Wonder how this lot would do against the current side?

[ravenrover]

Under what refereeing laws and standards  are we playing? A 70's ref would let the modern player get kicked to death no matter how good they are. A modern ref and the 70's lads would be getting early baths and maybe the game called off after they get down to , is it 6 or 7 players?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've pointed this out several times before but here goes again.

There's a video online of the 1962 WC final. Brazil, the best team in history with Djalmar Santos, Didi, Vava, Garrincha etc. Against one of the best sides from Europe, Czechoslovakia who had got to the semi of the previous Euros and were headed by Masopust, the European Footballer of the Year.

If you're going to comment on this subject, watch the first minute before you do.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=_YyeQj0TGyDCr_rf&t=61&v=2NJ_dSNj01E&feature=youtu.be&t=61

It's like a comedy piss take of what football was like in the old days. A top modern team would literally put 50 past them.

You cannot possibly argue that those players, given modern coaching, would be as good as DeBruyne or Haaland or Mbappe. They are literally playing a different sport.

That was the very best in the world, just 18 years before that 80/81 Rovers side, who were the 70th or so best side in one country.

Right, so you reckon the players are completely different nowadays? How is that?
Has evolution sped up exponentially in the past 50 years?
Best call the Royal society, they'll love to hear about your findings.

No. I think the GAME is utterly different and as a result the demands on players are unrecognisable from those in previous generations. As a result of THAT, it is frankly stupid to say that the SPECIFIC players from previous generations would be able to perform today if they were exposed to modern training and diets.

Of course, if you took a million kids with football talent from 1960 or 1980 and transposed them into the present day and trained, fed and taught them how modern kids are, you'd get equally good players. But it wouldn't be Pele or Moore or Beckenbauer or Snodin who'd make the grade. It'd be others who for various reasons were not suitable for football as it was set up in the 60s or 80s.

Are you actually saying Pele, moore, Beckenbauer or snodin wouldn't make the grade today? 

It's relative ! Those players, if they were born in 2000 would be playing at exactly the same level as they were back then.
Were not talking about a 24 Yr old Pele using a time machine to transport to the current time, which of course they would struggle.
If Pele was born in 2000 he'd still be the best.

Yep I'm saying that.

In the same way that the Red Baron wouldn't be a Eurofighter pilot today. Because the skill sets required for the two eras are incomparably different.

[Peebles Rover]

Well this bit of a fun thread turned out to be not so much fun!

[TonySoprano]

I've pointed this out several times before but here goes again.

There's a video online of the 1962 WC final. Brazil, the best team in history with Djalmar Santos, Didi, Vava, Garrincha etc. Against one of the best sides from Europe, Czechoslovakia who had got to the semi of the previous Euros and were headed by Masopust, the European Footballer of the Year.

If you're going to comment on this subject, watch the first minute before you do.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=_YyeQj0TGyDCr_rf&t=61&v=2NJ_dSNj01E&feature=youtu.be&t=61

It's like a comedy piss take of what football was like in the old days. A top modern team would literally put 50 past them.

You cannot possibly argue that those players, given modern coaching, would be as good as DeBruyne or Haaland or Mbappe. They are literally playing a different sport.

That was the very best in the world, just 18 years before that 80/81 Rovers side, who were the 70th or so best side in one country.

Right, so you reckon the players are completely different nowadays? How is that?
Has evolution sped up exponentially in the past 50 years?
Best call the Royal society, they'll love to hear about your findings.

No. I think the GAME is utterly different and as a result the demands on players are unrecognisable from those in previous generations. As a result of THAT, it is frankly stupid to say that the SPECIFIC players from previous generations would be able to perform today if they were exposed to modern training and diets.

Of course, if you took a million kids with football talent from 1960 or 1980 and transposed them into the present day and trained, fed and taught them how modern kids are, you'd get equally good players. But it wouldn't be Pele or Moore or Beckenbauer or Snodin who'd make the grade. It'd be others who for various reasons were not suitable for football as it was set up in the 60s or 80s.

Are you actually saying Pele, moore, Beckenbauer or snodin wouldn't make the grade today? 

It's relative ! Those players, if they were born in 2000 would be playing at exactly the same level as they were back then.
Were not talking about a 24 Yr old Pele using a time machine to transport to the current time, which of course they would struggle.
If Pele was born in 2000 he'd still be the best.

Yep I'm saying that.

In the same way that the Red Baron wouldn't be a Eurofighter pilot today. Because the skill sets required for the two eras are incomparably different.

Wow, well I'm out.
Was it Mark twain who said don't argue with idiots, they will just bring you down and beat you with experience ?

I'll heed his advice. 

[drfchound]

I've pointed this out several times before but here goes again.

There's a video online of the 1962 WC final. Brazil, the best team in history with Djalmar Santos, Didi, Vava, Garrincha etc. Against one of the best sides from Europe, Czechoslovakia who had got to the semi of the previous Euros and were headed by Masopust, the European Footballer of the Year.

If you're going to comment on this subject, watch the first minute before you do.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=_YyeQj0TGyDCr_rf&t=61&v=2NJ_dSNj01E&feature=youtu.be&t=61

It's like a comedy piss take of what football was like in the old days. A top modern team would literally put 50 past them.

You cannot possibly argue that those players, given modern coaching, would be as good as DeBruyne or Haaland or Mbappe. They are literally playing a different sport.

That was the very best in the world, just 18 years before that 80/81 Rovers side, who were the 70th or so best side in one country.

Right, so you reckon the players are completely different nowadays? How is that?
Has evolution sped up exponentially in the past 50 years?
Best call the Royal society, they'll love to hear about your findings.

No. I think the GAME is utterly different and as a result the demands on players are unrecognisable from those in previous generations. As a result of THAT, it is frankly stupid to say that the SPECIFIC players from previous generations would be able to perform today if they were exposed to modern training and diets.

Of course, if you took a million kids with football talent from 1960 or 1980 and transposed them into the present day and trained, fed and taught them how modern kids are, you'd get equally good players. But it wouldn't be Pele or Moore or Beckenbauer or Snodin who'd make the grade. It'd be others who for various reasons were not suitable for football as it was set up in the 60s or 80s.

Are you actually saying Pele, moore, Beckenbauer or snodin wouldn't make the grade today? 

It's relative ! Those players, if they were born in 2000 would be playing at exactly the same level as they were back then.
Were not talking about a 24 Yr old Pele using a time machine to transport to the current time, which of course they would struggle.
If Pele was born in 2000 he'd still be the best.

Of course it is impossible to say for sure but to categorically say none of those four players wouldn’t make the grade in the modern game if they had been born in 2000 is some statement.

[scawsby steve]

Matty Craig is better than Pele.

Wow, just wow.

[Nudga]

Paul Gasgoine would absolutely dominate world football if he was born in 2000 and had a 24/7 shrink.

[Sammy Chung was King]

Class would be class whichever generation they played in or moved to. The players back then may have had bad habits, as do today’s players, mentally some of the players were stronger than the current generation in some aspects. Whereas some of this generation maybe deal with the publicity side better than those in the past would have done. It evens itself out.

Stanley Matthews with lighter boots even better conditioning than he himself made sure he had. Would have been worth a fortune in today’s game. The real class players would do it in any era.

[DonnyNoel]

I've always found this such a divisive argument because people can't often differentiate between better (in absolute terms) and greater.

Better allows for the growth and improvement of the game. The Cryuff turn for example. groudbreaking in the 70's, basic playground skills in the 90's. It also muddies the waters when you try and compare decades due to training/diets/coaching etc. I'm sure a lot would disagree with me when I say Raheem Sterling would dominate a lot of 70's players, but they'd be wrong to confuse strength with toughness.

"Greatness" is where the debate kicks in as thats where you have to try and allow for these factors. Best vs Hoddle vs Gascoigne vs Henry - pitch quality/lenient refs/slow defenders

[BillyStubbsTears]

Good post DN.

For me, "Greatness" is ranked by how someone was compared to the standards of their time.

So yes, of course Pele, Moore, Beckenbauer and (by our standards) Snodin were true Greats. Nobody would ever argue otherwise.

But the demands of the modern game are now utterly different from what they were.

The Greats of today cover twice the distance that players did in Pele's time. AND play to a highly ordered and disciplined system. AND exhibit individual skills far, far more impressive than Pele ever did.

My contention is that it stretches credibility to think that the specific individual greats of yesteryear could double the aerobic effort required, AND perform as well as they did back then when playing at a higher pace AND improve their skills beyond recognition AND perform those skills in the organised game of today.

I'm not saying no-one from those generations could. But it would have likely been other people, ones with the aptitude to tick all those boxes.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Specific to English football, there's also a no-brainer argument why a good Tier 4 side is today is far above a good Tier 4 side from 40-50 years ago.

A side at the top of Tier 4 is roughly the 70th best in England. Assuming each club has a first team squad of say 28-30, that means the good Tier 4 side has players who are roughly the 2000th best in the country (on average...some will be a bit better, some a bit worse).

50 years ago, nearly every player in the English league was from the British Isles.

So, 50 years ago, the good Tier 4 side had roughly the 2000th best British and Irish players on its books.

Today, there are over 400 players in the PL alone who are not from the British Isles. I don't know how many in other divisions, but I'd guess another 5-600.

In which case, the good Tier 4 side of today has "home" players who are about the 1000th best in the British Isles.

[i_ateallthepies]

40/50 years ago the starting eleven usually played the full 90 minutes and most would play every game of the season.  There was one sub allowed and was often not used.  The players of that era were required to play this way and would have had to pace themselves to be able to do it.

[idler2]

40/50 years ago the starting eleven usually played the full 90 minutes and most would play every game of the season.  There was one sub allowed and was often not used.  The players of that era were required to play this way and would have had to pace themselves to be able to do it.

Apart fro the pace of the game now the thing that impresses me most is the skill most players possess. We now see defenders pinging 50yard balls and their first touch in a lot of cases is as good or better as the midfielders back in the day. It is a far cry from the lump it forward brigade. Anybody that saw Dave Blakey play centre half for Chesterfield back in the late 50s early 60s will know what I mean.

[i_ateallthepies]

Agree, Idler but today's players are 'pinging' a ball that weight far less than the old caseys of 50 years ago.

[idler2]

Agree, Idler but today's players are 'pinging' a ball that weight far less than the old caseys of 50 years ago.

That is true but I’m not sure that too many defenders tried to hone the attacking side of the game.
A lot of today’s defenders can kill a ball in an instant and then play a decent pass even at speed.
Very few defenders had that skill years ago.

[drfchound]

But of course no one can say that the likes of Moore and Beckenbauer couldn’t have been doing the same thing had they been born in 2000.
It is all just opinion and speculation.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The demands on defenders and goalkeepers in the modern game are the biggest difference from the old days.


A few years ago, I watched a YouTube video of the England-West Germany match from Italia 90.

A minute in, there's a through ball for Lineker. Kohler gets there first, but he's 20 yards out, running towards his own goal with Lineker neck and neck with him. Illgner, the keeper is crazily running towards them, rather than making space for himself to receive a back pass and play it out. I'm out of my seat thinking "I don't remember this chance".

Kohler lays the ball back to Illgner and Lineker's no more than 3 yards from him and bearing down. The keeper's been put in a dreadful position.


...and Illgner just drops on the ball and pulls it to his chest.

I'd clean forgotten how easily defenders and keepers had it when they'd got the Get Out Of Jail card of being able to pick up a back pass.

Banning that is the single best change in the Laws of the game in my lifetime. And it's meant that defenders and keepers now have to be proper footballers in a way that wasn't remotely on the agenda 35 years ago.

[Bills view]

Love discussions like this as we all have views.

I just like remembering how players compared to those at the time. I used to think Glynn Snodin was the best free-kick taker I had ever seen. Even that would be different now.

Interesting to know how far back in time people think you can compare like for like. 

[DonnyNoel]

40/50 years ago the starting eleven usually played the full 90 minutes and most would play every game of the season.  There was one sub allowed and was often not used.  The players of that era were required to play this way and would have had to pace themselves to be able to do it.

Yep I can't remember the exact stat, but didn't Villa win the league in the early 80's using only 14 players?

[DonnyNoel]

The demands on defenders and goalkeepers in the modern game are the biggest difference from the old days.


A few years ago, I watched a YouTube video of the England-West Germany match from Italia 90.

A minute in, there's a through ball for Lineker. Kohler gets there first, but he's 20 yards out, running towards his own goal with Lineker neck and neck with him. Illgner, the keeper is crazily running towards them, rather than making space for himself to receive a back pass and play it out. I'm out of my seat thinking "I don't remember this chance".

Kohler lays the ball back to Illgner and Lineker's no more than 3 yards from him and bearing down. The keeper's been put in a dreadful position.


...and Illgner just drops on the ball and pulls it to his chest.

I'd clean forgotten how easily defenders and keepers had it when they'd got the Get Out Of Jail card of being able to pick up a back pass.

Banning that is the single best change in the Laws of the game in my lifetime. And it's meant that defenders and keepers now have to be proper footballers in a way that wasn't remotely on the agenda 35 years ago.

Yep - you only have to look at how Des Walker went from world class to liability almost overnight when it came in. And for all the love of Liverpool's style in the 80's, a lot of it was based on being able to pass back then press the resulting kick in the opponents half.