Northern Ireland deal

[River Don]

Is it an exception?

The UK isn't really so well governed is it

I'm not saying the UK might not be better off economically by succumbing to Europe... But would it really be better off?

The UK is a special place. Modern capitalism began here. It is the crucible of democracy. The industrial revolution was forged here.

Can we really afford to give up our independence. Can we ?

[River Don]

I suppose what I'm saying is. It's a lot to give up. It is a lot to give up.

[SydneyRover]

Is it an exception?

The UK isn't really so well governed is it

I'm not saying the UK might not be better off economically by succumbing to Europe... But would it really be better off?

The UK is a special place. Modern capitalism began here. It is the crucible of democracy. The industrial revolution was forged here.

Can we really afford to give up our independence. Can we ?

This is really re-opening the worn can RD, the governance of the UK for most of the time since 2010 has gone against conventional thinking.

The UK is special but a lot of what has happened has been built on stuff not so special such as slavery and expansionism and the wealth that it generated, I haven't forgotten that other countries did similar.

''Can we really afford to give up our independence. Can we ?''

This all depends on what is being given up and what the gains may be.

I keep going back to control of the media, if the media is stopped from spewing out lies and held responsible then government would be a whole lot different. I won't dip into recent developments in the uk but just look at recent events in the US.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The EU didn't do anything to Greece.

The ECB did. And it was very bad as I said repeatedly at the time. And as we've said, we weren't in the Euro, so there's no lesson to be gained there.

[i_ateallthepies]

Great Britain has been losing its global dominance for generations and was nothing to do with being part of the the EU.  Overlooking the fact that the UK always had a significant influence on the direction and laws of the EU is a bit disingenuous.  It was never them imposing their will on us.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Great Britain has been losing its global dominance for generations and was nothing to do with being part of the the EU.  Overlooking the fact that the UK always had a significant influence on the direction and laws of the EU is a bit disingenuous.  It was never them imposing their will on us.

Aye, nobody seems to remember that 27 countries were giving part of their sovereignty to us at the same time.

[BillyStubbsTears]

There's something unsettling about certain politicians on the Right pushing the sovereignty issue. I'm sure some of them are full on old school Little Englanders, but not all. And that's where I get the unsettling feeling.

In a world dominated by two huge powers, in the USA and China, a country like the UK simply doesn't have a huge amount of individual freedom to do anything with its sovereignty.

We aren't going to go to war unilaterally.

We aren't going to apply political muscle around the world on our own agenda.

Economic deals with the giants will be massively skewed in their favour, because they are so much bigger than us.

So what does sovereignty actually mean?

Seems to me that outside the EU, we are both politically and economically weaker than within it. We have sovereignty on paper but it doesn't mean anything in practice.

Then, as always, you should ask: qui bono - who gains from this?

Strategically there was only one country who stood to benefit from a weaker UK and perhaps an avalanche setting off the break up up the EU. That was Russia.

Russia knew it couldn't compete against USA and China on the global scale, but it still had aspirations to be cock of the walk in central/eastern Europe. That's why Putin hates the EU and had constantly tried to undermine it.

That is so obvious. To anyone who studies it. Russia saw itself as a massive beneficiary of Brexit. (Of course the world has no changed and Russia has overplayed its hand and strengthened the EU as a result - but I'm talking about 7-10 years ago here).

What unsettles me is the motives of the intelligent people on the Right who must surely have known this.

[danumdon]

This country has been struggling to manage its dwindling sense of leadership and authority in the world since before the second world war. It was always going to be very different for us as a pre eminent superpower who has been overtaken and has had to fall back into the pack of lower status/tier nations that have some world presence. Our soft power is still a weapon in the wider world but we now live in a world of East and West super powers, a three way economic superblock alongside a fractured structure of unaligned but rapidly rising regional powers who don't/won't throw in their lot with the west just for the sake of it. When you also have to deal with a religious undertone to this changing world then it just adds to the complexities we as a nation have to contend with now post Brexit.

Of all the problems and issues we now have to contend with as an "independent" nation outside the main economic power blocks the biggest will be finding a path for ourselves that will allow us to align with our chief trading nations now and in the future, remember the EU is currently one of the biggest trading blocks just now but will that be the case in 10/15 years, with the speed at which developments are taking place in the world, especially in the far east. pacific and south American regions.

We then need to ask ourselves, would we as an integral part of the EU have been in a better position to take any sort of advantage of any economic opportunities that can be gained in these regions? id say regardless of the reduced economic position at it stands now, we would not have been better placed. It was obvious for a great many years that the EU was run under an unwritten understanding that the French and Germans would assume the lead and create a situation where the UK would always be required to pick up its substantial tab but not be allowed to have conditions created that would benefit it beyond what the "leaders£ themselves would allow. Voting in the EU parliament would always be aligned in such a manner that would ensure this outcome.

Now that we stand outside the EU orbit of authority we have a possibility, with the possibility of electing a proactive and inspiring government that will create the situation where we can align our interests with the EU where its beneficial but also look further afield and work with the US and developing nations and regions in the fields where we can match and beat the rest of the EU, be it in finance, technology, education, AI and scientific developments. If we get the right people in place to allow us to exploit this advantage of being outside the overbearing and closed shop attitude of the EU then we can still find our place in the world which in the future we can benefit from, look back and say, the step we made all these years ago, backwards as it looked at the time has been turned to our advantage over time.

I'll sit here and wait for all the mud slinging from the "we could of done all that in the EU" opinions but in my opinion, we could never do anything like that tied to the EU, if the last 40 years has not told us that as a "leading player" in the EU we would never be allowed by the Germans and French to strike out in directions that they would not be willing to peruse outside of their closed shop world of "price controls" and competitive advantage, in their favour.

I sense that the attitudes in the EU are changing towards the UK, they realise we still have our soft power and some pull in the world, recent developments have left the "big players" in the EU floundering  whilst the Uk has shown leadership, strength and guile in an uncertain time for everyone worldwide, The EU has shown with its suffocating and unrequited insistence to be the lead in all and everything that it still manages to isolate and prevent members from acting in their own best interests.

We as a country have always been different to the mainland Europeans, our interests have not always held sway when we were an integral part, by striding out now we can, with the right government leadership create our own way in the world, align when we need to and diverge when it suits us and us only.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You going to do the next Penny Mordaunt video DD?

[danumdon]

You going to do the next Penny Mordaunt video DD?

I'm not no, but i heard Starmer's asked for the master tapes as he's recently realised he has a great deal in common with Mordaunt, something about wooden and robotic i think it was, with an imagination to match.

[ravenrover]

I've obviously missed it in all the reoprts, I have not read the framework, but what checks are made on goods/produce crossing both ways from NI to SI if there is no border?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've obviously missed it in all the reoprts, I have not read the framework, but what checks are made on goods/produce crossing both ways from NI to SI if there is no border?

It's basically all reliant on good faith as far as I can see.

Goods travelling from UK to NI meant for consumption in NI can go across the Irish Sea without checks.

Goods going from UK to Ireland through NI require border checks in Irish Sea.

How they police what happens to the former and stop them going on into Ireland is anyone's guess. Sounds like a smuggler's paradise in an area where smuggling across the NI/Ireland border was rife before the SM.

[danumdon]

I've obviously missed it in all the reoprts, I have not read the framework, but what checks are made on goods/produce crossing both ways from NI to SI if there is no border?

It's basically all reliant on good faith as far as I can see.

Goods travelling from UK to NI meant for consumption in NI can go across the Irish Sea without checks.

Goods going from UK to Ireland through NI require border checks in Irish Sea.

How they police what happens to the former and stop them going on into Ireland is anyone's guess. Sounds like a smuggler's paradise in an area where smuggling across the NI/Ireland border was rife before the SM.

Sounds to me like some grown ups have finally stepped in and dragged the kids kicking and screaming home. In the greater scheme of things cross border traffic is such a small percentage of EU trade that to continue to treat this as a major issues was frankly ludicrous.

When you consider what level of smuggling and black market goods get trafficked into the EU from all parts of the world(mainly far east tat from China)this was like a piss drop in the ocean, but obviously a very big stick to beat the UK with.

Parasitic organisation gets found out for the scheming, manipulative blow hard's that they so desperately attempt to conceal.

[wilts rover]

There is something else. Germany, Italy, they are relatively new countries. It's not so difficult to accept change. The UK is so ancient giving up traditions is hard. Giving up control asks a lot

'Ancient'! The UK is 222 years old - only 20 years older than my house. It was formed by the Act of Union in 1801 - with a German King on the throne ruling it.

[wilts rover]

I've obviously missed it in all the reoprts, I have not read the framework, but what checks are made on goods/produce crossing both ways from NI to SI if there is no border?

None.

The protocol confirms the Irish Sea border. A massive new customs post is to be built at Larne (& a smaller one in Belfast) with a red (NI only) & green (SI onwards) lane. The EU will have real time access to UK customs data to check loads are delivered as specified.

As NI has to follow EU rules then goods made in NI will be to EU standard and there is no issue with them crossing the border.

https://belfastmedia.com/border-posts
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-54810373

[BillyStubbsTears]

There is something else. Germany, Italy, they are relatively new countries. It's not so difficult to accept change. The UK is so ancient giving up traditions is hard. Giving up control asks a lot

'Ancient'! The UK is 222 years old - only 20 years older than my house. It was formed by the Act of Union in 1801 - with a German King on the throne ruling it.

It's actually only 100 years and 3 months old. 2 years younger than my house.

[wilts rover]

There is something else. Germany, Italy, they are relatively new countries. It's not so difficult to accept change. The UK is so ancient giving up traditions is hard. Giving up control asks a lot

'Ancient'! The UK is 222 years old - only 20 years older than my house. It was formed by the Act of Union in 1801 - with a German King on the throne ruling it.

It's actually only 100 years and 3 months old. 2 years younger than my house.

Technical query - I am calling for a VAR on this one. I believe the United Kingdom was founded in 1801 when Great Britain annexed the Kingdom of Ireland to found the name United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland. It's current borders and territory and name were only revised in 1923.

What does the forum think? (Can't imagine this being controversial).

[BillyStubbsTears]

Isn't the official name now United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland?

Whatever the legal standing of the change in 1922, I'd have thought that having a major chunk of your landmass secede, and your name have to change as a result effectively means you are no longer the same country.

VAR. Over to you.

[Ldr]

I have to side with BST whilst understanding Wilts point

[BillyStubbsTears]

Let's wait and see what the Unionists say.

Some of them are spitting fire about the fact that the ECJ will still have jurisdiction in NI.

And as I've noted previously, the ongoing presence of NI in the SM makes a mockery of the insistence from Brexiteers that the 2016 vote was an unequivocal mandate to take the UK out of the SM.

Well, the DUP have now officially rejected this deal.

This bloke sums up what some of us have been saying for 7 years.

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1637810598753779712?s=20

[Glyn_Wigley]

Let's wait and see what the Unionists say.

Some of them are spitting fire about the fact that the ECJ will still have jurisdiction in NI.

And as I've noted previously, the ongoing presence of NI in the SM makes a mockery of the insistence from Brexiteers that the 2016 vote was an unequivocal mandate to take the UK out of the SM.

Well, the DUP have now officially rejected this deal.

This bloke sums up what some of us have been saying for 7 years.

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1637810598753779712?s=20

"Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

More correct is the dup won't accept any deal when it may lead to a devolved parliament run by sinn Fein....

[danumdon]

But this was exactly the thing, you say Greece was badly governed, the EU didn't exactly like the way we deal with things in this country and would never miss an opportunity to dip into our resources as and when they liked.

Remember the bill we got from them when Cameron and Osbourne where in charge, they wanted 2billion extra from us because they ASSUMED and ESTIMATED that our prostitutes and drug dealers had been doing too well and they needed the UK to play some extra vat into the EU coffers? did anyone else receive such a bill?, France?, Germany?, Italy? where was the methodology they used to work out how much was owed? Cameron and Osbourne made a big deal about not paying it and then later meekly paid it behind everyone's back.

IF you thought this was something that as a member of the EU we should be open to then, i have a bridge you might want to like to buy.

The fact we are now out of their jurisdiction means we don't get any of these pathetic demands again, and i'm all for that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

DD
Your post is a master example of how the media have addled people's brain in the issue of the EU.

The EU regulations on including hidden economy output in national figures applied and still does apply to all EU countries.

No-one was picking on the UK. Ok?

[Sprotyrover]

Great Britain has been losing its global dominance for generations and was nothing to do with being part of the the EU.  Overlooking the fact that the UK always had a significant influence on the direction and laws of the EU is a bit disingenuous.  It was never them imposing their will on us.

Aye, nobody seems to remember that 27 countries were giving part of their sovereignty to us at the same time.

Aye from all the evidence I have seen they been mainly giving us the part of their society they Don't want!

[Glyn_Wigley]

And, of course, now the UK has left the EU they ain't interested in the shadow economy any more, right?

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2022/734007/IPOL_STU(2022)734007_EN.pdf

[Glyn_Wigley]

Great Britain has been losing its global dominance for generations and was nothing to do with being part of the the EU.  Overlooking the fact that the UK always had a significant influence on the direction and laws of the EU is a bit disingenuous.  It was never them imposing their will on us.

Aye, nobody seems to remember that 27 countries were giving part of their sovereignty to us at the same time.

Aye from all the evidence I have seen they been mainly giving us the part of their society they Don't want!

Like our lovlies that Spain got and are now chucking out because they can?

[danumdon]

DD
Your post is a master example of how the media have addled people's brain in the issue of the EU.

The EU regulations on including hidden economy output in national figures applied and still does apply to all EU countries.

No-one was picking on the UK. Ok?

See, rather than let my mind be addled by the media i looked for the info myself beforehand and i drew a blank, i found plenty of info about the hidden economy, how big it is and how much its allegedly worth but nothing about how much EU member states have paid for this, so until either i find some data that tells me how much of EU members payments relate to this hidden economy or you can show me i'll remain a sceptic

So can you produce evidence to substantiate your positivity or is it just in your opinion?

[drfchound]

DD, a couple of days ago I wrote about the our unemployment number being as high as 1.5million in the 1974/79 Labour government period and was told that it never got that high.
So, I copied and pasted an article which stated what I had written but no evidence to the contrary has been mentioned by you know who.

[Glyn_Wigley]

DD, a couple of days ago I wrote about the our unemployment number being as high as 1.5million in the 1974/79 Labour government period and was told that it never got that high.
So, I copied and pasted an article which stated what I had written but no evidence to the contrary has been mentioned by you know who.

Ah yes, the article you copied and pasted but didn't say where from.

And that got it wrong. The UK unemployment figure for September 1978 was 1,130,200 and was not over 1,500,000. In fact, the highest it got during the 1974-79 Labour government was September 1977 - 1,193,600.

And at least I give a source.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LMUNRLTTGBM647S#

Just put the 1974 - 1979 dates in and see for yourself.

Do we get an acknowledgement of your wrongness from you as you expected from others, I wonder?