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Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 04, 2018, 11:55:51 amSo the net payment works out at about the price of a Starbucks coffee per person per week. And that’s before you consider the benefits that we get from free and unfettered trade with the largest trading bloc in the history of mankind. Trading with a strong pound against a weak euro, ie difficult to export and cheaper to import. Again it is one of the reasons we have no manufacturing industry in the U.K. and another reason to be out the eu.
So the net payment works out at about the price of a Starbucks coffee per person per week. And that’s before you consider the benefits that we get from free and unfettered trade with the largest trading bloc in the history of mankind.
Also:1) By What measure do you consider the pound to be strong against the Euro?2) What on earth has this got to do with our membership of the EU?
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on January 04, 2018, 02:24:30 pmAlso:1) By What measure do you consider the pound to be strong against the Euro?2) What on earth has this got to do with our membership of the EU?Euro has always been cheaper than the pound, which because of the dictated trade arrangements within the EU mean it is cheaper to buy from the EURO zone and import and more difficult to sell British goods. https://www.pounds2euro.com/Chartshttps://group.atradius.com/publications/economic-research-weakening-euros-effect-uk-market-2015.htmli'm really unclear why you have chosen to use a graph which pre-dates the euro zone coming into effect? Unless your relying on Germany's Economic Miracle which related to Eucken's theories and banking structure and has nothing to do with the argument I was making. I know your obviously pro Europe, and you may have some valid arguments for being so, but this isn't one of them.
This site shows that manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen not because it has declined in value, but because other sectors have grown much greater in comparison to take a larger share of the total output. The value of the manufacturing sector has kept fairly stable over the past 40-odd years.https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on January 04, 2018, 05:06:14 pmThis site shows that manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen not because it has declined in value, but because other sectors have grown much greater in comparison to take a larger share of the total output. The value of the manufacturing sector has kept fairly stable over the past 40-odd years.https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/Are you seriously arguing that there hasn't been a decline in manufacturing and industry? Coal, Steel, british car making industries have been decimated because of cheap foreign imports, in part, from other EU states and because of the cheaper euro.
Quote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 05:24:05 pmQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on January 04, 2018, 05:06:14 pmThis site shows that manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen not because it has declined in value, but because other sectors have grown much greater in comparison to take a larger share of the total output. The value of the manufacturing sector has kept fairly stable over the past 40-odd years.https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/Are you seriously arguing that there hasn't been a decline in manufacturing and industry? Coal, Steel, british car making industries have been decimated because of cheap foreign imports, in part, from other EU states and because of the cheaper euro. No, I'm saying they are arguing that. Presumably the decline in those industries you mention have been matched by increases in other areas of manufacturing otherwise the value of manufacturing wouldn't have stayed as stable as it has. As for cheap foreign imports from the EU, the biggest factor in creating that cheapness has been the Single Market, not the value of the Euro. And the Single Market works both ways, it makes our exported goods cheaper in the EU too.
Quote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 05:24:05 pmQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on January 04, 2018, 05:06:14 pmThis site shows that manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen not because it has declined in value, but because other sectors have grown much greater in comparison to take a larger share of the total output. The value of the manufacturing sector has kept fairly stable over the past 40-odd years.https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/Are you seriously arguing that there hasn't been a decline in manufacturing and industry? Coal, Steel, british car making industries have been decimated because of cheap foreign imports, in part, from other EU states and because of the cheaper euro. Rubbish. Those industries were deliberately run down under Margret Thatcher. In part as a deliberate attack to break the power of the unions in heavy industry but also to reorientate the economy away from manufacturing onto one based on financial services in the City of London and the profits from North Sea Oil. They had all gone before the euro was invented.The car industry in particular has seen a huge benefit from being in the EU. It was the abilty to sell into the EU that led to Nissan and Toyota building factories here.
Check out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturing
Quote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 06:31:22 pmCheck out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturingIf I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?
Quote from: wilts rover on January 04, 2018, 07:13:09 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 06:31:22 pmCheck out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturingIf I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.
Quote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 07:40:04 pmQuote from: wilts rover on January 04, 2018, 07:13:09 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 06:31:22 pmCheck out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturingIf I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.Here's the EU's current commitment to open trading with China but I can't see anything that would have an adverse effect on British steel. Can you point me to it?http://eeas.europa.eu/archives/docs/china/docs/joint_communication_to_the_european_parliament_and_the_council_-_elements_for_a_new_eu_strategy_on_china.pdf
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on January 04, 2018, 07:47:11 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 07:40:04 pmQuote from: wilts rover on January 04, 2018, 07:13:09 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 06:31:22 pmCheck out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturingIf I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.Here's the EU's current commitment to open trading with China but I can't see anything that would have an adverse effect on British steel. Can you point me to it?http://eeas.europa.eu/archives/docs/china/docs/joint_communication_to_the_european_parliament_and_the_council_-_elements_for_a_new_eu_strategy_on_china.pdfhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11844952/Cheap-Chinese-imports-hits-profits-at-Britains-biggest-steel-maker.htmlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34581945Cheap Chinese steel imports would not be possible without the EU trade agreement with China.
Quote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 07:49:15 pmQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on January 04, 2018, 07:47:11 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 07:40:04 pmQuote from: wilts rover on January 04, 2018, 07:13:09 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 06:31:22 pmCheck out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturingIf I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.Here's the EU's current commitment to open trading with China but I can't see anything that would have an adverse effect on British steel. Can you point me to it?http://eeas.europa.eu/archives/docs/china/docs/joint_communication_to_the_european_parliament_and_the_council_-_elements_for_a_new_eu_strategy_on_china.pdfhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11844952/Cheap-Chinese-imports-hits-profits-at-Britains-biggest-steel-maker.htmlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34581945Cheap Chinese steel imports would not be possible without the EU trade agreement with China.Both of those pre-date the document I linked to and are speculation at best anyway. That's why I went to the source document. Link to something in that.
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on January 04, 2018, 07:56:11 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 07:49:15 pmQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on January 04, 2018, 07:47:11 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 07:40:04 pmQuote from: wilts rover on January 04, 2018, 07:13:09 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 06:31:22 pmCheck out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturingIf I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.Here's the EU's current commitment to open trading with China but I can't see anything that would have an adverse effect on British steel. Can you point me to it?http://eeas.europa.eu/archives/docs/china/docs/joint_communication_to_the_european_parliament_and_the_council_-_elements_for_a_new_eu_strategy_on_china.pdfhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11844952/Cheap-Chinese-imports-hits-profits-at-Britains-biggest-steel-maker.htmlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34581945Cheap Chinese steel imports would not be possible without the EU trade agreement with China.Both of those pre-date the document I linked to and are speculation at best anyway. That's why I went to the source document. Link to something in that.Whats your point? Can you point to where that agreement protects the the UK from cheap imports from China and in turn the British steel industry? If that was even considered during the drawing up of that policy it has failed significantly.The point i was making is that EU policies have damaged our manufacturing industry, you see to be suggesting that the EU is innocent of this because of a policy brought about in 2016, long after the damage has been done.
Quote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 08:01:29 pmQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on January 04, 2018, 07:56:11 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 07:49:15 pmQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on January 04, 2018, 07:47:11 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 07:40:04 pmQuote from: wilts rover on January 04, 2018, 07:13:09 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 06:31:22 pmCheck out point three which refers to the role of the eu in the decline of British steel manufacturingIf I can refer you to this post I made a couple of months ago in a discussion with wing commander on the same topic:http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=263514.msg730167#msg730167I paraphrase my main point here for continuity.In the 1970's, British Steel employed over 250 000 people (many in my family). By 1981 after Thatcher and McGregor had closed closed Shotton, Corby, Normanby Park and others it was down to 88 000. Then after privatisation they closed Rotherham and Ravenscraig so that by 1997 it was down to 28 000. When Tata took over in 2007 it was 23 000.So how was this the fault of the EU and not Tory government policies?If you reconsider my argument I say in part it was due to the EU. As a socialist I am fully aware of the damage Thatcherism and tory policies have caused to this country.The European Union and China are two of the biggest traders in the world. China is now the EU's second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the EU is China's biggest trading partner.The EU is committed to open trading relations with China. The weakened YEN and this trading agreement has put the final nail in the coffin of British steel and therein you have an example of how the EU has weakened the British economy.Here's the EU's current commitment to open trading with China but I can't see anything that would have an adverse effect on British steel. Can you point me to it?http://eeas.europa.eu/archives/docs/china/docs/joint_communication_to_the_european_parliament_and_the_council_-_elements_for_a_new_eu_strategy_on_china.pdfhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11844952/Cheap-Chinese-imports-hits-profits-at-Britains-biggest-steel-maker.htmlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34581945Cheap Chinese steel imports would not be possible without the EU trade agreement with China.Both of those pre-date the document I linked to and are speculation at best anyway. That's why I went to the source document. Link to something in that.Whats your point? Can you point to where that agreement protects the the UK from cheap imports from China and in turn the British steel industry? If that was even considered during the drawing up of that policy it has failed significantly.The point i was making is that EU policies have damaged our manufacturing industry, you see to be suggesting that the EU is innocent of this because of a policy brought about in 2016, long after the damage has been done.No, because it doesn't talk about it at all. It mentions nothing about changing the current rules, including imposition of Anti-Dumping Duty. That's my point. What's your point about it, or are you just blaming it without knowing anything about it?
Cheap Chinese steel imports would not be possible without the EU trade agreement with China.
My point is the EU's trade deal with China has, due to the ability for the Chinese to import chap steel, damaged the UK's steel industry. I take it you don't have a counter argument based on any thing other than the trade deal doesn't speak about the steel industry directly?
Quote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 08:12:04 pmMy point is the EU's trade deal with China has, due to the ability for the Chinese to import chap steel, damaged the UK's steel industry. I take it you don't have a counter argument based on any thing other than the trade deal doesn't speak about the steel industry directly?What EU trade deal?There is no EU trade deal with China.
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on January 04, 2018, 08:15:10 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 08:12:04 pmMy point is the EU's trade deal with China has, due to the ability for the Chinese to import chap steel, damaged the UK's steel industry. I take it you don't have a counter argument based on any thing other than the trade deal doesn't speak about the steel industry directly?What EU trade deal?There is no EU trade deal with China.The document you posted, if you had bothered to read it, talks about the EU adopted a new strategy on China mapping out the European Union's relationship with China for the next five years. The strategy also includes a trade agenda with a strong focus on improving market access opportunities.Without a trade deal we couldn't trade with china full stop.
Quote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 08:25:06 pmQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on January 04, 2018, 08:15:10 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 08:12:04 pmMy point is the EU's trade deal with China has, due to the ability for the Chinese to import chap steel, damaged the UK's steel industry. I take it you don't have a counter argument based on any thing other than the trade deal doesn't speak about the steel industry directly?What EU trade deal?There is no EU trade deal with China.The document you posted, if you had bothered to read it, talks about the EU adopted a new strategy on China mapping out the European Union's relationship with China for the next five years. The strategy also includes a trade agenda with a strong focus on improving market access opportunities.Without a trade deal we couldn't trade with china full stop.Yes, I know, but it that's just general objectives without any actual propositions. 'market access' can mean a lot of things, it doesn't just relate to tariffs.And, as it's talking about the future, how exactly has a non-extent trade agreement between the EU and China meant us importing cheap steel in the past as you have repeatedly claimed?
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on January 04, 2018, 08:29:28 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 08:25:06 pmQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on January 04, 2018, 08:15:10 pmQuote from: aidanstu on January 04, 2018, 08:12:04 pmMy point is the EU's trade deal with China has, due to the ability for the Chinese to import chap steel, damaged the UK's steel industry. I take it you don't have a counter argument based on any thing other than the trade deal doesn't speak about the steel industry directly?What EU trade deal?There is no EU trade deal with China.The document you posted, if you had bothered to read it, talks about the EU adopted a new strategy on China mapping out the European Union's relationship with China for the next five years. The strategy also includes a trade agenda with a strong focus on improving market access opportunities.Without a trade deal we couldn't trade with china full stop.Yes, I know, but it that's just general objectives without any actual propositions. 'market access' can mean a lot of things, it doesn't just relate to tariffs.And, as it's talking about the future, how exactly has a non-extent trade agreement between the EU and China meant us importing cheap steel in the past as you have repeatedly claimed?Its not a claim, its a fact. So what happened is the YEN crashed and the Chinese started selling steel to the uk at ridiculously low prices. This contributed the difficulties in the britain's ability to sell their own steel and the death nail in the industry this is well documented.The EU and China do have a trade deal.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/755139.stmhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/755139.stm
AS1) The Chinese currency is the Yuan. The Yen is Japan’s currency. 2) The Yuan hasn’t collapsed against either the Euro or the Pound. It has gradually got stronger over the past decade and is about 30% stronger against both than it was 10 years ago. This is really worrying. You obviously think hard about this and have strong, passionate opinions. But your facts are consistently miles off the mark. If you’re really making your mind up on these manifestly wrong “facts”, don’t you think you ought to stop and have a think?