bradford city more than a minutes silence

[not on facebook]

that fire

i cant recall the exact date but it was last game of season when bradford city
were playing lincoln city at valley parade.

this link is shocking to say the least so please think before you click

they say you recall what you was doing when jfk was shot,when this fire was shown
on are tv's i was at home getting me hair cut.

iam told since this day that bradford city football club have allways have the colour
black put into their playing kit as rememberance i guess,nice touch.

after watching the link like me you will sit there in silence for a long time
trying to figure football/life/world out.....

...and more than likely draw the same blank as me....sorry if offends/upsets

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rD4jI1x6SU

[Donnywolf]

I watched it unfold live on TV ... I made a tasteless remark (black humour) as it was happening for which I am still truly sorry

However all the people on this Forum of a certain age will not have lived through this and Hillsborough and Heysel Stadium and the age of crowd unrest and so I say Bradford and the others were REAL turning points in Ground design Ground safety etc and were responsible for the state of current stadia across the UK

So when you want to complain about being made to sit down in all seater modern Football Grounds and you complain just spare a thought for those in these pictures who inadvertantly made it happen

YOU would NEVER want a repeat of any of these events (believe me) ... and following the Taylor Report it should not. And after thos events people were treated LESS like animals they (thankfully) began to behave LESS like animals though the scenes at Hillsborough and Luton shows there is still a problem in a minority of cases

[BillyStubbsTears]

Could have happened to any of us. That's the sobering thing. All grounds were death traps in them days.

Anybody who was on the away end at Goodison in that cup match in 1985, and was carried 3 yards sideways off their feet when the surges started knows that Hillsborough could easily have happened there.

[Snods Shinpad 2]

A kid I knew at school passed away at Valley Parade. I think he was the youngest victim.

He used to join in the kickarounds at lunchtime and then one Monday morning the Headmaster called an assembly and told us the news.

I think he went with his Grandad, who also didn't make it.

I also watched it on telly at the time and then had to sit through Heysel a few weeks later. Dark times for footy, and thinking about it now god knows how I was let out of the house to go and watch a game with all that was going on.

[not on facebook]

now the hillsboro disaster as been brought up i recall going to a sheff weds v chelsea
game,must have been a div2 game as it was well before the disaster mentioned.

chelsea had the leppings lane seats and the middle pen on away end standing
the pens either side of middle pens were closed off.

the seats were full so i was going throught that type of tunnel that takes you
into leppings lane pens,once we got into the pen at back it was rammed,with more chelsea comming in behind us.

your feet were picked up from the ground and yer body just went with the flow/crush turning sideways leaning this and that way.it was som'ert you never experienced before
and felt odd,you was not gasping for air but all and sundry could sense inside that pen that the police should open pens or a pen either side to help out.

SYP just stood their with battons drawn and any fan that try to cilmb into pen either siside were hit back into the middle pen.this made the chelsea even more upset.

did not register with me that day how wrong things could have gone untill the
liverpool/forest game.

i did hear that either west ham or spurs fans had gone through the same experience at
hillsboro around the sametime.

makes you think if 'owt

[RobTheRover]

The independant enquiry into Hillsborough is underway, led by the Bishop of Liverpool.

Hopefully, the truth will come out.

[jonrover]

I regard myself very fortunate I wasn't in that fire on that fateful 11th May 1985 as my old man left it too late to get some tickets. My school pals and twin brothers Richard and Robert Ormondroyd and their father perished in the fire, and I still sometimes think that it could easily have been me and my old man.

The thing that really upsets a lot of Bradfordians is the fact Stafford Higginbottom the Chairman, wasn't charged with the death of those 56 people. Many still believe it was a timed device that started the fire but went off too early, so they could redevelop the ground with the insurance money.

[not on facebook]

bloody hell jonrover i never heard that look on things before about a timed device
that might have started the fire

i have allways been on understanding it was down to build up of litter under the
stands and a fag end that maybe been thrown away was the cause.

[scuzzer]

oslorovers wrote:

now the hillsboro disaster as been brought up i recall going to a sheff weds v chelsea
game,must have been a div2 game as it was well before the disaster mentioned.

chelsea had the leppings lane seats and the middle pen on away end standing
the pens either side of middle pens were closed off.

the seats were full so i was going throught that type of tunnel that takes you
into leppings lane pens,once we got into the pen at back it was rammed,with more chelsea comming in behind us.

your feet were picked up from the ground and yer body just went with the flow/crush turning sideways leaning this and that way.it was som'ert you never experienced before
and felt odd,you was not gasping for air but all and sundry could sense inside that pen that the police should open pens or a pen either side to help out.

SYP just stood their with battons drawn and any fan that try to cilmb into pen either siside were hit back into the middle pen.this made the chelsea even more upset.

did not register with me that day how wrong things could have gone untill the
liverpool/forest game.

i did hear that either west ham or spurs fans had gone through the same experience at
hillsboro around the sametime.

makes you think if 'owt

I had exactly the same experience as that in the middle pen of the Leppings Lane with Liverpool in a league game about 6 weeks before the disaster. I remember being trapped half facing away from the pitch with one arm up and one by my side, and only one foot on the ground for most of the first half.

It was without doubt the scariest experience i've ever had anywhere never mind in a football ground and could easilly have gone the same way as the semi final.

[jonrover]

oslorovers wrote:

bloody hell jonrover i never heard that look on things before about a timed device
that might have started the fire

i have allways been on understanding it was down to build up of litter under the
stands and a fag end that maybe been thrown away was the cause.

I was only 11 at the time but I can vividly remember plenty of fingers pointing towards the chairman's direction with regards to who was responsible. The club had been advised to clear away the rubbish from under the stand as it was a fire risk and did nothing. Also, why were the turnstiles locked and no fire extinguishers in the stand? That in its self is negligent in my opinion.

I've just read an article about the experience of Gabby Logan, who's old man was assistant manager at the time. She was a very lucky girl, and what Terry witnessed and went through is incomprehensible.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article1131387.ece

[Filo]

This commentator must have been in that stand by the sound of it

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkTFG9c1QfY[/video]

[Stu The Tickhill Red]

oslorovers wrote:

that fire

i cant recall the exact date but it was last game of season when bradford city
were playing lincoln city at valley parade.

this link is shocking to say the least so please think before you click

they say you recall what you was doing when jfk was shot,when this fire was shown
on are tv's i was at home getting me hair cut.

iam told since this day that bradford city football club have allways have the colour
black put into their playing kit as rememberance i guess,nice touch.

after watching the link like me you will sit there in silence for a long time
trying to figure football/life/world out.....

...and more than likely draw the same blank as me....sorry if offends/upsets

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rD4jI1x6SU

Just sat and watched this twice with tears in my eyes.

I remember sitting watching it happen on tv with my mum and dad, its was the most shocking thing I had ever seen. Those d**kheads that kicked off at Luton and Weds this weekend should take a long hard look at themselves and then watch this, maybe then they may realise how quich something can get out of hand and that there is more to football than winning.

[Superspy]

i watched this for the first time a few months ago when dad told me about it, i hadnt heard of it before then. i can honestly say i watched it, and i cried, like, properly cried. i dont need to see it again.

[BobG]

I remember it only too well. Just like I remember Hillsborough. And Heysel. And Ibrox. And the Marchioness. And the Herald of Free Enterprise. Whilst I agree that stadia were poor in those days, these links don't scream 'vengeance' or 'conspiracy' to me. No. They remind me of just what it is to be a human being. We are not perfect. We never will be. Things go wrong. All the time. Despite the best efforts of the Helath & Safety Gaulieters there will always be tragedies. Life is a bitch. It always will be. Death is the natural condition of us every one. So look out for yourself and look out for others for that brief, brief period whilst we are amongst the living is the message I take from this thread.

Mind you, at the risk of incurring the wrath of BST again, I still do think that Hillsborough was a special case. I didn't know there is now an independant enquiry. Thanks for that snippet Rob. I hope, whatever its conclusions, that it is credible, painstaking and thorough. There was and is too much mystery about Hillsborough. Too much unexplained. Too much slanted favourably, without credible explanation, towards preserving the power and the status of a few privildged people and institutions. And I hope, when the happy day dawns, that every single newspaper in this country turns round, in 6 inch bold black headlines and says 'Shut the f**k Up' to the Sun.

Cheers

BobG

[JonWallsend]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

Could have happened to any of us. That's the sobering thing. All grounds were death traps in them days.

Anybody who was on the away end at Goodison in that cup match in 1985, and was carried 3 yards sideways off their feet when the surges started knows that Hillsborough could easily have happened there.

Too right, BST. I was actually stood up on a barrier that ran along the length of the front of the stand at Goodison that day so was alright during the match but coming out we had to leave through a narrow tunnel with, if I remember it correctly, a stone bollard in the middle. There was a huge crush up against this bollard with people completely unaware continuing to push and add to the congestion. I remember thinking at the time, as a 14 year old, it was quite frightening but with it being pre Hillsborough, nobody really panicked as that was just the way things happened and you knew you'd get out.
My dad and I have often commented since as to how near that was to being a potential disaster.

[Sandy Lane]

This is one of the most saddest, most gut-wrenching things I've read in a long time, and more so because of your personal reflections.

It certainly makes you feel your own mortality and wonder why some lived and some didn't.  I believe in God, but not so much organized religion - does that make sense?  But your heart aches for those people. And anger if it was preventable. I can't help but wonder why it spread so fast though...

Slightly off topic, and not to diminish this thread, but I live in NY, and my company lost 9 people in 9/11 and every so often I'll talk to some of the people who were there and also other friends who worked in the towers, and their thoughts and feelings are similar.  Unsurprisingly, a lot of them are just not the same any more.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BobG wrote:

I remember it only too well. Just like I remember Hillsborough. And Heysel. And Ibrox. And the Marchioness. And the Herald of Free Enterprise. Whilst I agree that stadia were poor in those days, these links don't scream 'vengeance' or 'conspiracy' to me. No. They remind me of just what it is to be a human being. We are not perfect. We never will be. Things go wrong. All the time. Despite the best efforts of the Helath & Safety Gaulieters there will always be tragedies. Life is a bitch. It always will be. Death is the natural condition of us every one. So look out for yourself and look out for others for that brief, brief period whilst we are amongst the living is the message I take from this thread.

Mind you, at the risk of incurring the wrath of BST again, I still do think that Hillsborough was a special case. I didn't know there is now an independant enquiry. Thanks for that snippet Rob. I hope, whatever its conclusions, that it is credible, painstaking and thorough. There was and is too much mystery about Hillsborough. Too much unexplained. Too much slanted favourably, without credible explanation, towards preserving the power and the status of a few privildged people and institutions. And I hope, when the happy day dawns, that every single newspaper in this country turns round, in 6 inch bold black headlines and says 'Shut the fcuk Up' to the Sun.

Cheers

BobG

No wrath from me Bob. I was too close to the event and it still holds raw memories.

I was working for the engineers responsible for Hillsborough. I worked there in 87-88 as a student, and one of my first jobs as a graduate engineer in June 89 was testing the surviving crush barriers on the Leppings Lane end - surrounded by mangled steel from the failed barriers and ripped up fencing where the fans died, being video'd by the solicitors from the police and council who were desperate for us to fcuk  up so they could point the finger at us. A horrific experience and one I never want to go through again.

Everyone was to blame that day. The club, the engineers, the police, the council. And every one of us fans who had ever lost individual control and become part of a senseless mob. Whatever the institutional failings, the primary cause of 90-odd people dying was several thousand others pushing their way into the terrace. And every one of us above the age of 35 had been there and done that. Having a laugh, losing control. TAKING control by becoming a mob. It could have happened at Goodison. It could have happened at any ground on any Saturday.

I'm with you in believing that things were hushed up. But equally, the collective guilt of football fans was never properly addressed. That's equally scandalous.

[BobG]

Now that, Billy, is an observation that does you proud. I haven't realy considered it at all - even after all these years. Despite my dislike of the H&S police, I sit here blindly mouthing off about all and sundry whilst assuming that safety is a 'right', or it is something that is given, expected, assumed. Of course it's not. But we all, well, all except you!, do assume it. I am glad though, that via another route, I did get to the conclusion that we are all our brothers' keepers.

Cheers

BobG

[en aitch]

And there sits the great pile of collective responsibility: Each of us are responsible for our own actions.

Collectively, most football supporters of a certain age have, one way or another used mob mentality to achieve an end - even if it's running on the pitch at the end of a successful venture.

I always used to go into that stand when we played Bradford (except the year that Snod G scored the winner) ... I do want to stand at football matches ... I do want people to think about their actions - but in the heat of the moment who knows what any of us will do.

I had never heard the theory of the \"Timed Device\" .... I find it incredible - although it's not beyond the realms of possibility that a chairman may consider burning down a stand, is it?

[idler]

I live in Bradford and know lots of City fans but have never heard that story (timed device) before. I'll ask my mate while I'm out for a pint,he's barely missed a game home or away in years.
The stand was going to be demolished at the end of that season so I don't see a link. More than one of Stafford Hegginbotham's businesses allegedly had problems with fire, that probably led a lot of people putting 2 and 2 together. The other thing is someone supposedly told a policeman in the stand there was a fire underneath but was told to sit down.
Later some crisp packets were found that survived the fire and were years old, showing how rubbish had slipped under and built up. Finally the stand root was timber covered in felt and pitch, once that got going there was no chance. Luckily all of my friend survived but still bear the scars, that's what upset so many when some Leeds fans set fire to the chip stall at Odsal.

[not on facebook]

iam sure i heard that chubby brown was in a spot of bother for passing/joking
some comment about the fire not too long after the event,could have been on stage
in the bradford area if memory serves us right

[idler]

He supposedly said something like, you ********s had a barbeque and nobody invited me. Cue near riot.
I don't know anyone who was there so it might be exaggerated or just an urban myth. I'll ask Mick tonight.

[phil o sophical]

The one image that has stayed with me ever since i saw the origional footage was the guy walking slowly along the edge of the pitch completely on fire with the police and supporters trying to put the flames out and John Helms comments \" the poor man, he came to watch a football match\"

[not on facebook]

idler....that is word to word what i was told chubby brown had said some must have
some creadence

[idler]

Yeah I think so too. I think he was on at what used to be the Mecca on Manningham Lane.
My mate reckons the timer theory is a load of crap, he doesn't know any city fans who have heard or related that story. He was still upset talking about it last night.

[PDX_Rover]

I remember watching it on TV too.  I think it was a Sunday game right? Still very vivid. We all watched it in disbelief and I remember my stepdad crying I think.

[idler]

No it was a Saturday aft. game. We went shopping top side of Bradford and saw the smoke. The brother-in-law called in and said as an aside that a stand at city had caught fire. We put calender on and couldn't believe it when we saw how bad it was.
One of those who died had been at our house on the Wdnesday giving us a quote for double glazing. He was telling us how is life was improving as after his divorce he'd met a nice young lady. He was one of those trapped near the locked door at the back of the stand,only identified by his car keys.
That's how tragic it was, emotions still run high in Bradford about the whole episode.
You still get morons trying to sell Telegraph & Argus papers from the day and one idiot was even trying to sell a match day progromme with the description CHARRED. You couldn't make it up could you?