Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: tyke1962 on July 16, 2022, 12:13:10 pm
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Is there a GE election currently taking place ?
Live TV debates with the candidates pulling each other to bits .
This is getting portrayed as though we are electing a new government , that's the spin , the deceit if you will with the MSM complicit in the deception .
May I remind people this is a government of 12 years and counting and would someone from the media kindly point out why there is a Conservative Party leadership election going on today .
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No you haven’t. This is being hyped up out of all proportion
It’s a leadership contest albeit the winner will be Prime Minister
Why there is a need for TV debates is beyond me. Also why the Tories want this all over the media is beyond me. It can only reflect badly on them as a party
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They need a tv debate to tell the country what they are going to do about foodbanks, about those on zero hours contracts and the better jobs they will create, about levelling up, the NHS are they going to continue with privatisation, are they still hiring nurses and police, the million hospitals they are building, climate change action, the cost of living ...................... etc
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It is an absolutely bizarre contest.
You would think that seeing as they all stood on the same manifesto only 2 1/2 years ago that the contest would be about who is the best person to deliver that manifesto.
Instead, as Tyke say, its like a GE campaign with 5 totally opposite sides all offering a different vision whilst trashing their recent record in government at the same time.
They have no idea what they stand for or why they stand for it. And one of them will run the country in 8 weeks.
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No you haven’t. This is being hyped up out of all proportion
It’s a leadership contest albeit the winner will be Prime Minister
Why there is a need for TV debates is beyond me. Also why the Tories want this all over the media is beyond me. It can only reflect badly on them as a party
It just shows the depth of the deception getting played out here .
A new leader offering whatever bullshyte they are offering , a promise of this , that and the other as though the last 3 years never happened never mind the last 12 .
The TV debate is actually laughable given less than 0.47% of the electorate will vote in a new PM .
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No you haven’t. This is being hyped up out of all proportion
It’s a leadership contest albeit the winner will be Prime Minister
Why there is a need for TV debates is beyond me. Also why the Tories want this all over the media is beyond me. It can only reflect badly on them as a party
It just shows the depth of the deception getting played out here .
A new leader offering whatever bullshyte they are offering , a promise of this , that and the other as though the last 3 years never happened never mind the last 12 .
The TV debate is actually laughable given less than 0.47% of the electorate will vote in a new PM .
80% of the Tory membership are in socio-economic classes ABC1
56% live in London or the Home Counties.
39% are over 65.
65% are male.
That's the demographic that's going to choose our PM.
Wealthy old southern men. The golf club bore rules the country.
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bst despises pensioners shock.
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All theartre for the masses. The next PM will already have been chosen by those pulling the strings.
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All theartre for the masses. The next PM will already have been chosen by those pulling the strings.
Not quite sure about that. Given the amount of vitriol aimed towards Penny Mordaunt in the papers over the past couple of days, those puling the strings dont think their choice for PM is going to be PM.
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It will be a WEF "Young Global Leader"
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The best candidate for Labour in my opinion is Sunak .
With the economy unlikely to improve and possibly get worse Keith can pin the blame on the former chancellor .
Sunak's less than patriotic credentials with his Green Card and his wife's tax status are also very good lines of attack .
Whether Keith is up to sticking the boot in effectively is debatable mind .
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bst despises pensioners shock.
I can't imagine any pensioner losing too much sleep over it, Hound. In fact, probably the opposite. After all, his praise of anyone is hardly a commendable endorsement.
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No you haven’t. This is being hyped up out of all proportion
It’s a leadership contest albeit the winner will be Prime Minister
Why there is a need for TV debates is beyond me. Also why the Tories want this all over the media is beyond me. It can only reflect badly on them as a party
It just shows the depth of the deception getting played out here .
A new leader offering whatever bullshyte they are offering , a promise of this , that and the other as though the last 3 years never happened never mind the last 12 .
The TV debate is actually laughable given less than 0.47% of the electorate will vote in a new PM .
80% of the Tory membership are in socio-economic classes ABC1
56% live in London or the Home Counties.
39% are over 65.
65% are male.
That's the demographic that's going to choose our PM.
Wealthy old southern men. The golf club bore rules the country.
honest question was there anything about % ethnicity (as we call it nowadays) in those stats ?
because at this moment in time Badenoch is getting ridiculously hammered in the betting and rather than Mavis of Coronation Street (a.k.a. Truss ) getting Badenoch's votes it could be the other way around
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I don’t get where you’re coming from Syd. Yes we do need to know all those things you raised but it’s not relevant in this contest. That’s something for the next General Election
This is about who is going to lead the tories into that election
The public will be able to make their minds up in the next 2 and a bit years
This is just absolutely nonsense and the only benefactors are the Labour Party
Waste of time effort and money
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bst despises pensioners shock.
I can't imagine any pensioner losing too much sleep over it, Hound. In fact, probably the opposite. After all, his praise of anyone is hardly a commendable endorsement.
Ahh Hound. Never misses a chance to draw a wrong conclusion. Usually the one that supports his stupid prejudices
For the record (do I REALLY have to say this?) of course I don't despise pensioners. I despise ignorant selfish people. And the evidence suggests that there are more of those than average in the current generation of pensioners. So I despise those. But there are so brilliant, altruistic, thoughtful caring pensioners. And I take my hat off to them as exemplars. I intend to become one, one day.
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Who are the ignorant selfish pensioners, those who have a different opinion than you?
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No BB. What a stupid thing to say.
Of course all people who have a different opinion to me aren't ignorant and selfish. I respect many people who have a different opinion to me.
But the fact is that this generation of 50-odds+ is the first one since the Industrial Revolution whose grandkids have worse economic opportunities that they have had. And the ignorant selfish ones are oblivious to the role they've played in that. And then they blame to younger generations.
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How old are you BST?
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None of your business.
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bst despises pensioners shock.
I can't imagine any pensioner losing too much sleep over it, Hound. In fact, probably the opposite. After all, his praise of anyone is hardly a commendable endorsement.
Ahh Hound. Never misses a chance to draw a wrong conclusion. Usually the one that supports his stupid prejudices
For the record (do I REALLY have to say this?) of course I don't despise pensioners. I despise ignorant selfish people. And the evidence suggests that there are more of those than average in the current generation of pensioners. So I despise those. But there are so brilliant, altruistic, thoughtful caring pensioners. And I take my hat off to them as exemplars. I intend to become one, one day.
bst, it is very much YOU who has the prejudices and you have often criticised pensioners collectively in the past.
Possibly, no, probably, because of the way they vote in general.
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And this woman wants to be PM? She can't find her way out of a 1 door room and wonders why she can't speak to someone on the phone
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It looks to me like she's holding the wire around her thumb, hiding it from view and making it look like the phone's upside down.
Hope this isn't another anti-Tory lie!
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Here's one for you BB
I worked in the Cabinet Office on a project quite a few years ago and can hand on heart say Liz Truss and Amber Rudd might be the two dimmest people I've ever met. Failed to grasp very basic, carefully laid out concepts.
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And this woman wants to be PM? She can't find her way out of a 1 door room and wonders why she can't speak to someone on the phone
It's a fake. Here's the original.
.https://mobile.twitter.com/trussliz/status/1163746041117794306?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1163746041117794306%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.indy100.com%2Fnews%2Fliz-truss-japan-trade-deals-twitter-social-media-9072676
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BST it would be nice if you could justify your comments about pensioners with some kind of supportive MORI poll type stat stating that there are more than the average pensioners are ignorant and selfish
Maybe it’s a case of ‘A lot more worldly wise and have experience to support some of their views not just out and out bias and prejudice’
If you had made that kind of random assumptive derogatory comment about another minority grouping there would be hell to pay.
I take it you are referring to the hard working tax paying pensioners that have supported the economy for years to allow others like yourself to live the good free lives you have
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RTR, your story might have more credence if Red herrings like the one above weren't constantly put on social media, diluting the authenticity of any article.
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Phil
The Baby Boomer generation had an excellent inheritance.
Unprecedented spending on state education when they were kids.
For those who took advantage of that, a huge increase (state funded) in higher education that gave hitherto unmatched opportunities for social mobility, with courses free and the less affluent actually paid to study.
For those who didn't make University, unemployment was low in the 60s and 70s and there were plenty of opportunities for school leavers to start decent jobs.
The NHS was funded to previously unheard of levels.
There was a plentiful supply of houses. Social housing for those who couldn't afford mortgages, and for those who could, there were plenty of decent houses at 2-3x annual wages. Yes interest rates were high, but the Govt gave you tax relief on that, and because wage inflation was high, the debt quickly shrivelled compared to income.
If you fell on hard times, the State was there. Unemployment benefit was high enough to mean you didn't end up on the breadline or falling through the net.
Looking to the future, the State would pay you a guaranteed earnings related pension when you retired if you paid your subs.
That was the world inherited by the Boomers. A world built by both Right and Left wing Governments.
They then presided over an era that ripped all that up. The next generation left school or University to 3million+ on the dole and benefits slashed.
Young people going to University were told not only to pay for their own expenses but to pay for their courses too.
The Boomers disproportionately voted for Tory Govts in the 80s and 10s that throttled off increases in stated education and NHS spending, in return for tax cuts for those doing OK.
House prices rocketed, enriching those who had bought before the boom but eliminating an entire generation from home ownership. (I employ two PhD graduates, both in their mid-30s. I'm paying above market rates, but neither of them can afford to buy a house in a remotely attractive area.)
Guaranteed pensions have pretty much vanished.
All the inheritance that the Boomers enjoyed has been denied the generations coming after. It is pretty well baked in that the current Millennial and Gen Z cohorts will have a lower material standard of living than the Boomers.
But when you ask opinions, like here..
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/policy-institute/assets/housing-hard-work-and-identity-generational-experiences-and-attitudes.pdf
...over and over again the Boomers are more than average likely to say that younger people are feckless or don't work hard, and less likely to put the economic struggles of the young down to the world that the Boomers created.
Not every Boomer thinks that. Of course they don't, because there are many thoughtful, decent, reflective people in every generation. But it's instructive that on almost all questions, Boomers have a worse than average opinion of younger people.
That's my thesis. As a cohort they had the best inheritance of any generation in history. They are handing on a worse one and far too many of them don't face up to their part in that.
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You haven’t missed owt Tyke. What you’re seeing is yet more dysfunctional behaviour from this government.
A decision for MPs and party members is being played out as being in the public interest. And yet all of the candidates would be opposed to an immediate general election.
This showcasing is something that the Conservative Party - who no longer have any idea what they stand for - are demanding to see who plays well with the electorate. Absolutely everything to do with being telegenic, nothing to do with ideas, vision or capability.
Utterly astonishing.
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It's funny how Hound and BB persist in generalising from a very specific, and extremely verifiable, point about opinions and views in one specific age group. Tgey nevee moan when Billy talks about other age groups do they? It's like they've never been introduced to critical thinking, to analytical thinking. These continued wild generalisations in support of their owm prejudice tells us all what we need to know about the limitations of their intellects.
BobG
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What wild generalisations would them be then, BG?
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A Labour source on the shambles of them hammering one another and their own record in government during the ITV debate tonight:
"My jaw is on the table at how damaging this is for the Tories. We couldn’t pay for this.”
https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1548741037925044225
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What wild generalisations would them be then, BG?
That would be the Bob who has never met us BB and yet feels qualified to speak about intellectual status.
Bob of course is so intellectually superior that he doesn’t need to check what he has written before actually posting.
It's funny how Hound and BB persist in generalising from a very specific, and extremely verifiable, point about opinions and views in one specific age group. Tgey nevee moan when Billy talks about other age groups do they? It's like they've never been introduced to critical thinking, to analytical thinking. These continued wild generalisations in support of their owm prejudice tells us all what we need to know about the limitations of their intellects.
BobG
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Yep, Maybe he thinks BB stands for Baby Boomer and we Hound the youngsters with claims of them being feckless lazy gits! Maybe he thinks BG stands for Boomer Gratitude?
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This is absolute bat shyte , three live tv debates going out to 70m people but only 180k get to decide the outcome .
Meanwhile the MSM including the bloody Guardian all fall in to line and cover the bstrd .
Anyone with an actual pair of balls to the left of the Tories wouldn't give it the time of day .
Even the media who are supposed to be against the Tories are suddenly client journalists and what's more worrying is they can't even see they are client journalists .
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Tyke
Calm yourself.
If you want a left of centre Govt (big "if" in your case, I'll grant you) then the best thing you could hope for would be to have these five lightweights fighting like rats in a sack without an idea between them, on prime time every night.
Labour couldn't do a better job themselves of destroying Tory credibility.
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Tonight.
Truss: We can't have a reasonable public sector pay rise because... Inflation. (Note. A 5% rise would put an additional £7bn into the economy.)
Also Truss: I will give you a massive string of tax cuts. (Note. Latest estimate are that Truss"s tax cuts would be putting about £40bn into the economy.)
Thick or mendacious? You choose. There's no alternative.
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Tyke
Calm yourself.
If you want a left of centre Govt (big "if" in your case, I'll grant you) then the best thing you could hope for would be to have these five lightweights fighting like rats in a sack without an idea between them, on prime time every night.
Labour couldn't do a better job themselves of destroying Tory credibility.
Are you suggesting the Tories have some credibility to destroy after Boris?
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I suppose that the tv company are getting what they wanted, that is high viewing figures.
Personally I haven’t watched even one minute of it but I guess that some will have tuned in every night to find scraps to post about on here.
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Some of the ageist comments on here are a f*cking disgrace. I'm surprised the moderators haven't said something.
Some of you guys in your 50s are quite unique; the first ever generation in history to be disrespectful and insulting to the elderly.
All out of spite and jealousy.
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They do tend to produce a lot of feckless idle gossip.
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SS.
What do you take offence at?
The argument that the Boomers inherited a good deal and left a shit one behind them? Feel free to explain why you don't agree with that if you wish?
Or is it the polling evidence that the Boomers disproportionately blame younger people for their economic plight? Again, feel free to point out why you disagree.
As it is, you seem to confuse "setting out an evidence-based argument" with "f**king disgraceful ageist comments".
Which suggests that you've missed the bit where I said that I don't think that all pensioners are selfish and ignorant. Not by a long way. Just that the evidence suggests there are more pensioners fitting that description than there are people in other age groups.
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Tyke
Calm yourself.
If you want a left of centre Govt (big "if" in your case, I'll grant you) then the best thing you could hope for would be to have these five lightweights fighting like rats in a sack without an idea between them, on prime time every night.
Labour couldn't do a better job themselves of destroying Tory credibility.
That's not how it's getting sold Billy and I'm surprised you can't see it .
This is getting sold to the public as a GE but crucially minus the other parties .
The winner of this charade is totally absorb of all blame and accountability for the last three years plus nine .
You do know there's no such thing as bad publicity Billy .
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SS.
What do you take offence at?
The argument that the Boomers inherited a good deal and left a shit one behind them? Feel free to explain why you don't agree with that if you wish?
Or is it the polling evidence that the Boomers disproportionately blame younger people for their economic plight? Again, feel free to point out why you disagree.
As it is, you seem to confuse "setting out an evidence-based argument" with "f**king disgraceful ageist comments".
Which suggests that you've missed the bit where I said that I don't think that all pensioners are selfish and ignorant. Not by a long way. Just that the evidence suggests there are more pensioners fitting that description than there are people in other age groups.
It might help Billy if younger people actually went out and voted .
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Tyke a lot of your last rant is very true. That doesn’t make the majority of pensioners ignorant and selfish.
I for one haven’t yet retired. I am also mindful of the fact that when I left school you went to university in the main because you were bright and you intended to study something that would benefit yourself and society
You went to be a professional
Nowadays so many young people are studying nothing subjects that wouldn’t have been on any university curriculum in my day.
With so many young people going to university it has to be paid for. I think that young people are also realising that and that is why there are more apprenticeship
I also agree there should be more housing available at affordable prices. That still doesn’t make the majority of pensioners ignorant and selfish.
You also need to remember a lot of people benefitted from buying their council houses at next to nothing prices and they profited from future sales. I would actually disagree that the benefit system was better in the past. I grew up on a council estate and we lived next door to the only person we knew who didn’t work. He didn’t work because he was genuinely extremely poorly and unlike some today he couldn’t work
That family were poor and until the children left school and started to work they really did struggle to make ends meet
The baby boomers have had it good but they have also seen a society change where the majority are ‘are ignorant and selfish ‘ and only some have the sense to be thoughtful reflective and decent
We are living in sxxt times and that is an overall societal issue and is not down to the majority of over 65s not caring
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BST once again you quote ‘Just that the evidence suggests there are more pensioners fitting that description than there are people in other age groups.’ Without evidence to support your comments
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You certainly wouldn't think that if you had watched either of the debates Tyke.
Tho you will be seeing many clips from them in future. In Labour Party campaign videos.
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SS.
What do you take offence at?
The argument that the Boomers inherited a good deal and left a shit one behind them? Feel free to explain why you don't agree with that if you wish?
Or is it the polling evidence that the Boomers disproportionately blame younger people for their economic plight? Again, feel free to point out why you disagree.
As it is, you seem to confuse "setting out an evidence-based argument" with "f**king disgraceful ageist comments".
Which suggests that you've missed the bit where I said that I don't think that all pensioners are selfish and ignorant. Not by a long way. Just that the evidence suggests there are more pensioners fitting that description than there are people in other age groups.
BST, you're actually becoming paradoxical now. Economic plight? You've just said we've had the best of everything; which one is it?
I don't blame youngsters for anything, and I don't know anyone who does. In fact, their attitude towards old people is a lot better than some people who are older, and should know better.
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Tyke a lot of your last rant is very true. That doesn’t make the majority of pensioners ignorant and selfish.
I for one haven’t yet retired. I am also mindful of the fact that when I left school you went to university in the main because you were bright and you intended to study something that would benefit yourself and society
You went to be a professional
Nowadays so many young people are studying nothing subjects that wouldn’t have been on any university curriculum in my day.
With so many young people going to university it has to be paid for. I think that young people are also realising that and that is why there are more apprenticeship
I also agree there should be more housing available at affordable prices. That still doesn’t make the majority of pensioners ignorant and selfish.
You also need to remember a lot of people benefitted from buying their council houses at next to nothing prices and they profited from future sales. I would actually disagree that the benefit system was better in the past. I grew up on a council estate and we lived next door to the only person we knew who didn’t work. He didn’t work because he was genuinely extremely poorly and unlike some today he couldn’t work
That family were poor and until the children left school and started to work they really did struggle to make ends meet
The baby boomers have had it good but they have also seen a society change where the majority are ‘are ignorant and selfish ‘ and only some have the sense to be thoughtful reflective and decent
We are living in sxxt times and that is an overall societal issue and is not down to the majority of over 65s not caring
Phil the way I see it is that the older generation had the sense to join trade unions and actually fight for the things they benefited from .
Very little was given to them that much I do know .
They also did extremely hard and often dangerous jobs in heavy industries .
There's nothing to stop the younger generations using collectivism to improve their lives .
There's nothing to stop them going out and voting .
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You certainly wouldn't think that if you had watched either of the debates Tyke.
Tho you will be seeing many clips from them in future. In Labour Party campaign videos.
Well we will see in due course how that works out .
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SS.
The economic plight of younger generations. The ones who are going to be worse off than yours throughout their lives.
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SS.
What do you take offence at?
The argument that the Boomers inherited a good deal and left a shit one behind them? Feel free to explain why you don't agree with that if you wish?
Or is it the polling evidence that the Boomers disproportionately blame younger people for their economic plight? Again, feel free to point out why you disagree.
As it is, you seem to confuse "setting out an evidence-based argument" with "f**king disgraceful ageist comments".
Which suggests that you've missed the bit where I said that I don't think that all pensioners are selfish and ignorant. Not by a long way. Just that the evidence suggests there are more pensioners fitting that description than there are people in other age groups.
Pensioners have called the next generation idle and useless since time began. It's tradition. Just like its tradition for the younger generation to call pensioners silly old t**ts.
What is probably new is inbetweeners, like you, shit-stirring for political reasons.
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Here's one for you BB
I worked in the Cabinet Office on a project quite a few years ago and can hand on heart say Liz Truss and Amber Rudd might be the two dimmest people I've ever met. Failed to grasp very basic, carefully laid out concepts.
My sister went to toastmasters, public speakers group with Luz Truss....
She can confirm she is as mad as a box of frogs.
She is very very concerned she is actually in the running to become the prime Minister.
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What did your sister think about Corbyn and Abbott running the country?
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I'm sure you have at least learned to read BB. You might even remember some of the blatherings you have uttered recently.
BobG
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What wild generalisations would them be then, BG?
That would be the Bob who has never met us BB and yet feels qualified to speak about intellectual status.
Bob of course is so intellectually superior that he doesn’t need to check what he has written before actually posting.
It's funny how Hound and BB persist in generalising from a very specific, and extremely verifiable, point about opinions and views in one specific age group. Tgey nevee moan when Billy talks about other age groups do they? It's like they've never been introduced to critical thinking, to analytical thinking. These continued wild generalisations in support of their owm prejudice tells us all what we need to know about the limitations of their intellects.
BobG
c
Your intellectual goes before you. As does your double standard in commenting on me when you too have never met me. I reckon my original point is more than proved.
BobG
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bst despises pensioners shock.
I can't imagine any pensioner losing too much sleep over it, Hound. In fact, probably the opposite. After all, his praise of anyone is hardly a commendable endorsement.
Can't stop projecting your hate onto others, the real hound stands up
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BST
Agreed for me it was a big thing to vote when I was 18. When I look back I had no idea what I was really voting for I voted the same as my dad
It seems to me that a lot of young people I know are either apathetic or feel it’s a lost cause. I think a lot of their views may fall with some minority parties who have no chance of achieving anything in our mainly 2 party system with a bit of disruption from the Lib Dems.
They need to feel that their opinions count.
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I don’t get where you’re coming from Syd. Yes we do need to know all those things you raised but it’s not relevant in this contest. That’s something for the next General Election
This is about who is going to lead the tories into that election
The public will be able to make their minds up in the next 2 and a bit years
This is just absolutely nonsense and the only benefactors are the Labour Party
Waste of time effort and money
Only because you see the opposition benefitting aye phil, why don't you suggest a massive zoom call just for tories.
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What wild generalisations would them be then, BG?
That would be the Bob who has never met us BB and yet feels qualified to speak about intellectual status.
Bob of course is so intellectually superior that he doesn’t need to check what he has written before actually posting.
It's funny how Hound and BB persist in generalising from a very specific, and extremely verifiable, point about opinions and views in one specific age group. Tgey nevee moan when Billy talks about other age groups do they? It's like they've never been introduced to critical thinking, to analytical thinking. These continued wild generalisations in support of their owm prejudice tells us all what we need to know about the limitations of their intellects.
BobG
c
Your intellectual goes before you. As does your double standard in commenting on me when you too have never met me. I reckon my original point is more than proved.
BobG
Then let's meet. when are you next at a Rovers game?
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No you haven’t. This is being hyped up out of all proportion
It’s a leadership contest albeit the winner will be Prime Minister
Why there is a need for TV debates is beyond me. Also why the Tories want this all over the media is beyond me. It can only reflect badly on them as a party
It just shows the depth of the deception getting played out here .
A new leader offering whatever bullshyte they are offering , a promise of this , that and the other as though the last 3 years never happened never mind the last 12 .
The TV debate is actually laughable given less than 0.47% of the electorate will vote in a new PM .
80% of the Tory membership are in socio-economic classes ABC1
56% live in London or the Home Counties.
39% are over 65.
65% are male.
That's the demographic that's going to choose our PM.
Wealthy old southern men. The golf club bore rules the country.
honest question was there anything about % ethnicity (as we call it nowadays) in those stats ?
because at this moment in time Badenoch is getting ridiculously hammered in the betting and rather than Mavis of Coronation Street (a.k.a. Truss ) getting Badenoch's votes it could be the other way around
it looks like my request "has (currently) fallen on stony ground ,,,,, butit's not too late to answer
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I'm sure you have at least learned to read BB. You might even remember some of the blatherings you have uttered recently.
BobG
Just seen this. Care to mention any BG?
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Not watched any of them, little desire to either. None of the candidates are particularly strong and all have weaknesses. Sunak is probably the most sensible of a poor bunch but his economic decisions are questionable.
I'm not sure we really need a debate on generations personally, it's inevitable people change is the age, most naturally become more selfish as they age, I've read a few papers on that in the past, fascinating.
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bst despises pensioners shock.
I can't imagine any pensioner losing too much sleep over it, Hound. In fact, probably the opposite. After all, his praise of anyone is hardly a commendable endorsement.
Can't stop projecting your hate onto others, the real hound stands up
BB hardly needs any help from me, or anyone else for that matter, in forming an option of bst.
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What wild generalisations would them be then, BG?
That would be the Bob who has never met us BB and yet feels qualified to speak about intellectual status.
Bob of course is so intellectually superior that he doesn’t need to check what he has written before actually posting.
It's funny how Hound and BB persist in generalising from a very specific, and extremely verifiable, point about opinions and views in one specific age group. Tgey nevee moan when Billy talks about other age groups do they? It's like they've never been introduced to critical thinking, to analytical thinking. These continued wild generalisations in support of their owm prejudice tells us all what we need to know about the limitations of their intellects.
BobG
c
Your intellectual goes before you. As does your double standard in commenting on me when you too have never met me. I reckon my original point is more than proved.
BobG
I think that cuts both way Bob.
You’re welcome.
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Do you know what I think? I think BG is more bothered about his representation than his point. That's probably because his point is somewhat impotent. To camouflage that, and to make an impression, he probably gets his thesaurus book out.
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What did your sister think about Corbyn and Abbott running the country?
Irrelevant. It never happened. I doubt it would be as spectacular a shitshow as we currently have, mind.
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Yes, it never happened because of people like me. Imagine Corbyn spending all the money he planned to spend and then COVID coming along!
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"People Like Us' you could make a tv show about that!
Yes, it never happened because of people like me. Imagine Corbyn spending all the money he planned to spend and then COVID coming along!
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Those competing for their own advancement on tv atm are the rejects the ones cast aside that couldn't compete with a debauched liar and idle wastrel.
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SS.
What do you take offence at?
The argument that the Boomers inherited a good deal and left a shit one behind them? Feel free to explain why you don't agree with that if you wish?
Or is it the polling evidence that the Boomers disproportionately blame younger people for their economic plight? Again, feel free to point out why you disagree.
As it is, you seem to confuse "setting out an evidence-based argument" with "f**king disgraceful ageist comments".
Which suggests that you've missed the bit where I said that I don't think that all pensioners are selfish and ignorant. Not by a long way. Just that the evidence suggests there are more pensioners fitting that description than there are people in other age groups.
Pensioners have called the next generation idle and useless since time began. It's tradition. Just like its tradition for the younger generation to call pensioners silly old t**ts.
What is probably new is inbetweeners, like you, shit-stirring for political reasons.
BB
Aye. But this is the first generation of pensioners to pass on a poorer inheritance to the next generation since the Industrial Revolution.
You'd think they might have cause to stop and think before falling into the old, lazy stereotypical slanging match. Especially given what the younger generations have sacrificed for them over the past 30 months.
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SS.
What do you take offence at?
The argument that the Boomers inherited a good deal and left a shit one behind them? Feel free to explain why you don't agree with that if you wish?
Or is it the polling evidence that the Boomers disproportionately blame younger people for their economic plight? Again, feel free to point out why you disagree.
As it is, you seem to confuse "setting out an evidence-based argument" with "f**king disgraceful ageist comments".
Which suggests that you've missed the bit where I said that I don't think that all pensioners are selfish and ignorant. Not by a long way. Just that the evidence suggests there are more pensioners fitting that description than there are people in other age groups.
Pensioners have called the next generation idle and useless since time began. It's tradition. Just like its tradition for the younger generation to call pensioners silly old t**ts.
What is probably new is inbetweeners, like you, shit-stirring for political reasons.
BB
Aye. But this is the first generation of pensioners to pass on a poorer inheritance to the next generation since the Industrial Revolution.
You'd think they might have cause to stop and think before falling into the old, lazy stereotypical slanging match. Especially given what the younger generations have sacrificed for them over the past 30 months.
And once you accept this piece of information as fact you can start to do summat about it, aye Steve?
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SS.
What do you take offence at?
The argument that the Boomers inherited a good deal and left a shit one behind them? Feel free to explain why you don't agree with that if you wish?
Or is it the polling evidence that the Boomers disproportionately blame younger people for their economic plight? Again, feel free to point out why you disagree.
As it is, you seem to confuse "setting out an evidence-based argument" with "f**king disgraceful ageist comments".
Which suggests that you've missed the bit where I said that I don't think that all pensioners are selfish and ignorant. Not by a long way. Just that the evidence suggests there are more pensioners fitting that description than there are people in other age groups.
Pensioners have called the next generation idle and useless since time began. It's tradition. Just like its tradition for the younger generation to call pensioners silly old t**ts.
What is probably new is inbetweeners, like you, shit-stirring for political reasons.
BB
Aye. But this is the first generation of pensioners to pass on a poorer inheritance to the next generation since the Industrial Revolution.
You'd think they might have cause to stop and think before falling into the old, lazy stereotypical slanging match. Especially given what the younger generations have sacrificed for them over the past 30 months.
What have the younger generations sacrificed for me over the last 30 months?
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Syd you are right that I can only see the opposition benefitting
The precise point that I made
BST What have the younger generation sacrificed that everyone else hasn’t over the last 30 months
All the points you are raising started way before that when large organisations started buying up land and development and holding on to it to sell at extremely large profits
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SS.
What do you take offence at?
The argument that the Boomers inherited a good deal and left a shit one behind them? Feel free to explain why you don't agree with that if you wish?
Or is it the polling evidence that the Boomers disproportionately blame younger people for their economic plight? Again, feel free to point out why you disagree.
As it is, you seem to confuse "setting out an evidence-based argument" with "f**king disgraceful ageist comments".
Which suggests that you've missed the bit where I said that I don't think that all pensioners are selfish and ignorant. Not by a long way. Just that the evidence suggests there are more pensioners fitting that description than there are people in other age groups.
Pensioners have called the next generation idle and useless since time began. It's tradition. Just like its tradition for the younger generation to call pensioners silly old t**ts.
What is probably new is inbetweeners, like you, shit-stirring for political reasons.
BB
Aye. But this is the first generation of pensioners to pass on a poorer inheritance to the next generation since the Industrial Revolution.
You'd think they might have cause to stop and think before falling into the old, lazy stereotypical slanging match. Especially given what the younger generations have sacrificed for them over the past 30 months.
This post sounds like a personal gripe from someone who missed out on an inheritance that they thought was coming their way.
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Those competing for their own advancement on tv atm are the rejects the ones cast aside that couldn't compete with a debauched liar and idle wastrel.
Syd you are right that I can only see the opposition benefitting
The precise point that I made
BST What have the younger generation sacrificed that everyone else hasn’t over the last 30 months
All the points you are raising started way before that when large organisations started buying up land and development and holding on to it to sell at extremely large profits
Yes I get it phil, the real reason why is in my comment above wouldn't you think?
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That is a good point Hound
When the baby boomers unfortunately pass there will be inheritance of property
I would expect that some young people have also benefitted from the banks of mum and dad to help them on their way
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That is a good point Hound
When the baby boomers unfortunately pass there will be inheritance of property
I would expect that some young people have also benefitted from the banks of mum and dad to help them on their way
Yes Phil, our friend hasn’t mentioned those points.
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SS.
What do you take offence at?
The argument that the Boomers inherited a good deal and left a shit one behind them? Feel free to explain why you don't agree with that if you wish?
Or is it the polling evidence that the Boomers disproportionately blame younger people for their economic plight? Again, feel free to point out why you disagree.
As it is, you seem to confuse "setting out an evidence-based argument" with "f**king disgraceful ageist comments".
Which suggests that you've missed the bit where I said that I don't think that all pensioners are selfish and ignorant. Not by a long way. Just that the evidence suggests there are more pensioners fitting that description than there are people in other age groups.
Pensioners have called the next generation idle and useless since time began. It's tradition. Just like its tradition for the younger generation to call pensioners silly old t**ts.
What is probably new is inbetweeners, like you, shit-stirring for political reasons.
BB
Aye. But this is the first generation of pensioners to pass on a poorer inheritance to the next generation since the Industrial Revolution.
You'd think they might have cause to stop and think before falling into the old, lazy stereotypical slanging match. Especially given what the younger generations have sacrificed for them over the past 30 months.
This post sounds like a personal gripe from someone who missed out on an inheritance that they thought was coming their way.
there is a posting on this site that actually backs that fact up :)
some of us have very long memories
does anyone want to mention pensioners getting zero interest on their savings and the pathetically low mortgage rate even in 1963 i seem to recall the banks paid 3% on accounts
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Doesn’t suit the rhetoric
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Phil/SS.
If you truly don't appreciate what young people who were under very little threat from COVID sacrificed to help keep older people safe, you're making a big part of my point for me.
As regards the issue of leaving an inheritance to the next generations, that totally misses the point. That's a personal, individual thing. I'm talking about the collective, about society. The expectation for 200 years is that collectively, society will produce opportunities for the next generation to succeed. For everyone (that's the word) to have the opportunity to get on and transcend the previous generation if they were prepared to work.
What you're saying is that SOME might now have the springboard to do that, IF their parents won on the house price casino. You see my point?
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https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-cancels-conservative-leadership-debate-after-sunak-and-truss-pull-out-12654286
Sorry to get back on topic, but it looks like the Tories have twigged that their high profile disunity, would be better if it wasn't on public display.
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That is a good point Hound
When the baby boomers unfortunately pass there will be inheritance of property
I would expect that some young people have also benefitted from the banks of mum and dad to help them on their way
Some yes, but not all. Never had a penny and I'm 34. As for inheritance, the same. I gladly have three living grandparents.
There are genuine issues for young people economically particularly around housing etc. It's not a competition between young and old but there should be recognition of that fact.
As bst says, covid really caused problems for youngsters too, they missed an awful lot of crucial development time protecting the elderly and vulnerable, that shouldn't be forgotten.
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My lad will be 17 in September, and he's just sat his GCSEs based on 2 yrs of Schooling of a quality we'd have been taken to court for if we had done it ourselves. For those one and 2 yrs older their results are just a guess really, so who knows what value employers will place on them. In order to protect others no school trips , no team sports no socialising etc. All this was done willingly but has to have had an impact. I bought my first house for 27k 26 yrs ago when I was on about 19k pa. Same house now 140k and he will be lucky to be on 30k ? If he stays local at that age .that's assuming he's not up to his neck in student loans. . Not picking sides but this is the reality for kids of his age
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We haven't even mentioned the greatest generational shift of wealth of all.
The economy that the Boomers enjoyed was built on cheap, readily available fossil fuel to power it.
That was a massive benefit for them. It underpinned their economic success.
That era of cheap energy is now snatched away from the younger generations, because the Boomers spent the money that produced, instead of investing in the next generation of energy.
Not only have the younger successors got to pay for the systems to produce the energy of the future, they're also going to be left to deal with the climate mess that their elders have left them with.
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That is a good point Hound
When the baby boomers unfortunately pass there will be inheritance of property
I would expect that some young people have also benefitted from the banks of mum and dad to help them on their way
Some yes, but not all. Never had a penny and I'm 34. As for inheritance, the same. I gladly have three living grandparents.
There are genuine issues for young people economically particularly around housing etc. It's not a competition between young and old but there should be recognition of that fact.
As bst says, covid really caused problems for youngsters too, they missed an awful lot of crucial development time protecting the elderly and vulnerable, that shouldn't be forgotten.
Covid caused problems for everybody. I've never thought any different, and I've never forgotten about the young'uns sacrifices in that respect.
The problem with BST's point in all this is he thinks people who are inconsiderate are exclusive to non-Labour voters.
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https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-cancels-conservative-leadership-debate-after-sunak-and-truss-pull-out-12654286
Sorry to get back on topic, but it looks like the Tories have twigged that their high profile disunity, would be better if it wasn't on public display.
You can't argue your position on national tv - but you expect the electorate to believe you can negotiate with world leaders?
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No you haven’t. This is being hyped up out of all proportion
It’s a leadership contest albeit the winner will be Prime Minister
Why there is a need for TV debates is beyond me. Also why the Tories want this all over the media is beyond me. It can only reflect badly on them as a party
It just shows the depth of the deception getting played out here .
A new leader offering whatever bullshyte they are offering , a promise of this , that and the other as though the last 3 years never happened never mind the last 12 .
The TV debate is actually laughable given less than 0.47% of the electorate will vote in a new PM .
80% of the Tory membership are in socio-economic classes ABC1
56% live in London or the Home Counties.
39% are over 65.
65% are male.
That's the demographic that's going to choose our PM.
Wealthy old southern men. The golf club bore rules the country.
honest question was there anything about % ethnicity (as we call it nowadays) in those stats ?
because at this moment in time Badenoch is getting ridiculously hammered in the betting and rather than Mavis of Coronation Street (a.k.a. Truss ) getting Badenoch's votes it could be the other way around
it looks like my request "has (currently) fallen on stony ground ,,,,, butit's not too late to answer
97% white is the latest info I can find:
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2022/07/tory-leader-contest-boris-johnson-diversity/670507/
https://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/qmul/media/publications/Grassroots,-Britain's-Party-Members.pdf
Who have you bet on CLH - you are savy about these thing?
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That is a good point Hound
When the baby boomers unfortunately pass there will be inheritance of property
I would expect that some young people have also benefitted from the banks of mum and dad to help them on their way
Some yes, but not all. Never had a penny and I'm 34. As for inheritance, the same. I gladly have three living grandparents.
There are genuine issues for young people economically particularly around housing etc. It's not a competition between young and old but there should be recognition of that fact.
As bst says, covid really caused problems for youngsters too, they missed an awful lot of crucial development time protecting the elderly and vulnerable, that shouldn't be forgotten.
Covid caused problems for everybody. I've never thought any different, and I've never forgotten about the young'uns sacrifices in that respect.
The problem with BST's point in all this is he thinks people who are inconsiderate are exclusive to non-Labour voters.
And another thing this generation have used up all the irony, aye bb
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thanks I'm shocked at that
It was like the wild west yesterday
Badenoch went as low as 7/1 fom 33/1 now out to 22/1
Tom sadly exits today as we all know he's now 220/1
we all remember Boris lending votes to stop Gove - i think Gove lost by about 3 votes
i was wondering if it might happen again and found this
https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/sunak-conservative-leadership-gavin-williamson-vote-lending
Cameron (who played the youth card) was second favourite when it went to the members against David Davis you will recall
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You're right CLH that Tugendghat goes today. He's the lady of the (generally) moderates left in the race, although he has a switch that turns him into an uncontrolled lunatic whenever anyone mentions "war" so maybe it's for the best that he won't be in charge.
Of the others, there are four believers in failed far right economics, one of whom is determined to paint herself as Thatcher Reduce but without quite knowing what that means, one who is determined to fight a thermonuclear Culture War that no-one really cares about and one who is so lacking in any content that she doesn't even want us to talk about who is leader.
If this were an interview panel, the decision would be "None appointable. Re-advertise".
But given where we are, Sunak is the only one who looks remotely electable.
And the Tories will get hammered under him in 2024.
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Ok BST I understand now. My parents and others are responsible for the Industrial Revolution which was built around fossil fuels. The same Industrial Revolution that helped build this country
I also now see that they were also responsible for not having future hindsight about the effects of such fuels and also the effects of motor and industrial fuels that have helped to develop this country into a G7 country. I know some on here apparently hate this country but are willing to take all the benefits it offers them
Can I also please ask that no matter what your views are on any subjects some of you stop making every single topic about racism. It really is quite sad. There are forum subjects that genuinely warrant that debate this one started out about the benefits or not of having a TV debate.
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Yes Phil, some good points there.
My dad grafted in the pits for most of his life and my mum started work at 14 as an apprentice gents hairdresser and through further hard graft, opened her own business and held it down through thick and thin for over 30 years before she retired.
Both of them would turn in their graves knowing that they are seen as being responsible for all the ills that befall us now.
Edit: And neither of them ever voted Tory.
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Phil
Your first paragraph I will ignore because it's just daft.
Your second one...well we've known about human made global warming for half a century, so there's no hindsight needed. But if you want to talk about where we are now, and bring this debate round full circle, several of the remaining leadership candidates are talking about watering down our Net Zero committments. Presumably because they need policies that appeal to the predominantly well off, old, white male southerners whose votes they need to attract to win the leadership.
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BST yes we have known about Global warming for a long time but it wasn’t thought of as it is today. Or are you suggesting that it was known about and discussed to the extent it is today and deliberately ignored to cause the downfall of todays youth
Hound your also right my parents would also be turning in their graves. They worked long hard hours to improve themselves and their family. My dad also spent the majority of his life in the mines and my mother worked long and hard in various jobs to support and courage the family to achieve. It is quite disrespectful to slander these hard working people (and there are many many others like them) with the current crisis
I do agree that house prices are ridiculous in comparison to wages. That’s not only down to old / middle aged folk. There are plenty of young people taking advantage of the situation and doing well for themselves. There’s only a market if people are willing to pay. It’s not only boomers buying and selling
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Phil
1) I don't know how many times I have to repeat that I'm not talking about individual pensioners. I'm talking about them on average as a group. Actually, if you're listening to Hound, I suspect I DO know how many times I'll have to say it. EVERY time.
2) No of course I'm not saying that pensioners f**ked the world up deliberately to screw up their grandkids. Do you want to have a sensible discussion on this or not? I'm saying it's been clear for a long, long time how this was going, and the Boomer generation, on average, preferred to ignore it. Because it would have meant changes in their lifestyle and wealth that they preferred not to engage with. So they were happy to listen to the bullshitters who told them it was all a con. Not because the Boomers were evil. Because, on average they preferred to stay ignorant. By the way, there's a poll out in today's Times of the views of Tory party members. Only 4% of them consider the climate crisis to be an important issue. What's the excuse for them?
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BST yes we have known about Global warming for a long time but it wasn’t thought of as it is today. Or are you suggesting that it was known about and discussed to the extent it is today and deliberately ignored to cause the downfall of todays youth
Hound your also right my parents would also be turning in their graves. They worked long hard hours to improve themselves and their family. My dad also spent the majority of his life in the mines and my mother worked long and hard in various jobs to support and courage the family to achieve. It is quite disrespectful to slander these hard working people (and there are many many others like them) with the current crisis
I do agree that house prices are ridiculous in comparison to wages. That’s not only down to old / middle aged folk. There are plenty of young people taking advantage of the situation and doing well for themselves. There’s only a market if people are willing to pay. It’s not only boomers buying and selling
Phil, the average house price today is 65 times higher than in 1970. But the average wage is only 36 times higher:
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2021/05/how-uk-house-prices-have-soared-ahead-average-wages
Wealth inequality in the UK fell from the end of WW1 (when the richest 10%) had over 90% of the wealth in the country until 1985 (when it was just under 50%). Since then it has levelled out - if not risen slightly.
https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/app/uploads/2020/12/The-UKs-wealth-distribution.pdf
Yes there are some young people doing well for themselves, but in general it is more difficult for younger people to improve their lives today than it was their parents and grandparents.
There are a lot of reasons for this - and its a shame politicians dont get pushed more on what they are and what - if anything - they are going to do about it.
I agree it is silly to say 'all people of this generation are this' 'everyone in this generation is that' but in general it is more difficult for younger people to better themselves today.
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Wilts.
"I agree it is silly to say 'all people of this generation are this' 'everyone in this generation is that' but in general it is more difficult for younger people to better themselves today."
I agree entirely, which is why I don't ever say all people of group X are like this.
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When I worra lad only bright kids went to university. Nowadays you're classed as thick if you don't go. I think there is more opportunity for young'uns now than there has ever been in that respect.
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But those that didn't go to uni " back in day" had a chance to make a decent living straight from school in any number of jobs , an opportunity that's not as easily available today. . An old lad I worked with did 30 odd year at Case, he'd never even planned to work there but had to walk down WH road to get to where he had a job , got part way down said sod that , checked positions wanted board and went in case instead . Theres very little opportunity now for someone straight from school with no experience.
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When I worra lad only bright kids went to university. Nowadays you're classed as thick if you don't go. I think there is more opportunity for young'uns now than there has ever been in that respect.
And it only costs them £50k.
I know, I know. They should shut up and be grateful.
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BST, for the purpose of this thread, do you drive an electric car?
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No SS, for reasons I've explained before. I don't have off-street parking and can't do a regular at home charge.
For what it's worth, I have a hybrid that I get 75 to the gallon out of. We are getting a charging point installed at work, after which I'll be moving to a plug in hybrid.
None of that is the point though. It's not really about individual decisions. It's about having a political environment that makes making the right decisions a no brainer, because it's in your economic interests to make the right decision.
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No SS, for reasons I've explained before. I don't have off-street parking and can't do a regular at home charge.
For what it's worth, I have a hybrid that I get 75 to the gallon out of. We are getting a charging point installed at work, after which I'll be moving to a plug in hybrid.
None of that is the point though. It's not really about individual decisions. It's about having a political environment that makes making the right decisions a no brainer, because it's in your economic interests to make the right decision.
My point is that so many people, particularly politicians and TV pundits, are banging on all the time about climate change, and lecturing people like me, that no longer drive cars, to be more responsible, while they all continue to drive.
Hypocrisy.
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No SS, for reasons I've explained before. I don't have off-street parking and can't do a regular at home charge.
For what it's worth, I have a hybrid that I get 75 to the gallon out of. We are getting a charging point installed at work, after which I'll be moving to a plug in hybrid.
None of that is the point though. It's not really about individual decisions. It's about having a political environment that makes making the right decisions a no brainer, because it's in your economic interests to make the right decision.
BST, can’t you see though that not everyone accepts that one Party or the other offers everyone what they want.
You appear to think that if some people don’t see things your way then they are making the wrong decisions.
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BB. You make a good point about UNI
I would say that it is a double edge sword. So many young people go to university that most of their degrees a de-valued.
How many young people are sitting on degrees with sxxt jobs that they would have had without them. Only difference being they now have debt
Yes they get more education. There are so many graduates for every job that it’s not an advantage
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It's because our economy no longer has need for millions of manual labourers or very low skilled workers. Modern employment requires a higher average level of education than it ever did. Even University courses that aren't overtly vocational teach students how to assemble information and work logically through it. It teaches them to develop and present cases, how to manage workloads. Those are all marketable skills which get developed at University.
Apart from the fact that being exposed to new, challenging ideas is in itself a social good.
Frankly, most people who decry University education don't know a great deal about it.
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I'm mixed on university. I wouldn't have started my career as I did without it. But nobody's really bothered after a few years because experience is more important than education. Frankly my qualifications aren't relevant to me these days, but it is a given that I have to have my post uni qualifications.
In my field it clearly is tougher (but not impossible) without a degree. Indeed my wife has managed more than fine without one. I look at the younger guys I've worked with and those without degrees do fine the step up to qualified status harder than those with. It's the softer none technical skills university will teach you that's important.
Do I think though the value is worth the cost? Not really. For the quality of teaching I'd say on my course was quite poor.
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You're right CLH that Tugendghat goes today. He's the lady of the (generally) moderates left in the race, although he has a switch that turns him into an uncontrolled lunatic whenever anyone mentions "war" so maybe it's for the best that he won't be in charge.
Of the others, there are four believers in failed far right economics, one of whom is determined to paint herself as Thatcher Reduce but without quite knowing what that means, one who is determined to fight a thermonuclear Culture War that no-one really cares about and one who is so lacking in any content that she doesn't even want us to talk about who is leader.
If this were an interview panel, the decision would be "None appointable. Re-advertise".
But given where we are, Sunak is the only one who looks remotely electable.
And the Tories will get hammered under him in 2024.
Tom knows that China wants to take over the world but realise he has to be a pragmatist
an old repost here
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/06/13/tom-tugendhat-british-mp-china-hates/
and a new one i have just found
https://qz.com/2007290/tom-tugendhat-the-politician-warning-of-chinas-cage-rattling/
As for Penny she could be dropped tomorrow (Lord Derby said she didn't do detail - so on that basis she is a seamless replacement for Boris :headbang: )
from Feb 2015 "Mordaunt’s headstrong attitude has occasionally left the party spin doctors in a flap."
https://web.archive.org/web/20190721115937/https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/esmagazine/all-aboard-with-penny-mordaunt-10023878.html
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No SS, for reasons I've explained before. I don't have off-street parking and can't do a regular at home charge.
For what it's worth, I have a hybrid that I get 75 to the gallon out of. We are getting a charging point installed at work, after which I'll be moving to a plug in hybrid.
None of that is the point though. It's not really about individual decisions. It's about having a political environment that makes making the right decisions a no brainer, because it's in your economic interests to make the right decision.
My point is that so many people, particularly politicians and TV pundits, are banging on all the time about climate change, and lecturing people like me, that no longer drive cars, to be more responsible, while they all continue to drive.
Hypocrisy.
No electric car and quite the global traveller (but doesn’t like to talk about it). Next he’ll be telling us his house isn’t insulated.