Blades

[BobG]

Christ Almighty.....

BobG

[IDM]

Point of order:  it was never “league 1”..

[sf9944]

Once again! Please can we keep politics out of this. Five minutes on the politics section of this forum is enough to cause a days worth of depression. Which is why I avoid it. But I’d still like to read opinions about the Rovers.

[Alan Southstand]

Was Moore the least sustainable manager in recent years? Got us playing very well for a period but did so largely using players we didn’t own and left a shell of a squad when he f**ked off. The sustainability approach we adopted for a few seasons had a lot to do with our collapse but not actually owning players who could compete in League One was a serious issue also.

Not to forget he inherited a ‘shell of a squad’ as well.

The David Blunt years. Please let’s not go there again.

[Smyth]

Point of order:  it was never “league 1”..

Sorry Division 1

[Smyth]

Christ Almighty.....

BobG

Maybe you couldn't mention your tiresome reductionist crap about everything being the fault of Murdoch?

[BobG]

Because, unlike you, I have my beliefs and assumptions challenged, on a very regular basis, by some very bright people indeed. Just as an example one of them is a graduate of Oxford and is  a long term Conservative member of Milton Keynes Council holding both executive and oversight responsibilities.The others are all not backwards in coming forwards either. If I say something that is emotionally driven, without a factual and/or evidence basis, then I get shot down very rapidly indeed.

In other words, what I say is tested against evidence, fact and logic too. You, on the other hand, wouldn't last 90 seconds. You don't think.You emote. And it is consistently utter drivel. I've rarely seen so much rubbish out of the mouth of one single person.

BobG

[Michael Shaw]

Been out for a few in town, walked past the railway station as loads of Donny blades were emerging, Told a few of them they should be supporting the Rovers.

Being football fans doesn’t mean we’re automatically obligated to support our local team. Loyalty has to be earned — through consistent performance. That kind of connection takes years to build and can be lost far more quickly.

Sheffield United is a club that’s consistently striving for a place in the Premier League. They’re not just celebrating a return to League One after years languishing in the EFL’s lowest tier. That kind of mediocrity, driven by a poorly thought-out “sustainability” strategy, is exactly what’s held Doncaster Rovers back for the last 3 years.

With an owner unwilling to invest enough to compete for top-tier football, Doncaster is unlikely to ever reach the heights achieved by the Blades. We are lucky to have their cast-offs in Billy Sharp who is one of the most talented players ever in a Rovers’ shirt.

I bet their fans found your comment hilarious.

[ravenrover]

Aaaah he's back!

[Reg of the Rovers]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cp34kj9p8xno

There is some evidence that we are historically under-achieving given the size of the city we live in. We've picked this topic up a few times in the years I've been on here, and whilst there's reasons we're probably underachievers (proximity to big city teams, corrupt ownership in the 1990s, lack of disposable income in the 1980s) it doesn't fully explain the longer historical and persistent nature of our under achievement. Maybe if we could have held on when we got to the Championship and those last day relegations and failed experiments hadn't happened we could have consolidated upwards? But even that doesn't explain 150 years of bang-averageness.

We're miles bigger than Burnley, Bournemouth, Portsmouth - so club-bashing aside, there is something in the Donny water keeping us down! Forget Andrew Tate, let's have a doctoral thesis about this!!

[DonnyNoel]

It's an interesting one Reg. Whenever someone puts Donny down as a small town I do pull out the population statistic and point out from Stainforth I can get to Meadowhall quicker than I can get to other parts of Doncaster. But from a Rovers point of view I do think it's a red herring. Assuming that includes Mexborough, Conisbrough etc I would never consider them an area that would pull in Rovers fans. I work in Thorne, lots of people there would say they're from Thorne not Doncaster, hence the large Leeds following.

Obviously, we lost a generation of fans too which doesn't help. I'm 44. I went to school with a minute number of Rovers fans - they were seen as a bit of a joke club at times amongst younger fans at that times.

[Draytonian III]

Been out for a few in town, walked past the railway station as loads of Donny blades were emerging, Told a few of them they should be supporting the Rovers.

Being football fans doesn’t mean we’re automatically obligated to support our local team. Loyalty has to be earned — through consistent performance. That kind of connection takes years to build and can be lost far more quickly.

Sheffield United is a club that’s consistently striving for a place in the Premier League. They’re not just celebrating a return to League One after years languishing in the EFL’s lowest tier. That kind of mediocrity, driven by a poorly thought-out “sustainability” strategy, is exactly what’s held Doncaster Rovers back for the last 3 years.

With an owner unwilling to invest enough to compete for top-tier football, Doncaster is unlikely to ever reach the heights achieved by the Blades. We are lucky to have their cast-offs in Billy Sharp who is one of the most talented players ever in a Rovers’ shirt.

I bet their fans found your comment hilarious.







And that’s your opinion, other people might have a different one to yours but feel free to preach your gospel for a while

[BobG]

A very, very sizeable reason for the descent from the second division to the fourth, and at least a decade of subsequent mediocrity came in the shape of Hubert Bates. It was he who pushed out Peter Doherty. He was therefore also responsible for the exodus of good players that followed. Once Rovers were in the fourth division it was his stewardship that saw us stay there. Even when he was removed from the Chair he stayed on the Board - until 1973 or 1974 I think it was. His baleful influence sank the club. Despite occasional upturns the club only really came back to life when John Ryan arrived. We all owe John a very great deal therefore no matter what we might think of some of the more questionable episodes.

BobG

[DonnyNoel]

A very, very sizeable reason for the descent from the second division to the fourth, and at best more than a decade of subsequent mediocrity came in the shape of Hubert Bates. It was he pushed out Peter Doherty. He was therefore also responsible for the exodus of good players that followed. Once Rovers were in the fourth division it was his stewardship that saw us stay there. Even when he was removed from the Chair he stayed on the Board - until 1973 or 1974 I think. His baleful influence sank the club. Despite occasional upturns it only came back to real life when John Ryan arrived. We all owe him a very great deal therefore no matter what we might think of some of the more questionable episodes.

BobG

I hadn't realised the indifference went back that far.

Picking two at random, I'd love to know what %age of Barnsley and Stockport people support their local club. I know Barnsley had a season in the sun but that was 25 years ago. I guess I want to know what makes people gravitate towards/away from their local team.

[Reg of the Rovers]

It's hard to grasp - looking at Ipswich which his half the size of Donny, they've had 26 seasons of top flight football, including last year, and average attendances above the 15k mark consistently for 70 years.

We've had our benefactor, but as he was a millionaire rather than a billionaire, we've never pushed on massively, but the people of Donny still haven't got fully behind the team. I'm a similar age to you Noel, and I was one of two Donny fans in my secondary school. But even now my kids are two of maybe a dozen 'proper' Donny fans at their school - which is probably the root of the issue. 

[tommy toes]

Been out for a few in town, walked past the railway station as loads of Donny blades were emerging, Told a few of them they should be supporting the Rovers.

Being football fans doesn’t mean we’re automatically obligated to support our local team. Loyalty has to be earned — through consistent performance. That kind of connection takes years to build and can be lost far more quickly.

Sheffield United is a club that’s consistently striving for a place in the Premier League. They’re not just celebrating a return to League One after years languishing in the EFL’s lowest tier. That kind of mediocrity, driven by a poorly thought-out “sustainability” strategy, is exactly what’s held Doncaster Rovers back for the last 3 years.

With an owner unwilling to invest enough to compete for top-tier football, Doncaster is unlikely to ever reach the heights achieved by the Blades. We are lucky to have their cast-offs in Billy Sharp who is one of the most talented players ever in a Rovers’ shirt.

I bet their fans found your comment hilarious.

Blimey calm down.
It was a light hearted finish from me after discussing with half a dozen of them the fact that they should have been 4-0 up before Sunderland scored.
Maybe I should have posted this earlier.

[idler]

It's hard to grasp - looking at Ipswich which his half the size of Donny, they've had 26 seasons of top flight football, including last year, and average attendances above the 15k mark consistently for 70 years.

We've had our benefactor, but as he was a millionaire rather than a billionaire, we've never pushed on massively, but the people of Donny still haven't got fully behind the team. I'm a similar age to you Noel, and I was one of two Donny fans in my secondary school. But even now my kids are two of maybe a dozen 'proper' Donny fans at their school - which is probably the root of the issue. 

If you live in Ipswich how far do you travel to watch a big club?
 It is the same with Norwich, you have a captive audience so to speak if you want to watch a high standard game.
Lack of investment in 1966 and selling Laurie Sheffield held us back after a great season the year before when crowds were booming at the end of the season.

[BobG]

Tell me, seriously Michael Shaw, what your qualifications and experience are that allows you state, categorically, that the Rovers sustainability strategy is "poorly thought out" and "mediocre". Seriously, if you can justify those statements with evidence and proper qualifications then I'd take them a lot more seriously than I do right now. At the moment I'm a follower of Hitchens Razor and Professor Cox. For the former:

"An assertion made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

and for the latter:

 "The problem with today’s world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it. The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense".

Over to you

BobG

[Herman Hessian]

But only 'Yanks' have this detrimental effect eh?

not your comment I know, Smyth - but the Swiss present a far more existential threat to the game as we know it than the Americans - well, one of them, in particular...

[RoversInSpain]

Been out for a few in town, walked past the railway station as loads of Donny blades were emerging, Told a few of them they should be supporting the Rovers.

Being football fans doesn’t mean we’re automatically obligated to support our local team. Loyalty has to be earned — through consistent performance. That kind of connection takes years to build and can be lost far more quickly.

Sheffield United is a club that’s consistently striving for a place in the Premier League. They’re not just celebrating a return to League One after years languishing in the EFL’s lowest tier. That kind of mediocrity, driven by a poorly thought-out “sustainability” strategy, is exactly what’s held Doncaster Rovers back for the last 3 years.

With an owner unwilling to invest enough to compete for top-tier football, Doncaster is unlikely to ever reach the heights achieved by the Blades. We are lucky to have their cast-offs in Billy Sharp who is one of the most talented players ever in a Rovers’ shirt.

I bet their fans found your comment hilarious.

Interesting first paragraph, for me and not having parents remotely interested in Football I went to Rovers for a couple of games in 1974, as an 11 year old on my own. I loved footy and was keen on Liverpool, probably because everyone who was interested in footy at Town Fields school supported Leeds.
The first Home game of the 1975/76 season I went v Cambridge and Rovers lost 2-0, however I vividly remember coming out of the ground and thinking ‘I’m going to support this club’, and went to every home game that season.
It mattered not about any loyalty, couldn’t care less whoever ran the club, didn’t matter we weren’t that good (though Stan Anderson gave us a good season) I quite simply was hooked and have never swayed. Supporting a club gets in the blood and nothing shifts it.
My 2 sons in Australia are mad fans (have had season tickets when in Donny) and my other lad in Newquay (whose never lived any where near Donny)  is as passionate as I ever was, and will drive up from Cornwall to take in matches.
So really, loyalty doesn’t have to be gained, it takes a game to get you connected, and it’s never lost, consistent performances or not.

[drfchound]

Been out for a few in town, walked past the railway station as loads of Donny blades were emerging, Told a few of them they should be supporting the Rovers.

Being football fans doesn’t mean we’re automatically obligated to support our local team. Loyalty has to be earned — through consistent performance. That kind of connection takes years to build and can be lost far more quickly.

Sheffield United is a club that’s consistently striving for a place in the Premier League. They’re not just celebrating a return to League One after years languishing in the EFL’s lowest tier. That kind of mediocrity, driven by a poorly thought-out “sustainability” strategy, is exactly what’s held Doncaster Rovers back for the last 3 years.

With an owner unwilling to invest enough to compete for top-tier football, Doncaster is unlikely to ever reach the heights achieved by the Blades. We are lucky to have their cast-offs in Billy Sharp who is one of the most talented players ever in a Rovers’ shirt.

I bet their fans found your comment hilarious.

Interesting first paragraph, for me and not having parents remotely interested in Football I went to Rovers for a couple of games in 1974, as an 11 year old on my own. I loved footy and was keen on Liverpool, probably because everyone who was interested in footy at Town Fields school supported Leeds.
The first Home game of the 1975/76 season I went v Cambridge and Rovers lost 2-0, however I vividly remember coming out of the ground and thinking ‘I’m going to support this club’, and went to every home game that season.
It mattered not about any loyalty, couldn’t care less whoever ran the club, didn’t matter we weren’t that good (though Stan Anderson gave us a good season) I quite simply was hooked and have never swayed. Supporting a club gets in the blood and nothing shifts it.
My 2 sons in Australia are mad fans (have had season tickets when in Donny) and my other lad in Newquay (whose never lived any where near Donny)  is as passionate as I ever was, and will drive up from Cornwall to take in matches.
So really, loyalty doesn’t have to be gained, it takes a game to get you connected, and it’s never lost, consistent performances or not.

Great post RiS, your beginning of the journey is more or less the same as mine, except mine began a decade or so earlier.

[Michael Shaw]

Tell me, seriously Michael Shaw, what your qualifications and experience are that allows you state, categorically, that the Rovers sustainability strategy is "poorly thought out" and "mediocre". Seriously, if you can justify those statements with evidence and proper qualifications then I'd take them a lot more seriously than I do right now. At the moment I'm a follower of Hitchens Razor and Professor Cox. For the former:

"An assertion made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

and for the latter:

 "The problem with today’s world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it. The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense".

Over to you

BobG

My evidence Bobg  is there for all to see if you pay attention.

With Ryan, Watson and Bramall as owners we rose up to the Championship. With just Bramall we have been in League Two for three years. Isn’t it obvious. With massive funding Wrexham proved what funding can do, and with one owner controlling the purse strings Doncaster will never be a Wrexham.

Collapsing down into the lowest tier is hardly going promote support for the club and that support needs to be rebuilt.
I have said similar time and time again, but if some can’t absorb common sense then there is nothing more I can do.

I am calm, because I don’t have a season ticket and don’t personally attend many matches so I am not as emotional as most posters on here.  You just spout off your opinion, like others that live on this forum with a massive number of posts, but don’t provide intelligent arguments yourself against views like mine.

We were once a Championship side and look where we have been for three years.  Fact.

[Michael Shaw]

It's hard to grasp - looking at Ipswich which his half the size of Donny, they've had 26 seasons of top flight football, including last year, and average attendances above the 15k mark consistently for 70 years.

We've had our benefactor, but as he was a millionaire rather than a billionaire, we've never pushed on massively, but the people of Donny still haven't got fully behind the team. I'm a similar age to you Noel, and I was one of two Donny fans in my secondary school. But even now my kids are two of maybe a dozen 'proper' Donny fans at their school - which is probably the root of the issue. 

I totally agree RIS.

Ipswich have not fallen into league two like Doncaster has. If we had sustained a high level of success like Ipswich we could also probably pull in a higher fan base. We are not consistent enough to maintain interest from floating supporters. We need to give fans something to watch and that is not league two football.

[Sprotyrover]

Been out for a few in town, walked past the railway station as loads of Donny blades were emerging, Told a few of them they should be supporting the Rovers.

Being football fans doesn’t mean we’re automatically obligated to support our local team. Loyalty has to be earned — through consistent performance. That kind of connection takes years to build and can be lost far more quickly.

Sheffield United is a club that’s consistently striving for a place in the Premier League. They’re not just celebrating a return to League One after years languishing in the EFL’s lowest tier. That kind of mediocrity, driven by a poorly thought-out “sustainability” strategy, is exactly what’s held Doncaster Rovers back for the last 3 years.

With an owner unwilling to invest enough to compete for top-tier football, Doncaster is unlikely to ever reach the heights achieved by the Blades. We are lucky to have their cast-offs in Billy Sharp who is one of the most talented players ever in a Rovers’ shirt.

I bet their fans found your comment hilarious.

Interesting first paragraph, for me and not having parents remotely interested in Football I went to Rovers for a couple of games in 1974, as an 11 year old on my own. I loved footy and was keen on Liverpool, probably because everyone who was interested in footy at Town Fields school supported Leeds.
The first Home game of the 1975/76 season I went v Cambridge and Rovers lost 2-0, however I vividly remember coming out of the ground and thinking ‘I’m going to support this club’, and went to every home game that season.
It mattered not about any loyalty, couldn’t care less whoever ran the club, didn’t matter we weren’t that good (though Stan Anderson gave us a good season) I quite simply was hooked and have never swayed. Supporting a club gets in the blood and nothing shifts it.
My 2 sons in Australia are mad fans (have had season tickets when in Donny) and my other lad in Newquay (whose never lived any where near Donny)  is as passionate as I ever was, and will drive up from Cornwall to take in matches.
So really, loyalty doesn’t have to be gained, it takes a game to get you connected, and it’s never lost, consistent performances or not.

Same here My Widowed Mum wasn’t interested in anything other than Scraping by! I went to my first Rovers game in early 1973 we lost 1-2 to Brentford.
Most of the lads T Adwick comp were either Leeds or Man Utd , several also went to Rovers so I went with them.

[IDM]

It's hard to grasp - looking at Ipswich which his half the size of Donny, they've had 26 seasons of top flight football, including last year, and average attendances above the 15k mark consistently for 70 years.

We've had our benefactor, but as he was a millionaire rather than a billionaire, we've never pushed on massively, but the people of Donny still haven't got fully behind the team. I'm a similar age to you Noel, and I was one of two Donny fans in my secondary school. But even now my kids are two of maybe a dozen 'proper' Donny fans at their school - which is probably the root of the issue. 

I totally agree RIS.

Ipswich have not fallen into league two like Doncaster has. If we had sustained a high level of success like Ipswich we could also probably pull in a higher fan base. We are not consistent enough to maintain interest from floating supporters. We need to give fans something to watch and that is not league two football.

Ipswich would not have lost a generation of fans in the late 70’s however, given they were one of the country’s top sides then and competing in Europe.

[silent majority]

Tell me, seriously Michael Shaw, what your qualifications and experience are that allows you state, categorically, that the Rovers sustainability strategy is "poorly thought out" and "mediocre". Seriously, if you can justify those statements with evidence and proper qualifications then I'd take them a lot more seriously than I do right now. At the moment I'm a follower of Hitchens Razor and Professor Cox. For the former:

"An assertion made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

and for the latter:

 "The problem with today’s world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it. The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense".

Over to you

BobG

My evidence Bobg  is there for all to see if you pay attention.

With Ryan, Watson and Bramall as owners we rose up to the Championship. With just Bramall we have been in League Two for three years. Isn’t it obvious. With massive funding Wrexham proved what funding can do, and with one owner controlling the purse strings Doncaster will never be a Wrexham.

Collapsing down into the lowest tier is hardly going promote support for the club and that support needs to be rebuilt.
I have said similar time and time again, but if some can’t absorb common sense then there is nothing more I can do.

I am calm, because I don’t have a season ticket and don’t personally attend many matches so I am not as emotional as most posters on here.  You just spout off your opinion, like others that live on this forum with a massive number of posts, but don’t provide intelligent arguments yourself against views like mine.

We were once a Championship side and look where we have been for three years.  Fact.

That's partly true, but also for every example you give there are umpteen others that don't support your argument. Carlisle relegated, Scunthorpe once had bigger budgets than us, and there are numerous examples higher up the league, clubs that have spent millions not going anywhere.

Last season, League 1, 2nd biggest spenders in the transfer market, behind Birmingham, were Huddersfield who spent over £5m and finished 10th, Peterborough Utd who were the 4th biggest spenders and finished 18th. One of my favourites is PNE in the Championship whose owner pumps in £17m a season to finish just above relegation.

Club finances are a mess, and the argument isn't about sustainability as you mention it because its more about keeping the debt pile as low as possible for most clubs.

Because Wrexham have done what they’ve done the EFL have changed the financial rules for next season because operating like they have done isn't good for competition, and certainly will affect the game at lower levels in a very negative fashion.

The Football Distress Survey for last season goes into a lot of detail, but also had this to say about Wrexham and clearly states that the message is not a positive one;

“The revival of Wrexham from non-league status to the Championship has seemed like a fairy tale, but it has not been done without huge media deals to creatively generate additional revenues and good management. It is a fantastic story for the game here, but we need to ensure a spotlight is shone on the more typical, struggling lower league clubs before they are pushed over the brink.”

[NickDRFC]

Tell me, seriously Michael Shaw, what your qualifications and experience are that allows you state, categorically, that the Rovers sustainability strategy is "poorly thought out" and "mediocre". Seriously, if you can justify those statements with evidence and proper qualifications then I'd take them a lot more seriously than I do right now. At the moment I'm a follower of Hitchens Razor and Professor Cox. For the former:

"An assertion made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

and for the latter:

 "The problem with today’s world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it. The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense".

Over to you

BobG

My evidence Bobg  is there for all to see if you pay attention.

With Ryan, Watson and Bramall as owners we rose up to the Championship. With just Bramall we have been in League Two for three years. Isn’t it obvious. With massive funding Wrexham proved what funding can do, and with one owner controlling the purse strings Doncaster will never be a Wrexham.

Collapsing down into the lowest tier is hardly going promote support for the club and that support needs to be rebuilt.
I have said similar time and time again, but if some can’t absorb common sense then there is nothing more I can do.

I am calm, because I don’t have a season ticket and don’t personally attend many matches so I am not as emotional as most posters on here.  You just spout off your opinion, like others that live on this forum with a massive number of posts, but don’t provide intelligent arguments yourself against views like mine.

We were once a Championship side and look where we have been for three years.  Fact.

That's partly true, but also for every example you give there are umpteen others that don't support your argument. Carlisle relegated, Scunthorpe once had bigger budgets than us, and there are numerous examples higher up the league, clubs that have spent millions not going anywhere.

Last season, League 1, 2nd biggest spenders in the transfer market, behind Birmingham, were Huddersfield who spent over £5m and finished 10th, Peterborough Utd who were the 4th biggest spenders and finished 18th. One of my favourites is PNE in the Championship whose owner pumps in £17m a season to finish just above relegation.

Club finances are a mess, and the argument isn't about sustainability as you mention it because its more about keeping the debt pile as low as possible for most clubs.

Because Wrexham have done what they’ve done the EFL have changed the financial rules for next season because operating like they have done isn't good for competition, and certainly will affect the game at lower levels in a very negative fashion.

The Football Distress Survey for last season goes into a lot of detail, but also had this to say about Wrexham and clearly states that the message is not a positive one;

“The revival of Wrexham from non-league status to the Championship has seemed like a fairy tale, but it has not been done without huge media deals to creatively generate additional revenues and good management. It is a fantastic story for the game here, but we need to ensure a spotlight is shone on the more typical, struggling lower league clubs before they are pushed over the brink.”

Agree with what you’re saying but that figure for Preston is surely an exaggeration.

[Chris Black come back]

Preston had an operating loss of £20.2m in 2022, £14.4m in 2023 and £14.4m again in 2024. Over the last decade their wage bill has more than tripled and they’ve gone from an operating profit of £17.4m to an operating loss of £14.4m.

Since 2020 they have booked a cumulative loss of £90.3m. This has been financed fairy equally by equity (£50m of new shares issued to the owners) and debt (loans of £48.6m to the owners). They make barely any profit ever from player sales and have been net spenders in the last four seasons.

Best thing you can say about their model is that they are starting to get a grip on wages, which were at 196pc of income in 2021 and have come down gradually to ‘only’ 136pc of income in 2024. Their average wage is only £10.5k.

[NickDRFC]

Preston had an operating loss of £20.2m in 2022, £14.4m in 2023 and £14.4m again. in 2024. Over the last decade their wage bill has more than tripled and they’ve gone from an operating profit of  £17.4m to a loss of £14.4m. Since 2020 they have booked a cumulative loss of £90.3m. 

That’s not the same as what the owner puts in, though.

Just had a look myself and in the 2022/23 figures £9.5m was put in and in the 2023/24 it was £9.8m. 2024/25 figures aren’t publicly available yet. Still eye watering figures.

[Alan Southstand]

This thread has gone way off track!!