Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: tommy toes on July 20, 2022, 05:37:07 pm
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Couldn't be better for the Labour Party.
Sunak, who's fiscal policies hark back to Osborne. He seems to think that cutting public spending and tightening the purse strings is the way forward, after 12 years of proof that it isn't.
Or Truss, who's as mad as a box of frogs and like Sunak, is mired in Johnson's muck, as well as being a closet remainer; not to mention having all the charisma of a dead parrot.
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Good to see 2 new faces, untainted by the failures and law breaking of Johnson's previous Government, being given their chance.
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Whoever wins 2/3rds of Tory MP's didn't want them:
Cameron (2005) 45.5%
May (2016) 60.5%
Johnson (2019) 66.6%
Sunak (2022) 38.3%
Truss (2022) 31.6%
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Whoever wins 2/3rds of Tory MP's didn't want them:
Cameron (2005) 45.5%
May (2016) 60.5%
Johnson (2019) 66.6%
Sunak (2022) 38.3%
Truss (2022) 31.6%
It is what it is unfortunately.
Saying 2/3rds of Tory MP'd didn't want them is about as much use as saying over half of the electorate didn't want the party voted into power for however many years. Pointless.
Its now down to the Tory party members to decide who to make PM. Whatever we say about these two individuals the nation will get its say in the next 24months.
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A believer in Austerity Vs a believer in Monetarism.
Choose which failed, discredited, catastrophic previous Tory economic policy you prefer.
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Sunak has spent more than any previous chancellor hasn’t he? Hardly austerity…
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A believer in Austerity Vs a believer in Monetarism.
Choose which failed, discredited, catastrophic previous Tory economic policy you prefer.
You weren’t complaining when Sunak announced the furlough scheme that helped your business survive through covid.
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Sunak has spent more than any previous chancellor hasn’t he? Hardly austerity…
Circumstances. That wasn't a choice. The country would have fallen apart without furlough.
By instinct, every bone in his body wants to cut Govt spending. That was the core of the fall out with Johnson.
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Furlough and COVID had to be paid for. People were grateful to take months off work on 80% of their wages with no travelling to work costs
Now we’re getting over COVID and people are back to work there’s a lot of short memories now it has to be paid for
I know People are accusing him of making his wife more money and being out of touch because he’s wealthy. If he is or isn’t I don’t know
Personally I can’t see how it could have been handled better. Some people seem to forget that accounts have to be balanced
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Sunak has spent more than any previous chancellor hasn’t he? Hardly austerity…
Circumstances. That wasn't a choice. The country would have fallen apart without furlough.
By instinct, every bone in his body wants to cut Govt spending. That was the core of the fall out with Johnson.
Yet you commended him at the time. And you have used that commendation regularly since as ‘proof’ that you don’t have a blanket of hatred for everything the Conservatives do and credit them when they do make the right choices.
Now, because it suits your ridiculously biased agenda, there was never a choice to make!
You are embarrassingly pathetic.
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Sunak has spent more than any previous chancellor hasn’t he? Hardly austerity…
Circumstances. That wasn't a choice. The country would have fallen apart without furlough.
By instinct, every bone in his body wants to cut Govt spending. That was the core of the fall out with Johnson.
Yet you commended him at the time. And you have used that commendation regularly since as ‘proof’ that you don’t have a blanket of hatred for everything the Conservatives do and credit them when they do make the right choices.
Now, because it suits your ridiculously biased agenda, there was never a choice to make!
You are embarrassingly pathetic.
See this.
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Furlough and COVID had to be paid for. People were grateful to take months off work on 80% of their wages with no travelling to work costs
Now we’re getting over COVID and people are back to work there’s a lot of short memories now it has to be paid for
I know People are accusing him of making his wife more money and being out of touch because he’s wealthy. If he is or isn’t I don’t know
Personally I can’t see how it could have been handled better. Some people seem to forget that accounts have to be balanced
Phil
That's the root of the issue. It DOESN'T have to be paid for. Accounts DON'T need to be balanced when you're talking about Govt debt.
That is the lie that Sunak was spreading a year or so ago, when he said that he'd have to cut spending because we have to pay back what we borrowed.
That is absolute horse shit. It's 100 year out of date economics. What Governments need to do is to make sure that, over time, the economy grows faster than the debt. Do that and there's absolutely no need to EVER pay back a penny of the debt.
Try to cut the debt by cutting back spending and what happens is that the economy shrinks and the burden of debt gets even higher. If there's one lesson that should have been learned from the Austerity of a decade ago it's that. But Sunak seems determined to follow the same path all over again.
There's a historical example of this happening before.
In WWI, the Govt absolutely didn't want to run up large debts. It went against everything they believed. But the Chancellors gritted their teeth and borrowed billions to pay for the shells and the boats and the tanks.
They didn't believe that Govt spending was a potentially good thing. It was a necessary evil at the time.
After the War, they believed that the debt had to be paid back. And they savagely cut Govt spending. The result was an extended recession, 25% on the dole and the Govt debt actually went up!
That's the kind of mistake we may be heading into. Not as vicious as the early 1920s recession, but a totally unnecessary economic slowdown based on shite economics that sound sensible, but are actually totally wrong.
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Furlough and COVID had to be paid for. People were grateful to take months off work on 80% of their wages with no travelling to work costs
Now we’re getting over COVID and people are back to work there’s a lot of short memories now it has to be paid for
I know People are accusing him of making his wife more money and being out of touch because he’s wealthy. If he is or isn’t I don’t know
Personally I can’t see how it could have been handled better. Some people seem to forget that accounts have to be balanced
This is the result of looking at an economy like a bookkeeper and not as an economist.
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BST
I hear you and I disagree. We have different opinions on this
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Phil.
It's not me you're disagreeing with. It's the whole of economics.
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Different cheeks of the same WEF arse.
We're f**ked either way.
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This talk about paying back the debt and balancing the books is pie in the sky nonsense.
It's impossible and unnecessary in the medium term and trying to do that by Austerity has palpably failed.
That should be obvious to anyone, whatever party they support.
Austeriy has hampered growth over the whole period since 2010, yet Sunak seems not to have noticed, and have no doubt, he's committed to continuing with it.
If he wins then we're in for a sorry two years til the next election.
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The economy will crash anyway and then Sunak will bring his CBDC in.
Build back better! Also known as Problem, Reaction, Solution.
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Phil.
It's not me you're disagreeing with. It's the whole of economics.
Phil.
It's not me you're disagreeing with. It's the whole of economics.
Is this your tacit endorsement of Truss's longer term policy of paying back the built up debit?
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DD
How do you figure that out? We virtually never pay back Government debt. Because we don't need to. What matters is whether you can service the interest in the debt. And whether your economy grows so that the debt becomes smaller as a proportion of our wealth.
In 1919, Govt debt was £7.5bn. That was 140% of GDP. The Govt tried to pay it back by cutting spending. The economy tanked. In 1924 the debt was still £7.5bn but because the economy had crashed that was 160% of GDP.
In 1950, after WWII, the debt was £26bn. That was over 200% of GDP. But for the next half century, instead of trying to pay it back, we borrowed more and used that to build the economy.
By 2000, the debt was £340bn. But because the economy had grown beyond recognition, that was 30% of GDP.
That's how it works. It's nothing like a personal debt. You try to cut Govt debt, what happens is you crash the economy and the debt grows as a proportion of our wealth. We knew all that in 2010, but the Tories did it anyway because that was what they needed to tell people to get elected in 2010.
I assume Sunak knows that. Because he'd be economically illiterate if he didn't. And I don't think he is. But he's planning the same approach anyway. Because it's in the Tories' blood. They don't have any alternative that doesn't admit the other side were right all along.
Truss? Christ knows whether she understands it. She's proposing to repeat the batshit monetarist approach of the early 1980s that Thatcher championed for a couple of years before she realised it was moonshine and shelved it.
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Sunak will run the economy into the ground to try and bring inflation down.
There are question marks about the competence of Truss. She can't wait to "hit the ground" apparently.
It's an incredibly difficult choice but if I were voting, I think I'd go for Sunak and hope he will react to the onset of recession that is coming.
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Why don't we just put BST in charge?
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DD
How do you figure that out? We virtually never pay back Government debt. Because we don't need to. What matters is whether you can service the interest in the debt. And whether your economy grows so that the debt becomes smaller as a proportion of our wealth.
In 1919, Govt debt was £7.5bn. That was 140% of GDP. The Govt tried to pay it back by cutting spending. The economy tanked. In 1924 the debt was still £7.5bn but because the economy had crashed that was 160% of GDP.
In 1950, after WWII, the debt was £26bn. That was over 200% of GDP. But for the next half century, instead of trying to pay it back, we borrowed more and used that to build the economy.
By 2000, the debt was £340bn. But because the economy had grown beyond recognition, that was 30% of GDP.
That's how it works. It's nothing like a personal debt. You try to cut Govt debt, what happens is you crash the economy and the debt grows as a proportion of our wealth. We knew all that in 2010, but the Tories did it anyway because that was what they needed to tell people to get elected in 2010.
I assume Sunak knows that. Because he'd be economically illiterate if he didn't. And I don't think he is. But he's planning the same approach anyway. Because it's in the Tories' blood. They don't have any alternative that doesn't admit the other side were right all along.
Truss? Christ knows whether she understands it. She's proposing to repeat the batshit monetarist approach of the early 1980s that Thatcher championed for a couple of years before she realised it was moonshine and shelved it.
Im no economist but don't governments have to borrow on the markets by issuing bonds, these bonds will have a maturity date. Who picks up the tab for these if its not the nations taxpayers?
We obviously allow great chunks of interest to be consumed by inflation over time but at the end of the day an outstanding debt cannot be just hid off the nations balance sheet and has to be paid for, we cant just rely on the rise in GDP to swallow it whole,
Is this not where you end up with Mozambique dollars for a currency?
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DD.
Don't take my word for it. Look at history.
In £ terms our national debt increased about 14-fold in the second half of the 20th century. But our economy grew about 80-fold.
So. Higher debt. Far less of a debt problem.
What really matters is whether you can pay the interest on your debt. But generally this isn't a first order problem for Governments.
In 1950, the interest on our debt took about 5p of every £ we earned. In 2000 it was less than 2p. Today, even with a much higher debt after the GFC and COVID, and after a decade of truly awful economic growth, mainly due to Austerity, it is still only about 4p. Many of us take in mortgages with FAR higher interest repayments as a percentage of our income. When I took out my first mortgage 30 years ago, the interest payments were nearly 30% of my take home pay.
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Why don't we just put BST in charge?
typical tory, wants to make british summer time user pays
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When people talk about what something cost x number of years ago they never seem to factor in how the value of £1 has changed over time.
I took out my first mortgage in 1974 and the repayment amount was more than half of my take home pay.
My wife was working though and so between us we could afford to pay it and manage to live.
The value of £100 in 1974 equates to over £1150 now.
Telling people that the national debt or GDP has risen from x to y doesn’t tell the whole story but it fits the rhetoric.
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Hound 4p in the £ in 1950, is the same as 4p in the £ today or in 1348.
So what's the point of your post?
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https://www.ig.com/uk/bonds/what-are-government-bonds
How government bonds work. Borrowed for a set period of time etc etc
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DD
How do you figure that out? We virtually never pay back Government debt. Because we don't need to. What matters is whether you can service the interest in the debt. And whether your economy grows so that the debt becomes smaller as a proportion of our wealth.
In 1919, Govt debt was £7.5bn. That was 140% of GDP. The Govt tried to pay it back by cutting spending. The economy tanked. In 1924 the debt was still £7.5bn but because the economy had crashed that was 160% of GDP.
In 1950, after WWII, the debt was £26bn. That was over 200% of GDP. But for the next half century, instead of trying to pay it back, we borrowed more and used that to build the economy.
By 2000, the debt was £340bn. But because the economy had grown beyond recognition, that was 30% of GDP.
That's how it works. It's nothing like a personal debt. You try to cut Govt debt, what happens is you crash the economy and the debt grows as a proportion of our wealth. We knew all that in 2010, but the Tories did it anyway because that was what they needed to tell people to get elected in 2010.
I assume Sunak knows that. Because he'd be economically illiterate if he didn't. And I don't think he is. But he's planning the same approach anyway. Because it's in the Tories' blood. They don't have any alternative that doesn't admit the other side were right all along.
Truss? Christ knows whether she understands it. She's proposing to repeat the batshit monetarist approach of the early 1980s that Thatcher championed for a couple of years before she realised it was moonshine and shelved it.
Im no economist but don't governments have to borrow on the markets by issuing bonds, these bonds will have a maturity date. Who picks up the tab for these if its not the nations taxpayers?
We obviously allow great chunks of interest to be consumed by inflation over time but at the end of the day an outstanding debt cannot be just hid off the nations balance sheet and has to be paid for, we cant just rely on the rise in GDP to swallow it whole,
Is this not where you end up with Mozambique dollars for a currency?
When the an individual bond matures, the government pays out. That is how the interest is paid on the National Debt. It doesn't reduce the National Debt because new government bonds are issued to provide the money to pay the matured ones.
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Christ, where do you begin with that Truss interview on R4 this morning?
She wanted Johnson to remain as PM.
She says cutting taxes will bring down inflation.
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Presumably by cutting VAT! :silly:
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Truss cite Patrick Minford as her economic expert.
God f**king help us if she is serious.
He's only had the ear of 1 PM. That was Thatcher in the early 1980s. The result was 15% interest rates, 4 million on the dole and the destruction of much of our industry.
Minford's fantastic plan to take advantage of Brexit was for us to unilaterallly do away with all import tariffs. He casually noted in an aside that this would probably finish off what industry we have left, and would require the "managed decline" of Northern cities.
He is a maverick in economics circles. Way outside the mainstream. But your likely next PM is listening to him.
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I think Sunak should make his wife pay back the £600k± in VAT plus the furlough money of her failed businesses before he leaves the Chancellors job.
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Truss also blithely says the last 20 years of economic policy haven't delivered growth, and it has been the fault of the economic consensus.
This is either breathtakingly ignorant, or one of the most deliberately misleading things I've ever heard from a senior politician.
1) Growth was trotting along just fine 15-20 years ago. A steady 2-3% per annum, which was the long term average.
2) Yes, it took a big hit in the GFC, but that happens in big recessions. The key is: how do you get back on course.
3) The huge consensus of economic opinion was that we should prioritise Govt support to the economy to get things firing again. The Tory Govt of which SHE was a f**king member, totally ignored that opinion and went for balls out Austerity. THAT is why our growth has been so awful for the past decade. Now she's doing a Big Brother job, re-writing the past to blame other people.
Truss would be a Godsend for Labour. She would be out of her depth as PM and she would lead the Tories to disaster in 2024. But I hope to God that we don't find out. Because with what she's been saying on the economy, she would wreak havoc on us between now and then.
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She, Truss is being written off as bonkers
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The problem we have is, in the main that gas and oil have become more scarce, thanks to the actions of Russia and the sanctions the west has applied.
So unless we find more affordable energy to replace it (OPEC isn't being helpful, I wonder if they can actually meet the demand anyway?) , then I can't see that much can be done about inflation. It's imported and it's out of our hands. We'll see the truth of this in October when energy prices are raised again and that feeds another hike in inflation.
If Truss cuts taxes that will be inflationary. If Sunak does nothing much then we're heading for recession anyway.
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The main problem is we have two people more concerned with their own futures now, and the future of the tory party at the next election rather than the future if the country and those in it, it all sounds a bit familiar really.
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Well Gordon Brown is about the most selfless politician I can think of and his suggestion is a coordinated International plan for growth. He can see inflation and recession is coming simultaneously.
But this plan amounts to an international response to get energy prices down... With the geopolitical situation as it is, that's not easy.
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I think Sunak should make his wife pay back the £600k± in VAT plus the furlough money of her failed businesses before he leaves the Chancellors job.
You do know he is no longer Chancellor, Nudga?
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There's an unpleasant but unavoidable fact associated with the increase in external prices (external as in things we import to the UK, like energy, semi-conductors, some foods, some manufactured goods).
If there is less supply of those goods, then either buyers fight more for them and the price goes up (inflation) or we suppress demand for them by consuming less which means our economic activity goes down (recession or at the very least, suppressed growth).
There's basically no getting away from that. Either way, we as a nation are effectively poorer than we thought we were.
There's a case that you can ride this out if you think the price rise will be temporary by Govt borrowing more and giving it to people to help them out. That's effectively borrowing a bit from your future wealth to get you over an immediate problem. But if you do that, you should be targeting the support at people who really need it because they will go under otherwise. Better off people can pull their belts a bit. What you don't want to do is to massively encourage wider consumption that will push up prices generally.
Truss's tax cuts are the very worst way of dealing with this problem. They basically give money mainly to people who are precisely the ones best able to cope. So it will subsidise holidays and new cars and expensive clothes and house prices. All the things that will push up inflation generally.
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They are forcasting four years of elevated inflation now.. It's not temporary and really it's very difficult to predict just how long this will go on for. The Ukraine war seems to have no foreseeable end. Covid is still rife and China keeps locking down in response.
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Truss also blithely says the last 20 years of economic policy haven't delivered growth, and it has been the fault of the economic consensus.
This is either breathtakingly ignorant, or one of the most deliberately misleading things I've ever heard from a senior politician.
1) Growth was trotting along just fine 15-20 years ago. A steady 2-3% per annum, which was the long term average.
2) Yes, it took a big hit in the GFC, but that happens in big recessions. The key is: how do you get back on course.
3) The huge consensus of economic opinion was that we should prioritise Govt support to the economy to get things firing again. The Tory Govt of which SHE was a f**king member, totally ignored that opinion and went for balls out Austerity. THAT is why our growth has been so awful for the past decade. Now she's doing a Big Brother job, re-writing the past to blame other people.
Truss would be a Godsend for Labour. She would be out of her depth as PM and she would lead the Tories to disaster in 2024. But I hope to God that we don't find out. Because with what she's been saying on the economy, she would wreak havoc on us between now and then.
Never mind, Ms Abbott will sort everything out afterwards.
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Dominic Cummings says Truss is "as mad as a box of snakes"
He claims Johnson is backing her, in the hope that when things inevitably go wrong it will open the way for his return.
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I think Sunak should make his wife pay back the £600k± in VAT plus the furlough money of her failed businesses before he leaves the Chancellors job.
You do know he is no longer Chancellor, Nudga?
Yeah, I did forget he'd already stood down.
Does my point still not stand?
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Well it could BST in some ways. An NI cut for example would save businesses (assume 1% on both parts) as well as boosting peoples incomes. That 1% can be passed straight on to customers and bring prices down. That's not an insignificant amount. Cut fuel duty, similar thing happens. Of course obvious question how do you pay for that given the wage growth demands of the public? Perhaps the fiscal headroom built could be used more widely.
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It will be an interesting ride for the next two years. Both have little chance of an election win. So it's all about doing their thing meanwhile.
Sunak is one king of slime. He'll be giving more money to his matesand then doing as much to prop up an elitist economy, bringing in measures that will take a long time to unravel. He's a souless classic Tory arse. He's the safe bet, but also a sure loser when it comes to electability.
Truss is bonkers, kinda from the same school of chaos leadership as Johnson just less Eton. Also has the marraige instability of Johnson. That in itself might be appealing to the public. Anyone pulling her strings is going to have a hard time keeping her in line but then these real rulers of our country have their ways. I'd be very surprised if she doesn't win the leadership, and will believe in winning the next election.
If Starmer can't destroy either of these he should walk the plank.
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Doesn't work like that though BFYP. That's an accounting view of prices, not a macroeconomic one.
Inflationary pressure occurs when there is too much money actively seeking too few goods. That tends to manifest itself as an increase in prices, but it doesn't necessarily follow that a decrease in prices results in lower inflation.
A tax cut or an increase in Govt spending puts more money into circulation. So, by definition, it is adding to the amount of money chasing the goods. If suppliers can expand their capacity, that's fine - the increase in money will result in the market seeing more goods available to be bought, as suppliers chase that extra money. The inflationary pressure results in more economic activity than would otherwise have occurred.
If someone tries to grab that money through putting up prices, another supplier will increase output at the same or lower unit cost and undercut them. That's how you deal with a demand problem - you create demand by getting money into the economy. (1).
But we currently have a supply problem. The key goods (food, manufactures, energy) are in limited supply. There's plenty of demand. The problem is that demand cannot be satisfied. And the way the market deals with that is that suppliers put up prices. Because they can charge more for each f the limited things they sell.
Sure, a reduction in NI would reduce a company's costs. But why should they pass that onto the consumer? There's no shortage of demand, so the prices can stay high. Or, if some producers do drop their prices to reflect the tax cuts, that just leaves more money in consumers' pockets to bid up the price of other goods. The inflationary pressure is there and is always increased by the addition of money into circulation.
(1) This is what WAS happening before the Austerity insanity - The Brown Govt cut taxes and spent more to put money into circulation to boost demand that had been hammered by the GFC. When the Tories came to power, they immediately increased VAT and cut Govt spending drastically - the result was that demand was strangled and we had three years of flatlining.
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Dominic Cummings says Truss is "as mad as a box of snakes"
He claims Johnson is backing her, in the hope that when things inevitably go wrong it will open the way for his return.
I'm amazed that Raab can insult anyone. Deffo people with Glass houses with him
The sea was closed. Plank
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Truss has opened up a 24 point lead over Sunak in the early opinion poll .
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Truss has opened up a 24 point lead over Sunak in the early opinion poll .
Sunak just been interviewed by Andrew Marr on LBC.
'The favorite name for you among Conservative voters is Stabber Sunak because they believe you brought down Johnson. How do you expect to win them over?'
He has two chances. Slim and not a.
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I think Sunak should make his wife pay back the £600k± in VAT plus the furlough money of her failed businesses before he leaves the Chancellors job.
You do know he is no longer Chancellor, Nudga?
Ha yes Browns Bottom! And the raid on the Uk Pension funds great precursors of the 2008 Collapse!
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They are forcasting four years of elevated inflation now.. It's not temporary and really it's very difficult to predict just how long this will go on for. The Ukraine war seems to have no foreseeable end. Covid is still rife and China keeps locking down in response.
Folks are not being helped by the Woke Policies generated by the Left wing elitist minority's controlling EU policies, you also have the actions of the Crackpot US government, the likes of Bidens green Policies shutting down an oil and Gas Pipeline which would have enabled a further 1.5 Million barrels of oil and Gas to be shipped to refineries in the American midwest, The Canadian Government can't even export Oil and Gas to us as their reserves are in the West and they never bothered building any infrastructure to enable export to Europe, then you have years of mismanaging their foreign policy towards Left socialist Venezuela to such an extent that the country fell on its knees and the population had to leave en masses to avoid starvation. The Oil production infrastructure is so poor that they can barely produce 600,000 barrels per day that's the country with the largest oil reserves in the world, between them Canada and Venezuela have nearly 500 billion barrels of oil, 6 times more than Russia! The fat cats in Brussels have sleep walked into that crisis throwing all their eggs into one basket! Things are so bad Biden has had to pay a visit to that Pariah state Saudi Arabia and virtually kiss backsides to try and get them to increase production.
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Yep sprot much rather have nutjobs running Austerity as an economic cure-all wouldn't you? in fact it would be good for you to show what has happened economically over the past 12 years or so that you would repeat. What we could be doing with those hundreds of billions lost to brexit aye?
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'' ............. This is rich, in every sense of the word. Raising taxes on big American corporations and the wealthy would not fuel inflation. It would slow inflation by reducing demand – and do it in a way that wouldn’t hurt lower-income Americans (such as those living in, say, West Virginia).
Manchin’s state is one of the poorest in America. West Virginia ranks 45th in education, 47th in healthcare, 48th in overall prosperity and 50th in infrastructure.
Tax revenue from corporations and billionaires could be used to rebuild West Virginia, among other places that need investment around America .......... ''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/20/joe-manchin-democratic-party-kick-out
A bit more of this which is a state based levelling up suggestion from Robert Reich who appears to have a bit of a grasp of economics, is sunak brave enough?
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Whilst Canada and Venezula have large reserves of oil, in both cases it's tight oil that is difficult to extract. In these times of high oil prices, the potential is there but there is the risk prices may fall back again. So how much effort is being made to ramp up production?
The big problem Europe faces right now is the gas supply, which it is currently heavily dependant on Russia. Europe doesn't yet have the infrastructure to import the vast quantities of LNG required. How long will it take to build this infrastructure?
Whilst gas remains scarce in Europe, energy bills are going to remain high. Gas is also used to manufacture artificial fertiliser, so we can expect high food prices too. The heatwave across the continent won't be helping agriculture either.
Saudi and OPEC aren't riding to the rescue, though all has fallen back a bit lately, largely on fears of a slowdown in China.
Anyway, all this demonstrates that a large part of the inflation we are feeling is coming from international events that are largely beyond the control of Westminster.
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BST your post was a bit too generic and I'm fully aware of supply/demand. It isn't one size fits all is it? Certain parts of the economy will see significant demand falls as disposable income drops and cutting the expenditure and price of these goods would be a huge benefit to those companies. Companies will pass it on because they want to see largely increases in sales, again though that will be situational. A big factor in that is confidence, consumers will return to bigger companies and staple buys when they see a spending squeeze and discretionary spending will drop.
Perhaps the answer to cut the costs is to target it more where it needs it, IE fuel, energy and the areas of the economy with much higher elasticity within it's pricing where the discretionary spend creeps in (who's buying a fireplace right now for example?)
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BFYP
Sorry to hammer this, but I'm afraid you are just misunderstanding how inflation works. It's really, really simple on the macro scale.
If there is an increase in the amount of money available, and no increase in the amount of goods available to be bought, the price of those goods goes up. That's Macroeconomics101. You're getting tied down in a lower level, where you can make a case that in a specific sub-sector, yes prices can in theory be reduced by taxes being reduced. But that cannot apply to the economy as a whole.
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Missing a trick here, the government and treasury could save a fortune by simply employing BST as PM, Chancellor, Business Secretary, Home Secretary, Foreign Secretary, Environment Secretary and Covid Minister.
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He could have BobG in his cabinet as Minister For Trying To Sound Smart.
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If a thing is scarce, like gas, then people who need it will bid up the price to secure a supply,. Give people more spare cash and they can afford to spend more to outbid the competition. It's that simple.
Truss is proposing to give people more cash but the supply of things they need is constrained. Inflation, right there.
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How long does Rich-ie or Truss-tless have to be in position before a no confidence vote can be initiated to get Johnson back into the running?
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I don't think Johnson is in a hurry to get back in power. Sometime like a year to 6 months before the next GE would be the right ball park giving him rest and family time. Meanwhile let Sunak/Truss fall apart as PM and leader of the shambles of the Tories. I can see Johnson as being the teflon kid, and the nly likely Tory to be effective at opposing Labour in a GE.
Sick innit!
-
Rumour is Johnson is telling his mates that he'll be back like Churchill.
I've just sat down and closed my eyes and tried to imagine the lack of self awareness behind that claim. And I can't get close.
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Is it true there is a petition amongst the Tory faithfull to keep him in position?
-
There is still time to get your submission in .................
''On 21 April 2022, the House of Commons passed a motion tabled by the leader of the Labour Party, calling for the prime minister, Boris Johnson, to be investigated by the Commons Privileges Committee for having potentially misled parliament over ‘partygate’ allegations. Following the closure of the Metropolitan Police inquiry into ‘partygate’, as well as the publication of the Gray Report, the committee will begin its investigation.
This explainer sets out how the investigation will work, and the kinds of questions that the investigation will need to address''
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/privileges-committee-investigation
I've put several in under names such as bullet, tyke, albie, pud .............
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Is it true there is a petition amongst the Tory faithfull to keep him in position?
Tory grassroots warned of Trumpian disaster.
Senior Tories including a Cabinet minister are getting very worried about the Bring Back Boris campaign, now backed by nearly 7,000 members
https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1550491539486703616
Somebody is planting these stories in the papers - and its probably not Dominic Cummings.
-
It's all here
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/choppers-politics/id1213415786
-
Is it true there is a petition amongst the Tory faithfull to keep him in position?
Tory grassroots warned of Trumpian disaster.
Senior Tories including a Cabinet minister are getting very worried about the Bring Back Boris campaign, now backed by nearly 7,000 members
https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1550491539486703616
Somebody is planting these stories in the papers - and its probably not Dominic Cummings.
So let me get this right.
The Parliamentary Tory party made a decision on behalf of the country.
A bunch of hard-line Brexiteers don't like that and think there should be a People's Vote to see if that's what the People really want. (People in this case being Tory party members.)
Anyone want to point out the irony to them?
-
Sat' headline, the Times
"Britain facing a national emergency, says Sunak''
''Leadership hopeful warns of crises in the economy, NHS and over illegal migration''
A bit richi considering 12 years of tories don't you think? and the last item a bit of red meat for the red wall.
the Express has polled tyke and found that Truss would beat Starmer ......... hehe
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If Truss wins Labour should build up the brainwashing exercise along the lines of "Never Truss the Tories" with the background pic of a grinning Johnson toasting us with a drink at the parties.
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Truss cite Patrick Minford as her economic expert.
God f**king help us if she is serious.
He's only had the ear of 1 PM. That was Thatcher in the early 1980s. The result was 15% interest rates, 4 million on the dole and the destruction of much of our industry.
Minford's fantastic plan to take advantage of Brexit was for us to unilaterallly do away with all import tariffs. He casually noted in an aside that this would probably finish off what industry we have left, and would require the "managed decline" of Northern cities.
He is a maverick in economics circles. Way outside the mainstream. But your likely next PM is listening to him.
''Removing all trade tariffs and barriers would help generate an annual £135bn uplift to the UK economy, according to a group of pro-Brexit economists.
A "hard" Brexit is "economically much superior to soft", argues Prof Patrick Minford, lead author of a report from Economists for Free Trade.
He says eliminating tariffs, either within free trade deals or unilaterally, would deliver huge gains''
yeah woo hoo yeah whoop .............. etc
But wait ................................
''Brexit worse for the UK economy than Covid pandemic, OBR says
Fiscal watchdog says Brexit would cut GDP by around 4% long term, while Covid impacts would hit output by a further 2%''
Approx 80Bn/year
yah boo hiss poo ............. etc
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-40972776
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/28/brexit-worse-for-the-uk-economy-than-covid-pandemic-obr-says
-
Patrick Minford - the bloke who said we should use Brexit to run down manufacturing and farming in the UK
-
Looks like he's getting his wish.
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Hobson's choice but the Tory membership are right to be favouring Truss IMO.
Sunak outwardly appears slicker, smarter, saner, less extreme and more prime ministerial.
But he's proven himself to be economically clueless as Chancellor - only a fool would announce tax rises during a strong economic recovery or maintain these rises as inflation soars causing a cost of living crisis.
The economy would be in for 2 (never mind 7) disastrous years of slow, anaemic growth with his high tax, low spend mantra.
-
Only a more economically clueless person would reduce taxes during high inflation.
-
Hobson's choice but the Tory membership are right to be favouring Truss IMO.
Sunak outwardly appears slicker, smarter, saner, less extreme and more prime ministerial.
But he's proven himself to be economically clueless as Chancellor - only a fool would announce tax rises during a strong economic recovery or maintain these rises as inflation soars causing a cost of living crisis.
The economy would be in for 2 (never mind 7) disastrous years of slow, anaemic growth with his high tax, low spend mantra.
You have to factor in who the two candidates are trying to appeal to Branton .
It's not the electorate but 180k probably elderly and very well off white males .
To say it's a very thin demographic is an understatement .
Tax cuts to this demographic works the same way as £1.80 a pint in Wombwell does around my neck of the woods .
The white women trying to resurrect Thatcher promising tax cuts is a sure fire winner with this demographic .
I'm afraid the more conservative brown man ain't got a chance .
I'm saying how it is by the way and not my personal view so take the above as it's meant .
-
Something a lot have not taken into consideration is Richie if elected leader could take votes away from labour with an Indian following, and in some inner cities that's a lot of votes, a lot that historically have voted labour.
I think the Indian community would quite like one of their own as the Prime Minister of the UK, and it might just do the UK good.
-
Given the rivalry and dislike between a lot of Indian and Pakistani communities they might also lose a lot of votes. We will have to wait and see but neither option fills me with any hope.
-
Something a lot have not taken into consideration is Richie if elected leader could take votes away from labour with an Indian following, and in some inner cities that's a lot of votes, a lot that historically have voted labour.
I think the Indian community would quite like one of their own as the Prime Minister of the UK, and it might just do the UK good.
I agree with Selby. As do the ex-BNP, Britain First, NF members who joined the Tory Party to get Johnson elected. I am sure with their years of anti-Asian attacks they will be right behind him.
-
Something a lot have not taken into consideration is Richie if elected leader could take votes away from labour with an Indian following, and in some inner cities that's a lot of votes, a lot that historically have voted labour.
I think the Indian community would quite like one of their own as the Prime Minister of the UK, and it might just do the UK good.
I agree with Selby. As do the ex-BNP, Britain First, NF members who joined the Tory Party to get Johnson elected. I am sure with their years of anti-Asian attacks they will be right behind him.
Absolute baloney, do you have evidence that far right elements joined the Tory party to enable Johnson to get elected?
We're talking about Johnson, who could quite seamlessly fit into the LibDems or the centre right Labour party without any stitching showing.
-
Johnson far right? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
https://youtu.be/nKUGSlv0Bo8
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Something a lot have not taken into consideration is Richie if elected leader could take votes away from labour with an Indian following, and in some inner cities that's a lot of votes, a lot that historically have voted labour.
I think the Indian community would quite like one of their own as the Prime Minister of the UK, and it might just do the UK good.
I agree with Selby. As do the ex-BNP, Britain First, NF members who joined the Tory Party to get Johnson elected. I am sure with their years of anti-Asian attacks they will be right behind him.
Absolute baloney, do you have evidence that far right elements joined the Tory party to enable Johnson to get elected?
We're talking about Johnson, who could quite seamlessly fit into the LibDems or the centre right Labour party without any stitching showing.
Yup:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-far-right-extremists-join-conservatives-support-britain-first-a9252201.html
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/28/far-right-group-britain-first-says-5000-members-joined-tories-11970687/
https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/local-council/bnp-dennis-pearce-backs-norfolk-conservative-candidate-james-wild-1483564
As recently as last week:
https://twitter.com/breeallegretti/status/1549100073241427969?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
-
Sunak, Truss, or Keith in 2024.
Get your ringside tickets for the circus show. Chipperfields will have nothing on any of these 3.
-
Something a lot have not taken into consideration is Richie if elected leader could take votes away from labour with an Indian following, and in some inner cities that's a lot of votes, a lot that historically have voted labour.
I think the Indian community would quite like one of their own as the Prime Minister of the UK, and it might just do the UK good.
I agree with Selby. As do the ex-BNP, Britain First, NF members who joined the Tory Party to get Johnson elected. I am sure with their years of anti-Asian attacks they will be right behind him.
Absolute baloney, do you have evidence that far right elements joined the Tory party to enable Johnson to get elected?
We're talking about Johnson, who could quite seamlessly fit into the LibDems or the centre right Labour party without any stitching showing.
Yup:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-far-right-extremists-join-conservatives-support-britain-first-a9252201.html
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/28/far-right-group-britain-first-says-5000-members-joined-tories-11970687/
https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/local-council/bnp-dennis-pearce-backs-norfolk-conservative-candidate-james-wild-1483564
As recently as last week:
https://twitter.com/breeallegretti/status/1549100073241427969?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Far right group looses support and "claims" they have all defected to the Tories?
laughable, if they defected then they must be well cheesed off as this Tory party is slotted in between the LibDems and the Labour center right.
We even have Keith poaching tips off the Tory manifesto, not alot of difference between the lot of them.
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If Johnson joined the Labour party it'd be like Harry Kane signing for Scunthorpe United!
-
EXCLUSIVE **
Boris Johnson has said he does not want to resign and will stay on if the membership backs him
The PM told former treasurer @peteratcmc over lunch at Chequers on Friday he wishes he could "wipe away" his resignation.
https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1551628844137820162
-
EXCLUSIVE **
Boris Johnson has said he does not want to resign and will stay on if the membership backs him
The PM told former treasurer @peteratcmc over lunch at Chequers on Friday he wishes he could "wipe away" his resignation.
https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1551628844137820162
Jesus wept. How does he think he'd carry on when the whole government walks out again?
-
Sunak, Truss, or Keith in 2024.
Get your ringside tickets for the circus show. Chipperfields will have nothing on any of these 3.
Whoa there SS.
Starmer isn’t guaranteed a place in that show yet.
-
Sunak, Truss, or Keith in 2024.
Get your ringside tickets for the circus show. Chipperfields will have nothing on any of these 3.
Whoa there SS.
Starmer isn’t guaranteed a place in that show yet.
What, do you mean his own party might go for the juggler and get rid?
-
The Tory thick and thin...
They've chosen the wrong pair here.
-
Sunak, Truss, or Keith in 2024.
Get your ringside tickets for the circus show. Chipperfields will have nothing on any of these 3.
Whoa there SS.
Starmer isn’t guaranteed a place in that show yet.
What, do you mean his own party might go for the juggler and get rid?
A better comedy act would be Diane Abbott balancing the books.
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The more I see the more I wonder how close would Liz truss' policies be to that of Keir Starmer. Doesn't feel a huge amount of difference between them.
I thought that debate tonight started poorly but improved as it went on. The formats aren't great though are they?
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Sunak, Truss, or Keith in 2024.
Get your ringside tickets for the circus show. Chipperfields will have nothing on any of these 3.
Whoa there SS.
Starmer isn’t guaranteed a place in that show yet.
What, do you mean his own party might go for the juggler and get rid?
A better comedy act would be Diane Abbott balancing the books. boobs that the contestant on the right and on the left make
Truss is now 3/1 On after Mr Interuption's performance
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Good to see all the 'neutrals' defending their protagonists and former ex pm with zeal +
-
EXCLUSIVE **
Boris Johnson has said he does not want to resign and will stay on if the membership backs him
The PM told former treasurer @peteratcmc over lunch at Chequers on Friday he wishes he could "wipe away" his resignation.
https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1551628844137820162
this is a bit rich from a 'man' that struggled to wipe his arse without assistance and covering the joint in shit, it's lucky for the country that Rasputin wasn't still around during his premiership I guess.
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The head to head debate .........
''There was only one direct question on the practical consequences of leaving the EU in Monday’s discussion. The candidates were asked whether the current tailbacks of traffic at Kentish ports are a consequence of Brexit. The correct answer is yes. They both said no''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/25/truss-v-sunak-a-sorry-spectacle-of-playground-bragging-from-a-party-without-a-purpose
this tells everyone what they need to know about them, that they will lie for expedience
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If Johnson joined the Labour party it'd be like Harry Kane signing for Scunthorpe United!
More like Kane signing for St Helens.
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Good to see all the 'neutrals' defending their protagonists and former ex pm with zeal +
Utter gobbledegook and a total failure to understand semantics, once again. Who are the protagonists? Sunak and Truss? If so, who's defending them?
If by "former ex pm" (more gobbledegook), you mean Johnson, who's defending him on this thread?
-
He makes it up as he goes along SS.
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I didn't watch the latest debate did someone say something that made sense or was truthful?
-
Good to see all the 'neutrals' defending their protagonists and former ex pm with zeal +
Utter gobbledegook and a total failure to understand semantics, once again. Who are the protagonists? Sunak and Truss? If so, who's defending them?
If by "former ex pm" (more gobbledegook), you mean Johnson, who's defending him on this thread?
Use your noggin Steve, look for the ones desperately diverting the conversation towards labour, oh and try to dampen down the faux outrage bit, it tends lo lose it's effectiveness. hehe
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Sunak announce free electricity, food and petrol whilst truss wants all those that didn't attend private school locked up.
-
I didn't watch the latest debate did someone say something that made sense or was truthful?
I doubt it , they probably learned from Keith that it's not absolutely necessary to tell the truth in order to win the party leadership .
-
Sunak is actually very intelligent. But Christ he has to say some cringingly f**king stupid things to try to attract support from Tory members.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Samfr/status/1553285942538125313
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Sunak lost a few days ago with the U turn on tax. In fact he had already lost when he was nominated because I don't believe the Tory membership were ever ready to make an individual with Indian heritage PM.
-
https://www.news18.com/news/world/rishi-sunaks-race-to-uk-post-excites-many-amid-an-ardent-immigrant-history-indians-videshi-dreams-5568493.html
According to a report in The Guardian, Indian migration in the UK then happened in two significant waves. The first was in the late 1940s and 50s, when migrants were recruited from India to fill up labour shortages in the UK by successive governments. Working in foundries and manufacturing, they were involved in the Britain’s anti-racist and labour union movements. To this day, these communities are disproportionately working class and Labour voting, the report said.
The second wave took place in the 60s and 70s when the Indian-origin “twice migrants” arrived in the UK after being expelled from Uganda, Kenya and Tanzania. These migrants belonged to the rich merchant class in the African countries and despite accounting for a miniscule percentage of the population, owned a large share of the countries’ private non-agricultural assets. When they migrated to the UK, they brought a significant amount of wealth with them. Sunak, Patel and the Attorney General Suella Braverman, are descendants of these migrants.
that's 3 of them !!!
and we have all been led to believe they (Sunaks family) arrived virtually with the clothes they were wearing
I don't think Patel nor Braverman "peddled" the mistruthes "Agent India "has ,portraying a family arriving with sod all
and he will continue to reconfigure facts In Johnsonian style
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Sunak taking a mauling from Andrew Neil .
https://youtu.be/SOWH-N1p8os
-
Sunak, Truss, or Keith in 2024.
Get your ringside tickets for the circus show. Chipperfields will have nothing on any of these 3.
Whoa there SS.
Starmer isn’t guaranteed a place in that show yet.
What, do you mean his own party might go for the juggler and get rid?
A better comedy act would be Diane Abbott balancing the books.
I seem to remember you telling us all that you couldn't balance the books in your own business hound? is that funny?
-
Sunak, Truss, or Keith in 2024.
Get your ringside tickets for the circus show. Chipperfields will have nothing on any of these 3.
Whoa there SS.
Starmer isn’t guaranteed a place in that show yet.
What, do you mean his own party might go for the juggler and get rid?
A better comedy act would be Diane Abbott balancing the books.
I seem to remember you telling us all that you couldn't balance the books in your own business hound? is that funny?
You have such a good recollection of things I never said.
-
Yep, you're
not wrong right again hound it must have been the other plumbers supplier on the forum blaming his customers for not paying their bills.
-
Something a lot have not taken into consideration is Richie if elected leader could take votes away from labour with an Indian following, and in some inner cities that's a lot of votes, a lot that historically have voted labour.
I think the Indian community would quite like one of their own as the Prime Minister of the UK, and it might just do the UK good.
Stabber Sunak! Disgraceful tweet btw from the Minister for Culture, Media & Sport who is supposed to be introducing a Bill to moderate online material that seeks to harass, bully or intimidate. Clearly not in Stabber's case:
https://twitter.com/RespectIsVital/status/1553503108277440515/photo/1
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I would think K-tel are killing it so to speak with knife sales to the tories atm
-
Yep, you're not wrong right again hound it must have been the other plumbers supplier on the forum blaming his customers for not paying their bills.
That is hardly not managing to balance the books Syd.
Almost every person who has a business supplying customers on an account basis will encounter bad debts at some time.
It is how you deal with it that matters.
You probably haven’t got a clue though how the real world works so I will excuse you your misunderstanding.
-
Something a lot have not taken into consideration is Richie if elected leader could take votes away from labour with an Indian following, and in some inner cities that's a lot of votes, a lot that historically have voted labour.
I think the Indian community would quite like one of their own as the Prime Minister of the UK, and it might just do the UK good.
Stabber Sunak! Disgraceful tweet btw from the Minister for Culture, Media & Sport who is supposed to be introducing a Bill to moderate online material that seeks to harass, bully or intimidate. Clearly not in Stabber's case:
https://twitter.com/RespectIsVital/status/1553503108277440515/photo/1
I wouldn't say disgraceful about the tweet, we are talking Dorries here, so more in bad taste. She doesn't know any better.
-
Something a lot have not taken into consideration is Richie if elected leader could take votes away from labour with an Indian following, and in some inner cities that's a lot of votes, a lot that historically have voted labour.
I think the Indian community would quite like one of their own as the Prime Minister of the UK, and it might just do the UK good.
Stabber Sunak! Disgraceful tweet btw from the Minister for Culture, Media & Sport who is supposed to be introducing a Bill to moderate online material that seeks to harass, bully or intimidate. Clearly not in Stabber's case:
https://twitter.com/RespectIsVital/status/1553503108277440515/photo/1
I wouldn't say disgraceful about the tweet, we are talking Dorries here, so more in bad taste. She doesn't know any better.
It would be in bad taste for you or me (or the guy who originallyd did it) to tweet. For a sitting Cabinet Minister who is regulating against people doing such things - it was disgraceful.
Agree with the second part of your post tho.
-
Of all the depths that our politics have sunk to recently, none is as deep as having that ball of foul nothingness as Culture Secretary.
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Yep, you're not wrong right again hound it must have been the other plumbers supplier on the forum blaming his customers for not paying their bills.
That is hardly not managing to balance the books Syd.
Almost every person who has a business supplying customers on an account basis will encounter bad debts at some time.
It is how you deal with it that matters.
You probably haven’t got a clue though how the real world works so I will excuse you your misunderstanding.
excuse me while I snigger at yet another earnest tale of why you are correct hound, you don't appear to get banter, it's a sort of contest of ideas and poking fun at each other, not a jaundiced fight to the death over every point.
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Yep, you're not wrong right again hound it must have been the other plumbers supplier on the forum blaming his customers for not paying their bills.
That is hardly not managing to balance the books Syd.
Almost every person who has a business supplying customers on an account basis will encounter bad debts at some time.
It is how you deal with it that matters.
You probably haven’t got a clue though how the real world works so I will excuse you your misunderstanding.
excuse me while I snigger at yet another earnest tale of why you are correct hound, you don't appear to get banter, it's a sort of contest of ideas and poking fun at each other, not a jaundiced fight to the death over every point.
You don’t do banter Syd only attempts at point scoring and if you think that having a laugh at a previous misfortune of someone is banter then I genuinely feel sorry for you.
-
Having a laugh at your expense hound, me ..........
-
Whatever, just go and trawl the internet for stories about the Tories.
-
that rhymes hound
-
Sunak, Truss, or Keith in 2024.
Get your ringside tickets for the circus show. Chipperfields will have nothing on any of these 3.
Whoa there SS.
Starmer isn’t guaranteed a place in that show yet.
What, do you mean his own party might go for the juggler and get rid?
A better comedy act would be Diane Abbott balancing the books.
I seem to remember you telling us all that you couldn't balance the books in your own business hound? is that funny?
Everyone likes a bit of banter it would seem hound ......
-
back on topic
the Guardian
''Truss says the attempt to rewrite parliamentary rules to try and support Owen Paterson was a mistake and she wouldn’t do it again, if similar circumstances repeated themelves. She adds that there needs to be more support for MPs''
hmmm
-
It's sounding like a Truss gov't will be even better than brexit
busadvertising ............. Better than Brexit
Vote truss vote tory
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Truss doubled down in hustings yesterday on her commitment from 2014 to curb solar farms.
Exactly what we need right now, Liz. Exactly.
She's clueless. Mind, Rishi is too. Both out of their depth.
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So that's the end of levelling up as a means of helping the post-industrial North catch up.
https://mobile.twitter.com/trussliz/status/1554173127025893380
Truss interprets it as broadband for farming villages. Plus she said last night that she'll pay for her tax cuts by slashing wages for civil servants outside London. So that should help other areas level up.
-
Differing pay already happens in the NHS where London workers get an enhanced salary to reflect living costs, it’s not particularly new
-
Not speaking for bst here but I thought it is the absurdity of what levelling up appears to mean to truss and the tories her target audience which is risible.
-
Differing pay already happens in the NHS where London workers get an enhanced salary to reflect living costs, it’s not particularly new
Yes but she's not talking about the London allowance. She's talking about cutting the basic pay of public sector workers outside London.
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Differing pay already happens in the NHS where London workers get an enhanced salary to reflect living costs, it’s not particularly new
Yes but she's not talking about the London allowance. She's talking about cutting the basic pay of public sector workers outside London.
She wanted to save £8.8 billion from the pay of all public sector workers outside of London. That would be a big pay cut for somebody.
Just announced she has scrapped it tho.
-
In a matter of around 24hrs truss has gone from an 11bn cost saving plan to a 2.2bn plan, unnamed sources in her campaign are saying that she may opt to bring forward the plastic bottle deposit scheme and use it to make up the shortfall.
-
Is that a record for a u turn?
-
Surprised she's not being treated for whiplash
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How the f*ck is Rishi not ahead out of the two? :laugh:
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Polls can’t be relied upon DO.
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Sorry. My mistake. Of COURSE I should have known that when Truss said she wanted to cut public sector workers' wages outside London, she didn't mean she wanted to cut public sector workers' wages outside London.
How very stupid of me.
-
Sunak, Truss or nobody!!!
The people who run the country and want to change GE voting regulations can't even organise their own leadership ballot!
Voting delayed after GCHQ warn plan to allow Tory members to vote, or change their vote, online is at risk of hacking. Paper ballots due to be posted yesterday have still not been sent out:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/08/02/tory-leadership-voting-delayed-gchq-hacking-warning/
-
A sports injury?
-
I've been saying for over a year now that whoever was Tory PM in the run up to the General Election faced a shocking economic situation.
The BoE has said today that inflation is predicted to peak at 13% (!!!) and that we will be in recession from October this year until Xmas 2023.
This is a 1970s style economic catastrophe. Whoever is PM is going to be very, very unpopular in 18 months time.
-
Meanwhile Truss said last night that this incoming recession "is not inevitable if bold action is taken".
I think that's what is technically known as a "hostage to fortune".
-
I've been saying for over a year now that whoever was Tory PM in the run up to the General Election faced a shocking economic situation.
The BoE has said today that inflation is predicted to peak at 13% (!!!) and that we will be in recession from October this year until Xmas 2023.
This is a 1970s style economic catastrophe. Whoever is PM is going to be very, very unpopular in 18 months time.
The BoE governor also said that the two biggest contributors to the rate rise are the pandemic and the war in Ukraine, but let’s not mention that.
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The Tory members in the Home Counties will love him for this
https://www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62436193.amp?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16597253269463&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com
I think he's a tw*t
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I said the tories aren't for sharing and wouldn't like levelling up one bit
fishy rishy?
“We inherited a bunch of formulas from Labour that shoved all the funding into deprived urban areas and that needed to be undone. I started the work of undoing that.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/05/video-emerges-of-rishi-sunak-admitting-to-taking-money-from-deprived-areas
Straight from the horses arse, labour were doing more than 12 years ago
-
All those working class people up here who voted for this lot need to listen to Sunak and hold their heads in shame.
-
Project Fear. They knew what they voted for and really wanted to see new flower beds and stone sets along the High Street in Royal Tunbridge Wells.
Vote Tory.
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By far the most surprising thing about this is that anyone should be surprised at it.
They are Tories. This is what they believe in. This is what they do.
One day, the people from round here who voted them in will realise what the point of Brexit was. To chuck them a bit of red meat while the Tories got on with doing what they do.
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How the f*ck is Rishi not ahead out of the two? :laugh:
Perhaps folk are not keen on millionaire tax dodgers.
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Going to be great having Truss as PM int it? There'll be a massive job boom because of the need to employ an army of people to interpret what the f**k she means every time she opens her mouth.
Last week she was saying she wanted to cut public sector wages outside London when she actually meant she didn't want to cut public sector wages outside London.
Last night she said she wasn't going to give "handouts" to help people survive the cost of living crisis.
https://www.itv.com/news/2022-08-05/truss-promises-tax-cuts-not-handouts-to-tackle-cost-of-living-crisis
But of course today, a colleague has clarified that Truss didn't say what she said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62453813
I really thought that Cameron, May and Johnson whereas bad as it could get as PM. Truss is going to blow that claim out the water.
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#allthesame.
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Yeah, I don't the the all the same hashtag is fair.
The problem we have here is, I don't think there are any good solutions. The nature of the problem is the UK cannot control these economic matters. We're getting poorer and it's a question of how to handle it.
Protecting the most vulnerable is the right thing to do. Explaining to the wider population that times are getting tough and there's nowt we can do about it. That is difficult.
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Except we are not 'all' getting poorer are we. Some people are doing very well. VERY well:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-30/pay-for-top-uk-executives-rebounded-to-pre-covid-levels-in-2021
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jan/07/ftse-bosses-pay-average-9am
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/16/weve-had-a-run-on-champagne-biggest-uk-banker-bonuses-since-financial-crash
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-10645745/Bankers-bonuses-drive-UK-pay-growth-Payouts-expected-soar.html
Millions become millionaire during pandemic:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57575077
The richest 10% of the country hold 43% of total wealth. The bottom 50% hold 9%.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/totalwealthingreatbritain/april2018tomarch2020
The answer to the cost of living crises is fairy simple. Whether or not any of the current candidates for PM dare take it - well....
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https://news.sky.com/story/sir-robert-buckland-becomes-first-cabinet-minister-to-swap-sides-as-he-backs-liz-truss-in-conservative-leadership-race-12671658
I think it’s time Sunak conceded now his own supporters are jumping ship to ensure they get a gig in the new Government.
Does he need the humiliation of a massive defeat in the Tory member’s vote on his CV?
The current inertia needs to end, they need to cut short their Summer holidays and get back to work because there’s one or two issues that need dealing with.
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Mug.
The vote is needed. When we end up with THE least qualified person ever as PM, we need to be able to remember that 100,000 old, wealthy, southern golf club bores were the one who imposed her on us.
Meanwhile...
https://mobile.twitter.com/TrundleDub/status/1558119959137509381
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Least qualified and away with the fairies.
God help us.
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You do have to pinch yourself. I's not a nightmare. One of these two will be PM in a fortnight.
Sunak today. "We need to stoke the village fete which is a cornerstone of British life."
Truss today, "GB News gets facts right."
God f**king help us.
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Michael Gove backs Rishi Sunak in Tory leadership bid https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62613501
Looks like Gove has had enough of Front Bench politics.
Do you think he could become the new Michael Portillo?
I can see him touring the world, sampling the various narcotics available in each region lol
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'I cannot see how safeguarding the stock options of FTSE 100 executives should ever take precedence over supporting the poorest in our society, but at a time of want it cannot be the right priority'
Michael Gove on Truss's stated campaign aims. Michael Gove!!!
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Only priorise it at a time of want eh?
Says it all about Tory sensibilities.
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Liz Truss has a feel of a Tory party that has given up on thinking.
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Michael Gove backs Rishi Sunak in Tory leadership bid https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62613501
Looks like Gove has had enough of Front Bench politics.
Do you think he could become the new Michael Portillo?
I can see him touring the world, sampling the various narcotics available in each region lol
Good f**king riddance to him. A cancer on our politics. Watch him here. Watch every f**king minute of him squirming and trying to intimidate a journalist who is doing nothing more than holding him to account for the incontinent lying of his party.
https://t.co/CB8heWNHQX
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The one redeeming feature of that video is that you KNOW from Gove's body language that he hates himself. The arms flailing around. The pushing the iPad away. That bizarre thing he does where he shoots up on tiptoes like he's trying to suck a tangerine up his arse.
Those aren't things anyone does who isn't under severe psychological strain.
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Vote Tory:
https://twitter.com/secrettory12/status/1560706605695606784
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'The only nation to sanction themselves'
Just about sums us up.
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''Jacob Rees-Mogg backs Liz Truss’s claim UK workers need ‘more graft’''
busadvertising
conservatives cornered the graft market
vote tory
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Michael Gove backs Rishi Sunak in Tory leadership bid https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62613501
Looks like Gove has had enough of Front Bench politics.
Do you think he could become the new Michael Portillo?
I can see him touring the world, sampling the various narcotics available in each region lol
Good f**king riddance to him. A cancer on our politics. Watch him here. Watch every f**king minute of him squirming and trying to intimidate a journalist who is doing nothing more than holding him to account for the incontinent lying of his party.
https://t.co/CB8heWNHQX
Wait til it comes out why his marriage collapsed so suddenly. Because it will.
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I hope you're going to be picketing for better conditions bb? maybe have a word with the incoming PM.
''Journalists at rightwing Daily Express set to strike over pay
Staff from newspaper that rails against ‘militant trade unions’ will join sister outlets in striking on Friday''
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Still waiting for answers from either of these candidates, not heard much of it.
But don't forget one thing, they need to play up to who's voting for them first, which given its Tory members is largely well off, older, rural types. Come an election they're appealing to many more.
Just like Keir Starmer in reality. What he pledged in the leadership contest to get elected isn't the same now he's actually leader is it? Immoral perhaps but understandable.
The point they make on more work does actually have some weight in some areas. On the whole a lot of Brits don't want to work hard and covid has made that go further. In some cases it's a battle to get people out of their houses.
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Still waiting for answers from either of these candidates, not heard much of it.
But don't forget one thing, they need to play up to who's voting for them first, which given its Tory members is largely well off, older, rural types. Come an election they're appealing to many more.
Just like Keir Starmer in reality. What he pledged in the leadership contest to get elected isn't the same now he's actually leader is it? Immoral perhaps but understandable.
The point they make on more work does actually have some weight in some areas. On the whole a lot of Brits don't want to work hard and covid has made that go further. In some cases it's a battle to get people out of their houses.
Immoral give me a break pud, what is immoral about Starmer? the most immoral he's been is have a beer with his canvassing team .......... and was cleared by the police ffs.
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Still waiting for answers from either of these candidates, not heard much of it.
But don't forget one thing, they need to play up to who's voting for them first, which given its Tory members is largely well off, older, rural types. Come an election they're appealing to many more.
Just like Keir Starmer in reality. What he pledged in the leadership contest to get elected isn't the same now he's actually leader is it? Immoral perhaps but understandable.
The point they make on more work does actually have some weight in some areas. On the whole a lot of Brits don't want to work hard and covid has made that go further. In some cases it's a battle to get people out of their houses.
If you want to improve productivity then it's generally a good idea to give workers the motivation to do so with things like productivity bonuses and a greater share of the increased profits created .
As with most things in life you get what you pay for .
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Still waiting for answers from either of these candidates, not heard much of it.
But don't forget one thing, they need to play up to who's voting for them first, which given its Tory members is largely well off, older, rural types. Come an election they're appealing to many more.
Just like Keir Starmer in reality. What he pledged in the leadership contest to get elected isn't the same now he's actually leader is it? Immoral perhaps but understandable.
The point they make on more work does actually have some weight in some areas. On the whole a lot of Brits don't want to work hard and covid has made that go further. In some cases it's a battle to get people out of their houses.
If you want to improve productivity then it's generally a good idea to give workers the motivation to do so with things like productivity bonuses and a greater share of the increased profits created .
As with most things in life you get what you pay for .
You can't argue with that pud the profits to shareholders have gone up massively compared to wages under your choice of government for far too long and this is the mess that needs to be cleared up.
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Still waiting for answers from either of these candidates, not heard much of it.
But don't forget one thing, they need to play up to who's voting for them first, which given its Tory members is largely well off, older, rural types. Come an election they're appealing to many more.
Just like Keir Starmer in reality. What he pledged in the leadership contest to get elected isn't the same now he's actually leader is it? Immoral perhaps but understandable.
The point they make on more work does actually have some weight in some areas. On the whole a lot of Brits don't want to work hard and covid has made that go further. In some cases it's a battle to get people out of their houses.
Yes I agree. MP's 'work' for around 150 days per year, whilst having subsidised meals and being able to claim, fuel, energy and housing costs on expenses.
If anyone knows about scroungers not wanting to do a hard days work and instead lounging about all day on benefits its Truss and Sunak.
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Another myth
https://www.tuc.org.uk/news/british-workers-putting-longest-hours-eu-tuc-analysis-finds
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Productivity has very little to do with workers working hard. It's far better correlated with capital investment, allowing people to work more efficiently.
THE most awful aspect of Austerity was that the Govt chose to limit capital investment right at the time when interest rates that Govt had to pay on borrowings were the lowest they had been for centuries. Fir a good chunk of the last decade, investors would actually lend to the Govt on negative interest rates! But we refused to take advantage of that.
Here's the figures.
https://mobile.twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1560962612896169985
Look at the historical record.
Capital investment was decimated under Thatcher and Major. THAT s why our railways, schools and hospitals were falling apart by the mid-90s.
Blair and Brown presided over a modest increase, back towards historical average figures. But they were spooked from going too far, too fast by the worry of Labour being thought of as being profligate. What we needed was a continuation of the upward slope to invest in renewable energy, better railways, better education. There was a once in a century opportunity to do that at negative interest rates.
And we blew it. Capital investment at best stagnated under the Tories. And so did productivity. As that air head Truss panders to her golf club bore electorate, saying it's because people don't work hard enough.
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Truss needs to remind herself that corporate world can't expect handouts from workers and something for nothing .
If they want to shirk capital investment or aren't willing to invest in their workers pay packets then they have to realise that the days of the Magic productivity tree are long gone .
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Still waiting for answers from either of these candidates, not heard much of it.
But don't forget one thing, they need to play up to who's voting for them first, which given its Tory members is largely well off, older, rural types. Come an election they're appealing to many more.
Just like Keir Starmer in reality. What he pledged in the leadership contest to get elected isn't the same now he's actually leader is it? Immoral perhaps but understandable.
The point they make on more work does actually have some weight in some areas. On the whole a lot of Brits don't want to work hard and covid has made that go further. In some cases it's a battle to get people out of their houses.
Immoral give me a break pud, what is immoral about Starmer? the most immoral he's been is have a beer with his canvassing team .......... and was cleared by the police ffs.
Tell that to some of your fellow left wing advocates who are outraged at his change of views on things such as nationalisation. Have a read throughy his leadership campaign and current policies.
Still waiting for answers from either of these candidates, not heard much of it.
But don't forget one thing, they need to play up to who's voting for them first, which given its Tory members is largely well off, older, rural types. Come an election they're appealing to many more.
Just like Keir Starmer in reality. What he pledged in the leadership contest to get elected isn't the same now he's actually leader is it? Immoral perhaps but understandable.
The point they make on more work does actually have some weight in some areas. On the whole a lot of Brits don't want to work hard and covid has made that go further. In some cases it's a battle to get people out of their houses.
If you want to improve productivity then it's generally a good idea to give workers the motivation to do so with things like productivity bonuses and a greater share of the increased profits created .
As with most things in life you get what you pay for .
I can't speak for all clearly only those I have experience with and even these things don't work with some. There is a real question mark around what some workers expect and what they want for it. I'd give you some examples if i could of my experiences but clearly that's not professional.
The point on MPs is an interesting one. Perhaps again we could find a way financially to motivate them more. For the level some of them are why would they work harder when they can earn way more money through other means or corruption? The morals we have are very different to many others granted but I also think we'd have better calibre if they were paid better. David milliband was a good example when he saw the money he could earn elsewhere after one loss he was gone...
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''mmoral give me a break pud, what is immoral about Starmer? the most immoral he's been is have a beer with his canvassing team .......... and was cleared by the police ffs.
Tell that to some of your fellow left wing advocates who are outraged at his change of views on things such as nationalisation. Have a read throughy his leadership campaign and current policies''
A lot of em are only part timers pud and allow the tories in when they ave monk on
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62628176
Sunak is bang on right here.
Cutting taxes AND giving other benefits needed to save people from (and I'm not exaggerating here) freezing or starving to death this winter WILL massively stoke inflation.
You CAN do both, but the effect will be economically catastrophic.
I'm genuinely starting to get frightened about the next 2 years with Truss in power. We are either going to see the worst civil disaster since the War, or we are going to have the economy wrecked. Because she cannot possibly back pedal now, on tax cuts. But that won't be enough to scratch the surface of what is needed to protect the poorest half of the population (or businesses) from what is coming. So she's going to need to pump in another £50-100bn into bank accounts on top of the tens of billions of tax cuts that she's committed to. Which will give inflation another surge.
Very, very worrying times. And possibly the End of Days for the Tories.
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Truss as PM is the UK jumping the shark!
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I'd not spotted this in that BBC article.
"Ms Truss has promised an "emergency budget" if she becomes prime minister in two weeks' time.
She will reverse National Insurance rises and stop business tax hikes - and has hinted at further cash support for families struggling with energy bills.
But she will not ask for a forecast of how this will impact the economy."
Look at that last paragraph.
That's who is going to run the country for the next 2 years. A woman who doesn't want to hear from the experts we pay to advise her, because they would tell her it is literally insane to cut taxes for the richest in this crisis.
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Or.
Am I underestimating her?
What if she gives a massive tax cut, gets a huge bounce in the polls then calls an October election?
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Or.
Am I underestimating her?
What if she gives a massive tax cut, gets a huge bounce in the polls then calls an October election?
That's what Labour are expecting
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/22/liz-trusss-arrival-in-no-10-could-deliver-tories-a-big-bounce-in-polls
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That would be the ultimate in treating the British electorate as too thick to understand. Give them a tax cut that will both damage the economy and do nowt to protect the most vulnerable in this crisis, then tell people they've never had it so good and please re-elect me.
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Or.
Am I underestimating her?
What if she gives a massive tax cut, gets a huge bounce in the polls then calls an October election?
I hope so. Surely even the Tories can't fool all of the people all of the time.
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People vote with their pockets more often than not. Don't forget she's a politician first and foremost. Again it's immoral to say one thing and not follow it through (I expect Sydney will agree with that it being about a conservative).
I agree with bst though you have to balance between support and doing too much.
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BFYP
A tax cut isn't in the same postcode as "balance" for what is required in this emergency.
People's ability to get through this winter is inversely proportional to their income. It's the poorest that will need the biggest help just to survive. Literally to survive.
Income tax or NI cuts will give zero to the poorest. But they'll be a nice wedge to the richest few percent of the population.
Tax cuts, other than VAT should not be remotely close to being on the agenda. What is needed is either price caps or targeted benefits.
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People vote with their pockets more often than not. Don't forget she's a politician first and foremost. Again it's immoral to say one thing and not follow it through (I expect Sydney will agree with that it being about a conservative).
I agree with bst though you have to balance between support and doing too much.
Pud, start with the basics like tories are in government, labour are not, and see how you go with that for a while.
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People vote with their pockets more often than not. Don't forget she's a politician first and foremost. Again it's immoral to say one thing and not follow it through (I expect Sydney will agree with that it being about a conservative).
I agree with bst though you have to balance between support and doing too much.
Truss has promised people that if elected that she will give people a tax cut. Whilst at the same time she has promised people more government help to pay energy bills in the winter.
Only one of those things is possible. You can have less money in government and not be able to give any away or more money in government that you can give away. There's no magic money tree.
I await with interest to see what she does - and whether you think she is immoral or not.
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Wilts.
She CAN do both. But it's the consequence of that which is the problem.
Sorting out the energy bills is going to take something like £30-50bn minimum. That's money that the Govt will ave to pump into the economy one way or another. Every 1% she cuts Income Tax or NI by will put another £6bn into the economy. Standard textbook economics says if Govt pumps money into the economy, it increases inflation. And THAT is the problem. Stoking up inflation when it is already high risks making high inflation semi-permanent, with all the negative problems for the economy that would entail.
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Dont forget the effect on government spending and debt Billy.
Sunaks budget last year was delivered on an expectation on inflation being at - I think - 4%. It's currently 10% and set to go higher. She needs to find the money to fund this. If she cuts taxes then she is going to need to borrow to give people assistance. At a time when interest rates are rising, thus debt starts rising - and the only way of raising money government money to pay off debt is...
She can't cut taxes and give assistance - the money isn't there. Someone is going to be disappointed.
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The Tories and clearly Truss are spoiling for a fight with the Trade Unions and possibly " People Movements " .
The Trade Unions thus far are playing an absolute blinder in my opinion .
What's passing the Tories by is that 70% of the country aren't buying the Trade Unions are militant , holding the country to ransom or the enemy within line .
This isn't 1979 when the country was fed up with industrial action and a GE on the horizon .
The Trade Union leaders of today are nothing like Scargill and co intent on toppling capitalism and there are no Red Rob's today .
My view is that because the Tories can't destroy the Trade Unions through the usual divide and conquer route and place the country against them they have one bullet remaining in their gun which they are threatening to use .
Bring in even more anti union legislation to make legal strike action almost impossible .
This in reality brings everything to a head and the battle lines drawn .
The consequences of strike action outside of new government legislation aren't known as yet but with the stakes as high as this you can be pretty sure under a Tory government with a PM who thinks she's the resurrection of Thatcher that they could well be severe .
Seizing of union funds , possible court appearances for Trade Union leaders , selective sackings of trade union members .
This despite this country currently having the most restrictive Trade Unions laws in Europe .
This government is in a tailspin with events escalating that they cannot control or even have the will plus a new PM hell bent on proving her Thatcher credentials to the 30% .
I'm not certain how this will play out in all honesty , it could be the touch paper for some serious civil disorder the likes this country hasn't seen since 1990 which could potentially bring the Tory government down .
On the other hand the Unions , people movements and demonstrations could well be crushed , I never underestimate the depths to which a Tory government will go in these situations , I have the T shirt .
None the less this is defiantly coming to a head and I'm predicting October if things go as they seem to be going .
Something will have to give .
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It will be interesting to see if Keith comes out in support of the Unions and the People's Movements.
I've thought for a long time that the working class of this country has no-one speaking on their behalf, apart from people like Mick Lynch.
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Do we really think the public supports unions turning down 7% pay offers? Really?
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#Invalid YouTube Link#
It will be interesting to see if Keith comes out in support of the Unions and the People's Movements.
To be honest Steve what the Labour Party does or doesn't do isn't something I personally focus on anymore .
To me the Labour Party are irrelevant in this instance , the coat holders in a bar room
I've thought for a long time that the working class of this country has no-one speaking on their behalf, apart from people like Mick Lynch.
Twas ever thus Steve .
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Do we really think the public supports unions turning down 7% pay offers? Really?
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-inflation-hit-18-early-2023-citi-forecasts-2022-08-22/
Just saying.
Plus, because heating and food are the costs going up the highest, and because poorer people pay a larger amount of their income for those things, inflation for the poorest workers, or even moderately paid ones will be way higher than this.
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This is a really frightening prospect for millions BST. Many working families have no chance of getting through this without serious support.
The need for the food support service I volunteer for is already spiralling week on week.
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Do we really think the public supports unions turning down 7% pay offers? Really?
Well let me put it to you another way , 7% isn't a pay offer its a pay cut so let's get that one sorted straight away .
The other thing to consider is that the public as you alluded to are also the ones about to enter more going out than coming in territory .
Your trying to paint a picture here of people who aren't taking industrial action are somehow excluded from what's about to be unleashed on them .
The truth is the people who are taking industrial action are in the same position as those who aren't or vice versa .
As I said the Tory government have one bullet left in the gun in my opinion and that's through new anti union legislation .
The usual tried and trusted Tory methods aren't going to work .
You'd better hope the one remaining bullet finds its target Pud .
If it doesn't .........anything could go down .
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Do we really think the public supports unions turning down 7% pay offers? Really?
The short answer is yes, especially when pay doesn’t keep pace with inflation
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Do we really think the public supports unions turning down 7% pay offers? Really?
When they know that pay for CEO has gone up by 39%. Yes really.
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Perhaps needy pensioners should get an additional payment to top up their funds to get them through the winter too.
After all, they didn’t get anything like 7% in April.
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Do we really think the public supports unions turning down 7% pay offers? Really?
How much do you think your pay needs to increase to keep in touch with the cost of living?
That'll be what a lot of people will be thinking to themselves as well.
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Do we really think the public supports unions turning down 7% pay offers? Really?
The unions are part of the public pud, the rest of the public are pretty much getting the rough end of the pineapple don't you think? do you think it is immoral that CEO's get 39% rises while people have to make a choice between eating and heating, really? When winter arrives many will not be able to afford either.
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It will be interesting to see if Keith comes out in support of the Unions and the People's Movements.
I've thought for a long time that the working class of this country has no-one speaking on their behalf, apart from people like Mick Lynch.
''Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country'' is a good place to start Steve
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It will be interesting to see if Keith comes out in support of the Unions and the People's Movements.
I've thought for a long time that the working class of this country has no-one speaking on their behalf, apart from people like Mick Lynch.
''Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country'' is a good place to start Steve
Or simply emigrate .
:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
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Did I miss an answer about you supporting the tories by not voting more than you've voted for labour tyke?
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It will be interesting to see if Keith comes out in support of the Unions and the People's Movements.
I've thought for a long time that the working class of this country has no-one speaking on their behalf, apart from people like Mick Lynch.
''Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country'' is a good place to start Steve
I already have done. I've declared my support for Mick Lynch and the RMT, and any Unions that decide to go on strike.
Will Keith do the same?
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Did I miss an answer about you supporting the tories by not voting more than you've voted for labour tyke?
If it isn't in The Guardian Syd I suspect you miss many things .
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Do we really think the public supports unions turning down 7% pay offers? Really?
The unions are part of the public pud, the rest of the public are pretty much getting the rough end of the pineapple don't you think? do you think it is immoral that CEO's get 39% rises while people have to make a choice between eating and heating, really? When winter arrives many will not be able to afford either.
Yes I do, no justification for it at all.
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It will be interesting to see if Keith comes out in support of the Unions and the People's Movements.
I've thought for a long time that the working class of this country has no-one speaking on their behalf, apart from people like Mick Lynch.
''Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country'' is a good place to start Steve
There you go Syd , your opportunity to stand up and be counted and do something about what you believe in most .
Rejoin The EU March & Rally Saturday 10th September starting from Hyde Park .
However if you are expecting to see anyone from the Labour Party speaking unfortunately you'll be disappointed .
Maybe Keith's banned it .
Think not of what Europe can do for you but what you can do for Europe .
Fly Qantas maybe :byebye:
https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/national-rejoin-march-tickets-396717281067?utm-campaign=social&utm-content=attendeeshare&utm-medium=discovery&utm-term=listing&utm-source=cp&aff=escb
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It will be interesting to see if Keith comes out in support of the Unions and the People's Movements.
I've thought for a long time that the working class of this country has no-one speaking on their behalf, apart from people like Mick Lynch.
''Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country'' is a good place to start Steve
I already have done. I've declared my support for Mick Lynch and the RMT, and any Unions that decide to go on strike.
Will Keith do the same?
Com' on Steve get real, you've been on strike for decades
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Did I miss an answer about you supporting the tories by not voting more than you've voted for labour tyke?
If it isn't in The Guardian Syd I suspect you miss many things .
A squib then tyke, am I right or am I right?
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It will be interesting to see if Keith comes out in support of the Unions and the People's Movements.
I've thought for a long time that the working class of this country has no-one speaking on their behalf, apart from people like Mick Lynch.
''Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country'' is a good place to start Steve
There you go Syd , your opportunity to stand up and be counted and do something about what you believe in most .
Rejoin The EU March & Rally Saturday 10th September starting from Hyde Park .
However if you are expecting to see anyone from the Labour Party speaking unfortunately you'll be disappointed .
Maybe Keith's banned it .
Think not of what Europe can do for you but what you can do for Europe .
Fly Qantas maybe :byebye:
https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/national-rejoin-march-tickets-396717281067?utm-campaign=social&utm-content=attendeeshare&utm-medium=discovery&utm-term=listing&utm-source=cp&aff=escb
Thought for a long time, like a nanosecond tyke, you hadn't heard of Lynch 6 months ago aye?
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Or.
Am I underestimating her?
What if she gives a massive tax cut, gets a huge bounce in the polls then calls an October election?
That's what Labour are expecting
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/22/liz-trusss-arrival-in-no-10-could-deliver-tories-a-big-bounce-in-polls
If that IS the Truss policy, she's got a lot of catching up to do. Since Starmer announced his (admittedly limited) plan to deal with the energy crisis, Labour have been averaging 43% in the polls. For context, other than a handful of polls immediately after the 2017 Election, Labour hasn't averaged higher than 43 for any significant period of time since 2001.
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Rishi Sunak: I killed 40,000 people.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62259107
Christ we are through the looking glass in politics these days.
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Or.
Am I underestimating her?
What if she gives a massive tax cut, gets a huge bounce in the polls then calls an October election?
That's what Labour are expecting
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/22/liz-trusss-arrival-in-no-10-could-deliver-tories-a-big-bounce-in-polls
If that IS the Truss policy, she's got a lot of catching up to do. Since Starmer announced his (admittedly limited) plan to deal with the energy crisis, Labour have been averaging 43% in the polls. For context, other than a handful of polls immediately after the 2017 Election, Labour hasn't averaged higher than 43 for any significant period of time since 2001.
“Admittedly limited”.
So not particularly good or sustainable then.
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Rishi Sunak: I killed 40,000 people.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62259107
Christ we are through the looking glass in politics these days.
I honestly don't know what is the scariest possibility here.
1)The ide that he still, after all this time, doesn't realise that delaying the lockdowns didn't ever make things better. It made every single outcome worse. More infections. More pressure on the NHS. More deaths. Longer lockdown when it finally did come. More economic damage. That's just not even up for debate, outside a few flat earthers and chem trail head jobs.
2) Or the possibility that he knows damn well the catastrophe that was caused by the decision to delay the Xmas 2020 lockdown, and he's happy to feed the ignorance of the people he wants to vote for him.
Either way it's not a good position for a potential PM is it?
-
Rishi Sunak: I killed 40,000 people.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62259107
Christ we are through the looking glass in politics these days.
I honestly don't know what is the scariest possibility here.
1)The ide that he still, after all this time, doesn't realise that delaying the lockdowns didn't ever make things better. It made every single outcome worse. More infections. More pressure on the NHS. More deaths. Longer lockdown when it finally did come. More economic damage. That's just not even up for debate, outside a few flat earthers and chem trail head jobs.
2) Or the possibility that he knows damn well the catastrophe that was caused by the decision to delay the Xmas 2020 lockdown, and he's happy to feed the ignorance of the people he wants to vote for him.
Either way it's not a good position for a potential PM is it?
He’s not going to be PM, we’re going to get the other nutter instead
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No but he's got to within inches of it. And there he was, taking credit for a decision that cost tens of thousands of lives and tens of billions of unnecessary economic loss.
It's beyond stupidity. He's saying he's the hero for stopping the lockdown before Xmas 2020.
But the lockdown still came in early 2021. And because of that delay, the outbreak was twice as big as it was before Xmas. So more people died. More hospital time was taken. The lockdown had to go on for longer to screw it down to safe levels. So we lost far more money.
How can anyone take any of that as a f**king positive?
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Yeah but he saved Christmas....
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No but he's got to within inches of it. And there he was, taking credit for a decision that cost tens of thousands of lives and tens of billions of unnecessary economic loss.
It's beyond stupidity. He's saying he's the hero for stopping the lockdown before Xmas 2020.
But the lockdown still came in early 2021. And because of that delay, the outbreak was twice as big as it was before Xmas. So more people died. More hospital time was taken. The lockdown had to go on for longer to screw it down to safe levels. So we lost far more money.
How can anyone take any of that as a f**king positive?
He wasn't finished..
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62664537
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https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1562886492946825217
Jesus wept.
There's a f**king war going on a few hundred miles away started by a true enemy of Western democracy and...this f**king air head is going to be our PM. Talking stupid, stupid shite like this because she's got precisely zero of any substance to offer but chucking red meat to the idiots who are going to put her in No 10.
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I've no particular axe to grind for Macron, but THIS is how to respond to that idiot Truss.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1563114953061863426
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I've no particular axe to grind for Macron, but THIS is how to respond to that idiot Truss.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1563114953061863426
From the same twitter thread,
Blustone
@pendrelll
·
53m
Replying to
@Mij_Europe
Truss wasn't asked about France as an ally she was asked about Macron as a friend.
All you have done is expose your own bias, you attack Truss for saying Macron may not be a friend, but cheer Macron when he says the same about Truss and Johnson.
#notthesameforboth
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DD.
In case it slipped your attention, Truss started this spat with a totally stupid and unnecessary comment.
The correct answer to the question she was asked was "Yes of course, what a stupid question. We have differences of course, but in the big picture we are fundamentally on the same side."
She didn't. She played to her gallery. Macron is absolutely justified in smacking her down.
Now I'll make a prediction.
Truss will continue to bait Macron and accuse him of manoeuvring over the NI Protocol. She will regularly threaten to pull out of the protocol and bring down the trade agreement with the EU.
And she will do precisely zero of substance.
Because this is all an act to try to secure the backing of thick xenophobes.
Make a note to check this prediction in 3, 6 and 12 months. If she lasts that long.
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DD.
In case it slipped your attention, Truss started this spat with a totally stupid and unnecessary comment.
The correct answer to the question she was asked was "Yes of course, what a stupid question. We have differences of course, but in the big picture we are fundamentally on the same side."
She didn't. She played to her gallery. Macron is absolutely justified in smacking her down.
Now I'll make a prediction.
Truss will continue to bait Macron and accuse him of manoeuvring over the NI Protocol. She will regularly threaten to pull out of the protocol and bring down the trade agreement with the EU.
And she will do precisely zero of substance.
Because this is all an act to try to secure the backing of thick xenophobes.
Make a note to check this prediction in 3, 6 and 12 months. If she lasts that long.
As usual you've managed to change the point of your reply to reinforce your belief that Macron=good whilst Truss is a complete dead loss.
Were talking about a man who "didn't play to any galleries" when the French had their submarine contract terminated by the Australians. Can you tell me he acted in a manner becoming a national leader?
In effect he did everything and worse that you are now alleging that Truss will do in the near future with regard to the NI Protocol.
Very easy to throw mud and hope it sticks at Truss when she is not even in the seat yet, the bloke has had more hissy fits and pranced around like a baby child for all the world to see, producing precisely zero of substance.
How you can accuse one of something she is yet to do of "precisely zero substance " and yet this preening show pony who has form gets away with and worse gets used as shining example of how one conducts themselves!!
Take a deep breath mate, step away from the pc and talk a long walk.
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DD
Here's a challenge.
Go and have a look and see if you can find a single example of a post war western European leader publicly questioning whether the leader of another western European country was a friend or a foe.
One will do.
As far as the prediction if what Truss will do, have a think what "prediction" means.
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''Another Tory MP who switched to Truss from another candidate said they felt “disappointed with the lack of focus on what matters to people” and acknowledged they had mostly backed her because she looked likely to win''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/26/liz-truss-tories-disarray-energy-crisis-urged-spell-out-plans-help
looking after number 1 then?
-
um interesting
-
https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1562886492946825217
Jesus wept.
There's a f**king war going on a few hundred miles away started by a true enemy of Western democracy and...this f**king air head is going to be our PM. Talking stupid, stupid shite like this because she's got precisely zero of any substance to offer but chucking red meat to the idiots who are going to put her in No 10.
Totally agree.
After Johnson though, anything or anybody is a massive improvement.
Neither Truss or Sunak are leaders, honest or aware of how much the country is struggling.
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''Another Tory MP who switched to Truss from another candidate said they felt “disappointed with the lack of focus on what matters to people” and acknowledged they had mostly backed her because she looked likely to win''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/26/liz-truss-tories-disarray-energy-crisis-urged-spell-out-plans-help
looking after number 1 then?
I'm thinking some of the more intelligent Tory ministers will be wanting to get inside with Truss so they can be somewhere close to power and stop her making the Tories unelectable for a generation. Because she will if no-one reins her in.
Most new leaders get a honeymoon period because they are relatively unknown. Then they go down as they are in the public eye and seen to be, let's say, less than perfect.
Truss's polling figures are absolutely disastrous before she even takes power.
Look at the latest poll. See the numbers for Q4 here.
https://peoplepolling.org/tables/202208_GBN_W34_full.pdf
And then look at the word map on the last page.
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I dunno bst, I can see why they want to run along side a 'winner' not sure about their motives though. If the plans on the table are the best she can come up with they'll be going down with the ship, icebergs abound.
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I don't imagine these treacherous Tory MPs have done anything different to what Labour MPs would have done after Blair stepping down and Brown taking over,or to Labour party machinations trying to get their man onto their national executive, with backroom deals with union barons, to these people it's job preservation, to the general public it's just more confirmation that these weasel political types will do and say anything to preserve their gravy train.
Not unexpected by any means.
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I don't imagine these treacherous Tory MPs have done anything different to what Labour MPs would have done after Blair stepping down and Brown taking over,or to Labour party machinations trying to get their man onto their national executive, with backroom deals with union barons, to these people it's job preservation, to the general public it's just more confirmation that these weasel political types will do and say anything to preserve their gravy train.
Not unexpected by any means.
I'm not sure why if you cannot see any difference in political parties or politicians you would want to spend your valuable time on a political thread dd, but there you go.
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I don't imagine these treacherous Tory MPs have done anything different to what Labour MPs would have done after Blair stepping down and Brown taking over,or to Labour party machinations trying to get their man onto their national executive, with backroom deals with union barons, to these people it's job preservation, to the general public it's just more confirmation that these weasel political types will do and say anything to preserve their gravy train.
Not unexpected by any means.
I'm not sure why if you cannot see any difference in political parties or politicians you would want to spend your valuable time on a political thread dd, but there you go.
Would that be the same as you spending time on a 4th division clubs board but never mentioning anything about football?
Are you one of them weird lurker types on the internet, what else do you get up to ?
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I don't imagine these treacherous Tory MPs have done anything different to what Labour MPs would have done after Blair stepping down and Brown taking over,or to Labour party machinations trying to get their man onto their national executive, with backroom deals with union barons, to these people it's job preservation, to the general public it's just more confirmation that these weasel political types will do and say anything to preserve their gravy train.
Not unexpected by any means.
I'm not sure why if you cannot see any difference in political parties or politicians you would want to spend your valuable time on a political thread dd, but there you go.
Would that be the same as you spending time on a 4th division clubs board but never mentioning anything about football?
Are you one of them weird lurker types on the internet, what else do you get up to ?
Not even 1% of his posts are on football matters.
I shudder to think what else he gets up to.
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I don't imagine these treacherous Tory MPs have done anything different to what Labour MPs would have done after Blair stepping down and Brown taking over,or to Labour party machinations trying to get their man onto their national executive, with backroom deals with union barons, to these people it's job preservation, to the general public it's just more confirmation that these weasel political types will do and say anything to preserve their gravy train.
Not unexpected by any means.
#allthesame
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I don't imagine these treacherous Tory MPs have done anything different to what Labour MPs would have done after Blair stepping down and Brown taking over,or to Labour party machinations trying to get their man onto their national executive, with backroom deals with union barons, to these people it's job preservation, to the general public it's just more confirmation that these weasel political types will do and say anything to preserve their gravy train.
Not unexpected by any means.
I'm not sure why if you cannot see any difference in political parties or politicians you would want to spend your valuable time on a political thread dd, but there you go.
Would that be the same as you spending time on a 4th division clubs board but never mentioning anything about football?
Are you one of them weird lurker types on the internet, what else do you get up to ?
Most of has already been said if you haven't noticed Einstein
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Truss is so far not offering anything that is really going to moderate the energy crisis. I don't think she really knows what's going on.
Sunak understands what's happening but is not offering anywhere near enough support.
It's the devil and the deep blue sea.
I don't mind admitting, I'm fearful for the future.
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Truss is so far not offering anything that is really going to moderate the energy crisis. I don't think she really knows what's going on.
Sunak understands what's happening but is not offering anywhere near enough support.
It's the devil and the deep blue sea.
I don't mind admitting, I'm fearful for the future.
I'm hoping the advisors behind the scenes can talk some sense to the next leader, its going to take some doing but the next couple of years could be pivot-able for our foreseeable economic wellbeing, i don't think anyone on here will be exempt from the sh*t storm that's about to hit us.
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Misstrust is going to do the same as Johnson, surround herself with a bunch of no hopers as her Ministers.
I see Dottie Dorries is already asking her to show bravery and cancel the enquiry into Johnsons behaviour, not legal I understand.
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Apparently Johnson is spending the rest of the week touring the country "to cement his legacy".
Just...words...
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I'm just hoping someone can just cement his legs, preferably to the foundations of a bridge.
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Worried about being toast ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62715983
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Worried about being toast ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62715983
burnt toast and about as useful
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Why didn’t she just hide in a fridge, rather than weasel out of hard questions?
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An indication of how horrific a Truss Govt will be.
Word is she is going to make Rees-Mogg Secretary of State for the Dept of Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy.
Jesus
f**king
Wept.
The Minister for the 18th Century is going to be leading our industrial strategy, and our response to the energy crisis.
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An indication of how horrific a Truss Govt will be.
Word is she is going to make Rees-Mogg Secretary of State for the Dept of Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy.
Jesus
f**king
Wept.
The Minister for the 18th Century is going to be leading our industrial strategy, and our response to the energy crisis.
To be fair his 18th century knowledge should include how to start an industrial revolution
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John Redwood also in line for a return to front line politics with a senior front bench role at the Treasury.....
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/back-from-the-outer-limits-the-vulcan-sets-phasers-to-stun-the-treasury-0r5c5kfzz
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John Redwood also in line for a return to front line politics with a senior front bench role at the Treasury.....
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/back-from-the-outer-limits-the-vulcan-sets-phasers-to-stun-the-treasury-0r5c5kfzz
Dear God.
It feels like she's a plant, dropped in with a mission to make the Tories unelectable for a generation.
Redwood! He's barely on nodding terms with economic principles. He's spouted utter unmitigated shite on the subject for years.
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Meanwhile, every once in a while, there's a political upheaval. The methods and philosophy that underpinned the previous generation fall apart. A new paradigm emerges.
It happened in 1945.
It happened in 1979.
If this, in the UK, in 2022 isn't the wake up call that it needs to happen again, God knows what is.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AvaSantina/status/1564732582851395585
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Meanwhile, every once in a while, there's a political upheaval. The methods and philosophy that underpinned the previous generation fall apart. A new paradigm emerges.
It happened in 1945.
It happened in 1979.
If this, in the UK, in 2022 isn't the wake up call that it needs to happen again, God knows what is.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AvaSantina/status/1564732582851395585
Hope your sitting down Billy, but I find myself agreeing with you
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Doesn't surprise me Ldr. It's hard to listen to that and not think that we need a big, big change of direction.
On that score, I very much recommend listening to this, by the brilliant economist and writer Duncan Weldon.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5pzWoPG9S5YW7dxZYtcaAJ?si=uel3ONy9QZmGvrePo6k5JA&nd=1&utm_medium=organic&product=open&%24full_url=https%3A%2F%2Fopen.spotify.com%2Fepisode%2F5pzWoPG9S5YW7dxZYtcaAJ%3Fsi%3Duel3ONy9QZmGvrePo6k5JA&feature=organic&_branch_match_id=847250048138551168&_branch_referrer=H4sIAAAAAAAAA72N3QqCMACFn2ZeKrk0DCSEUPCijC5Eb2JtM4dzG%2FuJ7OmbQa8QnIvD%2Bfg4o7XK7KPIKGnZsIRIqZAzMUUHpSVx2OZSURGAeDs4zm9O83xcFQALEJc%2BKw5%2FNpazn6hiRhLqW6LerWyq7Jp07Y68%2Bs5iVNQAloYBeHSUw%2FNpyS79XD01bWQ6JXXx%2FUKc3xGe%2FvEH4lQQTzfBQJF1muZSP5Bg%2BANiONy3GwEAAA%3D%3D
He's laying stuff out very, very clearly about how big a hole we are in, and how much Govt is going to have to spend to get us out of it.
Big picture (he only covers some of this, but the rest is basic facts)
Before the GFC, our Govt Debt to GDP ratio was about 40%
After the GFC, it went up to about 70%.
Austerity and the Brexit vote economic hit pushed it up to about 80%.
COVID pushed it to just under 100%.
Weldon is saying the level of borrowing the Govt will have to do to get us through this will push this up to 120%.
The lesson seems clear to me. The basic economic model isn't strong enough to cope with a series of big, but not existential threats, without relying on ever increasing Govt borrowing just to limp along.
We have to find a better way forward to reinvigorate our economy. The alternative is a brutal, long grinding decline. The start of that is showing up as parents unable to afford school dinners for their kids. If we don't get a handle on this, that will look like a pinprick in 20 years time.
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20 years time?!! More like 2 years time.
Forget food banks, we’re now talking about introducing ‘warm banks’ once the weather turns colder due to a large proportion of the population unable to afford to heat their own homes.
‘Warm banks’ will comprise of public libraries, museums, churches where people can congregate together in one place in order to keep warm.
In Germany they are already turning off lights that would normally illuminate public buildings, statues etc.
I don’t see the Houses of Parliament or the Royal Palaces doing the same.
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Just listening to the podcast (ta bst) this if I remember correctly is what was said about Spain last year I think, that due to the gfc and the extremely tough conditions there re work etc that many spent all their savings surviving and now with the covid shock they don't have any wriggle room, they didn't have a chance to recover.
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Jesus Christ. Just seen that Truss's latest policy is to consider abolishing speed limits on motorways.
So that'll be more CO2, more deaths and slower overall journey times. Just to indulge a few people's Top Gear fantasies.
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Given the state of driving on motorways currently I’m unsure we would notice any difference if speed limits were scrapped.
Plus, aren’t new cars from July 2022 fitted with speed limiters? Which I understand can be over ridden by drivers.
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Jesus Christ. Just seen that Truss's latest policy is to consider abolishing speed limits on motorways.
So that'll be more CO2, more deaths and slower overall journey times. Just to indulge a few people's Top Gear fantasies.
It's a cynical tease designed to appeal to kind of person that would vote for a Truss/Tory government. It will never happen. Nor will the abolition of smart motorways, a policy she is also teasing.
Having said that, if any Government did introduce such a policy, I wouldn't view it quite as negatively as you do. I do about 30,000 miles a year primarily on motorways and over the last 2/3 years it has become almost unbearable driving anywhere of any distance due to what I perceive to be badly managed motorways (i.e the "Smart" ones) and an ever increasing sense of "war on the motorist". Is there any actual statistical proof that relaxing speed limited causes more deaths? I genuinely don't know but I would imagine the small number of derestricted sections of autobahn in Germany would provide the closest comparator. I'd imagine there are less accidents and better traffic flow but when there is an accident it would most likely be a big one! In Europe it seems to me that there is a far greater emphasis placed on driving to the conditions as opposed to a pathological focus on the actual speed (see for example dual speed limits on French autoroutes depending on the weather).
I'll give you the example of 30mph outside a school on a snowy day. I think that's excessive and dangerous, yet still legal. 90 mph in the dead of night on a deserted motorway in clear, dry conditions is in my view far less offensive to me. Speed limits used to be enforced with that degree of common sense, but they are no longer. I remember a time where a police officer would exercise their discretion when it came to speeding offences and would instead give you a "producer" and tell you to get on your way if you weren't doing anything outrageously dangerous or offensive. Those days are gone and it is now a zero tolerance approach across the board. Some say it's down to the money-making element of speeding fines. Maybe so. Personally I feel the bigger issue is that it demonstrates the ever increasing move towards a massively state/government controlled society as opposed to one that places personal liberty and the rule of law as the principles upon which society is based. You and I are fundamentally opposed on that topic BST, we have established that previously, but it's undeniable that a socialist society can only be achieved with massive state control at the expense of personal liberty and that seems to me the way in which this Country and the world in general is going. The pandemic and how it was handled is/was a further battleground upon which that debate was played out.
Elections these days aren't fought on left/right principles of old. Brexit voting demographics and the fall of the "red wall" should tell us that. It's now about woke v anti-woke, socialism/big government versus personal liberty. These teased, pie in the sky policies from Truss appealing to the traditional embattled, fed up and embittered "motorist" (yes I am one for my sins) would hold huge appeal to the demographic that the Tories will be trying to appeal to.
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Tommy.
This from Der Spiegel, says that the rate of fatal accidents on autobahns without a speed limit is 75% higher than on those with one.
https://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/tempolimit-koennte-jaehrlich-bis-zu-140-todesfaelle-verhindern-a-1254504.html
Anecdotally, I drove 300 miles in a day in Germany recently, much of it on unlimited autobahns. I saw FIVE major accidents including two that must have been fatal (a car on its roof with the roof smashed right into the cabin, and a van piled into the back of a truck and engulfed in flames.
I'm a seasoned driver but I was genuinely shocked at dealing with the number of cars piling down the outside lane at above a ton. It is by some way the most stressful day's driving I've had in years and I'll crawl over broken glass to avoid it in future.
Regarding personal responsibility, I'm in favour of that wherever suitable. I'm not sure how me being responsible does anything to prevent some other Kitson from piling into the back of me at 120mph, or choosing to pour out three times the CO2 that they ought to.
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It’s always amazes me why cars just don’t have limiters fitted. Like lorries do.
Everyone gets where they need to be, safer. It may take a little longer, but less people die or get seriously injured. We use less fuel, pollute the environment less, and it would probably be considerably less stressful.
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IMO it has already been decided that Sunak will win and it was decided a long time ago. No evidence, just a gut feeling.
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IMO it has already been decided that Sunak will win and it was decided a long time ago. No evidence, just a gut feeling.
Best get y’sen down t bookies then Panda. You can get 12/1 on Sunak. Whereas truss is between 1/20 and 1/100.
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IMO it has already been decided that Sunak will win and it was decided a long time ago. No evidence, just a gut feeling.
Best get y’sen down t bookies then Panda. You can get 12/1 on Sunak. Whereas truss is between 1/20 and 1/100.
Yep. I know it seems mightily improbable now given how Truss has 'performed' these past few months but just a hunch. Anyway, wasn't the Brexit vote a no brainer in favour of remain according to the bookies but yet that didn't happen? IIRC? Might have 20 quid on Sunak then. Truss talks a good game but we all know what will happen as soon as she gets in, if she does get in. Sunak seems like a globalist and one for the puppet masters above to control and pull the strings of to suit their agenda so feel it will be him still.
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It’s always amazes me why cars just don’t have limiters fitted. Like lorries do.
Everyone gets where they need to be, safer. It may take a little longer, but less people die or get seriously injured. We use less fuel, pollute the environment less, and it would probably be considerably less stressful.
My Volvo has 2 speed limiters, 1 is my Mrs the other is the caravan :-]]
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Interesting piece here from an economist who is well over to the left.
https://mobile.twitter.com/meadwaj/status/1565338925056417792
Tl:dr. He's saying that he thinks Truss has an economic plan to win the next Election, based on massive tax cuts to produce a boom in the run up to a 2024 Election before the really serious pain of massive cutbacks gets rolled out after the next Election.
That's the oldest trick in the book in politics.
But people on the left, me included, have assumed it wasn't possible this time because of the effect on the Govt debt.
This guy is saying the (very right wing) economists advising Truss are saying "to hell with the deficit, get the economy booming." Which is precisely what we should have been saying 12 years ago. But when people on the left did say it, those on the right said we were living in cloud cuckoo land.
Problem is, going balls out for growth NOW when inflation is already a problem, risks very serious long term economic damage. The Tories have done it twice before, in the early 70s and late 80s, when they cut taxes and pushed us into unsustainable booms. Both times inflation ended up our of control and both times that resulted in a serious recession 3 years down the line.
Truss is such a hard nosed ambitious person, I wouldn't put it past her to adopt a policy that she knows damn well is seriously bad for the long term, as long as it gives her a shot of winning the Election.
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Jesus Christ. Just seen that Truss's latest policy is to consider abolishing speed limits on motorways.
So that'll be more CO2, more deaths and slower overall journey times. Just to indulge a few people's Top Gear fantasies.
I saw this and just laughed. She is bonkers.
Then I wondered if she's just trying to distract from the car crash that is her economic policy?
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Data from the Office for National Statistics below shows the percentages of National Debt (excluding public sector banks) to GDP at each date of each general election dates.
Labour: 1945 (243.8%) to 1951 (178.3%)
Conservative: 1951 (178.3%) to 1955 (139.3%) to 1959 (112.5%) to 1964 (88.9%)
Labour: 1964 (88.9%) to 1966 (80.8%) to 1970 (59.5%)
Conservative: 1970 (59.5%) to 1974 (57.0%)
Labour: 1974 (57.0%) to 1979 (45.1%)
Conservative: 1979 (45.1%) to 1983 (41.5%) to 1987 (34.3%) to 1992 (28.1%) to 1997 (38.4%)
Labour: 1997 (38.4%) to 2001 (29.1%) to 2005 (35.4%) to 2010 (71.7%)
Conservative/LibDem: 2010 (71.7%) to 2015 (84.9%)
Conservative: 2015 (84.9%) to 2017 (86.1%)
On the whole they have not done bad. 2008 saw the US property crash which sent financial shockwaves around the world, which explains the jump in 2010 during Labours tenure.
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NR.
You need to look at the context of how the debt to GDP came down after the War.
It was at astronomical levels in 1945 after two world wars had to be paid for, and the shocking interwar economic performance had pushed it higher.
But we didn't get these percentages down by paying off the debt. The debt in 1997 was WAY higher than it had been in 1945. What had changed was that the economy, measured by GDP had grown much, much faster. Plus, we'd had high inflation for much of that period.
The debt to GDP ratio us about 100% now and it had better go up to 120% if we are going to stop people freezing or starving to death this winter.
After that, we desperately need two decades or more of above average growth to whittle away the debt problem. Instead of the grindingly awful growth that Austerity and Brexit have given us over the time this lot have been in power.
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https://news.sky.com/story/sexual-misconduct-allegations-revealed-against-cabinet-minister-and-top-no-10-aide-12686969
I’m guessing she’ll be sorting this out as a priority.
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https://news.sky.com/story/sexual-misconduct-allegations-revealed-against-cabinet-minister-and-top-no-10-aide-12686969
I’m guessing she’ll be sorting this out as a priority.
''Liz Truss refuses to commit to appointing ethics adviser
Tory leadership hopeful says there is no need for independent body as she has ‘always acted with integrity’''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/23/liz-truss-refuses-to-commit-to-appointing-ethics-adviser
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I wonder if her plan regarding scrapping speed limits on motorways is an attempt to ease pressure off the nhs. Because pile ups with cars doing three figures is a certain way to bypass a and e. Straight to the morgue. Perhaps it’s population control by stealth?
I can see it now though. Boy and girl racers flocking to certain stretches of motorways to race each other. It won’t end well.
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There was a time when I did quite a lot of driving in the USA.
I liked their Interstate (our motorway) driving rules.
Usually 65mph speed limit and drivers could stay in lane, any lane, whilst people could pass on either side of you.
It was so much more relaxing driving like that.
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I generally drive at about 70-80 on motorways. I sometimes do between 80 and 90 in short bursts but don't feel comfortable driving at those speeds. Anyone driving above 100 is a moron and should have their licence revoked for 10 years.
I'm always staggered when you are trundling along the motorway at about 60 - 70 in the dark and it is hammering it down with rain and you see cretins bombing past at about 100mph! How can they even see that far ahead coz i bloody well can't and i'm doing far less speed?!
If a car switches lanes suddenly then these idiots haven't a hope in hell of stopping in time.
Accidents waiting to happen.
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There's times where a higher limit may be appropriate, say 8pm on an empty motorway. Why not make it more dynamic and up speeds a little at quiet times for those comfortable where appropriate. Driving 80 on a dead M1 doesn't feel like a problem.
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There was a time when I did quite a lot of driving in the USA.
I liked their Interstate (our motorway) driving rules.
Usually 65mph speed limit and drivers could stay in lane, any lane, whilst people could pass on either side of you.
It was so much more relaxing driving like that.
Bloody hell hound, I’d be dropping to sleep doing 65mph on some of those ‘straight into the horizon for the next 200 miles’ roads!
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Truss wins. Just listened to her speech on talkradio.
She thanked Rishi Sunak and said that the very fact she was competing against him was a indication of the depth of talent in the party!!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'd say the very fact that either are anywhere remotely near becoming PM is a clear indication as to how screwed our country is.
Strap yourself in for loads more empty words and no action folks!
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So Truss is victor. Gonna be hilarious to watch this car crash. Already she repeated the infamous "cheeeese" moment in her speech at the party conference a few years back. Today, praising Johnson, she said he'd done various good things, vaccines and "you'll be admired from Kiev to Carlisle"
(Pause, Truss waiting)
(Extended pause, still she waits)
(Finally an embaressed smatterinng of applause)
She is so far off the pulse!
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Interesting listening to radio 5. Presenter read out about 10 texts after the result. EVERY one of them was negative to Truss, the Tories, the undemocratic vote. Presenter had to add that they want to represent "all sides" so called for positive comments. Love it, Beeb, Tories, Truss all in a pickle together :laugh:
<added>
The first interview with the public was class too. Bloke sat in the rain in Wiltshire, a life long Tory voter, saying he was underwhelmed, and then proceeded to slag off Truss and the Tories. #bothsidism working well! :laugh:
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Truss wins. Just listened to her speech on talkradio.
She thanked Rishi Sunak and said that the very fact she was competing against him was a indication of the depth of talent in the party!!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'd say the very fact that either are anywhere remotely near becoming PM is a clear indication as to how screwed our country is.
The next indicator to watch out for is whether either Dorries or Coffey are anywhere in the government Truss announces...and that includes junior ministership. If either of these people - who are not merely just incompetent buffoons but nasty with it as well - are given any power whatsoever it'll just serve as an indictment of the lack of quality of the Tory pool of MPs.
I'm hoping that they were only given jobs because of the growing number of MPs who wouldn't serve under Boris restricting the quality of choice of MPs who would; which I hope for the country's sake isn't a problem inherited by Truss.
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My first time was the 6-0 win, freezing and rickety wooden stand, never been there when it's warm
"Freezing and rickety wooden stand" - fits perfectly this vote.
I've never been in the warm whilst Tories are in power too.
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I generally drive at about 70-80 on motorways. I sometimes do between 80 and 90 in short bursts but don't feel comfortable driving at those speeds. Anyone driving above 100 is a moron and should have their licence revoked for 10 years.
I'm always staggered when you are trundling along the motorway at about 60 - 70 in the dark and it is hammering it down with rain and you see cretins bombing past at about 100mph! How can they even see that far ahead coz i bloody well can't and i'm doing far less speed?!
If a car switches lanes suddenly then these idiots haven't a hope in hell of stopping in time.
Accidents waiting to happen.
I had a car do this on the M3 earlier this year - everyone doing about 40/50mph it was that bad, he was doing 70+. Saw him a mile down the road hopping about in the central reservation with his mangled car next to him. My heart bled, poor love.
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Truss wins. Just listened to her speech on talkradio.
She thanked Rishi Sunak and said that the very fact she was competing against him was a indication of the depth of talent in the party!!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'd say the very fact that either are anywhere remotely near becoming PM is a clear indication as to how screwed our country is.
The next indicator to watch out for is whether either Dorries or Coffey are anywhere in the government Truss announces...and that includes junior ministership. If either of these people - who are not merely just incompetent buffoons but nasty with it as well - are given any power whatsoever it'll just serve as an indictment of the lack of quality of the Tory pool of MPs.
I'm hoping that they were only given jobs because of the growing number of MPs who wouldn't serve under Boris restricting the quality of choice of MPs who would; which I hope for the country's sake isn't a problem inherited by Truss.
The only bit of news remotely good is that Johnson SP IV is no longer the PM
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IMO it has already been decided that Sunak will win and it was decided a long time ago. No evidence, just a gut feeling.
How are your guts this afternoon?
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My first time was the 6-0 win, freezing and rickety wooden stand, never been there when it's warm
"Freezing and rickety wooden stand" - fits perfectly this vote.
I've never been in the warm whilst Tories are in power too.
the
I've no idea how that got there ! Removed Brr just for clarity on your post
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IMO it has already been decided that Sunak will win and it was decided a long time ago. No evidence, just a gut feeling.
How are your guts this afternoon?
Cashed out a few days ago and got my stake back. Bet that makes your piss boil doesn't it Mr number 3? :lol:
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Survation poll today.
Q1 Who would you vote for in a GE today:
Lab 43%
Con 33%
Q2. Who would you vote for in a GE today with Keir Starmer as Lab leader and Liz Truss as Con leader.
Lab 46%
Con 29%
Who was it who was lecturing me a few months ago that the Tories would bounce back when they got rid of Johnson?
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If Truss sorts out the NHS properly and not just chucking money at it, makes GP's do a full time job for their ridiculous salaries, stops illegal migrants coming over on dinghies, raises the minimum wage to £15 which is bare minimum what it should be, sorts out the woke police force and the pathetic failing criminal justice system, builds more prisons, stops the indoctrination of our kids in schools with trans / lgbtq crap, significantly reduces petrol and diesel prices, sorts out our energy crisis, puts an end to the covid emergency law once and for all, scraps all this green nonsense, stops giving Ukraine shit loads of cash when our pensioners are starving and freezing, increases disability benefit so disabled people can actually have some semblance of existence and tells the truth more often than not then i might vote for her.
Reality is that none of the above will get done though. Like it won't under Labour.
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If Truss sorts out the NHS properly and not just chucking money at it, makes GP's do a full time job for their ridiculous salaries, stops illegal migrants coming over on dinghies, raises the minimum wage to £15 which is bare minimum what it should be, sorts out the woke police force and the pathetic failing criminal justice system, builds more prisons, stops the indoctrination of our kids in schools with trans / lgbtq crap, significantly reduces petrol and diesel prices, sorts out our energy crisis, puts an end to the covid emergency law once and for all, scraps all this green nonsense, stops giving Ukraine shit loads of cash when our pensioners are starving and freezing, increases disability benefit so disabled people can actually have some semblance of existence and tells the truth more often than not then i might vote for her.
Reality is that none of the above will get done though. Like it won't under Labour.
Could of saved yourself a job there, the last paragraph was enough.
There's no political party in this country that could even guarantee you 15% of that wish list.
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If Truss sorts out the NHS properly and not just chucking money at it, makes GP's do a full time job for their ridiculous salaries, stops illegal migrants coming over on dinghies, raises the minimum wage to £15 which is bare minimum what it should be, sorts out the woke police force and the pathetic failing criminal justice system, builds more prisons, stops the indoctrination of our kids in schools with trans / lgbtq crap, significantly reduces petrol and diesel prices, sorts out our energy crisis, puts an end to the covid emergency law once and for all, scraps all this green nonsense, stops giving Ukraine shit loads of cash when our pensioners are starving and freezing, increases disability benefit so disabled people can actually have some semblance of existence and tells the truth more often than not then i might vote for her.
Reality is that none of the above will get done though. Like it won't under Labour.
Could of saved yourself a job there, the last paragraph was enough.
There's no political party in this country that could even guarantee you 15% of that wish list.
Haha you've got a fair point there DD.
Reality is though that they need to otherwise they've failed but just my view.
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Survation poll today.
Q1 Who would you vote for in a GE today:
Lab 43%
Con 33%
Q2. Who would you vote for in a GE today with Keir Starmer as Lab leader and Liz Truss as Con leader.
Lab 46%
Con 29%
Who was it who was lecturing me a few months ago that the Tories would bounce back when they got rid of Johnson?
Not sure who you refer to (not me) but would it not have been a more sensible thing to wait a few weeks and see what this PM can muster, a poll before she has announced anything and not even sat in the chair is worthless (but keeps them all in business)
You would look quite foolish if the polls start to change in the next few weeks, Even Truss could have some sort of dead cat bounce.
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How pleased are you that Liz Truss is the next PM
22% pleased
50% disappointed
Confidence in her cost of living policies?
19% confident
67% not confident
YouGov all adults
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1566819013375758336
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Wilts, I don’t think anyone will have confidence in any of the proposed cost of living solutions that are being bandied about.
It will need a miracle worker to sort out the mess we are facing right now.
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Priti Patel has resigned. Who'd know any different?!
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Patel isn't snarlingly nasty enough. Braverman is going to replace her.
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Patel isn't snarlingly nasty enough. Braverman is going to replace her.
That would be a significant improvement Billy. Patel epitomises the Tories. All mouth, no action.
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Pound hits its lowest ever level in history on Bloomberg's comparison index.
That's what the markets think about her:
https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1566848247506821120
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I can't think of a time or at least in my lifetime when the opposition have been virtually handed the keys to number 10 on a silver plate by doing absolutely nothing what so ever .
The latest PM rolled out by the Tories on what seems like some revolving door policy just about in my opinion guarantees a Labour government at the next GE .
Even by this country's diminishing standards there isn't anyway Dizzy Lizzy could ever win over the electorate and win a GE , even 61k plus 20% of abstentions or spoilt ballot papers of Tory members didn't want her and her opponent was a brown man ffs , holds a Green Card in the US , his wife doesn't pay tax here and he's the biggest socialist chancellor since 1945 .
Even the vast majority of the parliamentary Tory Party don't want her .
The only real question is how long she will last .
Not long in my opinion .
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"I can't think of a time or at least in my lifetime when the opposition have been virtually handed the keys to number 10 on a silver plate by doing absolutely nothing what so ever."
In fairness, it would have taken a spectacular effort on Labour's part to have lost in 1997.
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She has said within a week she will have a response to the energy crisis.
The judgement begins in one week.
Will it be the right thing to do? Will it be enough?
We shall see.
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"I can't think of a time or at least in my lifetime when the opposition have been virtually handed the keys to number 10 on a silver plate by doing absolutely nothing what so ever."
In fairness, it would have taken a spectacular effort on Labour's part to have lost in 1997.
I'm always reminded of the time the Tories turned on Thatcher .
She just beaten Heseltine in the first round of the Tory leadership .
She said to a close advisor , " I've beaten them , I told you I would "
The advisor remarked " yes Margaret you did but a 1/3 of the Party don't want you "
She was gone within a week .
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Wilts, I don’t think anyone will have confidence in any of the proposed cost of living solutions that are being bandied about.
It will need a miracle worker to sort out the mess we are facing right now.
Both the Labour Party and Energy industry have come up with (broadly) similar ideas. If reports are correct she is determined to reject them both.
Energy supplies companies are making £billions in profits, CEO's are getting an average 39% pay rise, city financiers are receiving £1 million bonuses. I know what my solution would be.
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She has said within a week she will have a response to the energy crisis.
The judgement begins in one week.
Will it be the right thing to do? Will it be enough?
We shall see.
Word on the street is Dizzy Lizzy is going to be offering loans to those on lower or mid incomes to be paid back when prices drop ( if they do ) and then added to your bill .
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She has said within a week she will have a response to the energy crisis.
The judgement begins in one week.
Will it be the right thing to do? Will it be enough?
We shall see.
Word on the street is Dizzy Lizzy is going to be offering loans to those on lower or mid incomes to be paid back when prices drop ( if they do ) and then added to your bill .
Madness
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She has said within a week she will have a response to the energy crisis.
The judgement begins in one week.
Will it be the right thing to do? Will it be enough?
We shall see.
Word on the street is Dizzy Lizzy is going to be offering loans to those on lower or mid incomes to be paid back when prices drop ( if they do ) and then added to your bill .
Madness
I'd be up for it. If the banks weren't so bloody impossible to get money out of then people would have more options financially. Banks went from lending to all and sundry to lending to nobody. Also, pay day lenders such as Wonga etc went out of business too leaving many people with no options at all.
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She has said within a week she will have a response to the energy crisis.
The judgement begins in one week.
Will it be the right thing to do? Will it be enough?
We shall see.
Word on the street is Dizzy Lizzy is going to be offering loans to those on lower or mid incomes to be paid back when prices drop ( if they do ) and then added to your bill .
Madness
I'd be up for it. If the banks weren't so bloody impossible to get money out of then people would have more options financially. Banks went from lending to all and sundry to lending to nobody. Also, pay day lenders such as Wonga etc went out of business too leaving many people with no options at all.
You would be up for paying £ 000's more than necessary on your energy bill for the next 10 + years just so that energy suppy companies could keep their £ billions in profits!!!!
You're on you own on that one.
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Read it wrong. Thought you meant cost of living loans.
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Susie Dent twitter
''Word of the day is Zugzwang [tzoog-tzwung]: a situation in chess (and life) in which a move must be made, but each possible one will make the situation worse''
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Phrase of the day:
'We will deliver, we will deliver, we will deliver'
Christ. Another brain dead dumb ass air head. Amazingly she is running the country.
Had enough of nonsense slogans with Bozo.
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I can't believe what some of today's papers are saying, that Truss is going to freeze the price cap right up to the next GE. Even Keith only suggested 6 months.
If that were to happen, which I can't see, would it make a difference in the polls?
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If the Tory leadership election had to use the same rules as a Trade Union does for legal strike action she'd have fallen short of the required percentage to reach number 10 .
This despite Tory members able to vote electronically which is illegal when balloting Union members for industrial action .
Democracy eh !!!!
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Johnson and Truss are taking two separate flights to Scotland to meet the Queen, another waste of tax payers money in a time of crisis!
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Perhaps she’s worried he might ‘come on to her’ & he’s worried she might ‘come on to him’?
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Johnson and Truss are taking two separate flights to Scotland to meet the Queen, another waste of tax payers money in a time of crisis!
Come on Filo, we can’t risk losing 2 great Statespersons in 1 plane crash. The Nation would come to a standstill without their mega brains.
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Did she mention cheese imports in her speech yesterday? I seem to remember it being of great importance to her.
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Can I also congratulate the Power companies for coming up with a scheme to help with the Cost of Living crises, whereby individuals can amass significant debt by taking out loans that will take decades for some to pay off, if ever.
So much more straightforward than taxing Power companies obscene profits or, dare I say it, taxing the Super Rich!!
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Like Patel before her, Dorries has jumped before she was pushed.
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Like Patel before her, Dorries has jumped before she was pushed.
She’s going to the Lords (Lord help them) and Johnson may be switched to her constituency as he’s liable to lose his own.
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Can I also congratulate the Power companies for coming up with a scheme to help with the Cost of Living crises, whereby individuals can amass significant debt by taking out loans that will take decades for some to pay off, if ever.
So much more straightforward than taxing Power companies obscene profits or, dare I say it, taxing the Super Rich!!
I really am starting to think that Truss is a long term sleeper agent who has just been activated with a mission to destroy the Tory party.
Just stop and think how this is going to play electorally.
1) In normal market conditions, energy companies (production and supply) make adequate profits when household consumers are paying an average of about £1000/year.
2) Because of Putin declaring economic war on Russia, energy SUPPLY companies relying on gas can only make a profit if the average cost per household goes up to about £5,000/year.
3) At that figure, the energy PRODUCTION companies are making stupendous profits, because they can now sell their gas at 5 times what they could last year.
4) Truss's plan, according to briefings, is to cap the consumer's average cost at £2000/year. That means her Govt will give the energy supply companies a repayable loan of £3000 for every household.
5) That loan is to be paid back. And the supply companies will finance it by not bringing down the £2000 price they'll be charging consumers, even when the price of energy that they could make a profit on falls below this. So it's basically consumers who will be paying.
6) But here's the rub. Truss says she won't touch the billions of pounds of excess profits that BP and Shell are making. So effectively, she's taking money out of your and my pockets and stuffing it into BP's and Shell's.
When people realise that, this is going to destroy her credibility before she even starts. I do get that the Tories have for years assumed their supporters are too thick to realise they are being played, but this is so staggeringly obvious.
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Plus, this approach is about the most regressive possible.
It basically says "We have a national emergency. Government will cover the cost now, but every household using average amounts of energy will pay back exactly the same amount, whether they are millionaires or minimum wagers".
The repayment mechani effectively makes this another Poll Tax.
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Like Patel before her, Dorries has jumped before she was pushed.
She was one of Truss' main backers and in the list of cabinet members published at the weekend. Summat gone on since.
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Phrase of the day:
'We will deliver, we will deliver, we will deliver'
Christ. Another brain dead dumb ass air head. Amazingly she is running the country.
Had enough of nonsense slogans with Bozo.
No different from Tony Blair’s “education, education, education,” eh?
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This energy plan is a right load of w**k. Daylight robbery on a national scale.
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Phrase of the day:
'We will deliver, we will deliver, we will deliver'
Christ. Another brain dead dumb ass air head. Amazingly she is running the country.
Had enough of nonsense slogans with Bozo.
No different from Tony Blair’s “education, education, education,” eh?
It must be a Tory thing.
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They keep finding these magic money trees don't they .
Theresa May couldn't have looked hard enough.
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Phrase of the day:
'We will deliver, we will deliver, we will deliver'
Christ. Another brain dead dumb ass air head. Amazingly she is running the country.
Had enough of nonsense slogans with Bozo.
No different from Tony Blair’s “education, education, education,” eh?
No different at all. Blair is a tit and Labour under the current structure and personnel are a dead loss. I won't be voting Tory or Labour for some considerable time. I rarely vote Tory but i very much doubt i ever will again out of principle for what they did to people during Covid. I can't ever forgive that tbh.
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Are the 54 letters in to Graham Brady yet .
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
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Aspiration Nation?
Who's her speech writer? Musical Youth?
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Given the cost of the package that is supposedly getting set out at the moment to help with the country's energy bills around £100bn .
Could anyone hazard an educated guess and tell me if it would or wouldn't be cheaper just to nationalise the energy industry ?
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Great friend of Vlad and the Saudis, is owd Liz;
https://declassifieduk.org/liz-truss-approved-289m-of-uk-exports-with-potential-military-use-to-russia-before-ukraine-invasion/
Good to know she has favours in the bank, ready to call in.
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Like Patel before her, Dorries has jumped before she was pushed.
She was one of Truss' main backers and in the list of cabinet members published at the weekend. Summat gone on since.
Lots of MPs backed Truss, it doesn't mean they get rewarded with a job, especially when they've proved utterly unfit to be given one.
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The people who'll be most outraged by her plan will be those who lean conservative. It demonstrates the very essence of failure of corporate entities in some way. Cap the cost, fine with that the consumer has to be protected. Loans to companies to fund it, also fine with that, they'll have to take the pain when profits return.
But how many will fail and never pay that loan back? If you don't get the money back you may as well nationalise the lot. Also the producers need to feel the pain and windfall taxes must be appropriate in that environment. Something that the whole world needs to align on and that will never happen.
But, given what many and labour call for, it shouldn't be something many of you criticise it's largely what you've called for.
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Great friend of Vlad and the Saudis, is owd Liz;
https://declassifieduk.org/liz-truss-approved-289m-of-uk-exports-with-potential-military-use-to-russia-before-ukraine-invasion/
Good to know she has favours in the bank, ready to call in.
15- all your serve
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/letter-reveals-intelligence-ties-between-blairs-britain-and-gaddafis-libya
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What Labour called for was for private energy production companies to use some of their massive profits to subsidise the taxpayer.
What we appear to be getting is the taxpayer subsidising the massive profits of the energy production companies.
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Here's the new Chancellor lying through his teeth just before the last election.
12:06 here.
https://youtu.be/Sdc7ou1TxOs
Once more, this really didn't used to happen in years gone by. Now it's standard among Tory ministers.
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What Labour called for was for private energy production companies to use some of their massive profits to subsidise the taxpayer.
What we appear to be getting is the taxpayer subsidising the massive profits of the energy production companies.
Isn't that what has been happening for years with Tax credits top ups and UC top ups? The likes of multi-billionaire companies like McDonalds paying their staff minimum wage and then those staff getting their wages topped up by low income benefits at the taxpayers expense? Instead of getting these huge companies to pay their staff a decent living wage.
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Therese Coffey is health secretary!! God have mercy on my soul. Mind you, the size of her, she could get a job as an NHS nurse and fit in no probs.
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What Labour called for was for private energy production companies to use some of their massive profits to subsidise the taxpayer.
What we appear to be getting is the taxpayer subsidising the massive profits of the energy production companies.
Isn't that what has been happening for years with Tax credits top ups and UC top ups? The likes of multi-billionaire companies like McDonalds paying their staff minimum wage and then those staff getting their wages topped up by low income benefits at the taxpayers expense? Instead of getting these huge companies to pay their staff a decent living wage.
How do you get huge companies to pay their staff a decent living wage?
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Great friend of Vlad and the Saudis, is owd Liz;
https://declassifieduk.org/liz-truss-approved-289m-of-uk-exports-with-potential-military-use-to-russia-before-ukraine-invasion/
Good to know she has favours in the bank, ready to call in.
15- all your serve
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/letter-reveals-intelligence-ties-between-blairs-britain-and-gaddafis-libya
Quite so, CLH, quite so.
Blair was very supportive of the interests of BP in Russia as well, and canvassed Putin on their behalf.
No-one would suggest that Blair was other than a compromised figure, of low moral standing.
The point is that Truss has form as well, and that will be reflected in her priorities.
Keep in mind that Liz was once a Shell employee, when she finally explains her energy plans.
It will be interesting to see if the interests of Shell are knocked back, or supported!
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What Labour called for was for private energy production companies to use some of their massive profits to subsidise the taxpayer.
What we appear to be getting is the taxpayer subsidising the massive profits of the energy production companies.
Isn't that what has been happening for years with Tax credits top ups and UC top ups? The likes of multi-billionaire companies like McDonalds paying their staff minimum wage and then those staff getting their wages topped up by low income benefits at the taxpayers expense? Instead of getting these huge companies to pay their staff a decent living wage.
How do you get huge companies to pay their staff a decent living wage?
It's called collective bargaining BB .
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The sheer economic illiteracy of the Tories is quite something to behold.
For 12 years, we've had the lowest interest rates in history. At times, the finance markets were prepared to lend money to the Govt at negative interest rates. The Tory Govt insisted that it was wrong to borrow to invest in the nation's infrastructure. We endured the worst decade for growth of living standards since the Napoleonic Wars.
Now inflation is rising and interest rates are going up. That is precisely NOT the time to be borrowing loads and pouring it into the economy. Because you risk inflation exploding and your currency collapsing. Plus you have to pay higher interest on your borrowing.
So have a guess what the new PM and Chancellor have said they are going to do?
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What Labour called for was for private energy production companies to use some of their massive profits to subsidise the taxpayer.
What we appear to be getting is the taxpayer subsidising the massive profits of the energy production companies.
Isn't that what has been happening for years with Tax credits top ups and UC top ups? The likes of multi-billionaire companies like McDonalds paying their staff minimum wage and then those staff getting their wages topped up by low income benefits at the taxpayers expense? Instead of getting these huge companies to pay their staff a decent living wage.
How do you get huge companies to pay their staff a decent living wage?
It's called collective bargaining BB .
So, if as a result of collective bargaining huge companies pay their staff another 5 quid an hour, does that mean the government can knock reduce top-ups accordingly, and relieve the tax payer?
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What Labour called for was for private energy production companies to use some of their massive profits to subsidise the taxpayer.
What we appear to be getting is the taxpayer subsidising the massive profits of the energy production companies.
Subsidising them to make profits of up to £170bn according to...checks notes...the Govt's own predictions.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-30/uk-predicts-up-to-170-billion-excess-profits-for-energy-firms#xj4y7vzkg
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What Labour called for was for private energy production companies to use some of their massive profits to subsidise the taxpayer.
What we appear to be getting is the taxpayer subsidising the massive profits of the energy production companies.
Isn't that what has been happening for years with Tax credits top ups and UC top ups? The likes of multi-billionaire companies like McDonalds paying their staff minimum wage and then those staff getting their wages topped up by low income benefits at the taxpayers expense? Instead of getting these huge companies to pay their staff a decent living wage.
How do you get huge companies to pay their staff a decent living wage?
It's called collective bargaining BB .
So, if as a result of collective bargaining huge companies pay their staff another 5 quid an hour, does that mean the government can knock reduce top-ups accordingly, and relieve the tax payer?
That would work for me BB .
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Tories today are polling at 28% , it took Thatcher to throw 4m on the dole to hit that number .
Dizzy Lizzy has managed it before she formed a cabinet .
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Truss called an imbecile for sacking Johnny Mercer (ex veteran) as Veterans Minster - and accused of giving jobs to her mates.
Hows' the task of 'bringing the party back together again' going then?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11186611/Sacked-veterans-minister-Johnny-Mercers-wife-calls-Liz-Truss-IMBECILE-comparing-Muppet.html
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Therese Coffey is health secretary!! God have mercy on my soul. Mind you, the size of her, she could get a job as an NHS nurse and fit in no probs.
Fat shaming isn’t clever Panda
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Therese Coffey is health secretary!! God have mercy on my soul. Mind you, the size of her, she could get a job as an NHS nurse and fit in no probs.
Fat shaming isn’t clever Panda
I'm not sure she's ashamed.
Obese people should not be working in health professions. They need to set an example.
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Therese Coffey is health secretary!! God have mercy on my soul. Mind you, the size of her, she could get a job as an NHS nurse and fit in no probs.
Fat shaming isn’t clever Panda
I'm not sure she's ashamed.
Obese people should not be working in health professions. They need to set an example.
Should skinny health professionals work with anorexic people?
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Panda so who should work as health professionals. The NHS would be knackered more than it is now with that thinking process. No fat people no diabetics no smokers no drinkers. You can’t obviously just rule out fat people if it’s an example you are looking at. What would constitute someone giving a good example that makes them suitable
Does that also mean the education secretary has to be university educated and couldn’t be a run of the mill person with few qualifications
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Quote of the Day.
https://mobile.twitter.com/estwebber/status/1567176741600346113
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Panda so who should work as health professionals. The NHS would be knackered more than it is now with that thinking process. No fat people no diabetics no smokers no drinkers. You can’t obviously just rule out fat people if it’s an example you are looking at. What would constitute someone giving a good example that makes them suitable
Does that also mean the education secretary has to be university educated and couldn’t be a run of the mill person with few qualifications
Does it also mean the leader of the Labour party shouldn't be a multi-millionaire?
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Panda so who should work as health professionals. The NHS would be knackered more than it is now with that thinking process. No fat people no diabetics no smokers no drinkers. You can’t obviously just rule out fat people if it’s an example you are looking at. What would constitute someone giving a good example that makes them suitable
Does that also mean the education secretary has to be university educated and couldn’t be a run of the mill person with few qualifications
careful phil, that's dangerously close to woke
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Truss called an imbecile for sacking Johnny Mercer (ex veteran) as Veterans Minster - and accused of giving jobs to her mates.
Hows' the task of 'bringing the party back together again' going then?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11186611/Sacked-veterans-minister-Johnny-Mercers-wife-calls-Liz-Truss-IMBECILE-comparing-Muppet.html
Much as I try not to click on any link to the Mail or the Sun, I’m glad I clicked on that.
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Steady Syd that’s not going to happen
You raise a good point BB
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The sheer economic illiteracy of the Tories is quite something to behold.
For 12 years, we've had the lowest interest rates in history. At times, the finance markets were prepared to lend money to the Govt at negative interest rates. The Tory Govt insisted that it was wrong to borrow to invest in the nation's infrastructure. We endured the worst decade for growth of living standards since the Napoleonic Wars.
Now inflation is rising and interest rates are going up. That is precisely NOT the time to be borrowing loads and pouring it into the economy. Because you risk inflation exploding and your currency collapsing. Plus you have to pay higher interest on your borrowing.
So have a guess what the new PM and Chancellor have said they are going to do?
The thing is this dates back to when Cameron and Osborne got voted in.
The international scene was set for growth with international governments, the IMF and World Bank agreed on low debt costs to fuel recovery through growth after the Great Recession.
What did Cameron and Osborne do? Precisely nothing to stimulate growth. In football terms, a missed open goal. Instead, they focused on a particularly vindictive policy of paring back the state to pay for deficit reduction while subbing their electoral base with pension triple locks and tax breaks. However, all this did was leave our social fabric tattered and a deficit consistently refinanced onto longer term debt which, until now, the markets have been largely content to tolerate.
To be fair to May, Johnson and, now, Truss, they have all had to work with this legacy. An economic legacy made worse by Brexit by the way.
The markets are now seeing through this. A structurally weakened economy at odds with it's main trading partner, particularly exposed to volatile energy costs (because we didn't have an appropriate energy strategy), led by a government that wants to borrow more, in part so it can facilitate tax cuts!
A mess.
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Panda so who should work as health professionals. The NHS would be knackered more than it is now with that thinking process. No fat people no diabetics no smokers no drinkers. You can’t obviously just rule out fat people if it’s an example you are looking at. What would constitute someone giving a good example that makes them suitable
Does that also mean the education secretary has to be university educated and couldn’t be a run of the mill person with few qualifications
Yeah fair points Phil. I was being a bit facetious. I guess a nurse can still do her / his job effectively if overweight and i shouldn't judge them for it but i draw the line at being lectured by docs and nurses about living a healthy lifestyle if they too are not exactly the epitome of health.
I'm overweight and it is a combination of psychological factors and simply putting too much food in my mouth.
I went to my docs for a blood test last year and the new nurse was huge, had a face ballooned like a beetroot and was sweating profusely and had laboured breathing. Like she was in the throes of giving birth! It wasn't a pleasant experience for me. Then they have the cheek to weigh you during a healthcheck and advise you on losing a few pounds and getting some exercise! No lie.
On health secretaries. How is it even possible to get anything done or plan anything when they keep changing.
Matt Hancock, Sajid Javid, Steve Barclay and now Therese Coffey in the space of a few years. Lunacy. Give it until the GE then there will be another one! Yet they want to address the issues in the NHS and with health inequality! Not gonna happen with turnover like that.
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Panda you’re right about changing health secretary all the time. All these departments need consistency. With the best will in the world it’s going to be a mammoth task to sort the NHS before sn election. I think the best we can hope for is that it starts to go in the right direction. It is a mess at the minute. We’ve just been notified that our GP surgery is closing next year. It’s ok though they’ve told us not to worry.
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Also, Truss needs to address disability benefits. If someone can't work due to disability then they should get the equivalent of a minimum wage full time job as that is what they would get as a minimum if they were able to work.
How can people live off the paltry amounts that are paid to disabled people?
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Also, Truss needs to address disability benefits. If someone can't work due to disability then they should get the equivalent of a minimum wage full time job as that is what they would get as a minimum if they were able to work.
How can people live off the paltry amounts that are paid to disabled people?
your right about the money the problem is so many people play the system it ruins it for the ones that genuinely need it
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Also, Truss needs to address disability benefits. If someone can't work due to disability then they should get the equivalent of a minimum wage full time job as that is what they would get as a minimum if they were able to work.
How can people live off the paltry amounts that are paid to disabled people?
your right about the money the problem is so many people play the system it ruins it for the ones that genuinely need it
Disagree. If you've tried to get disability benefits, or know anyone who has, you'll know that the days of getting signed off for years with a bad back are long gone. The system now is almost impenetrable for even people with serious, genuine illness and disability let alone anyone swinging the lead.
If anyone tells me these days that they are on disability benefit then i absolutely 100% know that they must be seriously impaired and unable to work whereas 15 or so years ago i'd have looked at them with scepticism.
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Well, Truss doubled and trebled down on "no Windfall Tax" today.
That is politically insane. It gives Labour their 2024 election posters on a plate. "Truss let BP and Shell pocket £2500 per second in unearned profits that YOU and your kids are paying for."
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Well, Truss doubled and trebled down on "no Windfall Tax" today.
That is politically insane. It gives Labour their 2024 election posters on a plate. "Truss let BP and Shell pocket £2500 per second in unearned profits that YOU and your kids are paying for."
Something i DO agree with Billy. Yes, we need help with energy but this way of doing it is typical Tory and not the right way.
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BST you might be right if what she does fails. If she is a success (and I’m no economist so I’m like everyone else just guessing what I think) then Labour will struggle.
She has 2 years to turn it around.
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This by The Treasury today.
"The Chancellor updated the Governor on his growth and fiscal strategies, noting that reforms which create the conditions for a high-growth economy can help to alleviate inflationary pressures."
That is possibly THE most astonishing thing the Treasury has ever published. There is no established economic theory, or practical example of "reforms" giving high growth and low inflation. Kwarteng has been in the job 24 hours and he's imposed voodoo economics on the Treasury.
The damage this could do is difficult to describe. It is the same argument that the Tory Chancellor Anthony Barber used in the 1972 Budget, which led directly to the inflation explosion of the 1970s, which itself led to 20 years of high unemployment.
I can see what they are doing. Like Barber before them, they are going for a splurge of money pumped into the economy in order to get a boom roaring before the Election. And to f**king hell with anything after that. I'm hoping the Governor of the BoE has told Kwarteng some basic economic truths.
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Used to have a nice big pad in Wentbridge Anthony Barber, a nice bloke too.
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Absolute car crash of a Chancellor. Worst since the War, but Kwarteng sounds like he wants to give him a run for his money.
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It must be absolutely sickening for the Lefties on here to have the new Primeminister make a supportive and very positive statement regarding Doncaster Airport during her very first Question time.
Ah well never mind!
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It wasn’t mentioned sproty until you brought that to the table.
I doubt that she will be given any time to prove herself.
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Billy, he knew how to make money, and was the director and chairman of some of the biggest companies in the country, and had a successful career and life.
Give it a break buddy, it was the working man and unions led by communists with an agenda to bring down the governments of the time that caused the troubles in the UK at the time.
The unions in the motor trade even brought down the labour Government of Callaghan over the 9% maximum wage rise imposed wanting 14% for Ford workers when Labour MPs voted with the Tories, and gobbled Thatcher's trap.
Labour wins the next election companies will leave these shores and investment will stop, jobs will be lost it happens every time labour win an election.
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BST what’s your miracle cure for our current situation
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Shelby don’t be silly everyone knows that the only solution to the UK and it’s problems is a Labour government led by a man that just objects to everything and promises anything knowing he will probably never have to deliver
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Selby apologies for the Shelby
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It wasn’t mentioned sproty until you brought that to the table.
I doubt that she will be given any time to prove herself.
Yes it's easy to have a pop when you know you haven't got a prayer of ever having to be in the 'Hot Seat'
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BST you might be right if what she does fails. If she is a success (and I’m no economist so I’m like everyone else just guessing what I think) then Labour will struggle.
She has 2 years to turn it around.
The thing is phil, I could have bet on that before you announced it, what we don't know is what truss is qualified in as wiki is blank on that bit, but if you were confronted with a choice of spending your last quid on a sandwich or trying to double it at the bookies for fish and chips what would you do?
The bit about having 2 years to prove herself? 2 years to gamble all on something that economists are already rubbishing.
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BST what’s your miracle cure for our current situation
Invent a time machine. Go back to 2010 and tell anyone even thinking of Austerity that we'd have the worst economic growth in 200 years over the next decade.
That'd be a start.
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Absolute car crash of a Chancellor. Worst since the War, but Kwarteng sounds like he wants to give him a run for his money.
didn't realise you were so old to remember you must be in your 80's (and the rest) otherwise it's heresay
out of interest i just checked him out and you will be both amazed and humbled to what he actually did as I was . [
People were people then.
wilts will certainly respect him when he reads the sp on him
http://www.donny.co.uk/Doncaster/news/?ID=1133
now what is the recipe for humble pie
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Selby.
Barber may well have been brilliant at making money for himself.
It's a matter of historical fact that he was an utter disaster as Chancellor.
And the signs so far are that Kwarteng and Truss want to repeat his madcap dash for growth.
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Hang on tight it's going to be a full on with no holds barred till the next election.
''Liz Truss’s chief of staff brings key figures from lobbying firm into No 10
Mark Fullbrook asserts grip on Downing Street by giving senior roles to founding members of Fullbrook Strategies''
''The political consultant, a former longtime colleague of the election strategist Lynton Crosby, was appointed to the most senior role in Truss’s team this week, having previously worked on the failed leadership campaign of Nadhim Zahawi.
Senior advisory roles in No 10 have now also gone to Mac Chapwell and Alice Robinson, both founding members of his lobbying firm, Fullbrook Strategies.
The company, which launched in the spring, has lobbied the UK government on behalf of clients including the controversial Libyan parliament and a firm that won a £680m PPE deal in the pandemic.
Two more senior No 10 staff, Beatrice Timpson, the deputy press secretary, and Reuben Solomon, a digital adviser, have done stints at CT Group, Crosby’s political consultancy, where Fullbrook worked for over a decade''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/07/liz-trusss-chief-of-staff-brings-key-figures-from-lobbying-firm-into-no-10
This is going to be a dirty fight with full cooperation from the yellow press.
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Syd from your sarcastic comment I assume you’re putting your self up as a self claimed economic expert.
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Syd from your sarcastic comment I assume you’re putting your self up as a self claimed economic expert.
Not at all phil, but what I do know is that 2 years is way too long for people to wait for relief with energy bills, people are struggling now and have been for some time and require some certainty. I would suggest that the government needs to demonstrate capability with short term fixes such as a freeze on bills coupled with and paid for partly by windfall taxes and then have some other longer term plans such as greater incentives to insulate and expand the heat pump installation program in homes.
The energy retail market and distribution networks requires some major reforms and possibly a return to public ownership, the government has fannied around with short term fixes and fixed nothing, with modern software, metering and solid management public ownership and performance can be monitored much more easily than in the past to ensure that the admin margins do not blow out with excessive executive pay and make sure that the distribution system is maintained.
But my thinking is the new government will want a fight just as much if not more than the johnson government did and the solutions selected will highly favour its voting bloc. It is already flying kites to see what the public will accept. The newly hired spin team are not there to give the long suffering public a fair go and complete the task of levelling up, they are there to pick the battles and decide how and where they should be fought to continue to divide the nation give the truss what they think will be the best chance at the next election.
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I despair. I really do.
This country's prospects have been ruined by this disaster of a government since they came to office in 2010.
And we're now completely f***ed
They've got every big decision wrong.
Austerity
A complete disaster that shelved growth and had zero effect on its objective ie to reduce the national debt.
This weakened our economy and put a squeeze on all of us, when they could have borrowed money then at zero interest rates to get growth moving
So... Let's blame the EU and foreigners said the Tory Brexiteers
So we voted for Brexit.
Despite what Brexiteers say this has and will continue to be a disaster for our economy. Where's the sense in alienating our near neighbours, while trying to get a trade deal with Australia FFS?
Now we have a nutcase in charge who will borrow billions at God knows what interest rate rather than take money from companies who don't deserve it and will only give it to their shareholders.
And that's not even mentioning them putting a buffoon like Johnson in charge.
And there's still people on here who support them.
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I’m on the fence about windfall tax Syd I can see both sides of the argument
I do 100% agree with you that there needs to be incentives to get homes properly insulated and boiler systems upgraded. I dread to think how much energy and heat is being wasted
It amazes me how many people have short memories. Apparently all this started in 2010 with the Tories. I’m sure there’s been common knowledge about needing to insulate houses and being more energy efficient for years. Which Labour governments also failed to address
This country is an island surrounded by sea. Why are we not investing in hydro and wind power.
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I’m on the fence about windfall tax Syd I can see both sides of the argument
I do 100% agree with you that there needs to be incentives to get homes properly insulated and boiler systems upgraded. I dread to think how much energy and heat is being wasted
It amazes me how many people have short memories. Apparently all this started in 2010 with the Tories. I’m sure there’s been common knowledge about needing to insulate houses and being more energy efficient for years. Which Labour governments also failed to address
This country is an island surrounded by sea. Why are we not investing in hydro and wind power.
As far as the long suffering British public is concerned I would think that the polls are correct and the vast majority think there is only one argument, a windfall tax, which is not as stated elsewhere on here an increase, but a tax on the massive profits that have effectively 'fallen from the sky' onto these lucky companies that choose to base their operations in relatively safe countries such as the UK, the US, almost anywhere in the EU rather than Afghanistan, North K, Iran, Russia etc.
There is no impediment to investment from a windfall tax, think of trying to stand in the way of a fossil fuel company and a new gas/oil field.
As Billy says put part of this money into renewables of any sort on behalf of the British people as an investment for the future. Especially those kids born around May 2010 that are now working out their futures and have only known tory governments.
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I’m on the fence about windfall tax Syd I can see both sides of the argument
I do 100% agree with you that there needs to be incentives to get homes properly insulated and boiler systems upgraded. I dread to think how much energy and heat is being wasted
It amazes me how many people have short memories. Apparently all this started in 2010 with the Tories. I’m sure there’s been common knowledge about needing to insulate houses and being more energy efficient for years. Which Labour governments also failed to address
This country is an island surrounded by sea. Why are we not investing in hydro and wind power.
Why do you say the Labour Govt failed to address this?
Labour instigated a massive project to increase the number of houses with adequate lift and cavity wall insulation. The project doubled the houses adequately insulated from about 35% to about 70%.
That project ran until 2012. It was Labour's policy to extend it, but they lost the 2010 election. Cameron killed it and we've done next to nothing since (although the Tories do like to claim credit for the doubling of insulated homes between the early 2000s and now).
All that is established fact. I could post the figures but I know some people go all Neanderthal when we start dealing with graphs.
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For as long as I can remember and I go back to starting work in 1978 so I can only really comment on the time I've lived and work in .
The problem with this country and now more than any other time all we've ever done is stick plasters on big open wounds , short termism and gets us to the next election mandates without ever getting to the root cause of anything , kicking the can down the road and let future generations pick up the tab and the consequences .
Thatcher trashing industry and making up the shortfall by selling off everything we owned .
Blair getting the taxpayer to pay people a living wage and not touch profits too much are just two examples .
And here we are again today with my grandkids aged 3 and 1 picking up the tab for my and your energy bill whilst the energy companies profit at £170bn pa .
Truss joins Thatcher and Blair in the Short Term Club , what did they care at the time ? , they wouldn't be around when the chickens came home to roost would they ?
This country and its electorate who are just as culpable including myself need to have a good fecking word with themselves and start treating the future generations with some thought and respect .