Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Bentley Bullet on December 10, 2021, 12:11:13 pm
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.....When Bojo is more likely to be ousted by a Christmas party than the Labour Party.
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Wait for it ……………………………….
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It will be like London busses…….
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Wait for it ……………………………….
They're not taking the bait. They're sat over the keyboard grinding their teeth but not typing. :lol:
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The sad thing is the opposition are not good enough to get elected and will only fare well because the conservatives are utter lying shite.... and even then they might not unless they start to identify with the electorate....
I support the nihilist party, and crave utter destruction ! Lol
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The sad thing is the opposition are not good enough to get elected and will only fare well because the conservatives are utter lying shite.... and even then they might not unless they start to identify with the electorate....
I support the nihilist party, and crave utter destruction ! Lol
All true. Labour need to forget all this woke, identity politics crap and start thinking about the British 'working' class for a change. Then and only then they might just have a chance.
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I didn't know the date of the next General Election had been announced.
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'He's doing his best'
'He only lied in the past'
8 point Labour Opinion Poll lead
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1469330224282284043
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Oldest truism in politics.
Opposition's don't win elections. Governments lose them.
Cameron wouldn't have had a chance in 2010 without the GFC.
Labour would have struggled in 97 without Black Wednesday and the Tory sleaze under Major.
Thatcher wouldn't have won in 79 without the Winter of Discontent.
Opposition's have to wait for Governments to implode. Then take advantage by looking competent and honest by comparison.
Whether this is the moment that the Tories disintegrate, we'll have to wait and see. But they are in the sort of trouble that it's not easy to get out of. Once people decide that youre not on their side anymore, you have an uphill battle to fight.
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Of course the Tories could change the leader, that might restore trust.
The problem they have, is they don't have an obvious candidate. Apparently they still think Boris would be more popular than Sunak, even now.
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Sunak has a tough year coming up. Real wages are going to be hammered in 2022. See how popular he is this time next year.
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And yeah, they are fishing in a shallow pool among the others.
Gove?
Raab?
Patel?
Truss?
Good luck with any of them.
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Like I said, London busses.
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Sunak has a tough year coming up. Real wages are going to be hammered in 2022. See how popular he is this time next year.
2 years ago there was no covid etc. A lot will change before the next election.
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Sunak has a tough year coming up. Real wages are going to be hammered in 2022. See how popular he is this time next year.
2 years ago there was no covid etc. A lot will change before the next election.
We do know there are huge energy price rises baked in, that can't be put off beyond April.
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Sunak has a tough year coming up. Real wages are going to be hammered in 2022. See how popular he is this time next year.
2 years ago there was no covid etc. A lot will change before the next election.
Absolutely. But to back up what RD says, we know there are certain things pretty well baked in.
NI rises
Fuel cost rises
Inflation very likely to be high.
There's not a huge amount to sing and dance about over the next 12 months. Always the chance of a war I guess - that has worked for a highly unpopular Govt before...
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Even Blair knew black Wednesday and sleaze wasn't enough to topple John Major's government so expecting a Tory government to topple on that narrative is pretty flawed in my opinion .
What ever my own personal feelings about New Labour are concerned the fact is they had an identity and a brand .
The play was building a modern Britain and taking our place at the top table of the most powerful country's in the the world .
Blair had charisma and energy , Brown had the brains .
They also had some heavyweights in the cabinet , Cook , Prescott , Darling , Field , Beckett and Blunkett .
They were on the news more than the Tory government largely thanks to Campbell .
What's clearly passing them by today is the fact they haven't the talent these days , the leader hasn't the charisma , they don't have a vision , a brand or any policies .
There's also the small matter that the New Labour brand is particularly toxic to those whose vote was in the bag for generations .
Other than that everything's fine .
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The problem is the Labour vote is split.
Whilst there are those who see the New Labour brand as tainted, there are also plenty who will not vote for radical socialism espoused by the Corbyn wing.
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The problem is the Labour vote is split.
Whilst there are those who see the New Labour brand as tainted, there are also plenty who will not vote for radical socialism espoused by the Corbyn wing.
It was always split RD and we co-existed for the good of the party .
Those days of tolerance are gone , mainly because the centre and right of the party couldn't take the fact the members voted to elect a leader who wanted radical change in this country .
They conspired at every opportunity to topple him hoping he'd lose a GE .
I myself was willing to give Starmer a go .
Until he broke every leadership election pledge he made and set about purging the left .
There comes a time when you walk away and leave them to it and look for alternatives .
Not particularly another party but social campaigns through trade unions etc etc .
I could take the left not running the show but to be kicked out altogether is entirely another matter .
Some seriously dangerous people in the centre and right of the Labour Party .
Nearly as many as the government .
Presently neither party is fit for government in my opinion .
The bar has never been lower .
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At some point the left will have to learn that a moderate Labour government is preferable to a Tory government.
Those in the centre, who might vote Tory, who might vote Liberal, who might vote green, who might vote Labour...
They ain't going to be going for radical options.
New Labour and Tony Blair made bad decisions. They did. But that doesn't mean a centrist Labour government will always be the same.
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Thatcher probably was dethroned by "just" the Poll Tax and imho the worst PM [by a country mile - not my words but those of Bercow the ex-Speaker] is still lording it whatever he does - as he goes from lie to lie , stunt to stunt and is still revered.
If they [his hands face space / get B****t done] muppets get brave and do to him what he did to May I am guessing they will be cooked because none of the others in Government would be cut as much slack as Pinocciho has been. They are just not up to the job either.
Dreadful PM - dreadful Cabinet - and to fit in with Hounds bus "theme" it started with a Bus
Come one come all slag me if you want but I can say with 100 per cent certainty I have more integrity , more honesty and more honesty than that barrel of Lard runnin our Country
I wouldnt trust the cnut to run Super6 for 1 Round
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At some point the left will have to learn that a moderate Labour government is preferable to a Tory government.
Those in the centre, who might vote Tory, who might vote Liberal, who might vote green, who might vote Labour...
They ain't going to be going for radical options.
New Labour and Tony Blair made bad decisions. They did. But that doesn't mean a centrist Labour government will always be the same.
It's ok to say they won't be going for radical options but the country needs radical options .
You could just about stomach it in the 90's under Blair but the country is massively different to what it was then .
We didn't have the amount of foodbanks we have today , young people could still save for a deposit on a house , drug dealing and anti social behaviour wasn't as rife .
The NHS wasn't great but it was way better than today although I'll acknowledge Blair made it very good .
To be not radical just stinks of power just for the sake of it .
May as well not bother in my opinion .
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Only UK and Belarus do not have PR in GEs
We need it to cut extremism from wherever it comes. Green Party with 1 single solitary MP from 2019 would have had 12 using PR BUT under PR they would attract more votes as people realised for the first time that their vote was finally as meaningful as anyone elses
Bring it ON
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The centre of the Party to this day can't fathom how Corbyn became leader of the Labour Party .
This is the whole crux of the matter .
Corbyn became leader because New Labour were not only out of road but fell way short of what they could and should have achieved with 13 years of government behind them .
Far too many people felt they were abandoned and had been taken for granted .
These are serious issues that can't be simply brushed under the carpet .
To this day the centre don't get it , they don't get it because the majority of them have never lived the lives the people whose vote they seek do .
Not everyone granted but the vast majority .
Whilst I don't expect in this day and age the Labour Party to consist of ex Amazon or Call Centre workers who live in rented accommodation I expect at least some modicum of understanding .
I don't see it what's so ever , I see people from middle class and graduate backgrounds telling me what I should think .
Only one way that's going to change and it isn't from the electorate .
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Even Blair knew black Wednesday and sleaze wasn't enough to topple John Major's government so expecting a Tory government to topple on that narrative is pretty flawed in my opinion .
What ever my own personal feelings about New Labour are concerned the fact is they had an identity and a brand .
The play was building a modern Britain and taking our place at the top table of the most powerful country's in the the world .
Blair had charisma and energy , Brown had the brains .
They also had some heavyweights in the cabinet , Cook , Prescott , Darling , Field , Beckett and Blunkett .
They were on the news more than the Tory government largely thanks to Campbell .
What's clearly passing them by today is the fact they haven't the talent these days , the leader hasn't the charisma , they don't have a vision , a brand or any policies .
There's also the small matter that the New Labour brand is particularly toxic to those whose vote was in the bag for generations .
Other than that everything's fine .
May jammed packed full of charisma beats corbyn, the king of charisma.
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Corbyn became leader because a couple of hundred thousand people took associate membership for three quid and got a vote in the 2015 leadership election. Those were people who only spoke to people who thought Corbyn was the 2nd Coming. And had little idea what the rest of the country thought of him.
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Meanwhile, the Blair Govt that Tyke decries removed more kids from poverty than any Govt in history. It was able to do that because it won elections.
You go and man the barricades Tyke. Take it to the streets. You won't make a scratch on the surface of the problems you rightly identify, while ever a right wing Govt is in charge.
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Tyke hasn't voted labour since Harold bloody Wilson.
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Only UK and Belarus do not have PR in GEs
We need it to cut extremism from wherever it comes. Green Party with 1 single solitary MP from 2019 would have had 12 using PR BUT under PR they would attract more votes as people realised for the first time that their vote was finally as meaningful as anyone elses
Bring it ON
Unfortunately PR actually enhances extermism Wolfie. UK had double the SNP vote in and the BNP had nearly twice as many as the Green Party in 2010. Neither of them had an MP whilst the SNP had 6 and the Greens 1.
I agree PR is a fairer, more representative system. But beware what may happen under it.
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Tyke hasn't voted labour since Harold bloody Wilson.
It takes all sorts Sydney , my gran was a Tory voter all her life and a royalist .
This despite a Labour government building her one of the finest council houses I've ever seen .
The NHS and a welfare programme .
My grandad worked in the steel industry and was a solid trade union man and socialist .
The penny dropped with my Gran when Thatcher came on the scene and the miners strike .
She flipped to the Liberals :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I've grown up with this shyte Sydney .
My old man got arrested at Wapping in the 80's and read the Morning Star .
I got arrested at the Poll Tax demo in 1990 but wasn't convicted although I probably should have done .
I fought the bloody Tories in the strike , lost everything and I'd have starved to death if I'd had to before give in to that witch .
Trying to be educated by your average Guardian reader isn't a great look Sydney in all honesty .
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Meanwhile, the Blair Govt that Tyke decries removed more kids from poverty than any Govt in history. It was able to do that because it won elections.
You go and man the barricades Tyke. Take it to the streets. You won't make a scratch on the surface of the problems you rightly identify, while ever a right wing Govt is in charge.
Aye that's right Billy I ain't going to argue with that he did .
The flaw was it was mainly to put millions on benefit dependency either with low paid work or no work at all .
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Radical options are only going to be acceptable in desperate times. Like in the aftermath of a global war.
These maybe increasingly difficult times but they are not yet desperate times.
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Tyke hasn't voted labour since Harold bloody Wilson.
It takes all sorts Sydney , my gran was a Tory voter all her life and a royalist .
This despite a Labour government building her one of the finest council houses I've ever seen .
The NHS and a welfare programme .
My grandad worked in the steel industry and was a solid trade union man and socialist .
The penny dropped with my Gran when Thatcher came on the scene and the miners strike .
She flipped to the Liberals :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I've grown up with this shyte Sydney .
My old man got arrested at Wapping in the 80's and read the Morning Star .
I got arrested at the Poll Tax demo in 1990 but wasn't convicted although I probably should have done .
I fought the bloody Tories in the strike , lost everything and I'd have starved to death if I'd had to before give in to that witch .
Trying to be educated by your average Guardian reader isn't a great look Sydney in all honesty .
But from your own story as told on here, you haven't done a thing about anything for over 20 years, is that because you did your bit?
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Corbyn became leader because a couple of hundred thousand people took associate membership for three quid and got a vote in the 2015 leadership election. Those were people who only spoke to people who thought Corbyn was the 2nd Coming. And had little idea what the rest of the country thought of him.
God forbid folk without a real voice should be have the enthusiasm to join a party and campaign for change .
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Tyke hasn't voted labour since Harold bloody Wilson.
It takes all sorts Sydney , my gran was a Tory voter all her life and a royalist .
This despite a Labour government building her one of the finest council houses I've ever seen .
The NHS and a welfare programme .
My grandad worked in the steel industry and was a solid trade union man and socialist .
The penny dropped with my Gran when Thatcher came on the scene and the miners strike .
She flipped to the Liberals :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I've grown up with this shyte Sydney .
My old man got arrested at Wapping in the 80's and read the Morning Star .
I got arrested at the Poll Tax demo in 1990 but wasn't convicted although I probably should have done .
I fought the bloody Tories in the strike , lost everything and I'd have starved to death if I'd had to before give in to that witch .
Trying to be educated by your average Guardian reader isn't a great look Sydney in all honesty .
But from your own story as told on here, you haven't done a thing about anything for over 20 years, is that because you did your bit?
I'm still doing my bit now unless my posts on here completely pass you by .
If I didn't do anything we'd have nothing to say to one another .
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Corbyn became leader because a couple of hundred thousand people took associate membership for three quid and got a vote in the 2015 leadership election. Those were people who only spoke to people who thought Corbyn was the 2nd Coming. And had little idea what the rest of the country thought of him.
God forbid folk without a real voice should be have the enthusiasm to join a party and campaign for change .
Maybe the Party rules should be amended so that a democratic vote can’t take place.
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Radical options are only going to be acceptable in desperate times. Like in the aftermath of a global war.
These maybe increasingly difficult times but they are not yet desperate times.
Presumably relying on a foodbank to feed yourself isn't a desperate situation then .
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Tyke hasn't voted labour since Harold bloody Wilson.
It takes all sorts Sydney , my gran was a Tory voter all her life and a royalist .
This despite a Labour government building her one of the finest council houses I've ever seen .
The NHS and a welfare programme .
My grandad worked in the steel industry and was a solid trade union man and socialist .
The penny dropped with my Gran when Thatcher came on the scene and the miners strike .
She flipped to the Liberals :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I've grown up with this shyte Sydney .
My old man got arrested at Wapping in the 80's and read the Morning Star .
I got arrested at the Poll Tax demo in 1990 but wasn't convicted although I probably should have done .
I fought the bloody Tories in the strike , lost everything and I'd have starved to death if I'd had to before give in to that witch .
Trying to be educated by your average Guardian reader isn't a great look Sydney in all honesty .
But from your own story as told on here, you haven't done a thing about anything for over 20 years, is that because you did your bit?
I'm still doing my bit now unless my posts on here completely pass you by .
If I didn't do anything we'd have nothing to say to one another .
So when you said your 'work' was mainly with the union and not much in politics what did that mean? you don't even vote for or support the main opposition to this wretched government.
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Corbyn became leader because a couple of hundred thousand people took associate membership for three quid and got a vote in the 2015 leadership election. Those were people who only spoke to people who thought Corbyn was the 2nd Coming. And had little idea what the rest of the country thought of him.
God forbid folk without a real voice should be have the enthusiasm to join a party and campaign for change .
Maybe the Party rules should be amended so that a democratic vote can’t take place.
Or have a second referendum in the hope you'll get the result you want Hound .
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Meanwhile, the Blair Govt that Tyke decries removed more kids from poverty than any Govt in history. It was able to do that because it won elections.
You go and man the barricades Tyke. Take it to the streets. You won't make a scratch on the surface of the problems you rightly identify, while ever a right wing Govt is in charge.
Hold on a minute, didn't you say you left the Labour Party because of Blair?
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Corbyn became leader because a couple of hundred thousand people took associate membership for three quid and got a vote in the 2015 leadership election. Those were people who only spoke to people who thought Corbyn was the 2nd Coming. And had little idea what the rest of the country thought of him.
God forbid folk without a real voice should be have the enthusiasm to join a party and campaign for change .
Maybe the Party rules should be amended so that a democratic vote can’t take place.
Or have a second referendum in the hope you'll get the result you want Hound .
Yep, that would be something that I can imagine would be deemed acceptable to the losers.
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Tyke hasn't voted labour since Harold bloody Wilson.
It takes all sorts Sydney , my gran was a Tory voter all her life and a royalist .
This despite a Labour government building her one of the finest council houses I've ever seen .
The NHS and a welfare programme .
My grandad worked in the steel industry and was a solid trade union man and socialist .
The penny dropped with my Gran when Thatcher came on the scene and the miners strike .
She flipped to the Liberals :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I've grown up with this shyte Sydney .
My old man got arrested at Wapping in the 80's and read the Morning Star .
I got arrested at the Poll Tax demo in 1990 but wasn't convicted although I probably should have done .
I fought the bloody Tories in the strike , lost everything and I'd have starved to death if I'd had to before give in to that witch .
Trying to be educated by your average Guardian reader isn't a great look Sydney in all honesty .
But from your own story as told on here, you haven't done a thing about anything for over 20 years, is that because you did your bit?
I'm still doing my bit now unless my posts on here completely pass you by .
If I didn't do anything we'd have nothing to say to one another .
So when you said your 'work' was mainly with the union and not much in politics what did that mean? you don't even vote for or support the main opposition to this wretched government.
But you aren't the main opposition to this government .
Not to me you aren't .
That's my entire point .
How could you really be the opposition when you have actually nothing to say on vision and policy .
What kind of country you want and how you are going to achieve it ?
Starmer is about 30% credible and that's in the Guardian reading the comments section which I do regularly .
I rarely read the actual articles because they are all the same , Tories this , Tories that .
I know , I've known since I was a kid what the Tories are .
The question isn't what the Tories are the question is what are Labour going to do ?
Not be the Tories isn't good enough and never was .
Even Blair knew that .
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You don't ever seem to have a logical point Tyke, that's the problem, you don't do anything, you don't have a party that can gain government and you spend your time berating the only party that could possibly get rid of this government. You'll be blaming Starmer for Corbyn's resignation next.
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At some point the left will have to learn that a moderate Labour government is preferable to a Tory government.
Those in the centre, who might vote Tory, who might vote Liberal, who might vote green, who might vote Labour...
They ain't going to be going for radical options.
New Labour and Tony Blair made bad decisions. They did. But that doesn't mean a centrist Labour government will always be the same.
Exactly this. How does labour get someone like me to vote for them? It's not through higher taxes or squeezes on those who have been relatively successful for a start.
The thing that voters will decide on is the policies. Many will stomach a decietful idiot as prime minister if it makes them more well off or matches their views on policy.
Labour need to be more to the centre and grown up which kier Starmer in my view so far is delivering. The question is if he can keep the more extreme (than him) voices at bay.
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At some point the left will have to learn that a moderate Labour government is preferable to a Tory government.
Those in the centre, who might vote Tory, who might vote Liberal, who might vote green, who might vote Labour...
They ain't going to be going for radical options.
New Labour and Tony Blair made bad decisions. They did. But that doesn't mean a centrist Labour government will always be the same.
Exactly this. How does labour get someone like me to vote for them? It's not through higher taxes or squeezes on those who have been relatively successful for a start.
The thing that voters will decide on is the policies. Many will stomach a decietful idiot as prime minister if it makes them more well off or matches their views on policy.
Labour need to be more to the centre and grown up which kier Starmer in my view so far is delivering. The question is if he can keep the more extreme (than him) voices at bay.
That's a problem pud, you want to keep your stash but have free aged care, you can't have both, you can't get blood from a stone, how can those on zero hours contracts and low wages pay more tax?
But getting back to the main thrust, it has always been so, that you cannot win government without the centre.
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At some point the left will have to learn that a moderate Labour government is preferable to a Tory government.
Those in the centre, who might vote Tory, who might vote Liberal, who might vote green, who might vote Labour...
They ain't going to be going for radical options.
New Labour and Tony Blair made bad decisions. They did. But that doesn't mean a centrist Labour government will always be the same.
Exactly this. How does labour get someone like me to vote for them? It's not through higher taxes or squeezes on those who have been relatively successful for a start.
The thing that voters will decide on is the policies. Many will stomach a decietful idiot as prime minister if it makes them more well off or matches their views on policy.
Labour need to be more to the centre and grown up which kier Starmer in my view so far is delivering. The question is if he can keep the more extreme (than him) voices at bay.
That's a problem pud, you want to keep your stash but have free aged care, you can't have both, you can't get blood from a stone, how can those on zero hours contracts and low wages pay more tax?
But getting back to the main thrust, it has always been so, that you cannot win government without the centre.
Stash? I don't have a stash. I think you seriously misunderstand the position many even on pretty good salaries in this country find themselves in, yet you guys on the left want more and more in taxes etc on those around my earning area.
If you really want to see that election win, the brackets you want to incur higher taxes etc upon are far higher than you think.
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At some point the left will have to learn that a moderate Labour government is preferable to a Tory government.
Those in the centre, who might vote Tory, who might vote Liberal, who might vote green, who might vote Labour...
They ain't going to be going for radical options.
New Labour and Tony Blair made bad decisions. They did. But that doesn't mean a centrist Labour government will always be the same.
Exactly this. How does labour get someone like me to vote for them? It's not through higher taxes or squeezes on those who have been relatively successful for a start.
The thing that voters will decide on is the policies. Many will stomach a decietful idiot as prime minister if it makes them more well off or matches their views on policy.
Labour need to be more to the centre and grown up which kier Starmer in my view so far is delivering. The question is if he can keep the more extreme (than him) voices at bay.
That's a problem pud, you want to keep your stash but have free aged care, you can't have both, you can't get blood from a stone, how can those on zero hours contracts and low wages pay more tax?
But getting back to the main thrust, it has always been so, that you cannot win government without the centre.
Stash? I don't have a stash. I think you seriously misunderstand the position many even on pretty good salaries in this country find themselves in, yet you guys on the left want more and more in taxes etc on those around my earning area.
If you really want to see that election win, the brackets you want to incur higher taxes etc upon are far higher than you think.
I don't at all pud, please answer the questions I put to you, how do you get free aged care without putting up taxes and where, if those on low pay can't pay more, do you get those extra taxes from?
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You don't ever seem to have a logical point Tyke, that's the problem, you don't do anything, you don't have a party that can gain government and you spend your time berating the only party that could possibly get rid of this government. You'll be blaming Starmer for Corbyn's resignation next.
But what's your logical point Sydney ?
If you think this country is going to elect a man with no charisma and a party with no policies or identity then good luck with that .
This country whether you like it or not is a conservative country , there's no more a revealing post than Yorkshire Puddings that nails that narrative .
You've had 13 years of not being the Tories and you lost two elections on the back of it .
The left had a go and whilst falling just short in 2017 were walloped in 2019 .
My point is which you desperately fail to see is that Labour need to come up with something else .
Something that YP can vote for and something I can hold my nose and vote for .
The reality is at this moment in time absolutely nobody within Labour has that kind of talent to deliver on and all you have is to winge at the Tories .
You can't even make a case for the energy companies failing , absolutely no position what so ever .
You signed up to Johnson's brexit deal .
You will no doubt sign up to plan B and vote with the government because you can't come up with a Plan C .
Why should anybody be even remotely motivated to vote Labour in a conservative country ?
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At some point the left will have to learn that a moderate Labour government is preferable to a Tory government.
Those in the centre, who might vote Tory, who might vote Liberal, who might vote green, who might vote Labour...
They ain't going to be going for radical options.
New Labour and Tony Blair made bad decisions. They did. But that doesn't mean a centrist Labour government will always be the same.
Exactly this. How does labour get someone like me to vote for them? It's not through higher taxes or squeezes on those who have been relatively successful for a start.
The thing that voters will decide on is the policies. Many will stomach a decietful idiot as prime minister if it makes them more well off or matches their views on policy.
Labour need to be more to the centre and grown up which kier Starmer in my view so far is delivering. The question is if he can keep the more extreme (than him) voices at bay.
That's a problem pud, you want to keep your stash but have free aged care, you can't have both, you can't get blood from a stone, how can those on zero hours contracts and low wages pay more tax?
But getting back to the main thrust, it has always been so, that you cannot win government without the centre.
Stash? I don't have a stash. I think you seriously misunderstand the position many even on pretty good salaries in this country find themselves in, yet you guys on the left want more and more in taxes etc on those around my earning area.
If you really want to see that election win, the brackets you want to incur higher taxes etc upon are far higher than you think.
I don't at all pud, please answer the questions I put to you, how do you get free aged care without putting up taxes and where, if those on low pay can't pay more, do you get those extra taxes from?
I'd incrementally adjust so that pensions were liable to national insurance for a start bringing it in over time. I'd adjust dividends so that they were liable to a small % tax charge tapered and increasing proportionately. I'd levy larger businesses with a small % charge per employee dependent on salary bracket, starting at 1% and tapering up to 5% dependent on the income bracket (essentially higher employer national insurance).
But then I'd drastically rewrite the whole tax system anyway as I believe a lot of it is fundamentally flawed.
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You don't ever seem to have a logical point Tyke, that's the problem, you don't do anything, you don't have a party that can gain government and you spend your time berating the only party that could possibly get rid of this government. You'll be blaming Starmer for Corbyn's resignation next.
But what's your logical point Sydney ?
If you think this country is going to elect a man with no charisma and a party with no policies or identity then good luck with that .
This country whether you like it or not is a conservative country , there's no more a revealing post than Yorkshire Puddings that nails that narrative .
You've had 13 years of not being the Tories and you lost two elections on the back of it .
The left had a go and whilst falling just short in 2017 were walloped in 2019 .
My point is which you desperately fail to see is that Labour need to come up with something else .
Something that YP can vote for and something I can hold my nose and vote for .
The reality is at this moment in time absolutely nobody within Labour has that kind of talent to deliver on and all you have is to winge at the Tories .
You can't even make a case for the energy companies failing , absolutely no position what so ever .
You signed up to Johnson's brexit deal .
You will no doubt sign up to plan B and vote with the government because you can't come up with a Plan C .
Why should anybody be even remotely motivated to vote Labour in a conservative country ?
I backed corbyn in despite all his dithering and his failures, because he was from the left and as far as politics in the uk are at this moment in time far left, but he's gone, his career in political management is dead, finished. Starmer is the leader, the new king and I support him. so unless you can (and I've asked you several times before without success) name a replacement leader and lay out your plan as to how to win government from the left, take a huge dose of salts and get rid of it because you don't make any sense.
Try and answer the question without the histrionics and without doing several laps of the forum please.
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At some point the left will have to learn that a moderate Labour government is preferable to a Tory government.
Those in the centre, who might vote Tory, who might vote Liberal, who might vote green, who might vote Labour...
They ain't going to be going for radical options.
New Labour and Tony Blair made bad decisions. They did. But that doesn't mean a centrist Labour government will always be the same.
Exactly this. How does labour get someone like me to vote for them? It's not through higher taxes or squeezes on those who have been relatively successful for a start.
The thing that voters will decide on is the policies. Many will stomach a decietful idiot as prime minister if it makes them more well off or matches their views on policy.
Labour need to be more to the centre and grown up which kier Starmer in my view so far is delivering. The question is if he can keep the more extreme (than him) voices at bay.
That's a problem pud, you want to keep your stash but have free aged care, you can't have both, you can't get blood from a stone, how can those on zero hours contracts and low wages pay more tax?
But getting back to the main thrust, it has always been so, that you cannot win government without the centre.
Stash? I don't have a stash. I think you seriously misunderstand the position many even on pretty good salaries in this country find themselves in, yet you guys on the left want more and more in taxes etc on those around my earning area.
If you really want to see that election win, the brackets you want to incur higher taxes etc upon are far higher than you think.
I don't at all pud, please answer the questions I put to you, how do you get free aged care without putting up taxes and where, if those on low pay can't pay more, do you get those extra taxes from?
Your looking at this the wrong way Sydney , apparently if you are successful and there's nowt wrong with that mind you exempt yourself from the rest of society .
The more the individual success the less the rest of society matters .
The thing is society wouldn't work without the less skilled , somebody has to do the other jobs .
There is no exempt card .
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At some point the left will have to learn that a moderate Labour government is preferable to a Tory government.
Those in the centre, who might vote Tory, who might vote Liberal, who might vote green, who might vote Labour...
They ain't going to be going for radical options.
New Labour and Tony Blair made bad decisions. They did. But that doesn't mean a centrist Labour government will always be the same.
Exactly this. How does labour get someone like me to vote for them? It's not through higher taxes or squeezes on those who have been relatively successful for a start.
The thing that voters will decide on is the policies. Many will stomach a decietful idiot as prime minister if it makes them more well off or matches their views on policy.
Labour need to be more to the centre and grown up which kier Starmer in my view so far is delivering. The question is if he can keep the more extreme (than him) voices at bay.
That's a problem pud, you want to keep your stash but have free aged care, you can't have both, you can't get blood from a stone, how can those on zero hours contracts and low wages pay more tax?
But getting back to the main thrust, it has always been so, that you cannot win government without the centre.
Stash? I don't have a stash. I think you seriously misunderstand the position many even on pretty good salaries in this country find themselves in, yet you guys on the left want more and more in taxes etc on those around my earning area.
If you really want to see that election win, the brackets you want to incur higher taxes etc upon are far higher than you think.
I don't at all pud, please answer the questions I put to you, how do you get free aged care without putting up taxes and where, if those on low pay can't pay more, do you get those extra taxes from?
I'd incrementally adjust so that pensions were liable to national insurance for a start bringing it in over time. I'd adjust dividends so that they were liable to a small % tax charge tapered and increasing proportionately. I'd levy larger businesses with a small % charge per employee dependent on salary bracket, starting at 1% and tapering up to 5% dependent on the income bracket (essentially higher employer national insurance).
But then I'd drastically rewrite the whole tax system anyway as I believe a lot of it is fundamentally flawed.
And is any of this in the tory manifesto pud?
And just a reminder ..................
''Rishi Sunak offers spending now – and signals tax cuts later''
will tories as a party ever vote to pay more tax to improve society?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/27/rishi-sunak-spending-tax-cuts-budget
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You don't ever seem to have a logical point Tyke, that's the problem, you don't do anything, you don't have a party that can gain government and you spend your time berating the only party that could possibly get rid of this government. You'll be blaming Starmer for Corbyn's resignation next.
But what's your logical point Sydney ?
If you think this country is going to elect a man with no charisma and a party with no policies or identity then good luck with that .
This country whether you like it or not is a conservative country , there's no more a revealing post than Yorkshire Puddings that nails that narrative .
You've had 13 years of not being the Tories and you lost two elections on the back of it .
The left had a go and whilst falling just short in 2017 were walloped in 2019 .
My point is which you desperately fail to see is that Labour need to come up with something else .
Something that YP can vote for and something I can hold my nose and vote for .
The reality is at this moment in time absolutely nobody within Labour has that kind of talent to deliver on and all you have is to winge at the Tories .
You can't even make a case for the energy companies failing , absolutely no position what so ever .
You signed up to Johnson's brexit deal .
You will no doubt sign up to plan B and vote with the government because you can't come up with a Plan C .
Why should anybody be even remotely motivated to vote Labour in a conservative country ?
I backed corbyn in despite all his dithering and his failures, because he was from the left and as far as politics in the uk are at this moment in time far left, but he's gone, his career in political management is dead, finished. Starmer is the leader, the new king and I support him. so unless you can (and I've asked you several times before without success) name a replacement leader and lay out your plan as to how to win government from the left, take a huge dose of salts and get rid of it because you don't make any sense.
Try and answer the question without the histrionics and without doing several laps of the forum please.
Sydney it isn't my job to get the Labour Party elected or even come up with an identity or policies .
It's up to them to grasp the county's mood and deliver the winning agenda .
Your simp!y tribal Sydney , as long as its Labour then happy days .
But it isn't is it .
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Corbyn became leader because a couple of hundred thousand people took associate membership for three quid and got a vote in the 2015 leadership election. Those were people who only spoke to people who thought Corbyn was the 2nd Coming. And had little idea what the rest of the country thought of him.
God forbid folk without a real voice should be have the enthusiasm to join a party and campaign for change .
The point being that it was nothing to do with a groundswell of popular support for Corbynism and against more centre-Left approaches. The irony is that many of those entryists were precisely the sort of middle class types that you despise.
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You don't ever seem to have a logical point Tyke, that's the problem, you don't do anything, you don't have a party that can gain government and you spend your time berating the only party that could possibly get rid of this government. You'll be blaming Starmer for Corbyn's resignation next.
But what's your logical point Sydney ?
If you think this country is going to elect a man with no charisma and a party with no policies or identity then good luck with that .
This country whether you like it or not is a conservative country , there's no more a revealing post than Yorkshire Puddings that nails that narrative .
You've had 13 years of not being the Tories and you lost two elections on the back of it .
The left had a go and whilst falling just short in 2017 were walloped in 2019 .
My point is which you desperately fail to see is that Labour need to come up with something else .
Something that YP can vote for and something I can hold my nose and vote for .
The reality is at this moment in time absolutely nobody within Labour has that kind of talent to deliver on and all you have is to winge at the Tories .
You can't even make a case for the energy companies failing , absolutely no position what so ever .
You signed up to Johnson's brexit deal .
You will no doubt sign up to plan B and vote with the government because you can't come up with a Plan C .
Why should anybody be even remotely motivated to vote Labour in a conservative country ?
I backed corbyn in despite all his dithering and his failures, because he was from the left and as far as politics in the uk are at this moment in time far left, but he's gone, his career in political management is dead, finished. Starmer is the leader, the new king and I support him. so unless you can (and I've asked you several times before without success) name a replacement leader and lay out your plan as to how to win government from the left, take a huge dose of salts and get rid of it because you don't make any sense.
Try and answer the question without the histrionics and without doing several laps of the forum please.
Sydney it isn't my job to get the Labour Party elected or even come up with an identity or policies .
It's up to them to grasp the county's mood and deliver the winning agenda .
Your simp!y tribal Sydney , as long as its Labour then happy days .
But it isn't is it .
You must have a whole barnful of straw men tyke, you trot several out every time you post, ignore what you just wrote whatever it is and answer the question.
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Corbyn became leader because a couple of hundred thousand people took associate membership for three quid and got a vote in the 2015 leadership election. Those were people who only spoke to people who thought Corbyn was the 2nd Coming. And had little idea what the rest of the country thought of him.
God forbid folk without a real voice should be have the enthusiasm to join a party and campaign for change .
The point being that it was nothing to do with a groundswell of popular support for Corbynism and against more centre-Left approaches. The irony is that many of those entryists were precisely the sort of middle class types that you despise.
Thats actually perfectly true , people who came from a wide range of backgrounds wanted change .
You'd have thought an educated man would have recognised that and become the credible face of it wouldn't you ?
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Yes Tyke. People. About 0.3% of the population. They were the ones who out Corbyn in post.
I'm not questioning the constitutional correctness of that. I'm pointing out that it's daft to interpret that as a popular groundswell of desire to drag Labour to the Left.
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You don't ever seem to have a logical point Tyke, that's the problem, you don't do anything, you don't have a party that can gain government and you spend your time berating the only party that could possibly get rid of this government. You'll be blaming Starmer for Corbyn's resignation next.
But what's your logical point Sydney ?
If you think this country is going to elect a man with no charisma and a party with no policies or identity then good luck with that .
This country whether you like it or not is a conservative country , there's no more a revealing post than Yorkshire Puddings that nails that narrative .
You've had 13 years of not being the Tories and you lost two elections on the back of it .
The left had a go and whilst falling just short in 2017 were walloped in 2019 .
My point is which you desperately fail to see is that Labour need to come up with something else .
Something that YP can vote for and something I can hold my nose and vote for .
The reality is at this moment in time absolutely nobody within Labour has that kind of talent to deliver on and all you have is to winge at the Tories .
You can't even make a case for the energy companies failing , absolutely no position what so ever .
You signed up to Johnson's brexit deal .
You will no doubt sign up to plan B and vote with the government because you can't come up with a Plan C .
Why should anybody be even remotely motivated to vote Labour in a conservative country ?
I backed corbyn in despite all his dithering and his failures, because he was from the left and as far as politics in the uk are at this moment in time far left, but he's gone, his career in political management is dead, finished. Starmer is the leader, the new king and I support him. so unless you can (and I've asked you several times before without success) name a replacement leader and lay out your plan as to how to win government from the left, take a huge dose of salts and get rid of it because you don't make any sense.
Try and answer the question without the histrionics and without doing several laps of the forum please.
Sydney it isn't my job to get the Labour Party elected or even come up with an identity or policies .
It's up to them to grasp the county's mood and deliver the winning agenda .
Your simp!y tribal Sydney , as long as its Labour then happy days .
But it isn't is it .
You must have a whole barnful of straw men tyke, you trot several out every time you post, ignore what you just wrote whatever it is and answer the question.
There isn't so much as a straw dolly Sydney in my house .
Just facts , if you want to say the Labour Party have a position on the Energy companies , didn't vote for Johnson's brexit deal and will vote against Plan B or abstain then you can always provide the evidence to back that up .
I'll await the evidence , in your own time of course .
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Yes Tyke. People. About 0.3% of the population. They were the ones who out Corbyn in post.
I'm not questioning the constitutional correctness of that. I'm pointing out that it's daft to interpret that as a popular groundswell of desire to drag Labour to the Left.
Billy I'm intrigued .
So we've a position that cuts through class division .
We've a position that grows the Party membership so much it becomes the biggest in Europe .
We've a position where huge funding is coming in at extraordinary levels .
We've a position where the Party has an identity and people know what it stands for .
So why on earth would you not build on that energy and instead purge it .
Purge it to the point it doesn't have a vision , any policies and is so struggling for finance it's making people redundant .
All for the sake of taking the party to a position where they've previously lost twice .
Ain't the centre ground Utopia ??
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Two things to remember, the results of the 2019 election, it tends to focus the mind, the other is Einstein's definition of insanity.
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My view is the Labour Party are always going to be coming in second now they’ve lost Scotland
The main problem or me is the voting system. There are too many seats that are set in stone and too few that change hands
There should be some kind of proportional representation when every vote stands for something
That could also bring other parties into play like the greens. More people would vote for them if they thought they would have a proper say in government
I remember 1 election the liberals got something like 7 million votes and about 11 seats. (It might not have been that many seats). That can’t be right
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UKIP got 3.9 million votes in the 2015 election, giving them just ONE seat!
If the system were perfectly proportional, that 12.4% of the vote would give UKIP 12.4% of MPs—around 80 out of 650 in total.
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In the last election I think Labour got 40% and the tories 42.2%. Yet they won by 80 seats. If everyone’s vote counted for something it wouldn’t take much of a swing
It’s not going to change any time soon. The tories would need to be like a turkey voting for Christmas
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Also Labour Phil. As you see many times on here the Labour Party is a coalition of people with very different views. Under PR this would splinter off into several different parties.
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The biggest threat to democracy isn't just FPTP in this country it goes way deeper than that .
Political donations and way way too many MP's are far too close to big business .
Generally speaking it's a Tory thing but New Labour had some significant donations too when they were in power .
Why do people give the Tory Party millions of pounds ?
To shape policy that suits them , not challenge tax avoidance and get around competition rules or planning permission from local authorities .
Change the word Donations to Bribes because that's what it is in reality , it's legal corruption .
I suppose union funding to the Labour Party could be classed in the same conversation just for balance although members can tick the box and not contribute to the political fund and Union funding definitely doesn't seem to have the same impact as big business donations to the Tory Party does in this day and age .
The country claims it's a democracy but the reality is it isn't .
You've the democracy that's chosen for you so you can't have UKIP despite millions voting for them of which they are fully entitled to do .
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In the last election I think Labour got 40% and the tories 42.2%. Yet they won by 80 seats. If everyone’s vote counted for something it wouldn’t take much of a swing
It’s not going to change any time soon. The tories would need to be like a turkey voting for Christmas
In the 2019 election the Tories got 43.6% of the votes and Labour got 32.1%
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Big business, unions it’s all money for political influence. ALL should be banned