Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Filo on March 08, 2018, 06:57:12 pm
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If evidence emerges that this a Russian state attempt to use Chemical weapons on UK soil, what response should we as a nation take. Dare we take on Putin?
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Well if this Govt was keen on really hitting Putin and his mates, they could start by cleaning out the stables in the City, where the Russian gangsters launder their money.
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I would think we need hard evidence first before we react, but I don't suppose Nerve Agents are freely availible to Joe Public, so somewhere along the line there is higher profile involvement
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Same as Litvinenko probably
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It will never happen Billy, there is too much at stake for the high rollers. Give it a couple of months and it is yesterdays fish and chip paper.
Anyway the fact that he was our agent started the ball rolling, but of course we play fair don't we?
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Filo, we may expel a couple of low ranking embassy officials and make it out to be a big thing, which interestingly we did in the early 70s I think.
Wilson expelled 90 odd in retaliation for them catching our spy ring, they included some men from Barnby Dun who were accused of spying on the R.A.F. at Bawtry headquarters, and who were supposed to work for a plant importing firm called Umo plant on the Pilkingtons site.
They seemed to be decent lads to me, shows what I know.
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Whatever the weight of evidence against Russia/ ANother - we carry little weight in way of response at least not publicly.
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We couldn't knock our way out of a Brown paper bag!
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Sporty, I agree, but do not underestimate our dirty tricks brigade, we are just as good, if not better than the ruskies at that.
Don't think for one minute we cannot replicate what has happened, or that we will not get to know exactly what did happen.
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Sproty. Why would we need to knock our way out of anything? I thought Putin’s Russia was supposed to be our friend?
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I find it puzzling that the Russians would go to the trouble of trying to bump off a retired spy whom they were willing to let go as part of an exchange. It doesn't appear that this chap posed a particular threat to the Russians nor was he (unlike Litvinenko) an open opponent of Putin.
There's a lot more to this than meets the eye. Although I hold no brief for Putin (indeed I agree that he is dangerous) I'll reserve judgment on the notion that this was a Russian secret service operation.
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Filo, we may expel a couple of low ranking embassy officials and make it out to be a big thing, which interestingly we did in the early 70s I think.
Wilson expelled 90 odd in retaliation for them catching our spy ring, they included some men from Barnby Dun who were accused of spying on the R.A.F. at Bawtry headquarters, and who were supposed to work for a plant importing firm called Umo plant on the Pilkingtons site.
They seemed to be decent lads to me, shows what I know.
Interesting, I worked at Pilkingtons for 23 years and have never heard that one before
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I find it puzzling that the Russians would go to the trouble of trying to bump off a retired spy whom they were willing to let go as part of an exchange. It doesn't appear that this chap posed a particular threat to the Russians nor was he (unlike Litvinenko) an open opponent of Putin.
There's a lot more to this than meets the eye. Although I hold no brief for Putin (indeed I agree that he is dangerous) I'll reserve judgment on the notion that this was a Russian secret service operation.
ISIS, framing the Russians?
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Personal grudge from ex colleagues acting on their own?
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TRB
1) According to news reports, Skripal was giving lectures to trainees of the U.K. security services. A security expert on the radio the other day suggested that this meant that the FSB would consider him to still be on active service and hence, fair game.
2) This could also be Putin’s way of testing our mettle when it comes to responding. And also giving a message that he doesn’t fear us. A bit like the regular sorties by Russian bombers testing our East Coast air defences.
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I'm with TRB on this one, it's just too convenient to blame it on the Russians - why him and why now? What's he been doing for the past 8 years whilst he has been in this country?
Is it a coincidence that he lives in Salisbury - as does the bloke who recruited him for MI6. When this bloke retired from MI6 he went into business with another colleague from MI6 - Christopher Steele who has been in the news recently as he compiled the dossier into Trump's collusion with the Russians. The dossier that contains information that came from an un-named, former Russian intelligence officer. There will be a lot of people who would want to hear more from this officer - and a lot who wouldn't.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/07/poisoned-russian-spy-sergei-skripal-close-consultant-linked/
Is it also a coincidence that the guy was attacked with a nerve agent, and you see who dangerous this stuff is to use and be in contact with, who would want to carry it around, 5 miles away from the UK's main chemical warfare establishment?
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TRB
1) According to news reports, Skripal was giving lectures to trainees of the U.K. security services. A security expert on the radio the other day suggested that this meant that the FSB would consider him to still be on active service and hence, fair game.
2) This could also be Putin’s way of testing our mettle when it comes to responding. And also giving a message that he doesn’t fear us. A bit like the regular sorties by Russian bombers testing our East Coast air defences.
I appreciate that the use of a nerve agent is both scary to the general population and makes it sound like the action of a foreign power. But surely if you wanted to get rid of a rogue agent you'd have done so in private and a long way from possible CCTV cameras? This is a three pipe problem!
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TRB
Not at all. If you’re brazen enough to make a point, you do it in as nasty and as open a way as possible.
Like Litvinenko.
You do it publicly for the same reason that Napoleon occasionally had a General executed in public: ‘pour “encourager” les autres’ to act as you want them to act or risk the same end.
Le Carre (who knew a thing or two about the immorality of the espionage world) wrote about this when Moscow had a troublesome Baltic emigre living in London bumped off in “Smiley’s People”. He had his face blown off with a dum-dum bullet on Hampstead Heath and the body left to be found. To send a message to others to back off.
And if that brazenness also terrorises the civilian population into believing that you’re prepared to go to any lengths, then that’s an extra win. It’s a chilling way of saying: “Do you REALLY want to f**k with us? This time it was an obvious, specific target. Next time it might go into the air con system of a big tower block.”
So it’s Occam’s Razor for me. Russia has previous. Putin is on record as saying that those who betray the Motherland will be dealt with. And the method of the assassination attempt narrows the possible source down to a handful of possible sources. One of which is Russia.
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Personal grudge from ex colleagues acting on their own?
It’s possible I suppose, but why would an ex-colleague with a personal grudge against a specific person go to the trouble of targeting him by such an “elegant” method? What would there be to gain by doing that?
Using nerve agent seems to me to be specifically designed to send a message to a far wider audience than the target himself.
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Suicide pact?
Assassination by the daughter under direction from Moscow?
What is the interest in his son’s gravestone about?
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Personal grudge from ex colleagues acting on their own?
It’s possible I suppose, but why would an ex-colleague with a personal grudge against a specific person go to the trouble of targeting him by such an “elegant” method? What would there be to gain by doing that?
Using nerve agent seems to me to be specifically designed to send a message to a far wider audience than the target himself.
Of course you are far more likely to be right, I was just grasping at straws.
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Suicide pact?
Assassination by the daughter under direction from Moscow?
What is the interest in his son’s gravestone about?
I wonder about the daughter as well. She came to England with him and was going to apply for citizenship, but then decided to return to Moscow.
The other part of the puzzle is that Skripal was seen at different times on that day with two different women. One a blonde, so probably the daughter, but later with a woman with dark hair. Was the latter the assassin?
The Russian Secret service almost certainly is involved in this, but how and for what reason?
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Personal grudge from ex colleagues acting on their own?
It’s possible I suppose, but why would an ex-colleague with a personal grudge against a specific person go to the trouble of targeting him by such an “elegant” method? What would there be to gain by doing that?
They should check who didn't send him a Christmas card last year.
I'm like bloody Columbo, me.
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https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/from-russia-with-blood-14-suspected-hits-on-british-soil?utm_term=.tjol5opVg#.dab5EOP6L
14 suspicious deaths in the U.K. in recent years, of people known to be enemies of the Russian state or Russian gangsters.
Some chilling thoughts in there.
The core reason British authorities have turned a blind eye, a current senior national security adviser to the British government told BuzzFeed News, is fear. Ministers, he said, were not prepared to take the “political risk of dealing firmly and effectively in whatever way with the activities of the Russian state and Russian-organised crime in the UK” because the Kremlin could inflict massive harm on Britain by unleashing cyberattacks, destabilising the economy, or mobilising elements of Britain’s large Russian population to “cause disruption”. Deep law enforcement funding cuts mean “our capabilities are very weak”, he said. It was also impossible to rule out the risk of “general war with Russia” in the current climate, he said, and “if it were to happen it would happen very, very rapidly, and we would be entirely unprepared”
Read that and then think about how desperate Amber Rudd was to publicly tell everyone to avoid jumping to conclusions about Russian involvement this week.
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No-one who had any contact with them after they were found on the bench, the restaurant staff, pub staff, ambulance staff are reported to be ill. The only person who did become ill is the police officer - who went to their house.
The army took stuff away from the house and the hospital (the ambulance they were in and the officer's police car) but not from the restaurant or pub. So it's fairly clear they dont think they were poisoned at either of those places - but it may have happened at the house.
So was it something that came through the post - or was it something the daughter brought over with her? Maybe something to put on the graves hence the interest there?
According to the BBC she works for Pepsi.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43355824
According to the FT they have no record of her.
https://www.ft.com/content/c713dd5e-238b-11e8-ae48-60d3531b7d11
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https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/from-russia-with-blood-14-suspected-hits-on-british-soil?utm_term=.tjol5opVg#.dab5EOP6L
14 suspicious deaths in the U.K. in recent years, of people known to be enemies of the Russian state or Russian gangsters.
Some chilling thoughts in there.
The core reason British authorities have turned a blind eye, a current senior national security adviser to the British government told BuzzFeed News, is fear. Ministers, he said, were not prepared to take the “political risk of dealing firmly and effectively in whatever way with the activities of the Russian state and Russian-organised crime in the UK” because the Kremlin could inflict massive harm on Britain by unleashing cyberattacks, destabilising the economy, or mobilising elements of Britain’s large Russian population to “cause disruption”. Deep law enforcement funding cuts mean “our capabilities are very weak”, he said. It was also impossible to rule out the risk of “general war with Russia” in the current climate, he said, and “if it were to happen it would happen very, very rapidly, and we would be entirely unprepared”
Read that and then think about how desperate Amber Rudd was to publicly tell everyone to avoid jumping to conclusions about Russian involvement this week.
No-one has been talking about anyone else other than Russian involvement so that clearly didnt work!
Other than this guy who claims to know a bit about it
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2018/03/some-reflections-on-the-events-in-salisbury-.html
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No-one who had any contact with them after they were found on the bench, the restaurant staff, pub staff, ambulance staff are reported to be ill. The only person who did become ill is the police officer - who went to their house.
The army took stuff away from the house and the hospital (the ambulance they were in and the officer's police car) but not from the restaurant or pub. So it's fairly clear they dont think they were poisoned at either of those places - but it may have happened at the house.
So was it something that came through the post - or was it something the daughter brought over with her? Maybe something to put on the graves hence the interest there?
According to the BBC she works for Pepsi.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43355824
According to the FT they have no record of her.
https://www.ft.com/content/c713dd5e-238b-11e8-ae48-60d3531b7d11
Aren't they looking at the son's grave to see if he was poisoned? (Presumably this wasn't considered when he died?) Perhaps not. Deep waters here.
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No-one who had any contact with them after they were found on the bench, the restaurant staff, pub staff, ambulance staff are reported to be ill. The only person who did become ill is the police officer - who went to their house.
The army took stuff away from the house and the hospital (the ambulance they were in and the officer's police car) but not from the restaurant or pub. So it's fairly clear they dont think they were poisoned at either of those places - but it may have happened at the house.
So was it something that came through the post - or was it something the daughter brought over with her? Maybe something to put on the graves hence the interest there?
According to the BBC she works for Pepsi.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43355824
According to the FT they have no record of her.
https://www.ft.com/content/c713dd5e-238b-11e8-ae48-60d3531b7d11
Aren't they looking at the son's grave to see if he was poisoned? (Presumably this wasn't considered when he died?) Perhaps not. Deep waters here.
I read somewhere that his Son was cremated, so there would be no body to do tests on
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Wilts
An interesting debating technique for a lefty! Wheeling Peter Hitchens out.
See, PH is undoubtedly extremely intelligent. He’s certainly intelligent enough to craft a plausible story that blithely ignores inconvenient facts.
Consider: He makes a big issue of the fact that anyone can make nerve agents (he mentions Aum Shinrikyo doing so in 1995.)
Can nerve agents, such as sarin, only be obtained or made by governments, as has been said a lot this morning? I had thought that the fanatics who released sarin on the Tokyo underground in 1995 had made it themselves.
He published that piece on Thursday afternoon. But on Thursday morning, I heard it reported on the radio that sources were claiming the substance used was rather than sarin or VX
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43326734
I’ve got a day job. Hitchens is a full-time polemicist. Odd that I heard that but he didn’t.
He also questions why Russia would want to carry out the killing. And he effectively concludes (or leaves it to the reader to conclude) that they wouldn’t.
Here’s two perfectly plausible reasons why Russia might want to do this.
1) It’s been reported that Skripal was advising U.K. security services on Russian cyber threats. I’ve no idea if that is true, but it certainly is true that Russia sets great store by its cyber warfare capabilities.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberattacks_during_the_Russo-Georgian_War
So there’s a potential reason straightaway. They don’t want whatever cyber threats they may hold over us to be mitigated.
2) Hitchens has obviously never seen Dr Strangelove. Last 90 seconds here.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2yfXgu37iyI
If you have a new weapon which you want to use as part of a deterrence strategy, you need to show three things:
a) It is devastating
b) It is very difficult to defend against
c) You are prepared to use it.
If you develop weapons for deterrence, as Strangelove says “Why would you keep it secret? Why don’t you tell the world?”
There’s a perfectly logical argument that Putin has just demonstrated a, b and most importantly, c. I’m surprised that an argument like that didn’t occur to someone as noble and intelligent as Hitchens.
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Wilts
No-one has been talking about anyone else other than Russian involvement so that clearly didnt work!
I’m sorry, I thought my point was obvious. I’ll spell it out.
Amber Rudd was at pains to send a message that THE UK GOVERNMENT wasn’t jumping to public conclusions that Putin was to blame and had to be punished. That wasn’t a message sent to the U.K. population. It was a message sent to the Kremlin.
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BST,
I tend to think everything Amber Rudd says is about flannelling a UK audience. The Kremlin have probably never heard of her, or consider her in the same mold as Boris....ie, a lightweight of no importance.
As a traded commodity, the poisoned party would surely have been under the care and supervision of UK security services. So where were they when all this kicked off?
Just asking, like!
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Albie
You reckon MI6 were wiping his arse every morning, noon and night for the past 8 years?
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BST,
I tend to think everything Amber Rudd says is about flannelling a UK audience. The Kremlin have probably never heard of her, or consider her in the same mold as Boris....ie, a lightweight of no importance.
As a traded commodity, the poisoned party would surely have been under the care and supervision of UK security services. So where were they when all this kicked off?
Just asking, like!
I can't help wondering whether Amber Rudd's measured response isn't as much to do with trying to calm down reactions from sections of the media. And even if the police and / or security services do find a smoking gun that points to Russian state involvement, I wonder how much we will ever know?
As Skripal was not an active agent (at least that's what we've been told) I wouldn't have thought MI6 would have the resources to keep tabs on him on a daily basis.
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So the Russians were such a threat to this gent yet they merrily permitted his daughter to lead a normal life over there... hmmm
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Well, May’s statement has just upped the ante somewhat.
I hope no-one is expecting to see England in the World Cup this summer.
Nervous times.
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Well, May’s statement has just upped the ante somewhat.
I hope no-one is expecting to see England in the World Cup this summer.
Nervous times.
She's summond the Russian ambassador, not sure why, they're never going to say yes it was us
But obviously using this agent is like leaving a calling card, the Russians wanted us to know who was behind it
Time for NATO to remind the Russians that an attack on one member of NATO is considered an attack on all members
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It’s not a question of the Ambassador admitting anything. That is the sort of meeting where one Govt can privately lay out to the representative of another one, what the likely consequences will be. So that both sides can make informed decisions on their next steps.
Been listening to PM on R4 on the way home tonight. They had the head of the U.K. RT organisation. He sounded like he was horribly stressed. He clearly speaks English fluently but he was frequently spent several seconds trying to form sentences. That was worrying to say the least.
And while I agree with the substance of every point that Corbyn raised in his reply to May (Russian gangster money in the City, donations from Russian oligarchs to the Tory party) I have to say that I thought he badly misjudged the tone by making no criticism of Putin but instead trying to turn this into a party political issue. There are times when that is appropriate but this doesn’t feel like one. Regardless of political difference, there are times when you have to decide which side of a big issue you are on. May had just effectively accused Russia of an act of war (although she very carefully called it “unlawful use of force”) against the UK. That is the sort of language you hear in Parliament maybe once a generation. No PM is going to use those words except in very serious circumstances and that highlights just how dangerous the current situation is. In those circumstances, replying with party political attacks is, I would say, a big mistake.
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I would hope if not already there, one of our Submarines carrying our Nuclear deterrent is heading full steam to the Baltic Sea
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Just thinking about how weak our position is here and how clever a game Putin may be playing.
He’s just authorised an utterly brazen attack on IK soil. No attempt to disguise it. The sort of thing that effectively is saying “Yeah? And what the f**k are YOU going to do about it?”
In normal times “you” would include the USA and a whole string of European allies. The response would be hard and coordinated.
But these aren’t normal times. Putin has kompromat on the tenant of the White House. So it’s likely that we’ll get little if any support from the USA for stern action. And in Europe, there’s a string of pro-Russian politicians either in power (Hungary, Poland) or supporting Governments (Austria, Italy on its way). Or politicians like Macron who want to have cordial relations with Russia. And of course we don’t have a lot of credit to call on in Europe at the moment.
If you were going to test the resolve of a country, what better time to do it?
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Just thinking about how weak our position is here and how clever a game Putin may be playing.
He’s just authorised an utterly brazen attack on IK soil. No attempt to disguise it. The sort of thing that effectively is saying “Yeah? And what the f**k are YOU going to do about it?”
In normal times “you” would include the USA and a whole string of European allies. The response would be hard and coordinated.
But these aren’t normal times. Putin has kompromat on the tenant of the White House. So it’s likely that we’ll get little if any support from the USA for stern action. And in Europe, there’s a string of pro-Russian politicians either in power (Hungary, Poland) or supporting Governments (Austria, Italy on its way). Or politicians like Macron who want to have cordial relations with Russia. And of course we don’t have a lot of credit to call on in Europe at the moment.
If you were going to test the resolve of a country, what better time to do it?
But as I've already said NATO members are treaty bound to come to our aid, if they don't that will be the end of NATO, Trump really dors n't have much say in it really, get behind us or throw the world into the abyss of a potential WW3
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Filo
No, because May is not so stupid as to declare this an act of war. So there’s no obligation on NATO countries to do anything.
But in normal times, this sort of attack would lead to massive, concerted diplomatic and economic sanctions by our allies. In today’s atmosphere that’s much less certain. We might find ourselves very much in our own.
Think about it this way. Russia don’t want a shooting war with us. But it is very much in Putin’s interests to marginalise us. His strategy is to bully countries one by one. In normal times he wouldn’t be able to isolate and bully us. But these aren’t normal times. Diplomatically, we’re in our weakest strategic position for a very, very long time.
Now do you see why I was repeatedly pointing plot two years ago why Putin was very much in wanting to vote Leave?
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Is a chemical attack on NATO soil not an attack on all NATO soil?
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Yes. Of course. But it will NOT be called a formal act of war because the consequences of making that move are way too dangerous. That’s why May used the strongest language she could short of callingbit an act of war.
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I would hope if not already there, one of our Submarines carrying our Nuclear deterrent is heading full steam to the Baltic Sea
The Baltic has an average depth of 55 feet the deepest part is off Sweden at 1500 feet!
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Yes. Of course. But it will NOT be called a formal act of war because the consequences of making that move are way too dangerous. That’s why May used the strongest language she could short of callingbit an act of war.
That did n't stop the last Country (America) invoking article IV after 9/11
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Oh an d by the way they have hundreds of cruise missiles which can be fired at the UK from their own Baltic Waters and they can hit roughly 60% of our land mass!
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I would hope if not already there, one of our Submarines carrying our Nuclear deterrent is heading full steam to the Baltic Sea
The Baltic has an average depth of 55 feet the deepest part is off Sweden at 1500 feet!
The average depth is 55m (180ft)
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I would hope if not already there, one of our Submarines carrying our Nuclear deterrent is heading full steam to the Baltic Sea
The Baltic has an average depth of 55 feet the deepest part is off Sweden at 1500 feet!
Not even dep enough for any of our conventional nuclear subs let alone a 16,000 tonner
The average depth is 55m (180ft)
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I would hope if not already there, one of our Submarines carrying our Nuclear deterrent is heading full steam to the Baltic Sea
The Baltic has an average depth of 55 feet the deepest part is off Sweden at 1500 feet!
Not even dep enough for any of our conventional nuclear subs let alone a 16,000 tonner
The average depth is 55m (180ft)
OK then, lets ditch the Baltic and go to the Norwegian Sea, thats still close enough to Launch a strike on Moscow if needed
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OK it might not be deep but hardly a ditch...
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Is a chemical attack on NATO soil not an attack on all NATO soil?
The nuclear attack on Litvinenko wasn't so why would this be?
Russia supplies 40% of Europe's gas and that will focus a few European government's minds before they take any action. As will the £1.5 billion pounds that is supposedly coming into the City of London each month from Russia.
It's bonkers talking of military action alone. Do you not remember what the Defence Chief said just before Christmas on how easy it would be for them to cut the North Sea power cables and cripple us - whilst there is nothing we can do about it. And blow up the North Sea gas rigs at the same time probably.
What we should be doing is implementing the Magnitsky Act (this is what Corbyn was referring to as the Tories have repeatedly blocked it) making moves to freeze the bank accounts of these Russian oligarchs and gangsters, seizing their property assets, including football clubs, held across the country, and revoking any British citizenship.
That will hurt a lot of people most of whom must be friends or allies of Putin or they wouldn't be where they are today.
Since Litvinenko we have not so much as turned a blind eye to Putin more encouraged him by the use of the City as a Russian money-laundering centre. If we dont clamp down on that now we never will.
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Yes. Of course. But it will NOT be called a formal act of war because the consequences of making that move are way too dangerous. That’s why May used the strongest language she could short of callingbit an act of war.
That did n't stop the last Country (America) invoking article IV after 9/11
That wasn’t running the risk of a peer-to-peer military conflict...
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Is a chemical attack on NATO soil not an attack on all NATO soil?
The nuclear attack on Litvinenko wasn't so why would this be?
Russia supplies 40% of Europe's gas and that will focus a few European government's minds before they take any action. As will the £1.5 billion pounds that is supposedly coming into the City of London each month from Russia.
It's bonkers talking of military action alone. Do you not remember what the Defence Chief said just before Christmas on how easy it would be for them to cut the North Sea power cables and cripple us - whilst there is nothing we can do about it. And blow up the North Sea gas rigs at the same time probably.
What we should be doing is implementing the Magnitsky Act (this is what Corbyn was referring to as the Tories have repeatedly blocked it) making moves to freeze the bank accounts of these Russian oligarchs and gangsters, seizing their property assets, including football clubs, held across the country, and revoking any British citizenship.
That will hurt a lot of people most of whom must be friends or allies of Putin or they wouldn't be where they are today.
Since Litvinenko we have not so much as turned a blind eye to Putin more encouraged him by the use of the City as a Russian money-laundering centre. If we dont clamp down on that now we never will.
I'm not saying we should launch a military attack, I'm saying that our Nuclear deterrent should be in a strategic location close by in case the need arises to strike Moscow quickly should they attack us. Surely they would n't dare attack us, NATO would wipe russia off the map
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Yes. Of course. But it will NOT be called a formal act of war because the consequences of making that move are way too dangerous. That’s why May used the strongest language she could short of callingbit an act of war.
From the BBC:
Downing Street said the incident was not an "article five" matter - a reference to Nato rules which say an attack on one member constitutes an attack on all.
Just as you were saying BST
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I'm not saying we should launch a military attack, I'm saying that our Nuclear deterrent should be in a strategic location close by in case the need arises to strike Moscow quickly should they attack us.
I would guess that would have already happened quite a while ago Filo
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BST
Not wiping his arse but a duty of care comes with the territory. Normal practise in such circumstances.
It is interesting to consider previous history in this field:
https://theconversation.com/sergei-skripal-and-the-long-history-of-assassination-attempts-abroad-93021
The task is to prevent this from becoming the new normal. Weak governments in weak countries are not best placed to force the issue.
Wilts gets to the real dealbreaker....Russian gas.
The UK needs a secure independent supply before risking Putin giving us a cold winter next year.
May would be out the door in quick time if Russia chose to deny supply.
Putin knows this and so does she!
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Filo
I’m sure one of our Trident-armed submarines is always in a position to strike Russia. There’d be little point to it otherwise. Given that the missiles have a reported range of 7,500miles they could be in the Indian Ocean and still be viable.
But this isn’t going to result in anything remotely close to that sort of situation. Unless there’s a series of crazy miscalculations.
Dutch’s post makes that clear. This isn’t something that anyone would risk going to war for. But it’s still very serious. It’s about Putin showing how he intends to bully us in future.
It’s at times like these that you wish you were part of a strong economic grouping that could collectively apply pressure to the bully.
One thing’s nailed on. Unless there’s a big back down from Russia (difficult to imagine) then there’s going to be big pressure on England to pull out of the World Cup. I don’t see how an organisation with the 2nd in line to the throne as its president could possibly allow its team to play in a country which had been publicly accused by the PM of effectively committing an act of war against us.
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This is a serious question and not one that is taking the piss or suggesting a political preference. Would Corbyn handle the situation better than May?
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So the bio chemical weapon used in the attack was military grade and originated in Iron Cutain Soviet Union.
When the Soviet Union ended The Ukraine,Belorussian and Kazakhstan all inherited arsenals of Nuclear, chemical and biological weapons .which apparently were ALL returned to Russia,cough cough cough!
Now then who amongst that lot has a very active Axe to grind against the Russians?
I wouldn't be surprised if we also didn't acquire some, how else can we so positively identify it.
Skrypal himself might have sourced it for us.
I think we need to wind our necks in and stop the hysterical speculation.
And silly comments about sending totally inappropriate responses don't help either.
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Filo, we may expel a couple of low ranking embassy officials and make it out to be a big thing, which interestingly we did in the early 70s I think.
Wilson expelled 90 odd in retaliation for them catching our spy ring, they included some men from Barnby Dun who were accused of spying on the R.A.F. at Bawtry headquarters, and who were supposed to work for a plant importing firm called Umo plant on the Pilkingtons site.
They seemed to be decent lads to me, shows what I know.
Filo, we may expel a couple of low ranking embassy officials and make it out to be a big thing, which interestingly we did in the early 70s I think.
Wilson expelled 90 odd in retaliation for them catching our spy ring, they included some men from Barnby Dun who were accused of spying on the R.A.F. at Bawtry headquarters, and who were supposed to work for a plant importing firm called Umo plant on the Pilkingtons site.
They seemed to be decent lads to me, shows what I know.
I was led to believe they were importing chassis that were compatible to a light Russian tank.
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Well, May’s statement has just upped the ante somewhat.
I hope no-one is expecting to see England in the World Cup this summer.
Nervous times.
The FA should tell the Government to get stuffed unless the situation is that bad that diplomatic relations are broken off and trade sanctions imposed. Politicians expecting others to 'protest' but not being willing to do anything themselves really get up my nose. Thatcher was just the bloody same, expecting sportspeople to boycott the 1980 Olympics but doing bugger all herself.
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Most of the civilised world has said they condem the attack Trump has said nothing, that silence says everything about Trumps Russian connections
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Let's wait until the suspects who placed The noxious item are identified,before we kick off!
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Well, May’s statement has just upped the ante somewhat.
I hope no-one is expecting to see England in the World Cup this summer.
Nervous times.
The FA should tell the Government to get stuffed unless the situation is that bad that diplomatic relations are broken off and trade sanctions imposed. Politicians expecting others to 'protest' but not being willing to do anything themselves really get up my nose. Thatcher was just the bloody same, expecting sportspeople to boycott the 1980 Olympics but doing bugger all herself.
There'll be sanctions announced tomorrow night. It'd be a very humiliating climb-down after May's speech in the Commons yesterday to respond with anything less.
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Sproty is Vladimir Putin and I claim my £5.
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Let's wait until the suspects who placed The noxious item are identified,before we kick off!
It's a Russian developed nerve agent, it does n't matter who placed it, the trail leads back to Russia. If Russia has been framed by an ex Soviet state with a grudge Russia needs to come clean about them losing control of their stocks of this agent. Whoever did it wanted the World to know or think it was Russia. We know Assad in Syria has used chemical weapons, and we know Russia are allied to Syria, have Russia been supplying this agent to Syria and has some of it fallen into the wrong hands amidst the chaos of the civil war, could Islamic State have got hold of it? They could then use it to frame Russia and potentially cause conflict between Nuclear powers
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Rex Tillerson said yesterday that all signs point to Russian involvement. Today he's out of a job. Funny that.
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Rex Tillerson said yesterday that all signs point to Russian involvement. Today he's out of a job. Funny that.
And still nothing from Trump, what does Putin have on him?
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At least 4 former Soviet states have had access to that nerve agent.
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Putin funded Trump Organisation when he was bankrupt and couldn’t get a loan from anyone in the West. That’s why he won’t release his tax returns. Or criticise Putin. Ever.
What I don’t know is what Putin has on Sproty.
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Good article here, on what could be done and what might be effective towards both punishing Russia and changing their attitude and actions in the future, from the guy who was UK ambassador in Moscow at the time of the Litvineko poisoning.
Warning to those of a sensitive nature, it is essentially what Corbyn said yesterday. Punish them diplomatically and financially by siezing assests in the City and implementing the Magnitsky Act but also look at potential areas of co-operation to build a better relationship with them in the future.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/13/salisbury-attack-britain-links-russia-moscow
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Wilts.
That wasn’t the objectionable thing about Corbyn’s contribution.
It was the fact that
a) He didn’t criticise Russia. At all.
b) He raised the issue of British citizens of Russian origin making donations to the Tory party.
b is an issue which does need to be discussed but yesterday in Parliament wasn’t the time or the place.
This is a very important issue of national security. That’s not the moment to score party political points. I’d say that about any politician who made a decision like that in circumstances like these.
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Today
“President Trump agreed with Prime Minister May that the Government of the Russian Federation must provide unambiguous answers regarding how this chemical weapon, developed in Russia, came to be used in the United Kingdom,” the White House said in a brief statement on the call.“The two leaders agreed on the need for consequences for those who use these heinous weapons in flagrant violation of international norms.”
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/12/tory-links-russia-saudi-links-corbyn-spy-extremism (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/12/tory-links-russia-saudi-links-corbyn-spy-extremism)
There may be a question of timing but I don't think there's any question of substance.
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Copps.
I never questioned the substance of the allegations. Merely the context and timing. So we’re in agreement.
What I do continue to find concerning though is Corbyn’s long-standing reluctance to explicitly criticise Putin.
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Even if Putin's long standing opponents say that Corbyn's proposals will be the ones that will be most effective and damage him most?
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-vladimir-putin-theresa-may-sergei-skripal-magnitsky-laws-a8253786.html
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It looks like Putin miscalculated this one, the rest of the world seems to be on his case now, how will the bully react?
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Filo
It only matters if the rest of the world are prepared to take stiff action. Doesn’t matter a damn if they stand on the side tutting while we try to face down Putin.
Which is pretty much what there international affairs experts are saying.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ChathamHouse/status/973521922989461504
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Filo
It only matters if the rest of the world are prepared to take stiff action. Doesn’t matter a damn if they stand on the side tutting while we try to face down Putin.
Which is pretty much what there international affairs experts are saying.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ChathamHouse/status/973521922989461504
True, but how will he react if the rest of the world take action
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They could agree to impose tougher sanctions in concert with us.
Or, they might just stand by and say “We support you!” but not actually do anything.
Times like these that a generation of slagging off your allies tends to come back and bite you.
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I think JC needs to be removed as Leader of the Labour Party, he's the Neville Chamberlain of our time, the appeasment king
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Asking the PM to send a sample of the nerve agent to Russia for them to check it out is beyond stupid. What the hell does he think the outcome of that would be? They get it, check it and say, “Oh sorry! Fair cop”?
If they got a sample, they would test it, find it negative and scream from the rooftops that they were vindicated.
He's either being naive in the extreme here, in implicitly trusting Russia to be straight. Or...well God knows “or what...”
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And on the content of the actions announced today:
I assume May has got f**k all concrete support from America and Europe. What she’s announced, after the tone of her speech on Monday is a humiliating climb-down. Looks like we haven’t got the support we need to properly face down Putin.
Which is a worrying omen for the future.
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Asking the PM to send a sample of the nerve agent to Russia for them to check it out is beyond stupid. What the hell does he think the outcome of that would be? They get it, check it and say, “Oh sorry! Fair cop.” If they got a sample, they would test it, find it negative and scream from the rooftops that they were vindicated.
He's either being naive in the extreme here, in implicitly trusting Russia to be straight. Or...well God knows “or what...”
The way I understood the evidence will be presented to the OPCW, which in my opinion is the correct procedure, asking an international body to examine the evidence
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They could agree to impose tougher sanctions in concert with us.
Or, they might just stand by and say “We support you!” but not actually do anything.
Times like these that a generation of slagging off your allies tends to come back and bite you.
Could not agree more.
At the time of the Brexit Referendum I said that my remain vote was not even taking financial factors into account (even though my opinion was strongly that they would be negative for Leave) since being in alliances with friends is far far better and stronger than not.
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I don't see harm in it being sent to the OPCW. If an individual third party comes back with the same then they won't have a leg to stand on.
Times like this shows how we need to be as close to our neighbours and the EU as possible. We don't want to be pushing people away.
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Since when has any of the EU countries come to our aid before.for over a hundred years it has been the other way round.
Germany don't even pay their way in NATO, and France are always on the fringes of it anyway, both have and always will look after themselves, in fact will step into any opportunities if any arise.
It's a rerun of 1971, and will just die a death over time, no pun intended.
A tit for tat chucking out of known spies and diplomats, that the security people will have followed, and have, or are coming to the end of their usefulness,as far as gathering intelligence is concerned.
Filo, if you know any news archives on the internet, the expelling of Russians based in Barnby Dun maybe mentioned in the Sheffield Telegraph or Doncaster evening news/post. It involved the RAF headquaters at Bawtry, and our local airfields at the time.
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Selby
You're a smart bloke but that first line is just bloody stupid, Little Englander nonsense. Precisely the sort of nonsense that has brought us to this position.
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I don't see harm in it being sent to the OPCW. If an individual third party comes back with the same then they won't have a leg to stand on.
Times like this shows how we need to be as close to our neighbours and the EU as possible. We don't want to be pushing people away.
That is what Russia has asked the UK to do Donny. https://www.rusemb.org.uk/fnapr/6418
Of course verifying what the substance was doesn't confirm who placed it. It's probable Russia did it, it's most likely Russia did it, the evidence we have to date indicates Russia did it - but that doesn't prove beyond doubt that the Russian state did it.
Here's an alternative possibility for the conspiracy theorists.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/russian-to-judgement/
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On the call for action from our EU colleagues - lets just remind ourselves again that 40% of Europe's gas comes from Russia.
In addition 30% of BP's oil production comes from Russia.
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Bloody hell me and Jeremy Corbyn agreeing about something... the Ukrainian govt being the prime suspect!
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Well if we’re going into conspiracy theories, David Icke reckons it might all be a stitch up an all.
https://www.davidicke.com/article/462451/spy-saga-hysteria-rumors-amid-ongoing-probe-ex-agent-skripal-poisoning
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Billy, I must be getting better if you think only one line of mine is stupid.
Feeling quite chuffed with myself now.
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Couple of things bugging me, no arrest have been made, we ain't talking about a tube station in rush hour London.we are looking at a backwater where everybody knows everybody,who ever administered the substance did so in the resteraunt or the pub. It was done discreetly so the best bet is their meal was tampered with.
So it was a member of staff in the resteraunt. Even Barbara Cartland could solve this one.
I do know that Wiltsher Police are more geared up to finding lost dogs and issuing Pedlars certificates but surely the dizzy Cows in charge of the Country and Home Office could find time to put their knitting down and send in the Men from the Yard!
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Sporty, the last report I saw was that it may have been smeared on the door handles of their car.
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Selby
I didn’t think anything you had previously written was stupid. I disagreed with what you’d said but I didn’t think it was stupid.
That line about EU countries never helping though is just daft. I’m assuming/hoping you meant it as a joke.
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Same as Litvinenko probably
so the "method" has changed over the years always remember when the Midland Bank opened the first British office in Russia -- sadly the head of that office had an untimely "fall" from grace in1983 amazed I can find reference to it on the internet
https://www.nytimes.com/1983/10/03/world/doubts-in-moscow-on-briton-s-death.html
also remember the words "I spy with my little eye " floating around
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Sporty, the last report I saw was that it may have been smeared on the door handles of their car.
That's interesting,very naive way of doing it, probably 20/30 CCTV systems operating in the immediate vicinity plus folks with Dash cams.
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Sproty.
Get with the project mate. Putin doesn’t give a flying f**k about being found out. The agent will be back in Moscow now. The whole point is about showing how little of a shit Moscow gives about us.
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Couple of things bugging me, no arrest have been made, we ain't talking about a tube station in rush hour London.we are looking at a backwater where everybody knows everybody,who ever administered the substance did so in the resteraunt or the pub. It was done discreetly so the best bet is their meal was tampered with.
So it was a member of staff in the resteraunt. Even Barbara Cartland could solve this one.
I do know that Wiltsher Police are more geared up to finding lost dogs and issuing Pedlars certificates but surely the dizzy Cows in charge of the Country and Home Office could find time to put their knitting down and send in the Men from the Yard!
I am not quite sure where to start talking about a tourist city with a medieval cathedral just down the road from Stonehenge, but as you dont appear to know the Met Counter-Terrorism Branch took over last Tuesday, 8 days ago, I wont bother.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/06/counter-terrorism-take-on-russian-spy-sergei-skripal-poison-case
They lived in an estate outside the city centre Sproty so no CCTV round there - unless their neighbours had some.
It's very unlikely they were poisoned in the city that afternoon. Of all the people they came into contact with, the only other person who has been hospitalised is the police officer who went to the house. So the indications are they got it there. Maybe on the car, maybe not.
The person who applied the poison may never have been in Salisbury - they may never have been in the country. It may have come through the post, it may have been something the daughter brought over. There's a lot more knitting to be done on this case yet.
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Wilts yes I was aware that the counter terroism unit became involved very quickly it's part of the National anti terror it protocols that exist.
I was merely emphasising the fact that it is in a quiet backwater, their movements that day have been easily documented,but even on Private housing estates there is CCTV and in shripals case it will be covert and abundant around his house,also every car that has entered or left Salisbury will have been checked on the Police National Computer so if you have got anything dodgy going on, you will be getting a knock on the door.
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Sproty
Funny that Andrei Lugavoi has never had a knock on his door despite the copious CCTV footage pinning him to the place where Litvinenko was poisoned. Or the trail of radioactivity that just happened to be found on the planes he’d taken across Europe.
Still, I’m sure it’s just a coincidence. Putin’s nowt to be worried about is he?
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No offence taken Billy, I was trying to get a wider discussion going really, Not a subtle way to do it I admit.
I agree about Putin's dismissive view on our ability to stop his posturing, but in this case he just may have gone too far, far more moves will be going on behind the scenes than we will be privy to, especially if the banks become involved, an area where we are still a force to be reckoned with globally, and can do him damage.
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The Russians are now saying that Soviet Russia and the Russian Federation never had a programme to develop Novichok, why did n't they day? 😀😀😀😀😀
Only the Russian Embassy in London tweeted that ex Russian spies defected to the UK so we would know how to make it now 🤔🤔🤔🤔
So where did these ex Russian spies learn how to make it if Russie did n't develop it 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
I think the Russians are telling little fibs 😂😂😂😂
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Lots on claims of a false flag operation on twitter.
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Nudge. I’d be astonished if they weren’t. The Internet Research Agency is a very efficient organisation.
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We'll never know though will we? The government give us enough info to get worried about the filthy Russians but g it go quiet in a few more days.
That Russian spy dude was probably on a night shift at the Kryptonite factory near Salisbury, fell asleep in his nuclear soup and then went for a beer before he got f**ked up.
Governments all over it quick sharp, blame the Russians, The Russians are coming.
Meanwhile in Donny, nudga is getting slightly nervous about the Red Bear tearing shit up when I get a letter from the council telling me my council tax bill has gone up.
They cant pull the wool over my eyes I tell thee.
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So if it does pan out to be the Russians,bearing in mind we were wrong over the Iraq war and wrong to bomb the Serbs in 2002.
Militarily what can we do, the only way we can cause mischief towards them is to impose a no fly ban over Syria and stand by at RAF Akouritri for the big Dogfight.
We can then shoot down the inevitable Russian Spy Bomber when it flies down the Irish Sea towards Cheltenham (GCHQ).
If they send any nice new warships into our Pond like they did at Christmas we convert a trawler reinforce its bows and then our Auxiliary Fishery Protection vessel' HMS Boatyboatykicka da Ruski Ass 'accidently collides with the Ruski ship (remember the Icelandic fish war) that little lot should escalate things nicely!
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It's a little disturbing how keen you seem on war in one theatre or another breaking out...
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It's a little disturbing how keen you seem on war in one theatre or another breaking out...
Got to look after my British aerospace shares mate😉
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Interesting developments this evening. In November 2017 the OPCW declared that they had overseen and verified the destruction of all of Russia's stockpile of chemical weapons.
That doesn't mean that the Salisbury attack wasn't Russia - but it does mean someone somewhere has got something badly wrong. We''ll hear more about this.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/15/uks-claims-questioned-doubts-emerge-about-source-of-salisburys-novichok
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Wilts. Just a thought. Maybe Putin’s been lying to th...
Nah. Couldn’t possibly be. He’s obviously a man we can sit down with and discuss things in an atmosphere of mutual respect.
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Interesting developments this evening. In November 2017 the OPCW declared that they had overseen and verified the destruction of all of Russia's stockpile of chemical weapons.
That doesn't mean that the Salisbury attack wasn't Russia - but it does mean someone somewhere has got something badly wrong. We''ll hear more about this.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/15/uks-claims-questioned-doubts-emerge-about-source-of-salisburys-novichok
Only 5 months ago, maybe they missed the sachet of powder in Putins top draw
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I figured it wouldn’t be long before this one put in his two pennorth.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-43414025
If he wasn’t a scheming, devious, manipulating zealot, I’d call him an idiot for what he’s saying here: They’ve never told me what I have to say on my show therefore there’s no propaganda on RT.
Like I say, he’s too smart to be that stupid, so he’s willingly ignoring how propaganda works. You don’t make believable propaganda by churning it out every second of the day. You give the impression of a free and fair approach by allowing free and fair content a good proportion of the time. Then, when you slide the propaganda in, in other programmes, it doesn’t come across as propaganda.
Course Salmond and Putin have a common goal. Salmond’s entire existence is aimed at separating Scotland from the U.K. That would fundamentally weaken us as a regional power. And Putin wants all the stronger nations in Europe weakened so that Russia is freer to project its power.
A well-matched pair.
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It's a little disturbing how keen you seem on war in one theatre or another breaking out...
Got to look after my British aerospace shares mate😉
I'd put money on that you've never been to war. If you had you wouldn't joke about sending a generation of this countries young men off to their death. Horrible!
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It's a little disturbing how keen you seem on war in one theatre or another breaking out...
Got to look after my British aerospace shares mate😉
I'd put money on that you've never been to war. If you had you wouldn't joke about sending a generation of this countries young men off to their death. Horrible!
And neither have you unless you are over 90 years old.
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/12/tory-links-russia-saudi-links-corbyn-spy-extremism (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/12/tory-links-russia-saudi-links-corbyn-spy-extremism)
There may be a question of timing but I don't think there's any question of substance.
I agree about the links but there's no escaping the obvious political opportunism here . A definite and foolish own goal that Corbyn has gifted his political opponents . Expect this to be played to the electorate time and again at the next council and national elections .
I think this one action may have undone all the hard work achieved at the last snap election - it was May's " Thatcher moment " and JC has once again gifted the right wing hawks in the Tory Party all the political capital they need to offset at least some of the Brexit " losses .
They ( the Tories ) have dug a grave for themselves and JC has dived into it.
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Asking the PM to send a sample of the nerve agent to Russia for them to check it out is beyond stupid. What the hell does he think the outcome of that would be? They get it, check it and say, “Oh sorry! Fair cop”?
If they got a sample, they would test it, find it negative and scream from the rooftops that they were vindicated.
He's either being naive in the extreme here, in implicitly trusting Russia to be straight. Or...well God knows “or what...”
Yes and we know how well versed the Russians are in altering samples given how their athletes stand up to scrutiny and are banned from marching under the Russian flag.
Just how naive is Corbyn, surely he should have learnt the lessons from the downed Malaysian MH17 and the interference with the Dutch investigation on the ground.
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Sporty, the last report I saw was that it may have been smeared on the door handles of their car.
That's interesting,very naive way of doing it, probably 20/30 CCTV systems operating in the immediate vicinity plus folks with Dash cams.
So it wasn't smeared on the handles when the car was sat outside their house then?
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It's a little disturbing how keen you seem on war in one theatre or another breaking out...
Got to look after my British aerospace shares mate😉
I'd put money on that you've never been to war. If you had you wouldn't joke about sending a generation of this countries young men off to their death. Horrible!
And neither have you unless you are over 90 years old.
Bloody hell, how old were the soldiers we sent to Afghanistan?? Ben Parkinson looks good for his age, doesn't he?
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Interesting developments this evening. In November 2017 the OPCW declared that they had overseen and verified the destruction of all of Russia's stockpile of chemical weapons.
That doesn't mean that the Salisbury attack wasn't Russia - but it does mean someone somewhere has got something badly wrong. We''ll hear more about this.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/15/uks-claims-questioned-doubts-emerge-about-source-of-salisburys-novichok
Wilts the " drugs cheat " labs in Sochi would say the Russians have form in altering documents samples etc. They go under the Olympic flag and they still aren't clean !!
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The Russians are now saying that Soviet Russia and the Russian Federation never had a programme to develop Novichok, why did n't they day? 😀😀😀😀😀
Only the Russian Embassy in London tweeted that ex Russian spies defected to the UK so we would know how to make it now 🤔🤔🤔🤔
So where did these ex Russian spies learn how to make it if Russie did n't develop it 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
I think the Russians are telling little fibs 😂😂😂😂
Thanks I missed this Filo , their arrogant and carefree attitude to chemicals and drugs in general tell you all you need to know about these cheating, lying tw**s .......it's in their DNA.
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So if it does pan out to be the Russians,bearing in mind we were wrong over the Iraq war and wrong to bomb the Serbs in 2002.
Militarily what can we do, the only way we can cause mischief towards them is to impose a no fly ban over Syria and stand by at RAF Akouritri for the big Dogfight.
We can then shoot down the inevitable Russian Spy Bomber when it flies down the Irish Sea towards Cheltenham (GCHQ).
If they send any nice new warships into our Pond like they did at Christmas we convert a trawler reinforce its bows and then our Auxiliary Fishery Protection vessel' HMS Boatyboatykicka da Ruski Ass 'accidently collides with the Ruski ship (remember the Icelandic fish war) that little lot should escalate things nicely!
Are you a Russian bot ? On another thread you were espousing your patriotism and now you are disparaging our navy......I hope you are just jesting ?
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I think Sproty nodded off during the Gulf wars, Afghanistan, and other peacekeeping activities in Kosovo, Bosnia, Croatia , Macedonia etc.
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It's a little disturbing how keen you seem on war in one theatre or another breaking out...
Got to look after my British aerospace shares mate😉
I'd put money on that you've never been to war. If you had you wouldn't joke about sending a generation of this countries young men off to their death. Horrible!
And neither have you unless you are over 90 years old.
I must have imagined my twenties then.
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It's a little disturbing how keen you seem on war in one theatre or another breaking out...
Got to look after my British aerospace shares mate😉
I'd put money on that you've never been to war. If you had you wouldn't joke about sending a generation of this countries young men off to their death. Horrible!
And neither have you unless you are over 90 years old.
I must have imagined my twenties then.
Haha , I remember my dear old dad in Malaysia and Aden.
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So if it does pan out to be the Russians,bearing in mind we were wrong over the Iraq war and wrong to bomb the Serbs in 2002.
Militarily what can we do, the only way we can cause mischief towards them is to impose a no fly ban over Syria and stand by at RAF Akouritri for the big Dogfight.
We can then shoot down the inevitable Russian Spy Bomber when it flies down the Irish Sea towards Cheltenham (GCHQ).
If they send any nice new warships into our Pond like they did at Christmas we convert a trawler reinforce its bows and then our Auxiliary Fishery Protection vessel' HMS Boatyboatykicka da Ruski Ass 'accidently collides with the Ruski ship (remember the Icelandic fish war) that little lot should escalate things nicely!
How am I disparaging our Navy?
Are you a Russian bot ? On another thread you were espousing your patriotism and now you are disparaging our navy......I hope you are just jesting ?
So if it does pan out to be the Russians,bearing in mind we were wrong over the Iraq war and wrong to bomb the Serbs in 2002.
Militarily what can we do, the only way we can cause mischief towards them is to impose a no fly ban over Syria and stand by at RAF Akouritri for the big Dogfight.
We can then shoot down the inevitable Russian Spy Bomber when it flies down the Irish Sea towards Cheltenham (GCHQ).
If they send any nice new warships into our Pond like they did at Christmas we convert a trawler reinforce its bows and then our Auxiliary Fishery Protection vessel' HMS Boatyboatykicka da Ruski Ass 'accidently collides with the Ruski ship (remember the Icelandic fish war) that little lot should escalate things nicely!
Are you a Russian bot ? On another thread you were espousing your patriotism and now you are disparaging our navy......I hope you are just jesting ?
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German Rover in your post you referred to sending an entire generation of young men to war, when was the last time that happened?
-
Interesting developments this evening. In November 2017 the OPCW declared that they had overseen and verified the destruction of all of Russia's stockpile of chemical weapons.
That doesn't mean that the Salisbury attack wasn't Russia - but it does mean someone somewhere has got something badly wrong. We''ll hear more about this.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/15/uks-claims-questioned-doubts-emerge-about-source-of-salisburys-novichok
Wilts the " drugs cheat " labs in Sochi would say the Russians have form in altering documents samples etc. They go under the Olympic flag and they still aren't clean !!
If you troubled yourself to read the story in the link Hoola you would see it is the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), an independent, intergovernmental, organisation based in the Hague who made that claim - not any Russian lab in Sochi or anywhere else. The role of the OPCW is to implement the 1998 Chemical Warfare Convention and destroying all the chemical weapons held by the countries who are signatories to that convention.
What Billy alluded to in his earlier post is nearer the truth, in that the reason the novichock supplies were not destroyed is that OPCW have no record of them (they can only destroy the weapons that are declared to them) as the Russian government is denying it ever made novichock or that it ever existed. If this is what was used in Salisbury then they are of course in violation of the CWC.
https://www.expatica.com/nl/news/country-news/Britain-espionage-Russia-OPCW-politics_1757098.html
-
Interesting developments this evening. In November 2017 the OPCW declared that they had overseen and verified the destruction of all of Russia's stockpile of chemical weapons.
That doesn't mean that the Salisbury attack wasn't Russia - but it does mean someone somewhere has got something badly wrong. We''ll hear more about this.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/15/uks-claims-questioned-doubts-emerge-about-source-of-salisburys-novichok
Wilts the " drugs cheat " labs in Sochi would say the Russians have form in altering documents samples etc. They go under the Olympic flag and they still aren't clean !!
If you troubled yourself to read the story in the link Hoola you would see it is the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), an independent, intergovernmental, organisation based in the Hague who made that claim - not any Russian lab in Sochi or anywhere else. The role of the OPCW is to implement the 1998 Chemical Warfare Convention and destroying all the chemical weapons held by the countries who are signatories to that convention.
What Billy alluded to in his earlier post is nearer the truth, in that the reason the novichock supplies were not destroyed is that OPCW have no record of them (they can only destroy the weapons that are declared to them) as the Russian government is denying it ever made novichock or that it ever existed. If this is what was used in Salisbury then they are of course in violation of the CWC.
https://www.expatica.com/nl/news/country-news/Britain-espionage-Russia-OPCW-politics_1757098.html
Wilts are you being serious have you read my contributions to the thread too. I used this as purely as a comparison to the way that Putin's Govt and secret services operate generally . How given the opportunity they would muddy the waters , alter the evidence as they attempted to do with MH 17 in Ukraine .
I read no further than your first sentence as I'm sure you have misunderstood what I'm trying to say. Hopefully but I'm not holding my breath , you might just apologise to me ......I'm totally Up to speed on this situation despite your thoughts otherwise and yes I have read every inch of that report .
If you thought I was some spotty youth with a couple of Ö Levels think again - we used to have this " my intellect is better than yours " shite some time ago seems sadly it's back again .
Altering documents was the very fact I was alluding to and yes siree that was the first thing I troubled to do ..... feck me
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German Rover in your post you referred to sending an entire generation of young men to war, when was the last time that happened?
But you were answering the first line of his reply, not the second.
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It's a little disturbing how keen you seem on war in one theatre or another breaking out...
Got to look after my British aerospace shares mate😉
I'd put money on that you've never been to war. If you had you wouldn't joke about sending a generation of this countries young men off to their death. Horrible!
And neither have you unless you are over 90 years old.
Bloody hell, how old were the soldiers we sent to Afghanistan?? Ben Parkinson looks good for his age, doesn't he?
Aye and I was in the Falklands and Northern Ireland and nowhere near 90 years old although neither were technically wars there was still some t**t trying to shoot you or blow you up :(
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And now the death of f Nikolai Glushkov. Its a mirky world.
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German Rover in your post you referred to sending an entire generation of young men to war, when was the last time that happened?
But you were answering the first line of his reply, not the second.
WHAT are you babbling on about?
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Interesting developments this evening. In November 2017 the OPCW declared that they had overseen and verified the destruction of all of Russia's stockpile of chemical weapons.
That doesn't mean that the Salisbury attack wasn't Russia - but it does mean someone somewhere has got something badly wrong. We''ll hear more about this.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/15/uks-claims-questioned-doubts-emerge-about-source-of-salisburys-novichok
Wilts the " drugs cheat " labs in Sochi would say the Russians have form in altering documents samples etc. They go under the Olympic flag and they still aren't clean !!
If you troubled yourself to read the story in the link Hoola you would see it is the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), an independent, intergovernmental, organisation based in the Hague who made that claim - not any Russian lab in Sochi or anywhere else. The role of the OPCW is to implement the 1998 Chemical Warfare Convention and destroying all the chemical weapons held by the countries who are signatories to that convention.
What Billy alluded to in his earlier post is nearer the truth, in that the reason the novichock supplies were not destroyed is that OPCW have no record of them (they can only destroy the weapons that are declared to them) as the Russian government is denying it ever made novichock or that it ever existed. If this is what was used in Salisbury then they are of course in violation of the CWC.
https://www.expatica.com/nl/news/country-news/Britain-espionage-Russia-OPCW-politics_1757098.html
As I understand it Novichok is a mixture of two ingredients, those two ingredients are not chemical weapons until mixed together, so Russia had no need to stock Novichok, just the two ingredients instead. Therefore the Russians were bypassing the regulations to keep chemical weapons and thats why they never declared Novichok
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Interesting developments this evening. In November 2017 the OPCW declared that they had overseen and verified the destruction of all of Russia's stockpile of chemical weapons.
That doesn't mean that the Salisbury attack wasn't Russia - but it does mean someone somewhere has got something badly wrong. We''ll hear more about this.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/15/uks-claims-questioned-doubts-emerge-about-source-of-salisburys-novichok
Wilts the " drugs cheat " labs in Sochi would say the Russians have form in altering documents samples etc. They go under the Olympic flag and they still aren't clean !!
If you troubled yourself to read the story in the link Hoola you would see it is the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), an independent, intergovernmental, organisation based in the Hague who made that claim - not any Russian lab in Sochi or anywhere else. The role of the OPCW is to implement the 1998 Chemical Warfare Convention and destroying all the chemical weapons held by the countries who are signatories to that convention.
What Billy alluded to in his earlier post is nearer the truth, in that the reason the novichock supplies were not destroyed is that OPCW have no record of them (they can only destroy the weapons that are declared to them) as the Russian government is denying it ever made novichock or that it ever existed. If this is what was used in Salisbury then they are of course in violation of the CWC.
https://www.expatica.com/nl/news/country-news/Britain-espionage-Russia-OPCW-politics_1757098.html
As I understand it Novichok is a mixture of two ingredients, those two ingredients are not chemical weapons until mixed together, so Russia had no need to stock Novichok, just the two ingredients instead. Therefore the Russians were bypassing the regulations to keep chemical weapons and thats why they never declared Novichok
Filo you may have a point here , one I certainly didn't consider but I doubt whether this would have got past the CWC inspectors charged with neutralizing this . Why would a ' state sponsored ' killing use such an easily identifiable means of killing for just one agent .Is it likely that the delay laced with daft sarcasm from the Russians just a means to buy the time to find out why and who if anyone had the novichok unwittingly under their care. T he myriad of departments and labs to be contacted in Russia must be immense
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Hoola
You’re falling into precisely the conspiracy theory trap that Putin wants you to.
There is an elementally simple reason why Putin will have ordered this, and ordered it to be brazenly obvious.
He is publicly bullying and testing the Govt.
He’s got the Tory party in hock to Russian gangster money. That’s not come about by accident. There’s an obvious quid pro quo. It is that this Govt can be pushed around and humiliated and can’t hit back with really hard financial penalties against the Russian interests in the City.
What he’s doing is showing how it’s going to be from now on. He can effectively humiliate and bully us with a free hand.
What Putin wants more than anything is freedom to operate across the region and the globe without fear of being restrained. Effectively making Russia a Great Power again. There was a Russian expert on R4 this morning who hit the nail on the head. He said Russia’s political culture sees geopolitics as a zero sum game. If I win you must lose. So if Russia is to be great, we have to be neutralised and made less effective.
See it that way and this is obvious behaviour from him. He’s demonstrating to the world how weak we are. That’s all that matters. And he’s risking nowt with the World Cup. It appears WE who have been attacked haven’t even got the balls to boycott the competition so there’s zero chance anyone else will.
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Billy I think Putin is badly done to by the West, we have stationed troops in ex Warsaw Pact Countries something we said we would never do.
What would happen if the likes of Serbia,Montenegro ,republics Serbska in Bosnia and Macedonia invited Putin to Station ants and military Aircraft in their territory.
I can answer that myself there would be a war.
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Consider this conspiracy. This was done by the FSB with foreknowledge of MI6. This has benefits to both countries. Putin gets to solidify his hard man image by coming down very hard on traitors. This country gets the opportunity to clamp down on the Oligarchs that have taken hold here.
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Ldr
It wouldn’t benefit Putin to have Western countries clamp down on Russian money invested over here. By some estimates, $200bn of it belongs directly to him.
But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.
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But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.
Aye. I think the Ukraine might have something to say about having another countries tanks on their lawn.
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Ldr
It wouldn’t benefit Putin to have Western countries clamp down on Russian money invested over here. By some estimates, $200bn of it belongs directly to him.
But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.
I think that if you speak to any Russian they will be very critical of NATO moving troops into ex Warsaw Pact countries.
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But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.
[/quote
Aye. I think the Ukraine might have something to say about having another countries tanks on their lawn.
The Ukraines problem is that there are 8 or 9 million Russians living there who want where they live to be part of Russia.
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But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.
[/quote
Aye. I think the Ukraine might have something to say about having another countries tanks on their lawn.
The Ukraines problem is that there are 8 or 9 million Russians living there who want where they live to be part of Russia.
Hoola
You’re falling into precisely the conspiracy theory trap that Putin wants you to.
There is an elementally simple reason why Putin will have ordered this, and ordered it to be brazenly obvious.
He is publicly bullying and testing the Govt.
He’s got the Tory party in hock to Russian gangster money. That’s not come about by accident. There’s an obvious quid pro quo. It is that this Govt can be pushed around and humiliated and can’t hit back with really hard financial penalties against the Russian interests in the City.
What he’s doing is showing how it’s going to be from now on. He can effectively humiliate and bully us with a free hand.
What Putin wants more than anything is freedom to operate across the region and the globe without fear of being restrained. Effectively making Russia a Great Power again. There was a Russian expert on R4 this morning who hit the nail on the head. He said Russia’s political culture sees geopolitics as a zero sum game. If I win you must lose. So if Russia is to be great, we have to be neutralised and made less effective.
See it that way and this is obvious behaviour from him. He’s demonstrating to the world how weak we are. That’s all that matters. And he’s risking nowt with the World Cup. It appears WE who have been attacked haven’t even got the balls to boycott the competition so there’s zero chance anyone else will.
Hoola
You’re falling into precisely the conspiracy theory trap that Putin wants you to.
There is an elementally simple reason why Putin will have ordered this, and ordered it to be brazenly obvious.
He is publicly bullying and testing the Govt.
He’s got the Tory party in hock to Russian gangster money. That’s not come about by accident. There’s an obvious quid pro quo. It is that this Govt can be pushed around and humiliated and can’t hit back with really hard financial penalties against the Russian interests in the City.
What he’s doing is showing how it’s going to be from now on. He can effectively humiliate and bully us with a free hand.
What Putin wants more than anything is freedom to operate across the region and the globe without fear of being restrained. Effectively making Russia a Great Power again. There was a Russian expert on R4 this morning who hit the nail on the head. He said Russia’s political culture sees geopolitics as a zero sum game. If I win you must lose. So if Russia is to be great, we have to be neutralised and made less effective.
See it that way and this is obvious behaviour from him. He’s demonstrating to the world how weak we are. That’s all that matters. And he’s risking nowt with the World Cup. It appears WE who have been attacked haven’t even got the balls to boycott the competition so there’s zero chance anyone else will.
I don't think I'm falling into any trap because I have accepted that at the very least the Russian State is responsible for the loss of some or all of this nerve agent.
All but the stupid accept that novichok was made with a view to it being used by that State and therefore they are fully culpable for it's very existence, control and handing over under International agreements for destruction late last year under agreements wherever it was kept and by whoever was keeping it.
I agree that in all likelihood that this was undeclared and by that nature ultimately was his responsibility as the man in charge to hand over any stocks in existence.
Logic would argue, that given the nature of this man that he would use this nerve agent to piss off and play with those that were in hock to him ....to mock them or in his words to " ensure that wherever they were any TRAITOR to the motherland would CHOKE on the 30 pieces of silver " ( paraphrased slightly ).
Now I haven't fallen for any trap because ultimately whatever the circumstances ....he as the President is guilty.
Whether that's because he knew or one of the Russian agencies knew of it's existence and used it is irrelevant the buck still stops with him .In fact the theory that he might have " lost control " of a warfare grade chemical nerve agent is even more damning potentially given its lethal properties.
I agree that there's only the very slimmest chance that the Russian State could have lost control of it but it's possible and I don't accept that I've fallen into any trap with this scheming bas**@rd. I fully accept why our Govt. and of course you have reached this conclusion - it is by far the most likely one given all the facts currently in the public domain. So no traps, no " get out of jail free " cards for Poots but just the slimmest chance that maybe someone has lost patience with him and might be preparing to move against him just when he thinks he could be reaching his finest moment with the world at his door ?
Either way he is knee deep in shit of his own making . Either way this Govt. of ours needs to start working in the intetests of the people , stop taking what amounts to serious bribrd
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But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.
[/quote
Aye. I think the Ukraine might have something to say about having another countries tanks on their lawn.
The Ukraines problem is that there are 8 or 9 million Russians living there who want where they live to be part of Russia.
I hope you don't think that having your ethnic group in another's country gives a leader the right to attack a sovereign country ? Is he protecting them by formenting trouble , sending tanks and troops in , giving these people the means to shoot down civilian airliners ( MH17 ) . Make no bones about it this man is a control freak with both the means and motives to cause problems anywhere in the world is he justified ?
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Ldr
It wouldn’t benefit Putin to have Western countries clamp down on Russian money invested over here. By some estimates, $200bn of it belongs directly to him.
But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.
I think that if you speak to any Russian they will be very critical of NATO moving troops into ex Warsaw Pact countries.
They would be equally critical at the thought of returning to a greater Russia or USSR after decades of existing once again as sovereign countries in their own right !
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Ldr
It wouldn’t benefit Putin to have Western countries clamp down on Russian money invested over here. By some estimates, $200bn of it belongs directly to him.
But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.
I think that if you speak to any Russian they will be very critical of NATO moving troops into ex Warsaw Pact countries.
Given that these ex-Warsaw Pact counties are members of NATO and that therefore their own armed forces are also NATO troops, it'd be very difficult for those countries NOT to have NATO troops on their own soil!
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Ldr
It wouldn’t benefit Putin to have Western countries clamp down on Russian money invested over here. By some estimates, $200bn of it belongs directly to him.
But yeah Sproty. We’re being really unfair to him.
I think that if you speak to any Russian they will be very critical of NATO moving troops into ex Warsaw Pact countries.
Yeah? Have you tried speaking to folk from ex- Warsaw Pact countries?
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Didn't Russia settle thousands of their citizens into the Baltic States so that they had an excuse to supposedly protect their interests and rights.
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Didn't Russia settle thousands of their citizens into the Baltic States so that they had an excuse to supposedly protect their interests and rights.
Such as the Kalingrad Oblast? Sandwiched between Lithuanian and Poland.
There's a joke from that part of the world...2 old men are sat in a village in Eastern Europe during their lifetimes it has been part of Poland, then Part of Russia etc. One say to the othe "hey what country is our village in these days,Russia or Poland.?"the other replies "Poland why?" The first replies
"Thank god for that I just couldn't be doing with another one of those Russian Winters!" 😉
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Here's another one, East of Dresden in Germany is a region called Lusatia, Cottbus is in Lusatia. The region is the Homeland of the SORBS. The sorbs were part of the Serb nation which migrated from the region above China approx 650ad with the Bulgars and Avjars,they settled in Lusatia and their Brothers further South in the Balkans. They where called the WENDS by the Germans.
They have always been loyal to their German Kings good men loyal and true.
In 1876 Serbian found itself in the impossible position of having to declare war on the Ottoman Empire, due to atrocities being committed by Orthodox Christians in Bosnia and Hercegovina and in Bulgaria.
Many thousands of SORBS joined their Army which was backed by Russia and Prusia. Their best General in 1914 was a SORB who had stayed after 1876 he was known as STURM.
My point being that Eastern Europe is a complicated place when it comes to Population distribution,I could cite examples all night long!
It's a mess and there is no easy solution to any of it.
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Idler
I doubt they did it as an excuse. But certainly there was significant migration of Russians to the Baltic states during Soviet times, along with promotion of the Russian language and culture over the Estonian and Latvian ones (there are many fewer Russians in Lithuania). So now you have a very significant minority in each country whose first allegiance is towards Russia. That COULD be used as a pretext for action by Putin. Which is actually too scary to think about.
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Idler
I doubt they did it as an excuse. But certainly there was significant migration of Russians to the Baltic states during Soviet times, along with promotion of the Russian language and culture over the Estonian and Latvian ones (there are many fewer Russians in Lithuania). So now you have a very significant minority in each country whose first allegiance is towards Russia. That COULD be used as a pretext for action by Putin. Which is actually too scary to think about.
Actually the region you are discussing was mainly populated by Germans and for many centuries from about 1250 ad was known as East Prussia.
The indigenous population was forced out in 1944/5 some 2.5 million, the rest approx 500,00 were deported to Siberia the soviets created the Kalingrad Oblast and gave the Memel region to Lithuania.
Another region why Russians don't like NATO troops in the region. Should a right wing Government get back into power in Germany you will be hearing a great deal about that region in the news!
Kalingrad proper name is Konigsberg!
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Sproty
You’re talking about Kaliningrad. I’m talking about Estonia and Latvia.
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Sproty
You’re talking about Kaliningrad. I’m talking about Estonia and Latvia.
My apologies I don't think those 2 countries Estonia and Latvia have a large Ethnic Russian population to be honest
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Estonia has suffered from a decline in the birth rate since 1945 .the Russian ,Ukrainian and Belorussian element has decreased from 30% to 25%. Since 1989.
The situation in Latvia is similar, decline in the Russian element is due to the closing of military bases after 1989.
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Sproty.
As you say, ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia make up about 25% of the population.
That compares to about 17% in Ukraine.
There are a number of regions close to the borders with Russia where ethnic Russians are concentrated at 70-100% of the population.
Just like in Ukraine.
In Ukraine the argument was that ethnic Russians were being treated like second class citizens and oppressed. So they spontaneously took up arms against the Ukranian Govt with moral support from Russia. Of course that is bullshit. Russia provided guns, tanks and missiles to the uprising and its well documented that the Russian army has been actively involved in the fighting.
Now, imagine that happening in Estonia. A “spontaneous uprising of ethnic Russian who rebel against being oppressed by the Estonian majority.”
Russia says, “We morally support you but of course we can’t get actively involved in fighting against a NATO State.”
But in reality, Spetznaz are fighting alongside the uprising.
In other words, precisely like Ukraine but with a NATO country on the receiving end.
Not a pleasant scenario. Either Article V gets invoked or NATO is a busted flush. Neither of those are worlds that I want my kids to live in. Which is why it’s essential that Purim knows the red line beforehand.
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Sproty.
As you say, ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia make up about 25% of the population.
That compares to about 17% in Ukraine.
There are a number of regions close to the borders with Russia where ethnic Russians are concentrated at 70-100% of the population.
Just like in Ukraine.
In Ukraine the argument was that ethnic Russians were being treated like second class citizens and oppressed. So they spontaneously took up arms against the Ukranian Govt with moral support from Russia. Of course that is bullshit. Russia provided guns, tanks and missiles to the uprising and its well documented that the Russian army has been actively involved in the fighting.
Now, imagine that happening in Estonia. A “spontaneous uprising of ethnic Russian who rebel against being oppressed by the Estonian majority.”
Russia says, “We morally support you but of course we can’t get actively involved in fighting against a NATO State.”
But in reality, Spetznaz are fighting alongside the uprising.
In other words, precisely like Ukraine but with a NATO country on the receiving end.
Not a pleasant scenario. Either Article V gets invoked or NATO is a busted flush. Neither of those are worlds that I want my kids to live in. Which is why it’s essential that Purim knows the red line beforehand.
Billy these countries are tiny in comparison to the Ukraine. You also have to know a bit about the History of Russia to understand why they will never give up the Crimea an also lend support to a vast Russian population in Eastern Ukraine.
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Just like the Sudetenland, eh?
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Sproty.
As you say, ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia make up about 25% of the population.
That compares to about 17% in Ukraine.
There are a number of regions close to the borders with Russia where ethnic Russians are concentrated at 70-100% of the population.
Just like in Ukraine.
In Ukraine the argument was that ethnic Russians were being treated like second class citizens and oppressed. So they spontaneously took up arms against the Ukranian Govt with moral support from Russia. Of course that is bullshit. Russia provided guns, tanks and missiles to the uprising and its well documented that the Russian army has been actively involved in the fighting.
Now, imagine that happening in Estonia. A “spontaneous uprising of ethnic Russian who rebel against being oppressed by the Estonian majority.”
Russia says, “We morally support you but of course we can’t get actively involved in fighting against a NATO State.”
But in reality, Spetznaz are fighting alongside the uprising.
In other words, precisely like Ukraine but with a NATO country on the receiving end.
Not a pleasant scenario. Either Article V gets invoked or NATO is a busted flush. Neither of those are worlds that I want my kids to live in. Which is why it’s essential that Purim knows the red line beforehand.
Billy these countries are tiny in comparison to the Ukraine. You also have to know a bit about the History of Russia to understand why they will never give up the Crimea an also lend support to a vast Russian population in Eastern Ukraine.
Yeh the famous NovoRossiya, Russia would claim all Slavs. Strangely enough there are reportedly more Turks outside of Turkey than in it (not incl. those in Syria of course )
Then of course historically we want all English speaking nations back just like Putin .......we can all play that expansionist shite.
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Just like the Sudetenland, eh?
[/quote
Where is there any comparison?
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Just like the Sudetenland, eh?
[/quote
Where is there any comparison?
German speaking people in Southern and Western Czechoslavakia a damn good reason for Hitler to expand claiming that they needed help . Whether they did or not was never a reason for Hitler to stop his expansion pulling in all Germanic peoples under him , the same applied to Austria who were more than willing after losing the Hapsburg Empire. I'm not sure that the Czechs were treated bacly though by the authorities .
We have a large population in Australia that would identify with this country , however that doesn't give us an excuse to take it over.
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A difficult comparison is the Sudetenland, the Germans did not loose the Great War they entered into an Armistice and in their eyes got shafted in 1919, losing a lot of their former territory to Poland and Czechoslovakia.
The German Army was never beaten never surrendered. They went away Bitter and started studying their former enemies tactics.
The Russians on the other hand won the Second World War and suffered great loss, the territory's they had conquered /liberated became the Warsaw Pact, when Gorbachov gave up the former Warsaw Pact territory it was agreed that NATO would not station troops in any former Warsaw Pact territory. Hence the bitterness.
Russia isn't interested in occupying 3 tiny Baltic states it has an ice free port in Kalingrad.
The Ukraine is a country created by Russia, it only exists as a country because of Russia, the Crimea was conquered by the Russians who militarised it hundreds of years ago.
Bit like Norther Ireland really.... here you go!
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A difficult comparison is the Sudetenland, the Germans did not loose the Great War they entered into an Armistice and in their eyes got shafted in 1919, losing a lot of their former territory to Poland and Czechoslovakia.
The German Army was never beaten never surrendered. They went away Bitter and started studying their former enemies tactics.
The Russians on the other hand won the Second World War and suffered great loss, the territory's they had conquered /liberated became the Warsaw Pact, when Gorbachov gave up the former Warsaw Pact territory it was agreed that NATO would not station troops in any former Warsaw Pact territory. Hence the bitterness.
Russia isn't interested in occupying 3 tiny Baltic states it has an ice free port in Kalingrad.
The Ukraine is a country created by Russia, it only exists as a country because of Russia, the Crimea was conquered by the Russians who militarised it hundreds of years ago.
Bit like Norther Ireland really.... here you go!
Yes I'm aware of all that as interesting as it might be but how would you explain the breaking of the tri--lateral agreement making Crimea sovereign Ukrainian territory by all those little green men . Putin is a liar, a landgrabber and makes no bones about wanting to expand . He forments trouble wherever he can and will use any means possible to achieve this whilst interfering in other countries elections , Referenda etc.
I'm not sure how you draw comparison between the Crimea and Northern Ireland exactly ?
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The Ukraine is a country created by Russia, it only exists as a country because of Russia, the Crimea was conquered by the Russians who militarised it hundreds of years ago.
So because you conquer and militarise somewhere, it means you've created the country? Nothing to do with the culture and ethnicity of the native population at all??
Ukraine has also been conquered by Lithuania, Poland, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire and Nazi Germany. Why are you giving Russia all the credit? Ukraine gained its current independence when it seceded from the USSR, not Russia.
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The Ukraine is a country created by Russia, it only exists as a country because of Russia, the Crimea was conquered by the Russians who militarised it hundreds of years ago.
So because you conquer and militarise somewhere, it means you've created the country? Nothing to do with the culture and ethnicity of the native population at all??
Ukraine has also been conquered by Lithuania, Poland, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire and Nazi Germany. Why are you giving Russia all the credit? Ukraine gained its current independence when it seceded from the USSR, not Russia.
Because the Russians drove out the Ottomans, Poles and Crimea Tartars.
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And then the Ukraines got rid of the Russians. So?
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When did they do that?
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The people of an area of land are the rightful occupiers, whoever they are conquered by.
Should they at any time have the means to change their circumstances by overthrowing the invaders they are surely in the right.
People have a bad habit of confusing Russia with the USSR.
A bit like comparing Britain with the British Empire.
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Is this the 1st sign that they have had enough of softly softly, "you are playing with fire" is the next retort to come from our Eastern friends Does this means the gloves are being readied for taking off after the laughing and joking from them has finished?
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The people of an area of land are the rightful occupiers, whoever they are conquered by.
Should they at any time have the means to change their circumstances by overthrowing the invaders they are surely in the right.
People have a bad habit of confusing Russia with the USSR.
A bit like comparing Britain with the British Empire.
So the Russians have been the indigenous population of the Crimea since the 1700’s so that’s settled that argument then!
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As time goes on, I have to say the UK's position is looking increasingly dodgy, three people have survived an attack with the most deadly nerve agent known, and there is no antidote for that agent. Either our government are telling lies, or they are just shit playing the propoganda war
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As time goes on, I have to say the UK's position is looking increasingly dodgy, three people have survived an attack with the most deadly nerve agent known, and there is no antidote for that agent. Either our government are telling lies, or they are just shit playing the propoganda war
As soon as it happened I tweeted that the UK had to be favourites to be behind it. The way the government have handled it makes it all look even more dodgy as you say.
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And the BBC propaganda machine was in full flow with back to back programmes, the first one about the rise of putin and then the other about the Porton down facility
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It's good to hear that both Skirpals' are improving from the effects of the military grade nerve agent and hopefully they will go one to make a full recovery.
It was a shame though to hear yesterday that the first casualties had been recorded with their two guinea pigs and pedigree cat having perished through neglect and dehydration as no-one realised they were in the house.
A particular shame as it was reported three weeks ago that the local vet had notified the police they were in there the day the poisoning reached the media and they were reported to have been rescued and taken to Porton Down for tests, hmmm?
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Johnson and Co have persuaded the International community to support them so far. If it turns out that they have been telling porkies, some of our colleagues are not going to be best pleased.
The Russians are having a field day on the information war frontline. Unless we can properly back up the claims made, Putin is set to clean up in the domestic public opinion.
We need to give the propaganda a proper gander.
Our own, as well as that of others.
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It's good to hear that both Skirpals' are improving from the effects of the military grade nerve agent and hopefully they will go one to make a full recovery.
It was a shame though to hear yesterday that the first casualties had been recorded with their two guinea pigs and pedigree cat having perished through neglect and dehydration as no-one realised they were in the house.
A particular shame as it was reported three weeks ago that the local vet had notified the police they were in there the day the poisoning reached the media and they were reported to have been rescued and taken to Porton Down for tests, hmmm?
I'm not quite sure what to make of that are you ?
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I'm not quite sure what to make of that are you ?
I have filed it away with the contradictions that May gave in her speech when she said 130 people had been treated for the effects of the poisoning, around about the same time the consultant doctor wrote to the Times to say that only 3 people were under treatment and no other member of the public they had seen had any symptoms whatsoever.
What's the truth in this case, I don't know? But the more I read about it the less I believe we are being told it.
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It is strange, it's difficult to see what's going on here now I do believe that Russia is ultimately to blame but I agree the inconsistencies are adding up - on the Russian side as well
Time that Boris Johnson and Gavin Williamson were both shown the door as well as Treeza but I think that may be coming soon enough.
Like you , I'm just filing away these inconsistencies - the story will unfold shortly I'm sure when the OPCW get to make out their reports . Gut feeling is that this was a bungled job.
Communication is not a strong point of this present government. They hide from scrutiny i.e. this case and the trade talks being negotiated with the USA and then they brief against each other or make things up ( Bojo and Gove 2015 - on going. )
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Well here’s a use of nerve agent on civilians by a regime backed by Moscow.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-43686157
You keep on navel-gazing and agonising over what to believe Wilts. You’re lucky that you have the good fortune to indulge your conscience. The people in Douma didn’t.
And by the way, once again not a word of condemnation on this from the Seamus Milne-led Labour Press Office.
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Right. Corbyn’s Office DID finally swing into gear more than 24 hours on.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/983101179310768128?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
“The horrific deaths and injuries in Douma point to a chemical attack which must be fully investigated by the UN and those responsible held to account. The need to restart real negotiations for peace and a political settlement in Syria could not be more urgent.”
Who could disagree with that?
Oh yeah...except that Douma is entirely ringed by Syrian forced who are backed by Russia and who won’t let anyone from the outside world in to see what they are doing.
Tough one eh?
Compare and contrast with Labour’s (100% correct) total condemnation of Israel for shooting dead Palestinian demonstrators.
Why should Corbyn’s office be SO assertive in one side and so dissembling in the other side?
Oh yeah! It’s because Seamus Milne is on record as saying that we shouldn’t concentrate on Russia’s crimes because it distracts attention from other countries’ crimes. Which, when you extract the logic, means Labour’s leadership has a policy of effectively turning a blind eye to Russia’s or Russia’s allies’ assassinations, bombings and gassing.
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No, it because one was captured on live tv by the world media and the other requires proper investigation by the relevant authority who can definitively say what happened (as they should have done in Salisbury).
Note the wording in this press release from the OPCW ' alleged use of chemical weapons'.
THE HAGUE, Netherlands — 9 April 2018 — The Director-General of Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), Ambassador Ahmet Üzümcü, expressed his grave concern in response to the alleged chemical weapons attack on 7 April in Douma, Syrian Arab Republic.
The OPCW Situation Centre has been closely monitoring the incident and made a preliminary analysis of the reports of the alleged use of chemical weapons immediately after they were issued. The Fact Finding Mission (FFM) is in the process of gathering further information from all available sources to establish whether chemical weapons were used. The FFM will report its findings to States Parties to the Chemical Weapons Convention.
https://reliefweb.int/report/syrian-arab-republic/opcw-director-general-allegations-chemical-weapons-use-douma-syria
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I'm not quite sure what to make of that are you ?
I have filed it away with the contradictions that May gave in her speech when she said 130 people had been treated for the effects of the poisoning, around about the same time the consultant doctor wrote to the Times to say that only 3 people were under treatment and no other member of the public they had seen had any symptoms whatsoever.
What's the truth in this case, I don't know? But the more I read about it the less I believe we are being told it.
The situation with the family pets is alarming,how embarrassing for the Wiltshire Police et al if it's true.
The latest version of the story is that the Skripals were poisoned in their home, You would have thought the pets would have been taken away to be
Monitored,I really do hope this is fake news!
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I'm not quite sure what to make of that are you ?
I have filed it away with the contradictions that May gave in her speech when she said 130 people had been treated for the effects of the poisoning, around about the same time the consultant doctor wrote to the Times to say that only 3 people were under treatment and no other member of the public they had seen had any symptoms whatsoever.
What's the truth in this case, I don't know? But the more I read about it the less I believe we are being told it.
Again I can't believe that the Prime minister of Great Britain spouted such utter garbage, its worse than the contradiction made by Porton Down re Boris Johnson's rants.
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Wilts
And of course Russia is going to say there is no evidence of a chemical weapon attack.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-43697670
And of course no UN inspectors are going to be able to get in unhindered to find evidence of a chemical attack.
So you’re left with two options:
1) Keep on insisting that the UN should be able to do its job when you know damn well that the UN cannot do its job.
2) Go on the balance of probability given a lengthy list of past form.
Of course, if you’re on record as saying that concentrating on Russian action is regrettable because it diverts attention from others’ actions then 1 is a very attractive option. And if you take option 1, how exactly are you supposed to hold Russia to account? And if you do that time, and time and time again, can you REALLY claim to even want to hold Russia to account?
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I'm not quite sure what to make of that are you ?
I have filed it away with the contradictions that May gave in her speech when she said 130 people had been treated for the effects of the poisoning, around about the same time the consultant doctor wrote to the Times to say that only 3 people were under treatment and no other member of the public they had seen had any symptoms whatsoever.
What's the truth in this case, I don't know? But the more I read about it the less I believe we are being told it.
The situation with the family pets is alarming,how embarrassing for the Wiltshire Police et al if it's true.
The latest version of the story is that the Skripals were poisoned in their home, You would have thought the pets would have been taken away to be
Monitored,I really do hope this is fake news!
It seems from the (contradictory) statements that have come out, the house was both sealed and being investigated at the same time, very strange?
The vets concerned have put a statement out on their website and facebook page if you are interested. It's worthwhile looking at the comments on the facebook page where the Skripal's neighbours are saying that it was only last week that police began interviewing them for anything suspicious they might have seen.
https://www.facebook.com/thevetssalisbury/
http://www.thevets.tv/
It's a Met Police operation Sproty although Wiltshire Police are providing some officer and a lot of admin support to it.
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You say that the UN are not going to be able to get in to Douma yet the OPCW say they are sending a Fact Finding Mission there - one of you is wrong.
It's all well and good saying that you are going to 'hold Russia to account' without knowing what it is you want to achieve from that - and what the possible consequences may be? Do you want to end the war in Syria or escalate it?
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We’re working our way through the usual insult list from the Left. I see we’ve got onto “if you don’t agree with this approach, you are a war-mongerer.”
Corbyn pulled that one last year when he was asked if he would stand by Article V of the NATO treaty if Russia invaded the Baltics, and replied that he would work to ensure that never happened. The implication being that the rest of us would NOT want to work to see that didn’t happen.
Wilts. You question is obscene. Of COURSE I want that war to end. How DARE you suggest anything else. I have a very good Syrian friend who has seen his family torn apart by that war and I hear from him regularly how his country’s and his kids’ future has been destroyed. Do YOU think that by downplaying Russia’s role, the killing and the devastation is reduced? Or, even more pertinently, by not facing down Russia, the NEXT set of killing fields will be avoided? After Grozny. And Donbas? And Aleppo?
You face them down by hitting them where it matters. In their pockets. You make damn sure they know that countries who condone and support the gassing of Douma and the obliteration of Aleppo are not to have an arm put round them and “understood” (which is what Milne has made a career suggesting). You put them outside the tent of civilised countries and you tell them they stay there until they learn how to act like civilised countries.
What you do not do is turn a blind eye to their atrocities because it doesn’t fit with your world view. Because that is beyond disgusting.
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By the way, the OPCW has sent delegations to Syria to investigate every alleged use of poison gas. Sometimes they are allowed/able to investigate on the ground. Sometimes they have to pick up their facts from the Syrian Govt. Their remit is not to establish WHO used the weapons. To quote from the report they issued after the gassing last April, “the mandate of the FFM (fact finding mission) is confined to establishing only the fact of the use of chemical weapons.”
The previous FFMs of the OPCW have frequently concluded that it was unsafe or impossible to actually investigate at the site of the alleged use of poison gas. Equally, this time the OPCW has NOT said it was going to Douma. I’ll be astonished if they ARE able to get in there.
So how exactly are we to find proof that it is Syria/Russia? And if we can’t find proof that satisfies you, do we just shrug our shoulders and move on?
EDIT.
Call it naivety. Call it mendacity. But THIS comment by Corbyn after last year’s sarin gas attack in Syria is indefensible. He said, “...we need to bend ourselves totally to getting a political settlement in Syria and allow the inspectors space to work, allow them to make sure we know who did that terrible chemical weapons attack...”
It took me 30 seconds to find this comment on the OPCW website: “The scope of the Fact-Finding Mission’s mandate does not include the task of attributing responsibility for the alleged use.”
So the OPCW CANNOT and WILL NOT “make sure we know” who was responsible. It’s the job of political leaders to piece together information and decide that. Not sit on the sidelines theorising. Corbyn is either out of his depth on this one, or he has another agenda.
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Ok Billy ,what do you want to see happen, tell us why it should happen that way and what it would achieve,Put up or shut up!
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I would want to see a much more extensive set of sanctions aimed directly at individuals and companies associated with Putin. A much harder version of the Magnitsky Act which has been discussed. And I’d want to see that linked directly to Russia’s foreign policy.
And equally importantly, I’d want ALL leading politicians to unequivocally and aggressively condemn Russian war crimes. That would mean as a fundamental first step, Corbyn sacking his Press Officer who has spent 30 years writing apologies for Stalin, Milosevic and now, Putin. It is absolutely essential that Western democracies show a united front against Russian aggression. We’ve effectively ignored Grozny, Donbass and Aleppo. It’s naive stupidity to think that Putin will stop there if we continue to placate him.
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So basically you merely want the wannabe Trotskyite faction currently misleading the Labour Party to sort itself out, you haven't got a plan to sort the immediate crisis in Syria,for which we and the US are partly to blame,due to our military support of less than trust worthy opponents to the Assad regime.
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Sproty
Astonishingly, I, like the rest of the U.N., don’t have a solution in my back pocket. What I do have is an understanding from history of where you get to in the long run when strong men push and push and are not pushed back against.
Thanks for the lesson on how Syria started. I hadn’t realised that it was complicated.
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" Thanks for the lesson on how Syria started. I hadn’t realised that it was complicated. "
PMSL
You need to get up to speed then !
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Sproty
Astonishingly, I, like the rest of the U.N., don’t have a solution in my back pocket. What I do have is an understanding from history of where you get to in the long run when strong men push and push and are not pushed back against.
Thanks for the lesson on how Syria started. I hadn’t realised that it was complicated.
You know naff all, we Have beenshipping weapons to Isis supporters because Putin has sided with Asad, Well the Syrian Christians have had to throw their cards in with Asad too so that is who we should be supporting,who ever comes out on top there will be a lot of lives lost,all we are doing and have been doing is prolonging the inevitable,it's a mess but Asad is the best card in a very bad hand .
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Oh and by the way the Israelis murdered 16 Palestinians on Good Friday, what is the West doing about them?
Corbyn has a point but even he fails to get acros that an element of the Palestinians are also Christian.
We sit here and don't give a monkeys because we don't realise that!
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So Russia has vetoed a proposed UN investigation into Douma. The OPCW will be able to establish THAT a chemical weapon attack took place but there will be no way of definitively establishing who was responsible.
Because Russia has blocked that avenue.
So now what do those people think, who said we shouldn’t rush to judge Russia and we should let the UN do its job?
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So Russia has vetoed a proposed UN investigation into Douma. The OPCW will be able to establish THAT a chemical weapon attack took place but there will be no way of definitively establishing who was responsible.
Because Russia has blocked that avenue.
So now what do those people think, who said we shouldn’t rush to judge Russia and we should let the UN do its job?
Thats my whole point in the other thread, the UN as it stands is toothless while nations have the power of veto
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Filo
That was inevitable if Syria is responsible because Russia will not allow a UN inspection that ends up pointing the finger at their ally. But the process is still important because it lays out to other countries the case of who they cannot trust.
In the meantime, while Corbyn sounded principled and correct in calling for all parties to support the UN in getting to the bottom of Douma, he is now faced with how the real world of hardball international politics works and it’s nothing like his naively optimistic idea that we should all work together to find the truth.
There’s now a massive question for Corbyn. He said he wanted the UN to establish responsibility. Russia has blocked that. So NOW what does he do. Because if he just shrugs his shoulders, he is effectively condoning the use of poison gas. He can claim as often as he wants that he’s against the use of WMD and I truly believe that he is. But as PM of one of the 5 or 6 strongest nations on earth, he would have a moral duty to do more than just tells us about his conscience. He would need to show what HE would do when WMD were used. So far, he’s failing that test spectacularly.
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No, it because one was captured on live tv by the world media and the other requires proper investigation by the relevant authority who can definitively say what happened (as they should have done in Salisbury).
Note the wording in this press release from the OPCW ' alleged use of chemical weapons'.
THE HAGUE, Netherlands — 9 April 2018 — The Director-General of Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), Ambassador Ahmet Üzümcü, expressed his grave concern in response to the alleged chemical weapons attack on 7 April in Douma, Syrian Arab Republic.
The OPCW Situation Centre has been closely monitoring the incident and made a preliminary analysis of the reports of the alleged use of chemical weapons immediately after they were issued. The Fact Finding Mission (FFM) is in the process of gathering further information from all available sources to establish whether chemical weapons were used. The FFM will report its findings to States Parties to the Chemical Weapons Convention.
https://reliefweb.int/report/syrian-arab-republic/opcw-director-general-allegations-chemical-weapons-use-douma-syria
So do you think that the people in Douma are exploding chemical weapons on themselves . Say they did , then why would you continue you to do it if you haven't managed to get an international response against the Syrian regime or their Russian backers in the past ? Isn't it dangerous to explode chemical weapons on yourself ?
Wilts OF COURSE the regime or Russia have used such diabolical weapons on the civilians AND the armed opposition ffs !
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I am not sure how you work out I am saying the people in Douma have exploded chemical weapons on themselves when I point out that the OPCW wish to go and check/verify if a chemical attack has happened there Hoola? A call which I have heard echoed today by such diverse voices as General Richard Dannant and Peter Hitchens.
Syria and Russia say it hasn't. The opposition groups in Douma say it has. The OPCW will confirm it one way or the other. We have all seen the tv pictures. Have we all seen the tweets from the BBC editor in Syria who says that at least some of the pictures that have come out have been faked? https://twitter.com/Dalatrm
As you well know Billy, Russia and Syria have asked the OPCW to carry out an investigation. Also Russia also put their own UN resolution down that the US, UK and others vetoed because it was independent of them. Russia vetoed the US resolution because they would not be part of it.
If there was a chemical attack who else might have done it? Have a read up on the Jaysh al-Islam (the group in Douma) and their habit of putting civilian prisoners and using them as human shields. Is it a coincidence that the attack happened a week or so after Trump announced he was going to pull US troops out of Syria - just as the attack last year came after he also announced he was going to pull troops out? Or when Russia, Turkey and Iran are discussing peace talks in Syria? Who might not want the US troops out of Syria or a Russia - Iran brokered peace?
None of which really matters. What is important now is whether the west risks escalating a crises in Syria into a full blown conflict between the US and Russia on the basis of no independent evidence? Or looks for an alternative?
What has Corbyn got to say? He's asked for a debate in Parliament. I am extremely doubtful if he will get it as I cant see Trump waiting to see which way he votes before he decides what to do.
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Wilts.
No. If you’re going to discuss this then get your facts right.
Russia vetoed a proposal that the OPCW be given the remit of establishing who was responsible for the chemical weapon attack.
Russia’s proposal was that the Security Council have the final say on apportioning responsibility. Which, obviously, would mean that any of the permanent members (say...Russia for example?) could veto any decision.
https://www.un.org/press/en/2018/sc13288.doc.htm
Meantime, you are following precisely the line that Putin wants his stooges in the West to follow. Obscure the issue by throwing up conspiracy theories that cannot be disproved precisely because Putin has vetoed the one process by which the truth can be established.
EDIT:
Apologies. The link I posted earlier did not make it clear that the Russian proposal was for the SC to have the responsibility to assign blame. This one does.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2018/04/1006991
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Corbyn today:
“Britain should press for an independent UN-led investigation of last weekend's horrific chemical weapons attack so that those responsible can be held to account."
What the f**k? Britain DID press for an independent UN mission to investigate and have the authority to apportion blame.
Russia vetoed it.
Once more, not a word of criticism of Russia.
What is the game here?
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Ok Billy ,what do you want to see happen, tell us why it should happen that way and what it would achieve,Put up or shut up!
Why are you being so aggressive ?
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So Russia has vetoed a proposed UN investigation into Douma. The OPCW will be able to establish THAT a chemical weapon attack took place but there will be no way of definitively establishing who was responsible.
Because Russia has blocked that avenue.
So now what do those people think, who said we shouldn’t rush to judge Russia and we should let the UN do its job?
Thats my whole point in the other thread, the UN as it stands is toothless while nations have the power of veto
Filo , you are absolutely right and perhaps it's time to either call it a day as the U.N. stands now and completely reform it .
It's way past it's " sell by " date.
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Why has the former head of UK armed forces been cut off when he gives SKY an answer about the alleged Chemicals attack in Douma, which clearly wasn't to the liking of Teresa May,Boris Johnson, Donald Trump, Macron and all of the other retards who are trying to start an illegal war on Russia.
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Why is the UK Government systematically destroying all evidence in relation to the alleged Russian nerve gas attack in Salisbury.
I think they should change the name of the Operation to Operation F**k up!
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Have you ll noticed how May and Johnson have wound in their necks in the last few days.hopefully we will soon have a new PM and Foreign secretary in the near future!
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Common sense tells you that Russia will not go to War with the West, thier firepower would be overwelmed by Nato's combined firepower, Russia would be finished it that happened. The problem is we are living in a World where common sense has taken a back seat and a lot of Country's leaders are raving egomaniacs
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If Russia went to war with the West it'd probably be game over for us all.
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I am not sure how you work out I am saying the people in Douma have exploded chemical weapons on themselves when I point out that the OPCW wish to go and check/verify if a chemical attack has happened there Hoola? A call which I have heard echoed today by such diverse voices as General Richard Dannant and Peter Hitchens.
Syria and Russia say it hasn't. The opposition groups in Douma say it has. The OPCW will confirm it one way or the other. We have all seen the tv pictures. Have we all seen the tweets from the BBC editor in Syria who says that at least some of the pictures that have come out have been faked? https://twitter.com/Dalatrm
As you well know Billy, Russia and Syria have asked the OPCW to carry out an investigation. Also Russia also put their own UN resolution down that the US, UK and others vetoed because it was independent of them. Russia vetoed the US resolution because they would not be part of it.
If there was a chemical attack who else might have done it? Have a read up on the Jaysh al-Islam (the group in Douma) and their habit of putting civilian prisoners and using them as human shields. Is it a coincidence that the attack happened a week or so after Trump announced he was going to pull US troops out of Syria - just as the attack last year came after he also announced he was going to pull troops out? Or when Russia, Turkey and Iran are discussing peace talks in Syria? Who might not want the US troops out of Syria or a Russia - Iran brokered peace?
None of which really matters. What is important now is whether the west risks escalating a crises in Syria into a full blown conflict between the US and Russia on the basis of no independent evidence? Or looks for an alternative?
What has Corbyn got to say? He's asked for a debate in Parliament. I am extremely doubtful if he will get it as I cant see Trump waiting to see which way he votes before he decides what to do.
Wilts your assement is absolutely spot on,and the former head of our armed Forces was trying to say something similar when Sky cut him off mid interview
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What is the end game? They're are all a bunch of lying bas**rds. All as sneaky and dirty as each other.
It's all about oil pipelines through Syria.
I don't believe any of em.
There's stuff online about creating false disaster scenes using actors, some children being seen in several different places of destruction.
It makes me sick. Our government is just as bent as Russian government.
That shape shifting lizard bitch May being told what to say by her paymasters, who ever that maybe?
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I've been saying it for years, if there was no oil in the middle east, no one would give a shite about them killing each other
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I am not sure how you work out I am saying the people in Douma have exploded chemical weapons on themselves when I point out that the OPCW wish to go and check/verify if a chemical attack has happened there Hoola? A call which I have heard echoed today by such diverse voices as General Richard Dannant and Peter Hitchens.
Syria and Russia say it hasn't. The opposition groups in Douma say it has. The OPCW will confirm it one way or the other. We have all seen the tv pictures. Have we all seen the tweets from the BBC editor in Syria who says that at least some of the pictures that have come out have been faked? https://twitter.com/Dalatrm
As you well know Billy, Russia and Syria have asked the OPCW to carry out an investigation. Also Russia also put their own UN resolution down that the US, UK and others vetoed because it was independent of them. Russia vetoed the US resolution because they would not be part of it.
If there was a chemical attack who else might have done it? Have a read up on the Jaysh al-Islam (the group in Douma) and their habit of putting civilian prisoners and using them as human shields. Is it a coincidence that the attack happened a week or so after Trump announced he was going to pull US troops out of Syria - just as the attack last year came after he also announced he was going to pull troops out? Or when Russia, Turkey and Iran are discussing peace talks in Syria? Who might not want the US troops out of Syria or a Russia - Iran brokered peace?
None of which really matters. What is important now is whether the west risks escalating a crises in Syria into a full blown conflict between the US and Russia on the basis of no independent evidence? Or looks for an alternative?
What has Corbyn got to say? He's asked for a debate in Parliament. I am extremely doubtful if he will get it as I cant see Trump waiting to see which way he votes before he decides what to do.
What is there to verify the whole region is covered by a Russian air defence system , the bombs were dropped from either planes or helicopters - there is nothing further to find out or is there ? Whatever the OPCW team would be likely to find out would be treated in much the same way as the Russians are treating the Skripal case only apparently WE have organised it now - this is becoming farcical.
We have an exact re- run of the other chemical attacks , the denials of the " little green men " in Crimea and for that matter the shooting down of MH17 over Donetsk.
I think the time for talking has gone on enough . Sorry if I have misunderstood you wilts but I thought you were implying that yet further investigations should take place before we consider what actions to take ?
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If Russia went to war with the West it'd probably be game over for us all.
No probably about it - put it this way , there would be very few if any that would survive it's effects .
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To late now as the uk France and us have bombed sites in Syria
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This happened and hasn't worried them one bit.
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The Mail online ran a story 5 days ago which ties in with what I have heard, Julia Skripals Fiancée Stephan Vikkeev has connections to Russian intelligence including his 61 year old Mother who is ex intelligence , mummy didn't want her son marrying the daughter of someone she considers a monumental traitor and took her own steps to solve the problem, hence the reason why it was such a bodged up job, the Vikeevs sourced some nerve agent through contacts and then did a very unprofessional job of trying to eliminate the Skripals!
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Sproty.
That post of yours was going so well until the first two words. I lost interest at that point.
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The Mail ...lol
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The Mail ...lol
Indeed. The scary part is, I know a number of people who read it and believe everything they read in it.
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Another Russian journalist investigating Putin and associates meets his maker.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43781351
Astonishing how careless these journalists are. If they’re not walking into bullets or mistaking Polonium for Sweetex, they are falling out of windows.
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The BBC...lol
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Sproty.
That post of yours was going so well until the first two words. I lost interest at that point.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3175847/Could-bomb-proof-bags-stop-Lockerbie-Material-contains-explosions-luggage-hold-aircraft-safe.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3175847/Could-bomb-proof-bags-stop-Lockerbie-Material-contains-explosions-luggage-hold-aircraft-safe.html)
Never trusted a word in that rag
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Funny you should say that Wes. That report is shot through with errors.
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f*cking hell some people can hold a grudge
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Nothing wrong with a bit of investigative research is there Rob? I didn't see you getting so upset when Acko was getting his newspaper exploits shared?
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f*cking hell some people can hold a grudge
Who the Russians ?
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On the subject of the impartial reporting of known facts;
https://boingboing.net/2018/04/23/auntie-mccarthy.html
Why would an independent media outlet want to vet prospective recruits in this way?
He/She who controls the terms of the debate by curating information into the public domain is in pole position to manufacture consent.
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Because it has never been truly independent ?
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There has been no new information on the Skripals' coming through for quite a while as the news cycles move on, but for those still interested I hope you picked up this piece of information. Evidence that when the story first broke the government placed a D-notice on the media to withhold any mention of and connection to Sergei Skripal's ongoing contact with his MI6 handler - who himself was involved with the Trump Dossier.
Interesting stuff - if you are interested in that sort of thing.
https://evolvepolitics.com/the-uk-government-issued-a-media-censorship-order-over-skripal-poisoning-links-to-trump-russia-dossier/
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Wilts.
That is a truly fascinating read.
From the apparent fact (from Wikileaks, which of course, has no connection with Russia or Trump...) that the handler was Person A, and the fact that Person A worked at the same company as Person B and the fact that Person B has written a dossier pointing out that Trump is being played by Putin, we jump to...
1) An “inference that there is an escalating climate of anti-Russia hysteria.”
2) A definitive statement that anyone who blamed Russia on Skripal is a lickspittle warmonger and
3) Yet another claim that St Jeremy is right on everything.
Maybe I’m just having a bad day because the logic kind of escapes me here. This is what you write if you decide what your conclusion is going to be then backfill the detail. Without worrying too much about the logical thread because you know it’s what your readers want to hear.
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Not really Billy. What that article does is give you a link to the actual notices that have been published regarding Man X (after he had been named in The Telegraph), thus proving their validity and existence.
You can make up your own mind as to why they were published and what the government doesn't want you to know. I gave my theories on page 1 of this thread.
If you want to follow the government line uncritically on the understanding that they are the government and why would they lie, that's up to you. The admission today that they lied for 15 years about Mr & Mrs Belhaj doesn't surprise me though.
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Wow what a coincidence, the two Russian guys were just Tourists in Salisbury on the weekend a former Russian spy was poisioned, and they didn't even get to see the Cathedral because of too much snow, so flew back to the tropical climate in Moscow the same day 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
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So. All the folk who were convincing themselves that Putin wasn't behind this?
Still convinced?
And how bloody stupid is that line from Corbyn looking, when he stood up in Parliament to say that we should be working with Russia to find the truth of this attack?
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Well given that the most convincing evidence that Russia was behind this has been the strange interview with the two blokes gave then yes - give Russia the evidence and let them try and explain it because they will make themselves look stupid/only incriminate themselves - still seems a good plan to me.
Filo - they said they did visit the cathedral and had photographs of it.
The cctv from the petrol station shows them in the vicinity of Skripal's house at 11.58 on the Sunday morning. It would take about 5 minutes to get to the house from the petrol station, so the earliest they could have sprayed the door was just after noon. Skripal's car is seen going into the town centre at 1.30. The reason we were given they didn't die straight away was that the door had been sprayed overnight and the novichok decayed.
The novichok clearly hadn't decayed as Dawn Sturgess was taken ill 15 minutes after spraying her hand. Yet it didn't effect the Skripal's for 4 hours? If they had it fresh on their hands when they arrived in Salisbury - why didn't it affect the three boys Sergi gave the bread too for feeding the ducks?
Apparently they found traces of novichok in their hotel room in London. It must have taken several days, if not weeks to track these people down. Had the room not been cleaned in the meantime? And what were they doing to get novichok in the room, spraying it on each other for a test? Clearly they had to deliberately spray it somehow it couldn't leak from the bottle. So why didn't it affect them?
On the other cctv images you have seen at least one of them is labelled wrongly. They can't be with their backs to the camera at Summerlock Approach and then facing the camera walking over the bridge on Fisherton Street going to the railway station. They are either walking into town down Fisherton Street or have crossed over the road at Summerlock Approach - strange when the station is just ahead on the other side. (All these images shown them on the town side of Fisherton Street, i.e. they have gone past the railway station from Skirpal's house at some point - doing some sightseeing after an assassination attempt?)
None of this means the Russian's didn't do it but some people like evidence and having questions answered. These blokes were clearly involved but were they on their own? And why did they target a spy they expelled 10 years previously. And what does Yulia Skirpal's fiancee do and why haven't we heard from him? Other people seem to take the government on trust without question on some things but not on others. It's a funny old world.
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Well given that the most convincing evidence that Russia was behind this has been the strange interview with the two blokes gave then yes - give Russia the evidence and let them try and explain it because they will make themselves look stupid/only incriminate themselves - still seems a good plan to me.
Filo - they said they did visit the cathedral and had photographs of it.
The cctv from the petrol station shows them in the vicinity of Skripal's house at 11.58 on the Sunday morning. It would take about 5 minutes to get to the house from the petrol station, so the earliest they could have sprayed the door was just after noon. Skripal's car is seen going into the town centre at 1.30. The reason we were given they didn't die straight away was that the door had been sprayed overnight and the novichok decayed.
The novichok clearly hadn't decayed as Dawn Sturgess was taken ill 15 minutes after spraying her hand. Yet it didn't effect the Skripal's for 4 hours? If they had it fresh on their hands when they arrived in Salisbury - why didn't it affect the three boys Sergi gave the bread too for feeding the ducks?
Apparently they found traces of novichok in their hotel room in London. It must have taken several days, if not weeks to track these people down. Had the room not been cleaned in the meantime? And what were they doing to get novichok in the room, spraying it on each other for a test? Clearly they had to deliberately spray it somehow it couldn't leak from the bottle. So why didn't it affect them?
On the other cctv images you have seen at least one of them is labelled wrongly. They can't be with their backs to the camera at Summerlock Approach and then facing the camera walking over the bridge on Fisherton Street going to the railway station. They are either walking into town down Fisherton Street or have crossed over the road at Summerlock Approach - strange when the station is just ahead on the other side. (All these images shown them on the town side of Fisherton Street, i.e. they have gone past the railway station from Skirpal's house at some point - doing some sightseeing after an assassination attempt?)
None of this means the Russian's didn't do it but some people like evidence and having questions answered. These blokes were clearly involved but were they on their own? And why did they target a spy they expelled 10 years previously. And what does Yulia Skirpal's fiancee do and why haven't we heard from him? Other people seem to take the government on trust without question on some things but not on others. It's a funny old world.
There was no need for Russia to wheel these two out at all, all they have done is come up with a story a three year old could tell, I bet these two guys will disappear never to be seen again very soon
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Wilts.
I'll summarise every one of your posts on this thread.
1) Yes it looks like Russia.
2) But...hey, here's a bizarre conspiracy theory that says it's not Russia.
Consistent. I'll give you that. The conspiracy theories have changed, granted, but the overall approach has been consistent.
I'm waiting for the one that argues that they DIDN'T smear Novichok on the door handle, they smeared it on the garden gnome and that proves that it's all been a Deep State deception.
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Wouldn't that have been a bit of an elf hazard?
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Boom, boom.
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Wouldn't that have been a bit of an elf hazard?
Would it have made him Grumpy?
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Billy has the source of you info ever been gnome to be wrong😂
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Billy has the source of you info ever been gnome to be wrong😂
Now you're just fishing.
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Wilts.
I'll summarise every one of your posts on this thread.
1) Yes it looks like Russia.
2) But...hey, here's a bizarre conspiracy theory that says it's not Russia.
Consistent. I'll give you that. The conspiracy theories have changed, granted, but the overall approach has been consistent.
I'm waiting for the one that argues that they DIDN'T smear Novichok on the door handle, they smeared it on the garden gnome and that proves that it's all been a Deep State deception.
I have never, ever, said it wasn't Russia. What I have constantly said is that I don't believe the government narrative and I would like proof. Now we have some proof - and I still don't believe the government narrative.
Something extra to my previous post.
These blokes make a big play about men not carrying a women's perfume bottle. The perfume bottle that Charlie Rowley found he said was unopened in its cellophane wrapper. So unless you accept that the only professional part of their operation was to disassemble their bottle and reseal it back in the packet without managing to get any on themselves (and presumably they knew what was in the bottle) then carry it into the middle of Salisbury to dump it, is Rowley wrong? Or maybe in that interview they were telling us that we haven't found the bottle they used to smear the door handle?
Which takes us back to the question of why it took over 4 hours for the novichok to work on the Skirpals and 15 minutes on Dawn Sturgess? If we haven't found the 'right' novichok bottle then have we found the 'right' attempted assassins & the place it happened?
Good on you for believing the government without question though rather than us cynics.
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Wilts.
Read my post. I never said that you said Russia didn't do it.
What you HAVE done in pretty much every post is to throw in bizarre conspiracy theories from bizarre conspiracy theorists.
This is a perfect example.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=265500.msg766651#msg766651
So YOU don't say it's not Russia but you link to others who say it isn't.
It's classic obfuscation. You start off by questioning Russia's involvement (and you did - in your very first post on this thread). Then as the evidence mounts, you don't address that. You ignore it and focus on increasingly incidental details.
And you never, ever, not once, criticise Russia.
It's the Seamus Milne approach distilled to perfection.
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Wilts if the original bottle of Novichok is unaccounted for why isn't the town sealed off in lock down and a massive fingertip search taking place.
If the 'Perfume ' was in a sealed bottle which was wrapped in cellophane then placed in a suitcase which was to go in to the hold of an aircraft I don't think they would have had to declare it.
Also if they came to the UK from Russia, the airline baggage check staff might have been complicit
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Wilts , I just can't see where the UK gets any advantage out of all of this given we accept any or all ideas that ' Western ' secret services carried out ? How would the UK get any benefit from these " supposed " actions - I simply can't see the basis of a conspiracy theory now that we have these further facts. Yes initially I wondered if it was a possibility but now confronted with this further evidence of clumsiness on behalf of the Russian state - there can be no doubt that Putin and the Kremlin are behind all this .
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Something gone off in Salisbury today?
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Yes people are naturally very jumpy - and however much you might dislike it people are still asking questions about things we dont add up. If you want to class clarity as a conspiracy theory - then that is silencing accountability and a conspiracy theory in itself.
My own pet conspiracy theory is there were at least three teams. These guys who went to the house, the ones who 'got' the Skirpals on their way back to their car from the restaurant in the alleyway next to the library and a third who were at another location in the town centre and never used their poison. It is that bottle that Rowley found.
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Yes people are naturally very jumpy - and however much you might dislike it people are still asking questions about things we dont add up. If you want to class clarity as a conspiracy theory - then that is silencing accountability and a conspiracy theory in itself.
My own pet conspiracy theory is there were at least three teams. These guys who went to the house, the ones who 'got' the Skirpals on their way back to their car from the restaurant in the alleyway next to the library and a third who were at another location in the town centre and never used their poison. It is that bottle that Rowley found.
Hmm I can see your line of thinking but this does seem like overkill and very very clumsy just for one exchanged spy . Unless of course the real intention was to demonstrate the extent and ease of your reach . If so it failed as did most of the efforts of the Russian state since the forced annexation of the Crimean peninsular .
Doping in sport, involvement and subsequent stalemate in Eastern Ukraine and of course the botched Salisbury assassination attempt.
Brexit and the election of Trump were resounding successes for Putin though.
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Yes people are naturally very jumpy - and however much you might dislike it people are still asking questions about things we dont add up. If you want to class clarity as a conspiracy theory - then that is silencing accountability and a conspiracy theory in itself.
My own pet conspiracy theory is there were at least three teams. These guys who went to the house, the ones who 'got' the Skirpals on their way back to their car from the restaurant in the alleyway next to the library and a third who were at another location in the town centre and never used their poison. It is that bottle that Rowley found.
Think you played too much Cluedo as a nipper, wilts.
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Yes people are naturally very jumpy - and however much you might dislike it people are still asking questions about things we dont add up. If you want to class clarity as a conspiracy theory - then that is silencing accountability and a conspiracy theory in itself.
My own pet conspiracy theory is there were at least three teams. These guys who went to the house, the ones who 'got' the Skirpals on their way back to their car from the restaurant in the alleyway next to the library and a third who were at another location in the town centre and never used their poison. It is that bottle that Rowley found.
Think you played too much Cluedo as a nipper, wilts.
Pmsl
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Well who'd have thought it?
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/09/26/skripal-suspect-boshirov-identified-gru-colonel-anatoliy-chepiga/
One of the Salisbury Cathedral tourists is actually a Colonel in the GRU.
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Well who'd have thought it?
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/09/26/skripal-suspect-boshirov-identified-gru-colonel-anatoliy-chepiga/
One of the Salisbury Cathedral tourists is actually a Colonel in the GRU.
Apparently awarded Russia's highest honour, awarded by Putin himself, fancy Putin only thinking he was just a civilian when it actually turns out he's in the Russian Secret Service 😀😀😀😀
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And hey! Even Corbyn's said today that it looks very much like it was Russia.
Hasn't CRITICISED Russia for it, but baby steps, eh?
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Well now we have quite a good case building up against the Putin regime what do we do next.
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You're the expert, what would you suggest?
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Well now we have quite a good case building up against the Putin regime what do we do next.
Carry on building the case, gathering evidence, identify the other cathederal loving tourist and present it to the UN, isolate the Russian terrorist state
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Well now we have quite a good case building up against the Putin regime what do we do next.
Stricter sanctions and clamping down on Russian money laundering in the City would be a start.
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Well now we have quite a good case building up against the Putin regime what do we do next.
Stricter sanctions and clamping down on Russian money laundering in the City would be a start.
MM that should be the response as it should have been for the last 20+ years that the money has been laundered here under the watchful eye of HMRC. Expect more investigative work as Filo suggested - little else for now and a rush on to get us out of the EU and its watchful eye as quickly as possible.
No- one wants them to fully follow the money do they ?
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Well now we have quite a good case building up against the Putin regime what do we do next.
Obviously, we should leave the EU and laugh when it collapses. That'll put us in a good position to stand up to him.
Course, if the folk who were bankrolling the Leave campaign had been funded by Putin, that would end up being a decent investment for him, no?
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The same Eu that looked away indifferently due to the fact that the big players are totally reliant on Russian gas supplies.
The same Eu that has took its shoulder off of the defence cart to such an extent that it couldn't knock its way out of a brown paper bag without The Massive support from Britain and the US.
Pulling our Armoured Division out of Germany was a Politcal move to make the Germans start spending what they should be on defence.
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Well now we have quite a good case building up against the Putin regime what do we do next.
Carry on building the case, gathering evidence, identify the other cathederal loving tourist and present it to the UN, isolate the Russian terrorist state
Spot on!