Let's talk about the Port Vale EFL cup game

[Fal]

Yeboah done a Faal?

Think this pretty much confirms he’s going back in January

[adamtherover]

Smallest crowd I've ever seen 20 mins before KO?

[Metalmicky]

Team news....?

[West Stand Willy]

No Yeboha on the team sheet? Maybe that confirms he won’t be here in the new year.

[andyst79]

What does Westbrook need to do to get a game?

Coming back from injury, not fully match fit I presume? I mentioned this on another thread. Can anybody else confirm this is the case?

[drfchound]

Smallest crowd I've ever seen 20 mins before KO?

Adam, just before kick off the sky commentator said “it looks to be a decent crowd in this evening”.
Mind you, he also said at half time “let’s look at the half time results”.

[ncRover]

Giving Port Vale more games so the regular wheels falling off the bus for Darren Moore happens a bit earlier.
Smart move.

[Usher wide.]

We didn’t deserve that.

92nd minute the ball drops to one of theirs & he gets a good connection.

I thought we were the better & most dominant side gouging forwards & calm in defence.

Hit the woodwork twice, Lawlor made a good save in the first half which really up until the goal was their only shot on target that i can recall.

Ah well, that’s football i guess.

Some ‘fringe players’ did their ‘cause’ no harm tonight. I thought Josh Emmanuel was a threat going forward all game & so quick to recover defensively.

Fleming was exactly the same on the other side of the pitch, winning headers, getting forward & delivered some good crosses i hope he’s offered a contract (yes i know we’re ‘blessed’ with players in that position)  come the end of the season if he’s left without a club.

Gibson was excellent on the wide right, cutting in to shoot or getting a cross into the box.

Clifton had a decent game as dare i say it did Close but they’re nowhere near Bailey.

Sbarra’s an enigma to me. At 5’4” he has no right to be an effective midfield player but he put himself about tonight, showed for the ball & played some good passes. He’s not however & never will be in the same class as a Tommy Rowe.

So until January & we have ‘a jolly in Hull’, we can as they say ‘now concentrate on the league’.

[scawsby steve]

Was that the smallest crowd of the season? There looked to be hardly anyone there on Sky.

I doubt it was much above 1000.

[ForsolongaRover]

Usher: I think you put up a rosey picture and whilst you might say that no one did anything seriously wrong, they were not good enough to really threaten.

Considering how much attacking we did, there was not much variation in the approach so it is predictable for the opposing defence. We don’t seem to be able to break away so there is always a defender confronting the man with the ball.

There is little ingenuity and even when the first choice palyers came on the quality did not improve.

TSL is a much more active presence in the goal area. h
His long-distance clearances offer opportunities to break away without being confronted with a blanket defence.  Beinmore mobile and alert he might well have made a better effort to keep out their goal. Unlike Lawlor on this occasion he rarely gestures at the defence as though letting on goals is not his job!

[ForsolongaRover]

…didn’t read that through properly, but I hope you get the drift.

[scawsby steve]

Usher: I think you put up a rosey picture and whilst you might say that no one did anything seriously wrong, they were not good enough to really threaten.

Considering how much attacking we did, there was not much variation in the approach so it is predictable for the opposing defence. We don’t seem to be able to break away so there is always a defender confronting the man with the ball.

There is little ingenuity and even when the first choice palyers came on the quality did not improve.

TSL is a much more active presence in the goal area. h
His long-distance clearances offer opportunities to break away without being confronted with a blanket defence.  Beinmore mobile and alert he might well have made a better effort to keep out their goal. Unlike Lawlor on this occasion he rarely gestures at the defence as though letting on goals is not his job!

FR, you're doing it again. We can't score goals for toffee, and yet the only individual you're blaming is Lawlor.

[Dutch Uncle]

Was that the smallest crowd of the season? There looked to be hardly anyone there on Sky.

I doubt it was much above 1000.

1396 - lowest home crowd although there were fewer at Salford in our League Cup tie

[Ryaldinhio]

We didn’t deserve that.

92nd minute the ball drops to one of theirs & he gets a good connection.

I thought we were the better & most dominant side gouging forwards & calm in defence.

Hit the woodwork twice, Lawlor made a good save in the first half which really up until the goal was their only shot on target that i can recall.

Ah well, that’s football i guess.

Some ‘fringe players’ did their ‘cause’ no harm tonight. I thought Josh Emmanuel was a threat going forward all game & so quick to recover defensively.

Fleming was exactly the same on the other side of the pitch, winning headers, getting forward & delivered some good crosses i hope he’s offered a contract (yes i know we’re ‘blessed’ with players in that position)  come the end of the season if he’s left without a club.

Gibson was excellent on the wide right, cutting in to shoot or getting a cross into the box.

Clifton had a decent game as dare i say it did Close but they’re nowhere near Bailey.

Sbarra’s an enigma to me. At 5’4” he has no right to be an effective midfield player but he put himself about tonight, showed for the ball & played some good passes. He’s not however & never will be in the same class as a Tommy Rowe.

So until January & we have ‘a jolly in Hull’, we can as they say ‘now concentrate on the league’.

Agree with most of that Usher

Thought over the 90 we were the better team

JE had a great game at RB

BF played well at LB

Gibson still flatters to deceive, tonight in particular didn't get his head up enough for me and get a cross in. People were getting on his back towards the end about being lazy but I think he was just knackered.

Sbarra played really well IMO

Dont think Lawlor did much wrong so doesn't deserve stick.

My main concern was we seemed to weaken the midfield when we put Bailey and Westbrook on.

Over all a good run out, dominated again with no cutting edge.....seems to be a recurring theme.

[steve@dcfd]

Grant should have put Bailey as the deep
Lying midfielder and let Westbrooke go forward on leave on the bench and leave Clifton on

[Usher wide.]

…didn’t read that through properly, but I hope you get the drift.

Yep.

I think one goal was always going to win this game.

We made eight changes from the Cheltenham game yet we were still playing very much on the front foot. The players won 90% of their ‘individual’ battles & as i said, one or two gave Grant food for thought with their performances.

A couple of questions for you forsolong.

Did Anderson & McGrath look solid both defensively & in bringing the ball out?

Were Fleming & Emmanuel as effective defensively & when attacking down the flanks tonight as Maxwell, Senior, Nixon or Sterry?

Did we not ‘create’ enough chances to have (deservedly imo) won the game tonight not forgetting we hit the woodwork twice.

Did we ultimately have more chances on goal than Port Vale?

I take your point about converting those chances which for whatever reason we have granted, failed to do so too regularly however, getting back to tonight’s game I believe we saw the strength in depth of the squad we have, under GM, brought together this season.

It’s all about perceptions & opinions so let me just say I’m happy on this occasion to agree to disagree.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Lots for us still to be happy about. But the lack of scoring goals from what we create is a huge problem. Is it the players on the end of the passes or the passes themselves?  Worrying but still lots to be positive about if we solve it.

[danumdon]

Another game that we created enough chances to win, and didn't. If we get the performances right the results will come. GM will have learnt something from this game about his squad players, a couple enhanced their claims tonight in Emmanuele and Flemming, some others really need to find some form.

The best thing we can say about tonight, its done and over with, we don't have it as a distraction going forwards and we can now concentrate on winning the league. We have a squad to do it, we just need the rub of the green to get us going again. GM knows what he needs and requires from this squad, with a couple of astute signing in Jan we need to capitalise.

[tommy toes]

I thought we lost control of the midfield when Close was taken off.
Most things went through him across the centre and he linked up well with those further forward.

[ForsolongaRover]

Usher: I think you put up a rosey picture and whilst you might say that no one did anything seriously wrong, they were not good enough to really threaten.

Considering how much attacking we did, there was not much variation in the approach so it is predictable for the opposing defence. We don’t seem to be able to break away so there is always a defender confronting the man with the ball.

There is little ingenuity and even when the first choice palyers came on the quality did not improve.

TSL is a much more active presence in the goal area. h
His long-distance clearances offer opportunities to break away without being confronted with a blanket defence.  Beinmore mobile and alert he might well have made a better effort to keep out their goal. Unlike Lawlor on this occasion he rarely gestures at the defence as though letting on goals is not his job!

FR, you're doing it again. We can't score goals for toffee, and yet the only individual you're blaming is Lawlor.

I did not say that really; a lot of them could have done better and I was contrasting TSL’s usual contribution to the team effort as compared with Lawlor’s.  One goal should not have been the difference between winning and losing based on the extent to which we were in attacking positions.

[steve@dcfd]

Although we played ok and should have scored at least one goal our best players on the pitch were defenders two fullbacks and centre halves.
Midfield was ok Clifton doing all the graft and Close picking up the ball deep and distributing.
Kelly was poor driving forward and loosing the ball passing not good enough and easily knocked off the ball. The wide players were poor whether it was Gibson or Sbarra neither put in meaningful consistent good crosses. Were easily overpowered and loss the ball.
The mid field was weaken with substitutes allowing Bailey to go forward and have Westbrooke deep was wrong just like Sbarra he runs along side of players instead of tackling.
Overall it’s a game we should have won but our lack of goals and creativity plus not good enough in midfield especially after the substitutions.

[Donnywolf]

For me just really disappointing night , match , result

[Campsall rover]

Almost all the attendances in the Vertu Cup were abysmal.
A cold night not long before Christmas in a secondary competition against a fellow League 2 team isn’t going to get many off their couches.

As for the game apart from the first 7 mins and the last 3 mins we were the better team by quite some margin.

Our problem is once again our end product. We simply are not clinical enough. Trying to score the perfect goal too often for me.
We need to get the ball in the box quicker. Too many touches are being made.
Gibson frustrates me so much. He has considerable ability but over plays time after time.
Why Grant doesn’t play him on the right for at least 50% of the time is a mystery to me.
Same with Molly get him on the left and get down the line on their natural foot crossing from near the by line. Joe Ironside might just get some decent service. How many times does he receive the ball in and around the penalty spot with his back to goal with no opportunity to get a shot off.

Good performances from all the players last night.
The back 4 were outstanding, Tom thought he was Beckenbaur.
Ben Close looked rusty but otherwise everyone put a shift in and if we had won 3-0 it would not have flattered us.
We got caught out at the death going for the winner.

This could be a blessing in disguise being one distraction less.
2007 it affected our league performance quite considerably in Feb & March.

We will just have to settle for the League title and FA Cup winners medals this season.      

[Pancho Regan]

Several posters on the Lucky Pint thread last night were inferring that Grant has weakened our squad compared to last season, with colincramb for example suggesting that:

Sbarra is not as good as Biggins
Kelly nowhere near as good as Craig
Gibson not as good as Adelakun (he hasn't done much this season has he?)
TSL not as good as TLT

I think it's worth reminding ourselves that these were not conscious choices by Grant.

He offered contracts to Adelakun and Biggins; both turned them down, feeling they could do better than stay with Rovers;
Craig's parent club wanted him to have a loan at a club in a higher League;
TLT not available to us either

Rowe was also mentioned, but leaving emotion aside I don't think Grant can be criticised for not offering Tommy another contract.

So Grant had to go back to the drawing board in all these cases.

In my opinion, in challenging circumstances bearing in mind the above, Grant has assembled a squad which is stronger than the one we had last season.

[Ian Nimmo]

A couple of the players Emmanuel and Fleming played well to be considered for inclusion in the match day squad, however in my view Sabarra and particularly Gibson didn’t.
I thought Gibson was poor again.
In general yes we had good possession and got forward, but for me it’s the same problem that we don,t get forward quick enough. Playing from the back is not the problem, it’s by the time we get to the half way line the opposition generally have all players behind the ball.
We then end up with our forwards coming too deep with their backs to goal.
It’s been said my many posts before, we are too predictable particularly at home

[i_ateallthepies]

A couple of the players Emmanuel and Fleming played well to be considered for inclusion in the match day squad, however in my view Sabarra and particularly Gibson didn’t.
I thought Gibson was poor again.
In general yes we had good possession and got forward, but for me it’s the same problem that we don,t get forward quick enough. Playing from the back is not the problem, it’s by the time we get to the half way line the opposition generally have all players behind the ball.
We then end up with our forwards coming too deep with their backs to goal.
It’s been said my many posts before, we are too predictable particularly at home

Completely agree, there were numerous times in last night's game where keeper or defence got the ball forward quickly with half the PV team in our box and as soon as our ball carrier got past halfway and a defender approached he turned around and passed it back instead of either taking the man on or looking to pass it to one of the forward players.  Then by the time we get the ball forward the PV defence is back and set.

[steve@dcfd]

Quote
Rowe was also mentioned, but leaving emotion aside I don't think Grant can be criticised for not offering Tommy another contract.

It was me who mentioned Tommy to a specific answer
When it was said Sbarra was fringe player every team needs one. We had Biggins and Rowe who where fringe players and a lot better than Sbarra and I appreciate we only saw the best of Biggins in the games from February. But the point stand in our games since the start of the season when selected Sbarra as been anonymous in most games

[danumdon]

I don't know if its implied but we have this awful and wasteful trait of whenever a player is on the ball.
The first choice in the thought process is always to turn back and look for the easy lay off backwards, it happens in every game, we have a break from defence and the player bringing the ball forward gets towards the opposition defence and then turns 180° and lays the ball backwards, it happens so often it just kills every move we make stone dead. Last night i counted four occasions where we had broken forward, two or three passes later the ball is back with the our keeper?

I'm well aware of the need to protect possession and deny the opposition the ball, sometimes you need to go back to reset and attack again but it always looks in our case that the final through balls, the ones the split the defence and put a forward running player through into space and onto goal just don't happen for us, the forward play is slow, deliberate and over cautious in my opinion, id rather see us try to move the ball forward or thread a through ball and loose possession than not try.

Im sure GM is asking the players to be braver in their outlook and play, some have already commented on players like Mols and Gibson loosing possession trying something, its this unpredictability that needs to be attempted for us to achieve, if we don't try and just keep playing percentage football then we will undoubtedly miss out again.

We need brave players to have the confidence to go alongside the skill element, Adulaken demonstrated this perfectly last season, it got Mols and a few others playing at a higher and better tempo, the confidence throughout the squad soared and the overall improvement was massive.

This side have the ability, we just need to see them being brave, having a go and not always looking to play the safe option, our season depends on this.

[jmt23]

I think people need to stop judging TSL against TLT. TSL is a great keeper and hasn’t done a thing wrong yet.

I’m not sure we need another striker or winger, I think we are good enough(more than) in that area. Midfield is the issue for me.

I think we need to find a way to get Close or Westbrooke in the team for possession control, and rotate the others, but I’m not 100% sure on any of them.

[Pancho Regan]

I don't know if its implied but we have this awful and wasteful trait of whenever a player is on the ball.
The first choice in the thought process is always to turn back and look for the easy lay off backwards, it happens in every game, we have a break from defence and the player bringing the ball forward gets towards the opposition defence and then turns 180° and lays the ball backwards, it happens so often it just kills every move we make stone dead. Last night i counted four occasions where we had broken forward, two or three passes later the ball is back with the our keeper?

I'm well aware of the need to protect possession and deny the opposition the ball, sometimes you need to go back to reset and attack again but it always looks in our case that the final through balls, the ones the split the defence and put a forward running player through into space and onto goal just don't happen for us, the forward play is slow, deliberate and over cautious in my opinion, id rather see us try to move the ball forward or thread a through ball and loose possession than not try.

Im sure GM is asking the players to be braver in their outlook and play, some have already commented on players like Mols and Gibson loosing possession trying something, its this unpredictability that needs to be attempted for us to achieve, if we don't try and just keep playing percentage football then we will undoubtedly miss out again.

We need brave players to have the confidence to go alongside the skill element, Adulaken demonstrated this perfectly last season, it got Mols and a few others playing at a higher and better tempo, the confidence throughout the squad soared and the overall improvement was massive.

This side have the ability, we just need to see them being brave, having a go and not always looking to play the safe option, our season depends on this.

Very good points and well made there danumdon.