Brexit Negotiations

[BillyStubbsTears]

So the net payment works out at about the price of a Starbucks coffee per person per week. And that’s before you consider the benefits that we get from free and unfettered trade with the largest trading bloc in the history of mankind.

Trading with a strong pound against a weak euro, ie difficult to export and cheaper to import.  Again it is one of the reasons we have no manufacturing industry in the U.K. and another reason to be out the eu.

Aidanstu

I don’t know where you get your facts from, but this is simply nonsense.

Here’s a graph of £ vs DeutschMark from the mid 70s to the mid 90s. During that period, our manufacturing industry collapsed and that of Germany went from strength to strength.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Also:

1) By What measure do you consider the pound to be strong against the Euro?

2) What on earth has this got to do with our membership of the EU?

[bpoolrover]

The last 1 stu, it's not about labour it's about any party, what they do is give a bit in 1 hand take it out the other but when all is done not much changes whichever party is in power

[aidanstu]

Also:

1) By What measure do you consider the pound to be strong against the Euro?

2) What on earth has this got to do with our membership of the EU?

Euro has always been cheaper than the pound, which because of the dictated trade arrangements within the EU mean it is cheaper to buy from the EURO zone and import and more difficult to sell British goods.
 
https://www.pounds2euro.com/Charts

https://group.atradius.com/publications/economic-research-weakening-euros-effect-uk-market-2015.html

i'm really unclear why you have chosen to use a graph which pre-dates the euro zone coming into effect? Unless your relying on Germany's Economic Miracle which related to Eucken's theories and banking structure and has nothing to do with the argument I was making. 

I know your obviously pro Europe, and you may have some valid arguments for being so, but this isn't one of them.

[Glyn_Wigley]

This site shows that manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen not because it has declined in value, but because other sectors have grown much greater in comparison to take a larger share of the total output. The value of the manufacturing sector has kept fairly stable over the past 40-odd years.

https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/

[Glyn_Wigley]

Also:

1) By What measure do you consider the pound to be strong against the Euro?

2) What on earth has this got to do with our membership of the EU?

Euro has always been cheaper than the pound, which because of the dictated trade arrangements within the EU mean it is cheaper to buy from the EURO zone and import and more difficult to sell British goods.
 
https://www.pounds2euro.com/Charts

https://group.atradius.com/publications/economic-research-weakening-euros-effect-uk-market-2015.html

i'm really unclear why you have chosen to use a graph which pre-dates the euro zone coming into effect? Unless your relying on Germany's Economic Miracle which related to Eucken's theories and banking structure and has nothing to do with the argument I was making. 

I know your obviously pro Europe, and you may have some valid arguments for being so, but this isn't one of them.

The fact that the Euro has always been less valuable than the pound is irrelevant. It's like saying the penny has always been less valuable than the pound. The differences happen when the exchange rates skew greatly one way or the other due to the sudden strength or weaknesses of one of the currencies concerned - businesses can cope with short term ups and downs as long as it is relatively stable so that they can plan long-term. Your own graph shows that the range of fluctuation over the last six months is about 7 cents, a range of movement over that period of about 6%, which I wouldn't say is particularly unstable for the currency market.

[aidanstu]

This site shows that manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen not because it has declined in value, but because other sectors have grown much greater in comparison to take a larger share of the total output. The value of the manufacturing sector has kept fairly stable over the past 40-odd years.

https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/

Are you seriously arguing that there hasn't been a decline in manufacturing and industry? Coal, Steel, british car making industries have been decimated because of cheap foreign imports, in part, from other EU states and because of the cheaper euro.

[Glyn_Wigley]

This site shows that manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen not because it has declined in value, but because other sectors have grown much greater in comparison to take a larger share of the total output. The value of the manufacturing sector has kept fairly stable over the past 40-odd years.

https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/

Are you seriously arguing that there hasn't been a decline in manufacturing and industry? Coal, Steel, british car making industries have been decimated because of cheap foreign imports, in part, from other EU states and because of the cheaper euro.

No, I'm saying they are arguing that. Presumably the decline in those industries you mention have been matched by increases in other areas of manufacturing otherwise the value of manufacturing wouldn't have stayed as stable as it has.

As for cheap foreign imports from the EU, the biggest factor in creating that cheapness has been the Single Market, not the value of the Euro. And the Single Market works both ways, it makes our exported goods cheaper in the EU too.

[aidanstu]

This site shows that manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen not because it has declined in value, but because other sectors have grown much greater in comparison to take a larger share of the total output. The value of the manufacturing sector has kept fairly stable over the past 40-odd years.

https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/

Are you seriously arguing that there hasn't been a decline in manufacturing and industry? Coal, Steel, british car making industries have been decimated because of cheap foreign imports, in part, from other EU states and because of the cheaper euro.

No, I'm saying they are arguing that. Presumably the decline in those industries you mention have been matched by increases in other areas of manufacturing otherwise the value of manufacturing wouldn't have stayed as stable as it has.

As for cheap foreign imports from the EU, the biggest factor in creating that cheapness has been the Single Market, not the value of the Euro. And the Single Market works both ways, it makes our exported goods cheaper in the EU too.

The single market would work if there was parity between the pound and the euro but there isn't. The euro zone has been an absolute disaster for Europe and the uk.

[BillyStubbsTears]

AS

1) I showed a graph of £/DM for two reasons.
i) It covered the period when our manufacturing industry collapsed.
ii) It showed that, during that period, as our manufacturing industry was collapsing and Getmany’s was going from strength to strength, the DM was progressively getting stronger against the pound. Which means the pound was getting weaker against the DM. But the weak pound didn’t save our manufacturing economy. And the string DM didn’t kill Germany’s.

2) You’re not REALLY saying that because one pound is worth more than one Euro, that the pound is stronger than the Euro? What about back when you got 3000 Italian Lire to the pound? You surely don’t think that meant that the pound was 3000 times stronger than the Lira?

3) Once again, what on earth does our membership of the EU have to do with the strength of the pound?

[wilts rover]

This site shows that manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen not because it has declined in value, but because other sectors have grown much greater in comparison to take a larger share of the total output. The value of the manufacturing sector has kept fairly stable over the past 40-odd years.

https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/

Are you seriously arguing that there hasn't been a decline in manufacturing and industry? Coal, Steel, british car making industries have been decimated because of cheap foreign imports, in part, from other EU states and because of the cheaper euro.

Rubbish. Those industries were deliberately run down under Margret Thatcher. In part as a deliberate attack to break the power of the unions in heavy industry but also to reorientate the economy away from manufacturing onto one based on financial services in the City of London and the profits from North Sea Oil. They had all gone before the euro was invented.

The car industry in particular has seen a huge benefit from being in the EU. It was the abilty to sell into the EU that led to Nissan and Toyota building factories here.

[aidanstu]

This site shows that manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen not because it has declined in value, but because other sectors have grown much greater in comparison to take a larger share of the total output. The value of the manufacturing sector has kept fairly stable over the past 40-odd years.

https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/

Are you seriously arguing that there hasn't been a decline in manufacturing and industry? Coal, Steel, british car making industries have been decimated because of cheap foreign imports, in part, from other EU states and because of the cheaper euro.

Rubbish. Those industries were deliberately run down under Margret Thatcher. In part as a deliberate attack to break the power of the unions in heavy industry but also to reorientate the economy away from manufacturing onto one based on financial services in the City of London and the profits from North Sea Oil. They had all gone before the euro was invented.

The car industry in particular has seen a huge benefit from being in the EU. It was the abilty to sell into the EU that led to Nissan and Toyota building factories here.

Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing

[wilts rover]

Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing

If I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167

I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.

In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.

So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?

[aidanstu]

Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing

If I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167

I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.

In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.

So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?

If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.

The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.

The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.



 

[Glyn_Wigley]

Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing

If I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167

I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.

In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.

So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?

If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.

The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.

The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.

Here's the EU's current commitment to open trading with China but I can't see anything that would have an adverse effect on British steel. Can you point me to it?

http://eeas.europa.eu/archives/docs/china/docs/joint_communication_to_the_european_parliament_and_the_council_-_elements_for_a_new_eu_strategy_on_china.pdf

[aidanstu]

Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing

If I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167

I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.

In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.

So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?

If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.

The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.

The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.

Here's the EU's current commitment to open trading with China but I can't see anything that would have an adverse effect on British steel. Can you point me to it?

http://eeas.europa.eu/archives/docs/china/docs/joint_communication_to_the_european_parliament_and_the_council_-_elements_for_a_new_eu_strategy_on_china.pdf

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11844952/Cheap-Chinese-imports-hits-profits-at-Britains-biggest-steel-maker.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34581945

Cheap Chinese steel imports would not be possible without the EU trade agreement with China. Can you point to where that agreement protects the the UK from cheap imports from China and in turn the British steel industry? If that was even considered during the drawing up of that policy it has failed significantly.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing

If I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167

I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.

In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.

So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?

If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.

The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.

The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.

Here's the EU's current commitment to open trading with China but I can't see anything that would have an adverse effect on British steel. Can you point me to it?

http://eeas.europa.eu/archives/docs/china/docs/joint_communication_to_the_european_parliament_and_the_council_-_elements_for_a_new_eu_strategy_on_china.pdf

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11844952/Cheap-Chinese-imports-hits-profits-at-Britains-biggest-steel-maker.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34581945

Cheap Chinese steel imports would not be possible without the EU trade agreement with China.

Both of those pre-date the document I linked to and are speculation at best anyway. That's why I went to the source document. Link to something in that.

Looking at your links say nothing about the EU's intentions with regards to Chinese imports anyway and absolutely nothing about the agreement you're talking about.

[aidanstu]

Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing

If I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167

I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.

In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.

So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?

If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.

The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.

The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.

Here's the EU's current commitment to open trading with China but I can't see anything that would have an adverse effect on British steel. Can you point me to it?

http://eeas.europa.eu/archives/docs/china/docs/joint_communication_to_the_european_parliament_and_the_council_-_elements_for_a_new_eu_strategy_on_china.pdf

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11844952/Cheap-Chinese-imports-hits-profits-at-Britains-biggest-steel-maker.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34581945

Cheap Chinese steel imports would not be possible without the EU trade agreement with China.

Both of those pre-date the document I linked to and are speculation at best anyway. That's why I went to the source document. Link to something in that.

Whats your point? Can you point to where that agreement protects the the UK from cheap imports from China and in turn the British steel industry? If that was even considered during the drawing up of that policy it has failed significantly.

The point i was making is that EU policies have damaged our manufacturing industry, you see to be suggesting that the EU is innocent of this because of a policy brought about in 2016, long after the damage has been done.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing

If I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167

I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.

In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.

So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?

If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.

The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.

The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.

Here's the EU's current commitment to open trading with China but I can't see anything that would have an adverse effect on British steel. Can you point me to it?

http://eeas.europa.eu/archives/docs/china/docs/joint_communication_to_the_european_parliament_and_the_council_-_elements_for_a_new_eu_strategy_on_china.pdf

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11844952/Cheap-Chinese-imports-hits-profits-at-Britains-biggest-steel-maker.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34581945

Cheap Chinese steel imports would not be possible without the EU trade agreement with China.

Both of those pre-date the document I linked to and are speculation at best anyway. That's why I went to the source document. Link to something in that.

Whats your point? Can you point to where that agreement protects the the UK from cheap imports from China and in turn the British steel industry? If that was even considered during the drawing up of that policy it has failed significantly.

The point i was making is that EU policies have damaged our manufacturing industry, you see to be suggesting that the EU is innocent of this because of a policy brought about in 2016, long after the damage has been done.

No, because it doesn't talk about it at all. It mentions nothing about changing the current rules, including imposition of Anti-Dumping Duty. That's my point. What's your point about it, or are you just blaming it without knowing anything about it?

[aidanstu]

Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing

If I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167

I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.

In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.

So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?

If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.

The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.

The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.

Here's the EU's current commitment to open trading with China but I can't see anything that would have an adverse effect on British steel. Can you point me to it?

http://eeas.europa.eu/archives/docs/china/docs/joint_communication_to_the_european_parliament_and_the_council_-_elements_for_a_new_eu_strategy_on_china.pdf

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11844952/Cheap-Chinese-imports-hits-profits-at-Britains-biggest-steel-maker.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34581945

Cheap Chinese steel imports would not be possible without the EU trade agreement with China.

Both of those pre-date the document I linked to and are speculation at best anyway. That's why I went to the source document. Link to something in that.

Whats your point? Can you point to where that agreement protects the the UK from cheap imports from China and in turn the British steel industry? If that was even considered during the drawing up of that policy it has failed significantly.

The point i was making is that EU policies have damaged our manufacturing industry, you see to be suggesting that the EU is innocent of this because of a policy brought about in 2016, long after the damage has been done.

No, because it doesn't talk about it at all. It mentions nothing about changing the current rules, including imposition of Anti-Dumping Duty. That's my point. What's your point about it, or are you just blaming it without knowing anything about it?

My point is the EU's trade deal with China has, due to the ability for the Chinese to import chap steel, damaged the UK's steel industry. I take it you don't have a counter argument based on any thing other than the trade deal doesn't speak about the steel industry directly?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Cheap Chinese steel imports would not be possible without the EU trade agreement with China.

I missed this gem from earlier.

There IS no EU trade agreement with China, yet your links blames cheap imports from China on one. Imports from China are currently - and have been for several years, based on the WTO rules that Brexit looks like hurtling us towards.

So it rather obviously IS possible to have cheap imports without a non-existent trade agreement.

[Glyn_Wigley]

My point is the EU's trade deal with China has, due to the ability for the Chinese to import chap steel, damaged the UK's steel industry. I take it you don't have a counter argument based on any thing other than the trade deal doesn't speak about the steel industry directly?

What EU trade deal?

There is no EU trade deal with China.

[aidanstu]

Although we all have different opinions, many which I don't agree with, it is nice to be able to have a reasoned debate about leaving the EU without people claiming I'm a racist.

[aidanstu]

My point is the EU's trade deal with China has, due to the ability for the Chinese to import chap steel, damaged the UK's steel industry. I take it you don't have a counter argument based on any thing other than the trade deal doesn't speak about the steel industry directly?

What EU trade deal?

There is no EU trade deal with China.

The document you posted, if you had bothered to read it, talks about the EU adopted a new strategy on China mapping out the European Union's relationship with China for the next five years. The strategy also includes a trade agenda with a strong focus on improving market access opportunities.

Without a trade deal we couldn't trade with china full stop.

[Glyn_Wigley]

My point is the EU's trade deal with China has, due to the ability for the Chinese to import chap steel, damaged the UK's steel industry. I take it you don't have a counter argument based on any thing other than the trade deal doesn't speak about the steel industry directly?

What EU trade deal?

There is no EU trade deal with China.

The document you posted, if you had bothered to read it, talks about the EU adopted a new strategy on China mapping out the European Union's relationship with China for the next five years. The strategy also includes a trade agenda with a strong focus on improving market access opportunities.

Without a trade deal we couldn't trade with china full stop.

Yes, I know, but it that's just general objectives without any actual propositions. 'market access' can mean a lot of things, it doesn't just relate to tariffs.

And, as it's talking about the future, how exactly has a non-extent trade agreement between the EU and China meant us importing cheap steel in the past as you have repeatedly claimed?

[aidanstu]

My point is the EU's trade deal with China has, due to the ability for the Chinese to import chap steel, damaged the UK's steel industry. I take it you don't have a counter argument based on any thing other than the trade deal doesn't speak about the steel industry directly?

What EU trade deal?

There is no EU trade deal with China.

The document you posted, if you had bothered to read it, talks about the EU adopted a new strategy on China mapping out the European Union's relationship with China for the next five years. The strategy also includes a trade agenda with a strong focus on improving market access opportunities.

Without a trade deal we couldn't trade with china full stop.

Yes, I know, but it that's just general objectives without any actual propositions. 'market access' can mean a lot of things, it doesn't just relate to tariffs.

And, as it's talking about the future, how exactly has a non-extent trade agreement between the EU and China meant us importing cheap steel in the past as you have repeatedly claimed?

Its not a claim, its a fact. So what happened is the YEN crashed and the Chinese started selling steel to the uk at ridiculously low prices. This  contributed the difficulties in the britain's ability to sell their own steel and the death nail in the industry this is well documented.

The EU and China do have a trade deal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/755139.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/755139.stm

[Glyn_Wigley]

My point is the EU's trade deal with China has, due to the ability for the Chinese to import chap steel, damaged the UK's steel industry. I take it you don't have a counter argument based on any thing other than the trade deal doesn't speak about the steel industry directly?

What EU trade deal?

There is no EU trade deal with China.

The document you posted, if you had bothered to read it, talks about the EU adopted a new strategy on China mapping out the European Union's relationship with China for the next five years. The strategy also includes a trade agenda with a strong focus on improving market access opportunities.

Without a trade deal we couldn't trade with china full stop.

Yes, I know, but it that's just general objectives without any actual propositions. 'market access' can mean a lot of things, it doesn't just relate to tariffs.

And, as it's talking about the future, how exactly has a non-extent trade agreement between the EU and China meant us importing cheap steel in the past as you have repeatedly claimed?

Its not a claim, its a fact. So what happened is the YEN crashed and the Chinese started selling steel to the uk at ridiculously low prices. This  contributed the difficulties in the britain's ability to sell their own steel and the death nail in the industry this is well documented.

The EU and China do have a trade deal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/755139.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/755139.stm

That was to get China to join the WTO and have bi-lateral trade on the same rules as everybody else - the rules the UK will default to if we have a hard Brexit. Most of those measures were the same sort of thing I meant when I said that 'market access' doesn't necessarily relate to tariff levels. The EU did not change one tariff on imports from China - in fact the only tariff reductions were on goods from the EU to China! So I'd still like to know how you blame the EU for the cheap imports of Chinese steel.

The Chinese sell steel at ridiculously low prices because it is state-subsidised. EU rules prevent member states from doing this. Do you really think that the EU is suddenly going to go soft on state-subsidised imports from outside the EU and allow them in cheaper when they don't allow it from their own members? Because I certainly don't.

[BillyStubbsTears]

AS

1) The Chinese currency is the Yuan. The Yen is Japan’s currency.

2) The Yuan hasn’t collapsed against either the Euro or the Pound. It has gradually got stronger over the past decade and is about 30% stronger against both than it was 10 years ago.


This is really worrying. You obviously think hard about this and have strong, passionate opinions. But your facts are consistently miles off the mark. If you’re really making your mind up on these manifestly wrong “facts”, don’t you think you ought to stop and have a think?

[Glyn_Wigley]

I was wondering what the Yen had to do with anything...

[aidanstu]

AS

1) The Chinese currency is the Yuan. The Yen is Japan’s currency.

2) The Yuan hasn’t collapsed against either the Euro or the Pound. It has gradually got stronger over the past decade and is about 30% stronger against both than it was 10 years ago.


This is really worrying. You obviously think hard about this and have strong, passionate opinions. But your facts are consistently miles off the mark. If you’re really making your mind up on these manifestly wrong “facts”, don’t you think you ought to stop and have a think?

My mistake re yen, if we are being pedantic renminbi is the official currency of the people's republic of china and yuan is the basic unit of renminbi.  I'm sure you didn't intend to be as patronising as that came across but would you care to explain why you think we import Chinese steel and whether you think this has contributed to the lack of steel industry in the UK. It seems to me that you are just blind to some of the problems the EU has caused the UK economically.