The use of Nerve Agent in the UK

[Sprotyrover]

I am not sure how you work out I am saying the people in Douma have exploded chemical weapons on themselves when I point out that the OPCW wish to go and check/verify if a chemical attack has happened there Hoola? A call which I have heard echoed today by such diverse voices as General Richard Dannant and Peter Hitchens.

Syria and Russia say it hasn't. The opposition groups in Douma say it has. The OPCW will confirm it one way or the other. We have all seen the tv pictures. Have we all seen the tweets from the BBC editor in Syria who says that at least some of the pictures that have come out have been faked? https://twitter.com/Dalatrm

As you well know Billy, Russia and Syria have asked the OPCW to carry out an investigation. Also Russia also put their own UN resolution down that the US, UK and others vetoed because it was independent of them. Russia vetoed the US resolution because they would not be part of it. 

If there was a chemical attack who else might have done it? Have a read up on the Jaysh al-Islam (the group in Douma) and their habit of putting civilian prisoners and using them as human shields. Is it a coincidence that the attack happened a week or so after Trump announced he was going to pull US troops out of Syria - just as the attack last year came after he also announced he was going to pull troops out? Or when Russia, Turkey and Iran are discussing peace talks in Syria? Who might not want the US troops out of Syria or a Russia - Iran brokered peace?

None of which really matters. What is important now is whether the west risks escalating a crises in Syria into a full blown conflict between the US and Russia on the basis of no independent evidence? Or looks for an alternative?

What has Corbyn got to say? He's asked for a debate in Parliament. I am extremely doubtful if he will get it as I cant see Trump waiting to see which way he votes before he decides what to do.

Wilts your assement is absolutely spot on,and the former head of our armed Forces was trying to say something similar when Sky cut him off mid interview

[Nudga]

What is the end game? They're are all a bunch of lying bas**rds. All as sneaky and dirty as each other.
It's all about oil pipelines through Syria.
I don't believe any of em.
There's stuff online about creating false disaster scenes using actors, some children being seen in several different places of destruction.
It makes me sick. Our government is just as bent as Russian government.
That shape shifting lizard bitch May being told what to say by her paymasters, who ever that maybe?

[Filo]

I've been saying it for years, if there was no oil in the middle east, no one would give a shite about them killing each other

[hoolahoop]

I am not sure how you work out I am saying the people in Douma have exploded chemical weapons on themselves when I point out that the OPCW wish to go and check/verify if a chemical attack has happened there Hoola? A call which I have heard echoed today by such diverse voices as General Richard Dannant and Peter Hitchens.

Syria and Russia say it hasn't. The opposition groups in Douma say it has. The OPCW will confirm it one way or the other. We have all seen the tv pictures. Have we all seen the tweets from the BBC editor in Syria who says that at least some of the pictures that have come out have been faked? https://twitter.com/Dalatrm

As you well know Billy, Russia and Syria have asked the OPCW to carry out an investigation. Also Russia also put their own UN resolution down that the US, UK and others vetoed because it was independent of them. Russia vetoed the US resolution because they would not be part of it. 

If there was a chemical attack who else might have done it? Have a read up on the Jaysh al-Islam (the group in Douma) and their habit of putting civilian prisoners and using them as human shields. Is it a coincidence that the attack happened a week or so after Trump announced he was going to pull US troops out of Syria - just as the attack last year came after he also announced he was going to pull troops out? Or when Russia, Turkey and Iran are discussing peace talks in Syria? Who might not want the US troops out of Syria or a Russia - Iran brokered peace?

None of which really matters. What is important now is whether the west risks escalating a crises in Syria into a full blown conflict between the US and Russia on the basis of no independent evidence? Or looks for an alternative?

What has Corbyn got to say? He's asked for a debate in Parliament. I am extremely doubtful if he will get it as I cant see Trump waiting to see which way he votes before he decides what to do.

What is there to verify the whole region is covered by a Russian air defence system , the bombs were dropped from either planes or helicopters - there is nothing further to find out or is there ? Whatever the OPCW  team would be likely to find out would be treated in much the same way as the Russians are treating the Skripal case only apparently WE have organised it now - this is becoming farcical.

We have an exact re- run of the other chemical attacks , the denials of the " little green men " in Crimea and for that matter the shooting down of MH17 over Donetsk.
I think the time for talking has gone on enough . Sorry if I have misunderstood you wilts but I thought you were implying that yet further investigations should take place before we consider what actions to take ?

[hoolahoop]

If Russia went to war with the West it'd probably be game over for us all.

No probably about it - put it this way , there would be very few if any that would survive it's effects .

[bpoolrover]

To late now as the uk France and us have bombed sites in Syria

[hoolahoop]

This happened and hasn't worried them one bit.

[Sprotyrover]

The Mail online ran a story 5 days ago which ties in with what I have heard, Julia Skripals Fiancée Stephan Vikkeev has connections to Russian intelligence including his 61 year old Mother who is ex intelligence , mummy didn't want her son marrying the daughter of someone she considers a monumental traitor and took her own steps to solve the problem, hence the reason why it was such a bodged up job, the Vikeevs sourced some nerve agent through contacts and then did a very unprofessional job of trying to eliminate the Skripals!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty.

That post of yours was going so well until the first two words. I lost interest at that point.

[hoolahoop]

The Mail ...lol

[Not Now Kato]

The Mail ...lol

Indeed.  The scary part is, I know a number of people who read it and believe everything they read in it. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Another Russian journalist investigating Putin and associates meets his maker.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43781351

Astonishing how careless these journalists are. If they’re not walking into bullets or mistaking Polonium for Sweetex, they are falling out of windows.

[Bentley Bullet]

The BBC...lol

[wesisback]

Sproty.

That post of yours was going so well until the first two words. I lost interest at that point.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3175847/Could-bomb-proof-bags-stop-Lockerbie-Material-contains-explosions-luggage-hold-aircraft-safe.html

Never trusted a word in that rag

[BillyStubbsTears]

Funny you should say that Wes. That report is shot through with errors.

[bobjimwilly]

f*cking hell some people can hold a grudge

[wesisback]

Nothing wrong with a bit of investigative research is there Rob? I didn't see you getting so upset when Acko was getting his newspaper exploits shared?

[hoolahoop]

f*cking hell some people can hold a grudge

Who the Russians ?

[albie]

On the subject of the impartial reporting of known facts;
https://boingboing.net/2018/04/23/auntie-mccarthy.html

Why would an independent media outlet want to vet prospective recruits in this way?

He/She who controls the terms of the debate by curating information into the public domain is in pole position to manufacture consent.

[hoolahoop]

Because it has never been truly independent ?

[wilts rover]

There has been no new information on the Skripals' coming through for quite a while as the news cycles move on, but for those still interested I hope you picked up this piece of information. Evidence that when the story first broke the government placed a D-notice on the media to withhold any mention of and connection to Sergei Skripal's ongoing contact with his MI6 handler - who himself was involved with the Trump Dossier.

Interesting stuff - if you are interested in that sort of thing.

https://evolvepolitics.com/the-uk-government-issued-a-media-censorship-order-over-skripal-poisoning-links-to-trump-russia-dossier/

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

That is a truly fascinating read.

From the apparent fact (from Wikileaks, which of course, has no connection with Russia or Trump...) that the handler was Person A, and the fact that Person A worked at the same company as Person B and the fact that Person B has written a dossier pointing out that Trump is being played by Putin, we jump to...

1) An “inference that there is an escalating climate of anti-Russia hysteria.”

2) A definitive statement that anyone who blamed Russia on Skripal is a lickspittle warmonger and

3) Yet another claim that St Jeremy is right on everything.


Maybe I’m just having a bad day because the logic kind of escapes me here. This is what you write if you decide what your conclusion is going to be then backfill the detail. Without worrying too much about the logical thread because you know it’s what your readers want to hear.

[wilts rover]

Not really Billy. What that article does is give you a link to the actual notices that have been published regarding Man X (after he had been named in The Telegraph), thus proving their validity and existence.

You can make up your own mind as to why they were published and what the government doesn't want you to know. I gave my theories on page 1 of this thread.

If you want to follow the government line uncritically on the understanding that they are the government and why would they lie, that's up to you. The admission today that they lied for 15 years about Mr & Mrs Belhaj doesn't surprise me though.

[Filo]

Wow what a coincidence, the two Russian guys were just Tourists in Salisbury on the weekend a former Russian spy was poisioned, and they didn't even get to see the Cathedral because of too much snow, so flew back to the tropical climate in Moscow the same day 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[BillyStubbsTears]

So. All the folk who were convincing themselves that Putin wasn't behind this?

Still convinced?

And how bloody stupid is that line from Corbyn looking, when he stood up in Parliament to say that we should be working with Russia to find the truth of this attack?

[wilts rover]

Well given that the most convincing evidence that Russia was behind this has been the strange interview with the two blokes gave then yes - give Russia the evidence and let them try and explain it because they will make themselves look stupid/only incriminate themselves - still seems a good plan to me.

Filo - they said they did visit the cathedral and had photographs of it.

The cctv from the petrol station shows them in the vicinity of Skripal's house at 11.58 on the Sunday morning. It would take about 5 minutes to get to the house from the petrol station, so the earliest they could have sprayed the door was just after noon. Skripal's car is seen going into the town centre at 1.30. The reason we were given they didn't die straight away was that the door had been sprayed overnight and the novichok decayed.

The novichok clearly hadn't decayed as Dawn Sturgess was taken ill 15 minutes after spraying her hand. Yet it didn't effect the Skripal's for 4 hours? If they had it fresh on their hands when they arrived in Salisbury - why didn't it affect the three boys Sergi gave the bread too for feeding the ducks?

Apparently they found traces of novichok in their hotel room in London. It must have taken several days, if not weeks to track these people down. Had the room not been cleaned in the meantime? And what were they doing to get novichok in the room, spraying it on each other for a test? Clearly they had to deliberately spray it somehow it couldn't leak from the bottle. So why didn't it affect them?

On the other cctv images you have seen at least one of them is labelled wrongly. They can't be with their backs to the camera at Summerlock Approach and then facing the camera walking over the bridge on Fisherton Street going to the railway station. They are either walking into town down Fisherton Street or have crossed over the road at Summerlock Approach - strange when the station is just ahead on the other side. (All these images shown them on the town side of Fisherton Street, i.e. they have gone past the railway station from Skirpal's house at some point - doing some sightseeing after an assassination attempt?)

None of this means the Russian's didn't do it but some people like evidence and having questions answered. These blokes were clearly involved but were they on their own? And why did they target a spy they expelled 10 years previously. And what does Yulia Skirpal's fiancee do and why haven't we heard from him? Other people seem to take the government on trust without question on some things but not on others. It's a funny old world.

[Filo]

Well given that the most convincing evidence that Russia was behind this has been the strange interview with the two blokes gave then yes - give Russia the evidence and let them try and explain it because they will make themselves look stupid/only incriminate themselves - still seems a good plan to me.

Filo - they said they did visit the cathedral and had photographs of it.

The cctv from the petrol station shows them in the vicinity of Skripal's house at 11.58 on the Sunday morning. It would take about 5 minutes to get to the house from the petrol station, so the earliest they could have sprayed the door was just after noon. Skripal's car is seen going into the town centre at 1.30. The reason we were given they didn't die straight away was that the door had been sprayed overnight and the novichok decayed.

The novichok clearly hadn't decayed as Dawn Sturgess was taken ill 15 minutes after spraying her hand. Yet it didn't effect the Skripal's for 4 hours? If they had it fresh on their hands when they arrived in Salisbury - why didn't it affect the three boys Sergi gave the bread too for feeding the ducks?

Apparently they found traces of novichok in their hotel room in London. It must have taken several days, if not weeks to track these people down. Had the room not been cleaned in the meantime? And what were they doing to get novichok in the room, spraying it on each other for a test? Clearly they had to deliberately spray it somehow it couldn't leak from the bottle. So why didn't it affect them?

On the other cctv images you have seen at least one of them is labelled wrongly. They can't be with their backs to the camera at Summerlock Approach and then facing the camera walking over the bridge on Fisherton Street going to the railway station. They are either walking into town down Fisherton Street or have crossed over the road at Summerlock Approach - strange when the station is just ahead on the other side. (All these images shown them on the town side of Fisherton Street, i.e. they have gone past the railway station from Skirpal's house at some point - doing some sightseeing after an assassination attempt?)

None of this means the Russian's didn't do it but some people like evidence and having questions answered. These blokes were clearly involved but were they on their own? And why did they target a spy they expelled 10 years previously. And what does Yulia Skirpal's fiancee do and why haven't we heard from him? Other people seem to take the government on trust without question on some things but not on others. It's a funny old world.

There was no need for Russia to wheel these two out at all, all they have done is come up with a story a three year old could tell, I bet these two guys will disappear never to be seen again very soon

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

I'll summarise every one of your posts on this thread.

1) Yes it looks like Russia.
2) But...hey, here's a bizarre conspiracy theory that says it's not Russia.

Consistent. I'll give you that. The conspiracy theories have changed, granted, but the overall approach has been consistent.

I'm waiting for the one that argues that they DIDN'T smear Novichok on the door handle, they smeared it on the garden gnome and that proves that it's all been a Deep State deception.

[Bentley Bullet]

Wouldn't that have been a bit of an elf hazard?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Boom, boom.