Abysmal, again.

[Prez]

Thought I might log on here today and post something calm, but no, still annoyed about yesterday.

You won’t find many bigger GM fans than me. Go through my posts from the first half of last season and I defended him to the hilt on here when he was getting the finger pointed at him for how we were doing. But I have to admit that the current state of affairs is turning into a huge disappointment.

He said before the season that the aim was the title (we the fans didn’t set that expectation, he did) and we are miles off it! We’re still in an OK position in the league, but if we don’t solve the major issues in the team we won’t be for much longer and will be needing another amazing run to make up ground.

He’s got all his own players now and we look increasingly like a team that hasn’t got a clue, struggles to do the basics of the game, and finds it a long painful struggle to create a sufficient quantity of decent chances in a game.

This is not a new problem. This has been going on since late September/early October (at home primarily). We’ve had three months to find ways around it but things don’t seem to be improving. OK, we comfortably beat Tranmere at home, but they are absolute dogger. We beat Fleetwood who are average but it was far from convincing and we suffered the same issues described above.

Time and time again, we come up against teams who observe how we try to play, set traps for us, and more often than not we fall into them. How have we failed to adapt to this when it’s been going on for months?

People saying Port Vale didn’t play well. They didn’t need to! They knew that they could let our defence and midfield have the ball and that they’d do very little with it, and then when they inevitably caught us out, any shot on target would have a fair chance of going in. It was very deliberate. That performance from us wasn’t the worst we’ve seen in isolation, but in context it was yet another game where we were outmanoeuvred by the opposition and it looked painful watching us try to create chances.

Recruitment - we have about 30 players on the books but very few have any genuine pace. The only central midfielder with any quality on the ball can’t play more than 20 games a season and has been frozen out (oh and was given a new deal in the summer. The goalkeeper (Tin Hat firmly on) basically lets in the majority of shots that go on target, and the alternatives in the squad are no better. Clifton is as bang average as Biggins but without the screamers. Broadbent might have some ability but is majorly hindered by not being able to move and is prone to lapses in concentration like we saw at Wimbledon and against Fleetwood. Wood was given a new deal but is nowhere to be seen. Close was given a new deal when he probably shouldn’t have been. Sbarra is a mystery. Yeboah was useless. Kelly is clearly talented but isn’t going to grab a game by the scruff of the neck. Gibson is either not at it most of the time, or doesn’t fit into the team. How many players we brought in have actually improved us? I’d say only Sharp has delivered really. It’s ended up as a right old mish mash.

Usually I wouldn’t be one to “expect” or “demand” promotion, but we’ve basically been told we should do. The manager has repeated it multiple times. He’s been given great backing by the chairman to get this right and we are performing below the expectation that has been set. Meanwhile Walsall are running away with it with some smart recruitment from non-league and the loan market, and by having a settled team and a recognisable style of play that suits their players and is consistent.

Let’s hope for some good January recruitment (both in and out) and an improvement in performances soon. Without that we are going to end up in mid table.

Superb post agree 100%

[DonnyOsmond]

https://theanalyst.com/eu/competition/english-league-two/table

Top of the expected table.

[dickos1]

Just the league table

Cutting edge analysis.

So when we were lower mid table with really good form last season you were bringing everyone down to earth by saying “look at the league table”?

Well it is all that matters, picking a sample of form to back an argument doesn’t mean much.

I’d argue 20 games (just shy of half a season) is a pretty reasonable sample. Teams around pick up points in their games in hand and we won’t be far off 12th, will we.

It’s not form though is it?
Form is 3/4 games not 20.
If you’re going off 20 you may aswell just use the league table which is 25, people are just taking those 5 games off to back a negative argument

So, if 3/4 games is form then 12th in 20 games must mean a team not good enough to be Champions or even win the playoffs.

What does 6th from 25 games mean then? Or 2nd from 24 games?

[NickDRFC]

Thought I might log on here today and post something calm, but no, still annoyed about yesterday.

You won’t find many bigger GM fans than me. Go through my posts from the first half of last season and I defended him to the hilt on here when he was getting the finger pointed at him for how we were doing. But I have to admit that the current state of affairs is turning into a huge disappointment.

He said before the season that the aim was the title (we the fans didn’t set that expectation, he did) and we are miles off it! We’re still in an OK position in the league, but if we don’t solve the major issues in the team we won’t be for much longer and will be needing another amazing run to make up ground.

He’s got all his own players now and we look increasingly like a team that hasn’t got a clue, struggles to do the basics of the game, and finds it a long painful struggle to create a sufficient quantity of decent chances in a game.

This is not a new problem. This has been going on since late September/early October (at home primarily). We’ve had three months to find ways around it but things don’t seem to be improving. OK, we comfortably beat Tranmere at home, but they are absolute dogger. We beat Fleetwood who are average but it was far from convincing and we suffered the same issues described above.

Time and time again, we come up against teams who observe how we try to play, set traps for us, and more often than not we fall into them. How have we failed to adapt to this when it’s been going on for months?

People saying Port Vale didn’t play well. They didn’t need to! They knew that they could let our defence and midfield have the ball and that they’d do very little with it, and then when they inevitably caught us out, any shot on target would have a fair chance of going in. It was very deliberate. That performance from us wasn’t the worst we’ve seen in isolation, but in context it was yet another game where we were outmanoeuvred by the opposition and it looked painful watching us try to create chances.

Recruitment - we have about 30 players on the books but very few have any genuine pace. The only central midfielder with any quality on the ball can’t play more than 20 games a season and has been frozen out (oh and was given a new deal in the summer. The goalkeeper (Tin Hat firmly on) basically lets in the majority of shots that go on target, and the alternatives in the squad are no better. Clifton is as bang average as Biggins but without the screamers. Broadbent might have some ability but is majorly hindered by not being able to move and is prone to lapses in concentration like we saw at Wimbledon and against Fleetwood. Wood was given a new deal but is nowhere to be seen. Close was given a new deal when he probably shouldn’t have been. Sbarra is a mystery. Yeboah was useless. Kelly is clearly talented but isn’t going to grab a game by the scruff of the neck. Gibson is either not at it most of the time, or doesn’t fit into the team. How many players we brought in have actually improved us? I’d say only Sharp has delivered really. It’s ended up as a right old mish mash.

Usually I wouldn’t be one to “expect” or “demand” promotion, but we’ve basically been told we should do. The manager has repeated it multiple times. He’s been given great backing by the chairman to get this right and we are performing below the expectation that has been set. Meanwhile Walsall are running away with it with some smart recruitment from non-league and the loan market, and by having a settled team and a recognisable style of play that suits their players and is consistent.

Let’s hope for some good January recruitment (both in and out) and an improvement in performances soon. Without that we are going to end up in mid table.

Yeah but none of this matters because we were 2nd last week…

Excellent post, think it sums up in one place and very articulately a lot of the concerns that have been raised recently.

[dickos1]

https://theanalyst.com/eu/competition/english-league-two/table

Top of the expected table.

What does that say about all our apparent poor stats then?

[DonnyOsmond]

https://theanalyst.com/eu/competition/english-league-two/table

Top of the expected table.

What does that say about all our apparent poor stats then?

What do you think it says dickos? And how do you get our actual performance to become inline with our expected performance?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Thought I might log on here today and post something calm, but no, still annoyed about yesterday.

You won’t find many bigger GM fans than me. Go through my posts from the first half of last season and I defended him to the hilt on here when he was getting the finger pointed at him for how we were doing. But I have to admit that the current state of affairs is turning into a huge disappointment.

He said before the season that the aim was the title (we the fans didn’t set that expectation, he did) and we are miles off it! We’re still in an OK position in the league, but if we don’t solve the major issues in the team we won’t be for much longer and will be needing another amazing run to make up ground.

He’s got all his own players now and we look increasingly like a team that hasn’t got a clue, struggles to do the basics of the game, and finds it a long painful struggle to create a sufficient quantity of decent chances in a game.

This is not a new problem. This has been going on since late September/early October (at home primarily). We’ve had three months to find ways around it but things don’t seem to be improving. OK, we comfortably beat Tranmere at home, but they are absolute dogger. We beat Fleetwood who are average but it was far from convincing and we suffered the same issues described above.

Time and time again, we come up against teams who observe how we try to play, set traps for us, and more often than not we fall into them. How have we failed to adapt to this when it’s been going on for months?

People saying Port Vale didn’t play well. They didn’t need to! They knew that they could let our defence and midfield have the ball and that they’d do very little with it, and then when they inevitably caught us out, any shot on target would have a fair chance of going in. It was very deliberate. That performance from us wasn’t the worst we’ve seen in isolation, but in context it was yet another game where we were outmanoeuvred by the opposition and it looked painful watching us try to create chances.

Recruitment - we have about 30 players on the books but very few have any genuine pace. The only central midfielder with any quality on the ball can’t play more than 20 games a season and has been frozen out (oh and was given a new deal in the summer. The goalkeeper (Tin Hat firmly on) basically lets in the majority of shots that go on target, and the alternatives in the squad are no better. Clifton is as bang average as Biggins but without the screamers. Broadbent might have some ability but is majorly hindered by not being able to move and is prone to lapses in concentration like we saw at Wimbledon and against Fleetwood. Wood was given a new deal but is nowhere to be seen. Close was given a new deal when he probably shouldn’t have been. Sbarra is a mystery. Yeboah was useless. Kelly is clearly talented but isn’t going to grab a game by the scruff of the neck. Gibson is either not at it most of the time, or doesn’t fit into the team. How many players we brought in have actually improved us? I’d say only Sharp has delivered really. It’s ended up as a right old mish mash.

Usually I wouldn’t be one to “expect” or “demand” promotion, but we’ve basically been told we should do. The manager has repeated it multiple times. He’s been given great backing by the chairman to get this right and we are performing below the expectation that has been set. Meanwhile Walsall are running away with it with some smart recruitment from non-league and the loan market, and by having a settled team and a recognisable style of play that suits their players and is consistent.

Let’s hope for some good January recruitment (both in and out) and an improvement in performances soon. Without that we are going to end up in mid table.

Superb post. Nail. Head. Every point.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Just the league table

Cutting edge analysis.

So when we were lower mid table with really good form last season you were bringing everyone down to earth by saying “look at the league table”?

Well it is all that matters, picking a sample of form to back an argument doesn’t mean much.

I’d argue 20 games (just shy of half a season) is a pretty reasonable sample. Teams around pick up points in their games in hand and we won’t be far off 12th, will we.

It’s not form though is it?
Form is 3/4 games not 20.
If you’re going off 20 you may aswell just use the league table which is 25, people are just taking those 5 games off to back a negative argument

So, if 3/4 games is form then 12th in 20 games must mean a team not good enough to be Champions or even win the playoffs.

What does 6th from 25 games mean then? Or 2nd from 24 games?

Going on points per game, we weren't 2nd after 24 games and we're not 6th now.

The very real worry is that another 3-4 games continuing at our current rate of picking up points, we could very easily find ourselves down in 10-11th place on PPG, and maybe 8-10 points behind 3rd place on PPG.

This is now very, very close to crunch time. We CAN still turn things around without the need for another miracle run-in. But if we carry on at the long term average of 1.2-1.4 points per game for another 3-4 games, we'll have a massive mountain to climb to reach third place, and enough of one to make the playoffs.

[Draytonian III]

Well that’s nearly 5 pages since the OP and the person who set it off has sat back and watched us discuss the pros and cons, but not responded himself, perhaps he’s not a Rovers fan but just a wind up merchant who supports another team but lives in the local area

[Rovers91]

Thought I might log on here today and post something calm, but no, still annoyed about yesterday.

You won’t find many bigger GM fans than me. Go through my posts from the first half of last season and I defended him to the hilt on here when he was getting the finger pointed at him for how we were doing. But I have to admit that the current state of affairs is turning into a huge disappointment.

He said before the season that the aim was the title (we the fans didn’t set that expectation, he did) and we are miles off it! We’re still in an OK position in the league, but if we don’t solve the major issues in the team we won’t be for much longer and will be needing another amazing run to make up ground.

He’s got all his own players now and we look increasingly like a team that hasn’t got a clue, struggles to do the basics of the game, and finds it a long painful struggle to create a sufficient quantity of decent chances in a game.

This is not a new problem. This has been going on since late September/early October (at home primarily). We’ve had three months to find ways around it but things don’t seem to be improving. OK, we comfortably beat Tranmere at home, but they are absolute dogger. We beat Fleetwood who are average but it was far from convincing and we suffered the same issues described above.

Time and time again, we come up against teams who observe how we try to play, set traps for us, and more often than not we fall into them. How have we failed to adapt to this when it’s been going on for months?

People saying Port Vale didn’t play well. They didn’t need to! They knew that they could let our defence and midfield have the ball and that they’d do very little with it, and then when they inevitably caught us out, any shot on target would have a fair chance of going in. It was very deliberate. That performance from us wasn’t the worst we’ve seen in isolation, but in context it was yet another game where we were outmanoeuvred by the opposition and it looked painful watching us try to create chances.

Recruitment - we have about 30 players on the books but very few have any genuine pace. The only central midfielder with any quality on the ball can’t play more than 20 games a season and has been frozen out (oh and was given a new deal in the summer. The goalkeeper (Tin Hat firmly on) basically lets in the majority of shots that go on target, and the alternatives in the squad are no better. Clifton is as bang average as Biggins but without the screamers. Broadbent might have some ability but is majorly hindered by not being able to move and is prone to lapses in concentration like we saw at Wimbledon and against Fleetwood. Wood was given a new deal but is nowhere to be seen. Close was given a new deal when he probably shouldn’t have been. Sbarra is a mystery. Yeboah was useless. Kelly is clearly talented but isn’t going to grab a game by the scruff of the neck. Gibson is either not at it most of the time, or doesn’t fit into the team. How many players we brought in have actually improved us? I’d say only Sharp has delivered really. It’s ended up as a right old mish mash.

Usually I wouldn’t be one to “expect” or “demand” promotion, but we’ve basically been told we should do. The manager has repeated it multiple times. He’s been given great backing by the chairman to get this right and we are performing below the expectation that has been set. Meanwhile Walsall are running away with it with some smart recruitment from non-league and the loan market, and by having a settled team and a recognisable style of play that suits their players and is consistent.

Let’s hope for some good January recruitment (both in and out) and an improvement in performances soon. Without that we are going to end up in mid table.

Absolute spot on.

[dickos1]

https://theanalyst.com/eu/competition/english-league-two/table

Top of the expected table.

What does that say about all our apparent poor stats then?

What do you think it says dickos? And how do you get our actual performance to become inline with our expected performance?

I’ve no idea what it means, it was a genuine question.
What does an expected table even mean?

[StocksArmy]

Just going back to the opening post and some people who think after yesterday we are getting worse…. I just think “abysmal” is a really harsh way to sum up the performance. We were abysmal in both boxes I agree but, everything in between that, I thought we were good and much improved on most home games this season. We can take positives from that in my opinion.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SA

I very much disagree.

A major reason we were so toothless up front yesterday is precisely because our play between the boxes was, as it had been all season against a low block, ponderous and predictable.

We either go wide via full backs and wingers, or we go long for wingers to chase in behind defences. And sides have sussed that. They are sitting deep and wide and blocking off both those routes of attack.

In that situation, it's absolutely crucial that someone drips from midfield into the hole that opens up between the opposition attack and midfield, and draws players out of the low block set up. Do that and we still have the ability to hit a side hard, as we did with the Sharp-Molyneux chance yesterday.

But how often have you seen us do that against a low block this season? Slack handful of times? Usually we keep smashing our heads against an easily set-up defensive structure.

It's SO obvious, it's pitifully painful to watch. But it's been going on all season and if we don't address it REALLY quickly, the season is going down the pan.

[Lesonthewest]

Thought I might log on here today and post something calm, but no, still annoyed about yesterday.

You won’t find many bigger GM fans than me. Go through my posts from the first half of last season and I defended him to the hilt on here when he was getting the finger pointed at him for how we were doing. But I have to admit that the current state of affairs is turning into a huge disappointment.

He said before the season that the aim was the title (we the fans didn’t set that expectation, he did) and we are miles off it! We’re still in an OK position in the league, but if we don’t solve the major issues in the team we won’t be for much longer and will be needing another amazing run to make up ground.

He’s got all his own players now and we look increasingly like a team that hasn’t got a clue, struggles to do the basics of the game, and finds it a long painful struggle to create a sufficient quantity of decent chances in a game.

This is not a new problem. This has been going on since late September/early October (at home primarily). We’ve had three months to find ways around it but things don’t seem to be improving. OK, we comfortably beat Tranmere at home, but they are absolute dogger. We beat Fleetwood who are average but it was far from convincing and we suffered the same issues described above.

Time and time again, we come up against teams who observe how we try to play, set traps for us, and more often than not we fall into them. How have we failed to adapt to this when it’s been going on for months?

People saying Port Vale didn’t play well. They didn’t need to! They knew that they could let our defence and midfield have the ball and that they’d do very little with it, and then when they inevitably caught us out, any shot on target would have a fair chance of going in. It was very deliberate. That performance from us wasn’t the worst we’ve seen in isolation, but in context it was yet another game where we were outmanoeuvred by the opposition and it looked painful watching us try to create chances.

Recruitment - we have about 30 players on the books but very few have any genuine pace. The only central midfielder with any quality on the ball can’t play more than 20 games a season and has been frozen out (oh and was given a new deal in the summer. The goalkeeper (Tin Hat firmly on) basically lets in the majority of shots that go on target, and the alternatives in the squad are no better. Clifton is as bang average as Biggins but without the screamers. Broadbent might have some ability but is majorly hindered by not being able to move and is prone to lapses in concentration like we saw at Wimbledon and against Fleetwood. Wood was given a new deal but is nowhere to be seen. Close was given a new deal when he probably shouldn’t have been. Sbarra is a mystery. Yeboah was useless. Kelly is clearly talented but isn’t going to grab a game by the scruff of the neck. Gibson is either not at it most of the time, or doesn’t fit into the team. How many players we brought in have actually improved us? I’d say only Sharp has delivered really. It’s ended up as a right old mish mash.

Usually I wouldn’t be one to “expect” or “demand” promotion, but we’ve basically been told we should do. The manager has repeated it multiple times. He’s been given great backing by the chairman to get this right and we are performing below the expectation that has been set. Meanwhile Walsall are running away with it with some smart recruitment from non-league and the loan market, and by having a settled team and a recognisable style of play that suits their players and is consistent.

Let’s hope for some good January recruitment (both in and out) and an improvement in performances soon. Without that we are going to end up in mid table.

Wow, that is a brilliantly put post. Couldn’t agree more.

Agree, brilliant post, & I dare say one that most on here can't disagree with.

[StocksArmy]

SA

I very much disagree.

A major reason we were so toothless up front yesterday is precisely because our play between the boxes was, as it had been all season against a low block, ponderous and predictable.

We either go wide via full backs and wingers, or we go long for wingers to chase in behind defences. And sides have sussed that. They are sitting deep and wide and blocking off both those routes of attack.

In that situation, it's absolutely crucial that someone drips from midfield into the hole that opens up between the opposition attack and midfield, and draws players out of the low block set up. Do that and we still have the ability to hit a side hard, as we did with the Sharp-Molyneux chance yesterday.

But how often have you seen us do that against a low block this season? Slack handful of times? Usually we keep smashing our heads against an easily set-up defensive structure.

It's SO obvious, it's pitifully painful to watch. But it's been going on all season and if we don't address it REALLY quickly, the season is going down the pan.

I agree entirely BST and have been saying exactly that since the Morecambe home games. Just thought yesterday there were signs in the first half especially that the penny had started to drop and we crossed the ball rather than going back into defence. When we were in tight spaces we looked to switch play quickly. It wasn’t amazing but, there was definitely a change in strategy which gave me a hint of hope coming away from the game.

[pib]

Didn't expect the post I did yesterday to strike such a cord. FWIW I'm still a big believer in McCann, I just find it so frustrating that we don't seem to have recognised and adapted to something that's been causing us to drop a significant number of points for 3 months now. We're all desperate to get out of this league as I'm sure he is, so I'm shocked we haven't come up with the answers yet.

It may be that he doesn't have the right players, but I come back to the fact that most of this squad is now his, either via bringing these players in or contract extensions. Hopefully this can be rectified in January, where I think getting a few out will be as important as getting a few in.

Further to BST's post, in my opinion two things we're not doing anywhere near enough of from what I can see is, 1) sitting off the opposition and being more compact/patient in waiting for counter attack opportunities. 2) playing long diagonal passes to Ironside (or now Street) and getting players around them to feed off what they can win in the air.

I sense that we're reluctant to go with number 2) because ideologically we want to be a passing, pressing team. But we're clearly not very good at being that at the moment, and as "ugly" as it might sound, we seem to be much more effective playing very directly and getting the likes of Sharp, Hurst, Moly etc. (formation depending) running off a target man. If it's effective and helps us get promoted, who cares if it's unfashionable or deemed as ugly?

That would rely on Ironside being on his game, which he largely hasn't been this season, but will probably find it very difficult to find that form again without a run of games.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Some very good points being made. Quite clearly it was an abysmal result rather than an abysmal performance. Up to 60 mins, if Billy's attempt had gone in, and their goal against the run of play hadn't, it would have been a fairer reflection of the game.

It's really difficult to pinpoint exactly what needs to change, in terms of personnel and formation(s) that will reverse the trend. But even before we do that, the majority of players out there are capable. There are individual errors that are creeping in, poor ball control, inability to make a simple pass and, play the pass without hesitation. We see movement get stagnated as doubt and anxiety creeps in.

There are a few things that can be solved there. Than there's the set up of the team and what GM is asking the players to do. This time, we saw Bailey playing the anchor role in midfield, Kelly supporting him with Clifton foraging further forward but there doesn't seem to be enough Co ordination between them, although as pointed out earlier in the thread, our objective seems to be to get the ball to our inverted wide men ASAP, or use our wing backs rather than playing slick one-touch football down the middle. We see different combos, all trying to execute the same thing but seem to struggle to sustain it for any longer periods in games and that has to come down to individual motivation, belief etc.

It doesn't help of course when our two most prominent forward players from last season are currently way off where they were last season. Similarly, Bailey and Maxwell haven't been as effective either. If those four were to perform as we know they can, we could easily be 6 to 10 points better off. It then it makes it easier for the other newish lads to integrate and perform.

GM has to try to get better out of these players first and foremost, reduce those silly errors that have crept in, and we win that game.

Quality new additions are always welcome but our main concerns are the current key players who should be first on the teamsheet every week.