Happy St Georges day

[Filo]

[BillyStubbsTears]

Since legend has it that he was born near modern-day Tel Aviv, and lived and died in what is modern day Istanbul, I'd have thought a choice between the two flags below was more suitable.

[bobjimwilly]

Actually, St George helped promote and defend Christanity against Roman beliefs during the 3rd Century AD, which is probably why Henry V chose him as the patron saint of England after we won the battle of Agincourt.

Also he was tough, stood (and died) for his beliefs and he was a born leader - all the things the 3 main political party leaders are not nowadays  

[Thinwhiteduke]

I challenged my daughters Primary School Teacher on what they we telling the children regarding St Georges day or what they were doing to celebrate, I was told they will do nothing because it would be unfair to discriminate on the non English/ Christian pupils.  

[River Don]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

Since legend has it that he was born near modern-day Tel Aviv, and lived and died in what is modern day Istanbul, I'd have thought a choice between the two flags below was more suitable.

Just the sort of inclusive, multi-cultural figure I thought you'd approve of BST. Join us with a kofte kebab, a glass of Raki and celebrate St George!

[Boomstick]

Happy st georges day everyone. Proud to be an Englishman, proud of my country's history and my Anglo-Saxon ancestry.

There will always be an England.


[video]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73eB-aAo8Eg&feature=related[/video]

[BillyStubbsTears]

bobjimwilly wrote:

Actually, St George helped promote and defend Christanity against Roman beliefs during the 3rd Century AD, which is probably why Henry V chose him as the patron saint of England after we won the battle of Agincourt.

Also he was tough, stood (and died) for his beliefs and he was a born leader - all the things the 3 main political party leaders are not nowadays  

Given that I'm no fan of royalty and a born again aetheist, you're not doing a reight good job if selling him to me...

My understanding was that St George became the de facto patron saint in the days of the Crusades when our ( French) kings and their (French) noblemen spent more time rampaging around the Holy Land and raping & pillaging Constantinople & Jerusalem than they did dealing with Blighty. They picked up on the legend of St George and brought it home to us then.

So St George has precious little connection with England.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm proud to be English and proud of much that we have given to the world. I just don't see what any of that gas to do with a semi-legendary bloke from 2000 miles away and 1700 years ago.

Now, if we had a sensible debate about what we mean about England, Englishness and English values, I'd be all for that, and for having a day to celebrate it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Boomstick wrote:

Happy st georges day everyone. Proud to be an Englishman, proud of my country's history and my Anglo-Saxon ancestry.

There will always be an England.

I thought the genetic studies reckoned that we were predominantly Celtic, with dashes of Angle, Jute, Saxon, French and Viking (immigrants the lot of em) chucked in.

As I've mentioned on here before, in my case, my family name is an old French word for a German, I was born in the shadow of a Norman castle. My mother's family are Irish. Iwent to school in what originally was an old Viking settlement and I married a half-Italian lass. I'm as English as thee, mind, but that hardly equates to Anglo-Saxon.

[grayx]

Thinwhiteduke wrote:

I challenged my daughters Primary School Teacher on what they we telling the children regarding St Georges day or what they were doing to celebrate, I was told they will do nothing because it would be unfair to discriminate on the non English/ Christian pupils.  

Why doesn't that surprise me. People should adapt to the country that they live in. If they can't, there's always an option.

[Boomstick]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

Boomstick wrote:

Happy st georges day everyone. Proud to be an Englishman, proud of my country's history and my Anglo-Saxon ancestry.

There will always be an England.

I thought the genetic studies reckoned that we were predominantly Celtic, with dashes of Angle, Jute, Saxon, French and Viking (immigrants the lot of em) chucked in.

As I've mentioned on here before, in my case, my family name is an old French word for a German, I was born in the shadow of a Norman castle. My mother's family are Irish. Iwent to school in what originally was an old Viking settlement and I married a half-Italian lass. I'm as English as thee, mind, but that hardly equates to Anglo-Saxon.

Nope. The Angles, Jutes and Saxons were the Germanic tribes that formed the people known as the Anglo Saxons. The Celts f**ked off to Scotland, wales, britanny and to a lesser extent Cornwall, when the Anglo saxons started throwing their weight around.
Oh and the bloke who built the current castle at conisbrough was an English nobleman. (If thats the castle your on about).

All that said, i'm still open to the possibility of having a bit of Norman or Norse blood in me. I wouldnt mind getting one of those genetic tests to find out.

[nice one rovers]

All I know is the git is solely responsible for the extermination of an entire species. My kids would love to go and see dragons in a dragon zoo, but no, denied the pleasure by our so called patron saint!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Boomstick wrote:

Nope. The Angles, Jutes and Saxons were the Germanic tribes that formed the people known as the Anglo Saxons. The Celts fcuked off to Scotland, wales, britanny and to a lesser extent Cornwall, when the Anglo saxons started throwing their weight around.
Oh and the bloke who built the current castle at conisbrough was an English nobleman. (If thats the castle your on about).

All that said, i'm still open to the possibility of having a bit of Norman or Norse blood in me. I wouldnt mind getting one of those genetic tests to find out.

Opinion being passed off as fact there spadger. The genetic heritage of the English is still a matter of serious academic study. The most recent authoritative studies suggest that the majority of the genetic make up of the English comes from ancient settlers from the Near-East, via Northern Spain. Celts in other words, with only a minority of our genes coming from later North European invaders.

The Angles, Saxons and Jutes may well have been successful invaders, but it's highly unlikely that they would have had the organisational ability to ethnically cleanse the indigenous Celtic people. Far more likley that they were a minority, but powerful ruling elite and eventually mixed their genes. The reason that the extremities of the British Isles remained more pure Celtic is simply that they were never invaded by the newcomers, rather than that all the Celts from England f**ked off there.

Doesn't fit in with the founding myth that many would like to beleive, but hey-ho.

As for Conisbrough Castle being built by an \"English\" nobleman, Hamelin and William de Warrenne may well have considered themselves to be \"English\" in that they lived in England, but they were of course part of the French nobility, being descended from Geoffrey de Anjou. There was no such thing as an \"English\" nobility in those days if you think \"English\" means \"Anglo-Saxon\". The ruling elite at the time were French-born, typically spoke French and had French names; their memory was only Anglicized by historians in later centuries. King Stephen actually called himself \"Etienne du Blois\". Our iconic monarch, Richard the Lionheart was known to his mates as \"Couer de Lion\" and spent less than a year of his reign in England. It was only later legend-making that turned him into some sort of English hero. His dad, HenryII was known as \"Henri Courtmantel\" and again, spent more time in France than he did in England. He died whilst fighting for the throne of Anjou against the King of France and was buried (as was Coeur de Lion later) at l'Abbeye de Fontevraud.

English? Not an Anglo-Saxon among em.

We're a mongrel breed cocker. We're also one of the most confused people on earth when it comes to understanding our history. It's a wonderfully rich, complex and dynamic story that defies being put into simple terms. Our interwoven, multi-ethnic, multi-cultural genetic and cultural heritage is something to be deeply proud of and fascinated by.

[bobjimwilly]

Just want to say I am proud to be english; I'm proud of our history, our heritage, our education system, our NHS and our forces.

I also don't class myself as British, does anyone else? If people abroad asked me which country I was from, I would never say \"the UK\" or britain?  

[Thinwhiteduke]

bobjimwilly wrote:

Just want to say I am proud to be english; I'm proud of our history, our heritage, our education system, our NHS and our forces.

I also don't class myself as British, does anyone else? If people abroad asked me which country I was from, I would never say \"the UK\" or britain?  

With you there.

Im English end of story. Its what I put on every application form I fill in and how I refer to myself when I am asked my antionality.

[CusworthRovers]

Nobody knows our true lineage in reality. We may be Huns, Vandals, Goths, Celts, Norse, Moorish, Saxons, Germanic....but what the history books will state is that before these set foot on any of Englands green and pleasant lands, there was a form of caravan, flat back truck and white van settled in before them.

[bobjimwilly]

CusworthRovers wrote:

Nobody knows our true lineage in reality. We may be Huns, Vandals, Goths, Celts, Norse, Moorish, Saxons, Germanic....but what the history books will state is that before these set foot on any of Englands green and pleasant lands, there was a form of caravan, flat back truck and white van settled in before them.

Yes, before this land was named England, it was indeed, Pikeyland

[BillyStubbsTears]

bobjimwilly wrote:

Just want to say I am proud to be english; I'm proud of our history, our heritage, our education system, our NHS and our forces.

I also don't class myself as British, does anyone else? If people abroad asked me which country I was from, I would never say \"the UK\" or britain?  

That's kind of what I mean about our confusion about our history and culture. We don't have an 'English' armed forces for example, or NHS.

As for your nationality, your passport says 'British'. England is not mentioned

But we're all confused, right the way to the top. We have a Queen who is the first one with the name Elizabeth to rule over our National State. Yet she is called Elizabeth II.

We have an Olympic team that calls itself Team GB when that is not the name of the country it represents.

I suspect not one person in 20 could ( without looking it up) tell you the correct legal name of our country, when it came into existence and why the dates 1801 and 1707 are important in our national history. We all claim to be deeply patriotic, but we don't really know what it is we're being passionate about.

[Dutch Uncle]

Ok I will join this thread even though David is my patron saint and not George    

Living abroad as I do and being a boring pedant I always say I am 'British but not English' since the average Dutchman hasn't a clue about Wales. Mind you I have ample chance for revenge since 'Holland' is not the same as The Netherlands. Holland is actually the combination of only 2 of the 12 Dutch provinces - North and South Holland and their inhabitants, when asked what country they come from, often say they come from Holland to the annoyance of the other 10 provinces. That's how I feel when Dutch people say British - oh you mean English.

I have no problem someone saying they are English first as long as they do not deny also being British, in fact I am even more happy if they say they are People's Republic of South Yorkshire first. I tell my daughter she was born in The Netherlands, is 50% Irish, 25% Welsh and 25% People's Republic of South Yorkshire reflecting her grandparents and she is comfortable with that. The decisive point for me with my 50/50 parental split is that I was born in Wales and it's where I first lived. My Allegiance to Doncaster and Doncaster Rovers is lifelong, indisputable, and stems from where my formative educational years were spent.  

It's a cosmopolitan world and I see that as an enormously positive thing.

[BobG]

And Fonetvrault, Billy, is one hell of a place to visit. Staggering. And guess what, one of the 4 coffins there (King Henry II of England, his wife Eleanor of Aquitaine, their son King Richard I of England, their daughter Joan) had, until about 20 years ago, a wooden 'pole' clasped in the hands of the effigy of, I think, Henry. Until some arse wipe Englishman stole it.

Well worth a visit, and if you ever do, carry on to take a look at Chinon too. That was one stonking castle that Richard Couer de Lion used to frequent. Nice town as well.

Cheers

BobG

[Old Popsider]

Dutch Uncle wrote:

Ok I will join this thread even though David is my patron saint and not George    

Living abroad as I do and being a boring pedant I always say I am 'British but not English' since the average Dutchman hasn't a clue about Wales. Mind you I have ample chance for revenge since 'Holland' is not the same as The Netherlands. Holland is actually the combination of only 2 of the 12 Dutch provinces - North and South Holland and their inhabitants, when asked what country they come from, often say they come from Holland to the annoyance of the other 10 provinces. That's how I feel when Dutch people say British - oh you mean English.

I have no problem someone saying they are English first as long as they do not deny also being British, in fact I am even more happy if they say they are People's Republic of South Yorkshire first. I tell my daughter she was born in The Netherlands, is 50% Irish, 25% Welsh and 25% People's Republic of South Yorkshire reflecting her grandparents and she is comfortable with that. The decisive point for me with my 50/50 parental split is that I was born in Wales and it's where I first lived. My Allegiance to Doncaster and Doncaster Rovers is lifelong, indisputable, and stems from where my formative educational years were spent.  

It's a cosmopolitan world and I see that as an enormously positive thing.

Don't forget, Dutch, the we have Holland in England!!

[bobjimwilly]

Oh, I know I am British, don't get me wrong, and I also know it says it on my passport BST  
But I see myself as more english than British, if you get what I mean? ie I'm not part engish, part welsh, part scottish, or even a combination of the 3.

And if you asked 99% of welsh or scottish people, they wouldn't say they were British either.

Infact, if you ask most people from most countries outside of Europe, and you said you were from Britain, they would probably say \"ah, you mean the UK\"? Then you have to go into length conversation about the difference between UK, Britain, England, Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Doncaster, Thorne...  

[Old Popsider]

bobjimwilly wrote:

Oh, I know I am British, don't get me wrong, and I also know it says it on my passport BST  
But I see myself as more english than British, if you get what I mean? ie I'm not part engish, part welsh, part scottish, or even a combination of the 3.

And if you asked 99% of welsh or scottish people, they wouldn't say they were British either.

Infact, if you ask most people from most countries outside of Europe, and you said you were from Britain, they would probably say \"ah, you mean the UK\"? Then you have to go into length conversation about the difference between UK, Britain, England, Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Doncaster, Thorne...  

Anyway, I'm something else besides English - I'm a YORKSHIREMAN born and bred and bloody proud of it!!    

[jucyberry]

You know what shocks me about this thread?




I had to get to page two before someone (nods to popsider) says what I have read so many times and something the fella always swears...

YORKSHIRE first

I always see myself as Norfolk then English, I live in England after all. I am not jingoistic, I love the fact that our country is as diverse and multicultural as it is.
The human race is nomadic, we are an ever changing rainbow of a species..

I am proud of the fact that I live in the home of the greatest Queen our country has ever known  (in my opinion anyway..lol) I too would love to have that genitic test thingy, but as My mothers family settled here in the 1600's from what my family have found out, I think I would turn out to have diluted Flemish blood in my veins..

Happy to say tho a quarter of it is Yorkshire tho.. Thanks nan..

[Dagenham Rover]

Thinwhiteduke wrote:

I challenged my daughters Primary School Teacher on what they we telling the children regarding St Georges day or what they were doing to celebrate, I was told they will do nothing because it would be unfair to discriminate on the non English/ Christian pupils.  

It would be interesting if you were to challenge them again as to what they were doing to celebrate just before Dhwali (probably misspelled it but I mean that festival of light)or one of the other big festivals.

I wonder if you would get the same answer??????

[Hounslowrover]

Surely the point is that Diwhali and Eid are religious festivals, thus celebrated like Christmas and Easter.  As a retired Head in a London school I can say all were celebrated, especially the Christian ones, St George's Day was an assembly topic, it's not a religious festival, a bit like other patron saints here.
Interestingly when we had to do our admission forms with parents, no-religion was the second highest part filled in.  Often, Asian kids of all religions and generations knew more about Chrisianity than the indigenous population whose parents chose the no-religion category.

[RobTheRover]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

my family name is an old French word for a German

Sounds like you have an exotic name, BST.  And I thought Denaby was full of B'Stards?

[Dagenham Rover]

Hounslowrover wrote:

Surely the point is that Diwhali and Eid are religious festivals, thus celebrated like Christmas and Easter.  As a retired Head in a London school I can say all were celebrated, especially the Christian ones, St George's Day was an assembly topic, it's not a religious festival, a bit like other patron saints here.
Interestingly when we had to do our admission forms with parents, no-religion was the second highest part filled in.  Often, Asian kids of all religions and generations knew more about Chrisianity than the indigenous population whose parents chose the no-religion category.

Perhaps celebrate is the wrong word.
However at my sons old London school I'm afraid a  bigger emphasis was put on non christian festivals.

We were summoned to the head one day my lad accused of racism by a member of staff
his crime he had stuck his thumb on somebody elses forehead and said \"youve got a spot now\" he was 6 years old at the time and couldn't spell racism never mind know what it mean't.
 She was quite happily telling me a note was going to be put on his school record that he had been involved in a racist incident and allsorts. Eventually after taking it much further we did get an apology from the authoritys.

On another occasion I was talking quite nicely to the same teacher and I used the phrase \"well they can all be little monkeys at times\" and was promptly told that I should be careful making comments like that as it could be deemed as racist!

And I wonder why I give up sometimes

 :S