only way hunt could try and popularise tax cuts would be to throw some red meat out and cut welfare, which would undermine any argument that the country needs to ramp up spending as those on welfare spend every penny as it is and wealthy people don't.

There is no welfare left to cut - its all been done to the bare bones. All he has left that hasn't yet been cut is pensions - good luck on that one.

[SydneyRover]

Poor bones don't have to last as long nowadays wilts

''A new report from the UCL Institute of Health Equity (IHE) has confirmed that a million people in 90% of areas in England lived shorter lives than they should between 2011 and the start of the pandemic''

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2024/jan/one-million-people-england-living-shorter-lives-they-should#:~:text=A%20new%20report%20from%20the,the%20start%20of%20the%20pandemic.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP.

Literally no-one says putting this right is going to be easy. We have been going in the wrong economic direction since the country (including you, remember?) rejected standard textbook economics in 2010 and chose the voodoo economics of Austerity.

Since then, our productivity has flat lined, predominantly because our capital investment has flat lined.

When you've been driving in totally the wrong direction for 14 years, then you change driver, do you expect to arrive where you want to go immediately? And do you berate the new driver for not getting you there on time?

Yeah increasing borrowing went really well for Liz Truss didn't it......

Are we saying we need to get public sector spending back to 2010 levels?  How much would that cost?  How is it being funded?

So far all we see from Labour in terms of policies is more of the same.  I have issues with quite a few government policies but I'm not seeing solutions from anywhere.

It sounds like getting excuses in for failures already to me!  To add to your analogy, I'd expect the other driver to get me there if they keep telling me they're so much better!  I fear as a country we're going to swap Mcsheffrey for Schofield!

Ideology always appears to come first aye pud, where your answer on the tax cuts you want?

What's the question?  I do think the tax burden is too high now, I think they just need to bring back the personal allowance increase in line with inflation at this point.  I see them proposing a 1% ni cut and it fundamentally offers very little, bad choice.

Bst, I don't think we need to debate those economic things as we will never fundamentally agree and it's simply not black and white like some textbooks would have the world believe.

Then why start debating economic issues?

You're fundamentally wrong by the way. 2010 really WAS that black and white. People who understood the economics of a zero lower bound recession said loud and clear that Austerity would be a calamity and seriously harm us for many years.

People who didn't understand he economics insisted it was all about the debt and we had to get that down.

People who understood said that by attempting to get debt down in a zero lower bound slump was self defeating. You'd hammer growth AND the debt would grow.

What happened of course was that we hammered growth AND the debt grew.

Ignoring that, the single most awful and damaging economic mistake since the Great Depression, which has massively and permanently hit our wealth, and saying "you can't predict these things" when one side DID predict it is a quite astonishing position for an intelligent person to take. Like you're not interested in the facts.

[drfchound]

As you well know it's timing pud, tax cuts when the country is screaming out for investment doesn't make any economic sense and no credible economist has come out in support as yet.

The only way hunt could try and popularise tax cuts would be to throw some red meat out and cut welfare, which would undermine any argument that the country needs to ramp up spending as those on welfare spend every penny as it is and wealthy people don't.

There is no welfare left to cut - its all been done to the bare bones. All he has left that hasn't yet been cut is pensions - good luck on that one.

He daren’t cut pensions wilts.
Aren’t the pensioners the biggest proportion of their votes.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

As you well know it's timing pud, tax cuts when the country is screaming out for investment doesn't make any economic sense and no credible economist has come out in support as yet.

The only way hunt could try and popularise tax cuts would be to throw some red meat out and cut welfare, which would undermine any argument that the country needs to ramp up spending as those on welfare spend every penny as it is and wealthy people don't.

Actually that's incorrect, you could easily cut taxes (particularly in business) to force it towards investment in the economy.  That's something a number of countries successfully have used to attract investment.