Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: SydneyRover on June 18, 2021, 01:45:00 pm
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''The Chesham and Amersham byelection result points to a big problem for Boris Johnson: how to keep traditional Tory supporters in the south happy while leading a government that is focused on its new voters in the so-called red wall''
''Theresa May has said that the government’s Planning Bill will put the “wrong homes in the wrong places” and countryside campaigners said that the reforms would mean “open season for developers” in rural areas.
Boris Johnson has set himself on a collision course with Tory MPs after unveiling proposals in his Queen’s Speech to deliver the biggest shake-up to the planning system in more than 70 years.
Under the terms of a new bill, land would b.............. the times paywall
I did say a while back that tory voters wouldn't be keen on any levelling up as they didn't want their 'position' in society usurped.
Is this the reason for the massive swing away from the blues?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/18/chesham-amersham-tory-mps-boris-johnson-conservatives
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All about local issues Syd, planning permissions for large housing estates and HS2 compulsory evictions, nice area not wanting scroats coming in and the disruption.
Also tactical voting showing Labour votes moving over to the Liberals ( could be for ever as the demise of the Labour vote collapses and the party continue their slide to irrelevance) and as history shows Liberals give their vote to the Tories in Labour seats, not fair really, and has resulted in a disastrous Labour percentage vote in this by election.
God knows what stabber thinks, better take the knife off him before he tops himself, although he might be cheered on by some he thinks his mates in the fast collapsing Labour party.
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All about local issues Syd, planning permissions for large housing estates and HS2 compulsory evictions, nice area not wanting scroats coming in and the disruption.
Also tactical voting showing Labour votes moving over to the Liberals ( could be for ever as the demise of the Labour vote collapses and the party continue their slide to irrelevance) and as history shows Liberals give their vote to the Tories in Labour seats, not fair really, and has resulted in a disastrous Labour percentage vote in this by election.
God knows what stabber thinks, better take the knife off him before he tops himself, although he might be cheered on by some he thinks his mates in the fast collapsing Labour party.
I would reckon Starmer will be thinking, there are two sides to a culture war and not everyone thinks that 'getting Brexit done' worked out very well. As this by-election shows.
He will also most likely be thinking, wonder how long it will take for the new Tory votors in the north to realise they are going to shafted now the Tories have to re-focus on the people who actually fund them.
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So what do you reckon is in the minds of those in similar seats, Selby?
I'm thinking that they won't be too far away from Dominic Grieve here;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-dominic-grieve-election-b1868470.html
As Labour lose the former "red wall " seats, the Tories start to lose the Home Counties...interesting times.
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Labour will hope strengthening the lib Dems will let them in by cutting the Tory vote. They just have to hope it's not too strong to outdo themselves. It was a terrible result for both Tories and labour.
The country is different in different places, there's a reason nobody ever wins 500+ seats which could easily happen in the system we have in this country but never does.
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All about local issues Syd, planning permissions for large housing estates and HS2 compulsory evictions, nice area not wanting scroats coming in and the disruption.
Also tactical voting showing Labour votes moving over to the Liberals ( could be for ever as the demise of the Labour vote collapses and the party continue their slide to irrelevance) and as history shows Liberals give their vote to the Tories in Labour seats, not fair really, and has resulted in a disastrous Labour percentage vote in this by election.
God knows what stabber thinks, better take the knife off him before he tops himself, although he might be cheered on by some he thinks his mates in the fast collapsing Labour party.
Nar , let Starmer be the one who finally takes Labour in to oblivion .
He's earned the right as well as his cult followers .
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The Liberals do what they are good at, fought a not in my back yard campaign which they are good at in by elections when the cost to individuals of their main line policies means nothing and are not an issue.
In a general election they then put policy in front of the electorate, usually put forward by condescending straight out of university young ladies with a face like the back end of a cows backside talking down to everybody and will cost most people who own their own property a small fortune.
Having said that they are likely to take over as the main opposition instead of Labour, who are disappearing quickly as an effective political party, in fact they have close to more supporters with Syd in Australia than in Chesham and Amersham.
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Thats right Selby, keep on insulting the voters and taking them for granted - you see where that gets you and Johnson in the next election.
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I will be happy to be around for the next election Wilts.
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Thats right Selby, keep on insulting the voters and taking them for granted - you see where that gets you and Johnson in the next election.
Wow , the irony eh !!
Just how sanctimonious does the Metropolitan Labour voter have to be by comparison ?
Of course Johnson is a pryck .
Trouble is Starmer and his cult are even bigger prycks .
The electorate tell em so .
Be sanctimonious about that .
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Thats right Selby, keep on insulting the voters and taking them for granted - you see where that gets you and Johnson in the next election.
Wow , the irony eh !!
Just how sanctimonious does the Metropolitan Labour voter have to be by comparison ?
Of course Johnson is a pryck .
Trouble is Starmer and his cult are even bigger prycks .
The electorate tell em so .
Be sanctimonious about that .
Yeah, too right tyke, starmer & cult are responsible for 10 of thousands of unnecessary deaths plus death by Austerity and f**king over the economy, there's just no end to the devastation him and his type have caused, he's liar too what about all the lies day in day out, the evasion of responsibility for absolutely everything, Windrush, you name it starmers fingerprints are all over it ......... and why? because corbyn couldn't win a general election,
oh right!
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Thats right Selby, keep on insulting the voters and taking them for granted - you see where that gets you and Johnson in the next election.
Wilts, I've always taken you to be on the left of the Labour Party; if so, surely you can't be confident that Starmer is the man to lead you to victory in 2024. Surely someone like Andy Burnham would be better.
Labour's result in Chesham was even more disastrous than the Tories', following the debacle in Hartlepool. If they lose in Batley, I reckon it could be all over for Starmer.
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Thats right Selby, keep on insulting the voters and taking them for granted - you see where that gets you and Johnson in the next election.
Wilts, I've always taken you to be on the left of the Labour Party; if so, surely you can't be confident that Starmer is the man to lead you to victory in 2024. Surely someone like Andy Burnham would be better.
Labour's result in Chesham was even more disastrous than the Tories', following the debacle in Hartlepool. If they lose in Batley, I reckon it could be all over for Starmer.
Urban myths aye, Con down by 19.9% Lab down by 11.2% in a seat only ever held by tories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Chesham_and_Amersham_by-election
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Thats right Selby, keep on insulting the voters and taking them for granted - you see where that gets you and Johnson in the next election.
Wilts, I've always taken you to be on the left of the Labour Party; if so, surely you can't be confident that Starmer is the man to lead you to victory in 2024. Surely someone like Andy Burnham would be better.
Labour's result in Chesham was even more disastrous than the Tories', following the debacle in Hartlepool. If they lose in Batley, I reckon it could be all over for Starmer.
Ehh, how do you deduce anything about my support (or not) for Starmer in a reply to an arrogant Tory? I have said all along it is up to Starmer to show he is a leader and set out a vision and policy - can you say what he stands for, I can't? That's the labour right for you. I agree with you about Batley - be very difficult for him to stay if he loose there.
Burnham isn't an MP and I can't imagne anyone stepping aside to let him become one.
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I will be happy to be around for the next election Wilts.
I think we all will Selby. End of next year I reckon.
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SS.
In the Blair Govt, Burnham was about as far to the right as you can get.
I think you're confusing having a northern accent with being left wing.
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Thats right Selby, keep on insulting the voters and taking them for granted - you see where that gets you and Johnson in the next election.
Wow , the irony eh !!
Just how sanctimonious does the Metropolitan Labour voter have to be by comparison ?
Of course Johnson is a pryck .
Trouble is Starmer and his cult are even bigger prycks .
The electorate tell em so .
Be sanctimonious about that .
Yeah, too right tyke, starmer & cult are responsible for 10 of thousands of unnecessary deaths plus death by Austerity and f**king over the economy, there's just no end to the devastation him and his type have caused, he's liar too what about all the lies day in day out, the evasion of responsibility for absolutely everything, Windrush, you name it starmers fingerprints are all over it ......... and why? because corbyn couldn't win a general election,
oh right!
Yes they are so pure aren't they ?
Starting illegal wars in the middle east contributing to the deaths of 5m , which sets off a campaign of terrorism contributing to events like the Manchester Arena .
They were told in no uncertain terms by people such as George Galloway , Corbyn and many on the left the consequences of invading Iraq .
As for the economy , remind me on whose watch the financial crash occurred , deregulated capitalism , not only deregulated but a casino culture encouraged .
The country has never recovered from it and not one banker convicted in a court of law .
A Labour government my ass .
The centre of the Labour Party , blood on your hands and a failed state .
None of which would have happened under a left leaning Labour government .
The Tories may well do the heavy lifting for neoliberalism , a centre Labour government ain't too far behind .
The facts tell you so .
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But but but…..the Tories…
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Tyke,
The financial crash was global and the failure began in the US property market.
It is fair to say that a casino culture was operating in the city but it is worth remembering the tories were constantly calling for even more deregulation at the time.
And when the shite did hit the fan, Gordon Brown was really the world leader who was able to provide the plan on how to prevent "this sucker from going down.
The Labour government will always be blamed by the tories for the financial crash but it doesn't tell the whole story.
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RD,
Yes, the 2008 crash originated in US property.
The key point is that nothing was done in the years before to prevent it happening, despite it being in gestation for some time.
Broon was Chancellor under Bliar, and took a light touch approach to financial regulation. There was a clear need to separate out investment banking from retail banking sectors, yet nothing was done.
As a result, when the inevitable crash came, Broon had to bail out the bankers from the public purse.
But here's the thing....he did so without conditions, so the whole scam could happen again!
No-one was jailed for the fraud leading to the crash, and the public interest was not protected by taking an equity stake in the institutions requiring a bail-out.
It was a shameful failure to act in the long term interest of financial stability in the banking sector.
Belief in the sanctity of markets is a pervasive mistake from the political elite.
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Albie,
I agree with all that and not much has changed since. There is still a pervasive belief in the sanctity of the market and the opportunity to impose stability was missed. Its only a matter of time before there is a similar failure.
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Albie,
I agree with all that and not much has changed since. There is still a pervasive belief in the sanctity of the market and the opportunity to impose stability was missed. Its only a matter of time before there is a similar failure.
And not one of three Prime Ministers we've had since Brown has done anything to rectify the situation.
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The Left's logic in a nutshell.
Blair and Brown didn't facilitate the overthrow of Capitalism and the creation of the dictatorship of the proletariat: therefore they are no different to the Tories.
Makes these discussions a lot simpler if you just keep that as an aide-memoire.
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No BST, that is not the issue at all.
Transformational moments occur only rarely, and the financial crisis was a golden chance to re-align the banking sector to deliver public benefits.
Broon (and his Darling Balls) were locked into the idea that they could reform the Davos consensus from within...they were wrong. The banksters took him for a fool.
The banking sector needs major structural reform, and Broon ducked it when the chance came.
It also enabled the Tories to sell their false prospectus around austerity, in the wake of the no conditions bail-out.
There you go!
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The Left's logic in a nutshell.
Blair and Brown didn't facilitate the overthrow of Capitalism and the creation of the dictatorship of the proletariat: therefore they are no different to the Tories.
Makes these discussions a lot simpler if you just keep that as an aide-memoire.
Sounds like similar logic to the Jehovas Witness.
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Albie.
Brown's first priority was preventing a Great Depression and preventing wholesale economic collapse. He led the world in doing that while the Right was screaming that we should be cutting, not spending.
With another term in power, there would have been a chance to make the long term restructuring of the financial sector. But folk like you voted in a way that out Cameron and Clegg in power.
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But thank you for underlining my point Albie. Your post emphasises what I said in flashing lights.
"Brown didn't do the radical left thing that I wanted him to do, therefore he's no better than the Tories."
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BST,
As reply 23 above.
The fact that you think reforming the banking sector is radical is telling.
It is not radical, it is a necessary step for all the other measures that you may wish to follow.
Broon was a well intentioned man, and did some good things, but tended to establishment thinking on economic matters, and his political instincts were off focus.
He was involved in the disaster of PFI, which was clearly a very bad deal for the public finances.
He introduced Tax credits, which are very welcome for those who need the help, but the real issue of poverty pay persists. How many bad employers use the system to back up their poor salary levels and inadequate terms and conditions.
Recently Broon has been cheerleading for Unionism in Scotland. This is a political mistake for Labour, who need to revive in Scotland to have any improved prospects in a GE.
You can be well intentioned, motivated, and wrong.
The bigger problem for Labour is not facing up to these mis-steps, because if you do not see the mistake, you will continue to repeat it....over to Keir Starmer!
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The Left's logic in a nutshell.
Blair and Brown didn't facilitate the overthrow of Capitalism and the creation of the dictatorship of the proletariat: therefore they are no different to the Tories.
Makes these discussions a lot simpler if you just keep that as an aide-memoire.
I never suggested that capitalism be overthrown Billy .
Despite the efforts of Brown and Darling which you seem to want to blow a trumpet at , the fact remains they should never have put themselves in the position they did .
A Labour government should always look to protect society from the downsides of free markets and a lack of regulation and they failed spectacularly .
What you are trumpeting is the fact they put a fire out rather than focusing on the elephant in the room that they had more than a hand in ignoring the smoke bellowing out .
As I say the Tories do the heavy lifting with regard to neoliberalism , the centre of the Labour Party are enthusiastic followers .
The Tories will buy their bombs from any third world sweat shop you can name .
The centre of the Labour Party will buy them from an ethically sourced supplier .
They still kill people when they explode .
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In the meantime, the latest constituency poll puts the Tories 6% ahead in Batley.
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With the Workers Party of GB on 6%...
Draw your own conclusions from that one.
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With the Workers Party of GB on 6%...
Draw your own conclusions from that one.
That 6% going to Galloway is currently the difference between Labour and the Tories .
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Precisely Tyke
Another so-called left winger working his nads off to get a Tory elected.
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The Left's logic in a nutshell.
Blair and Brown didn't facilitate the overthrow of Capitalism and the creation of the dictatorship of the proletariat: therefore they are no different to the Tories.
Makes these discussions a lot simpler if you just keep that as an aide-memoire.
This is a bit inconvenient for you Billy but it's a fact none the less .
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/john-bercow-labour-attack-johnson-b1869118.html
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Precisely Tyke
Another so-called left winger working his nads off to get a Tory elected.
I don't think you realise Billy the extent to which the Labour Party is hated by people such as Mr Galloway , as much as the Tories if not possibly more .
If Labour can't win in Batley then perhaps they should have a look at themselves and less of the finger pointing towards the traditional left .
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The Left's logic in a nutshell.
Blair and Brown didn't facilitate the overthrow of Capitalism and the creation of the dictatorship of the proletariat: therefore they are no different to the Tories.
Makes these discussions a lot simpler if you just keep that as an aide-memoire.
This is a bit inconvenient for you Billy but it's a fact none the less .
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/john-bercow-labour-attack-johnson-b1869118.html
Wey Hey. Nice one, Tyke. The Tory Party's own version of Chuka Umunna, and just as slimy. Him and Keir will really get on, both being arch-remainers.
Maybe Keir will put him up in a Northern Brexit voting seat, as would be par for the current course.
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Tyke.
Oh aye. I fully understand how much the centre Left is hated by the likes of Galloway. It hated by them so much that he's prepared to be funded by a Russian fascist to constantly fight against it.
You are being played in a huge game Tyke and the really sad thing is, you honestly and naively think he's on your side. When in reality, you are just the collateral damage.
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Tyke.
Oh aye. I fully understand how much the centre Left is hated by the likes of Galloway. It hated by them so much that he's prepared to be funded by a Russian fascist to constantly fight against it.
You are being played in a huge game Tyke and the really sad thing is, you honestly and naively think he's on your side. When in reality, you are just the collateral damage.
Billy , Galloway doesn't play me let's make this perfectly clear .
His bunch of comrades are way too left even for the likes of this old collier .
The left within the Labour Party should always be the ones who remind the centre what they are supposed to be doing and why the party even exists and not necessarily calling all the shots .
Corbyn at least tried to work with the centre for all the good it did him mind .
The truth is the section of the party you yourself pin your colours to have absolutely no intention of having the left at the table .
Your too focused with solving poverty in Estonia rather than South Yorkshire and seemingly have zero interest in real issues .
You've done alright , university and a professional source of income , nowt wrong with that mind , I don't do the politics of envy btw .
Where I have a problem is with the metropolitan Labour supporter is the fact you ain't a clue about the real issues which affect millions of lives in former industrial heartlands .
Nowt I've read on here or your fellow minnions have convinced me otherwise .
You lot are the problem and you will never be the solution .
The party is where it is because of you .
I've tried the compromise with you lot for more years than I should but you lot can't see outside your bubble .
The heart n soul of this party is and will always be the likes of me and you hitch your wagon to that .
The other way around doesn't work , the proof is where we are at today .
Labour getting annihilated in it's own back yard .
Those are the facts .
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Tyke.
Oh aye. I fully understand how much the centre Left is hated by the likes of Galloway. It hated by them so much that he's prepared to be funded by a Russian fascist to constantly fight against it.
You are being played in a huge game Tyke and the really sad thing is, you honestly and naively think he's on your side. When in reality, you are just the collateral damage.
Billy , Galloway doesn't play me let's make this perfectly clear .
His bunch of comrades are way too left even for the likes of this old collier .
The left within the Labour Party should always be the ones who remind the centre what they are supposed to be doing and why the party even exists and not necessarily calling all the shots .
Corbyn at least tried to work with the centre for all the good it did him mind .
The truth is the section of the party you yourself pin your colours to have absolutely no intention of having the left at the table .
Your too focused with solving poverty in Estonia rather than South Yorkshire and seemingly have zero interest in real issues .
You've done alright , university and a professional source of income , nowt wrong with that mind , I don't do the politics of envy btw .
Where I have a problem is with the metropolitan Labour supporter is the fact you ain't a clue about the real issues which affect millions of lives in former industrial heartlands .
Nowt I've read on here or your fellow minnions have convinced me otherwise .
You lot are the problem and you will never be the solution .
The party is where it is because of you .
I've tried the compromise with you lot for more years than I should but you lot can't see outside your bubble .
The heart n soul of this party is and will always be the likes of me and you hitch your wagon to that .
The other way around doesn't work , the proof is where we are at today .
Labour getting annihilated in it's own back yard .
Those are the facts .
Your naivety is stunning if you think that a party can run and stay in one political position for the whole of its life without changing to the will of those within and without.
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Tyke.
Oh aye. I fully understand how much the centre Left is hated by the likes of Galloway. It hated by them so much that he's prepared to be funded by a Russian fascist to constantly fight against it.
You are being played in a huge game Tyke and the really sad thing is, you honestly and naively think he's on your side. When in reality, you are just the collateral damage.
Billy , Galloway doesn't play me let's make this perfectly clear .
His bunch of comrades are way too left even for the likes of this old collier .
The left within the Labour Party should always be the ones who remind the centre what they are supposed to be doing and why the party even exists and not necessarily calling all the shots .
Corbyn at least tried to work with the centre for all the good it did him mind .
The truth is the section of the party you yourself pin your colours to have absolutely no intention of having the left at the table .
Your too focused with solving poverty in Estonia rather than South Yorkshire and seemingly have zero interest in real issues .
You've done alright , university and a professional source of income , nowt wrong with that mind , I don't do the politics of envy btw .
Where I have a problem is with the metropolitan Labour supporter is the fact you ain't a clue about the real issues which affect millions of lives in former industrial heartlands .
Nowt I've read on here or your fellow minnions have convinced me otherwise .
You lot are the problem and you will never be the solution .
The party is where it is because of you .
I've tried the compromise with you lot for more years than I should but you lot can't see outside your bubble .
The heart n soul of this party is and will always be the likes of me and you hitch your wagon to that .
The other way around doesn't work , the proof is where we are at today .
Labour getting annihilated in it's own back yard .
Those are the facts .
Your naivety is stunning if you think that a party can run and stay in one political position for the whole of its life without changing to the will of those within and without.
You mean like putting up a pro EU candidate in Hartlepool Sydney , that kind of naivety .
Once you admit your catastrophic failings the more the Party remains relevant and can at least have an opportunity to rebuild .
The way it's playing out is the Labour Party is heading for oblivion .
The electorate are the judge and jury , not you or Billy .
But but the Tories ..... it's all you have .
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Nothing worse than a tory or a miffed labour voter it seems, tory problems and mistakes are suffered by just about everyone except the top 3-5% of the population and the only reason they are in power is because of those that see their 'own' party as a bigger problem. Those that keep the tories in power, the enablers can thank themselves for the suffering of the 95-97%
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Nothing worse than a tory or a miffed labour voter it seems, tory problems and mistakes are suffered by just about everyone except the top 3-5% of the population and the only reason they are in power is because of those that see their 'own' party as a bigger problem. Those that keep the tories in power, the enablers can thank themselves for the suffering of the 95-97%
Pardon the context but what the feck do you know sat on Bondi beach sunning yourself .
There's an old saying where I live .
" non bowlers off the green "
Ditch the Guardian fella and live the the life .
I'd say champagne socialist wouldn't be the worst call .
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Nothing worse than a tory or a miffed labour voter it seems, tory problems and mistakes are suffered by just about everyone except the top 3-5% of the population and the only reason they are in power is because of those that see their 'own' party as a bigger problem. Those that keep the tories in power, the enablers can thank themselves for the suffering of the 95-97%
Pardon the context but what the feck do you know sat on Bondi beach sunning yourself .
There's an old saying where I live .
" non bowlers off the green "
Ditch the Guardian fella and live the the life .
I'd say champagne socialist wouldn't be the worst call .
I see your conversion to tory is now complete using xenophobic language as your argument peters out, and not for the first time either, aye tyke
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Nothing worse than a tory or a miffed labour voter it seems, tory problems and mistakes are suffered by just about everyone except the top 3-5% of the population and the only reason they are in power is because of those that see their 'own' party as a bigger problem. Those that keep the tories in power, the enablers can thank themselves for the suffering of the 95-97%
Pardon the context but what the feck do you know sat on Bondi beach sunning yourself .
There's an old saying where I live .
" non bowlers off the green "
Ditch the Guardian fella and live the the life .
I'd say champagne socialist wouldn't be the worst call .
I see your conversion to tory is now complete using xenophobic language as your argument peters out, and not for the first time either, aye tyke
Billy's tried the Tory slant with me but that didn't work too well either .
I've never voted Tory in my life and I'll go to my grave not ever doing so based on my own personal history .
Doesn't mean I'm ALL LABOUR either .
Your becoming a cult Sydney , it's to tell the truth a shocking look .
We are superior to the Tories in mind and soul , really , you forget the blood on your hands and the failed state you created in 2008 after 13 years in office .
None of which you seem comfortable addressing .
You carry on fella selling your soul for power you won't ever get , you lot had your chance to change this country and you did nowt with it .
You won't be getting another opportunity .
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We are superior to the tories, we just don't want to vote them out is all, you are making your own bed playing the man not the ball, don't blame others for your own failures please.
If your actions contribute to a tory government then who is to blame?
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"I'm not a Tory, I just talk and act like one."
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Not "talk and act like one".
"Am so convinced that the Left must be MY Left, I will stubbornly empower a centre-left country to keep on electing far-right Governments."
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The Labour Party has just about done the impossible, they attracted less votes in a byelection than the constituency has Labour Party members in the same constituency.
As for the likes of Bercow, I wouldn't P**S on him to save him if he was burning in the street.
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If folk are too thick to understand that massive tactical voting took place in that by-election, there's not much hope for them.
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If folk are too thick to understand that massive tactical voting took place in that by-election, there's not much hope for them.
Bold of you to assume selby is doing anything other than being on the wind up.
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https://youtu.be/VcuoEVcsLcs
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https://youtu.be/VcuoEVcsLcs
BB, so many of those phrases and comments have been used on this forum over the past few years.
Most recently here:
If folk are too thick to understand that massive tactical voting took place in that by-election, there's not much hope for them.
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I'm not sure what your point is Hound.
It's bleeding obvious that there was massive tactical voting in the by-election. What exactly would YOU think of the intellect of someone who commented on the Labour vote there without considering that context?
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I'm not sure what your point is Hound.
It's bleeding obvious that there was massive tactical voting in the by-election. What exactly would YOU think of the intellect of someone who commented on the Labour vote there without considering that context?
Of course you understand my point BST.
To use your terminology, it is bleeding obvious.
Unless of course you didn’t read the link that BB posted.