Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: GazLaz on May 15, 2024, 01:45:45 pm
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Just looking through the end of season player data and in a comparison these two lads are remarkably similar in output. Maybe the Craig replacement is already here.
Craig carries out slightly more defensive actions per 90 than Close- 21.48 vs 17.5 but Close has a higher success rate at 72.5 vs 60.6.
In possession very very similar although close does his work a bit higher up the pitch.
Looking forward to seeing Close in (potentially) a better team best season.
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I see Craig and Close as two very different players - it would have been interesting to see them in the side together.
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His stats maybe good but Close is nowhere near the player Craig is but I have not data to back that up just from watching. Hope I am proved wrong about Close I really do but he is not up to the fight, he goes missing and most of his passes go sideways or backwards..know who I would pick every time and it is not Close.
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Might be a barmy suggestion, but I've been pondering whether Close would be capable of playing the Biggins role if he leaves? Very different players but I think Close's quality in the final third is decent, and it would take some of the pressure off him having to do the defensive stuff.
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Might be a barmy suggestion, but I've been pondering whether Close would be capable of playing the Biggins role if he leaves? Very different players but I think Close's quality in the final third is decent, and it would take some of the pressure off him having to do the defensive stuff.
Not quite got the athleticism.
I’ve always thought Close is at his best progressing into the final third. He’s less effective if his starting position is too high up the pitch and probably not a natural sitter. He may play where Bailey has been playing with Bailey sitting. We can then get a runner on the left of the three.
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The impression I’ve got from what Grant has previously stated is that Broadbent will play where Craig played.
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The impression I’ve got from what Grant has previously stated is that Broadbent will play where Craig played.
Then God help us all.
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The impression I’ve got from what Grant has previously stated is that Broadbent will play where Craig played.
He’s showed no signs of being good enough has he. He can improve, that’s not out of the question, but the improvement would have to come pretty quickly.
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The impression I’ve got from what Grant has previously stated is that Broadbent will play where Craig played.
He’s showed no signs of being good enough has he. He can improve, that’s not out of the question, but the improvement would have to come pretty quickly.
Certainly not to do that role. Maybe as backup to Bailey, although currently I'd be inclined to loan out Broadbent and find another option.
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Gazlaz - what does the data say about Broadbent? I really want him to be an important player for us but we have not seen it yet. Is there any statistical evidence to suggest he might come good?
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I’m not suggesting he can, only going on Grant’s opinion of him.
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Craig carries out slightly more defensive actions per 90 than Close- 21.48 vs 17.5
That's not 'slightly more', it's something like a 21/23% difference.
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Just looking through the end of season player data and in a comparison these two lads are remarkably similar in output. Maybe the Craig replacement is already here.
Craig carries out slightly more defensive actions per 90 than Close- 21.48 vs 17.5 but Close has a higher success rate at 72.5 vs 60.6.
In possession very very similar although close does his work a bit higher up the pitch.
Looking forward to seeing Close in (potentially) a better team best season.
I don’t think that data can take account of the willingness of players to challenge for the ball. In this respect Craig was always in the thick of it. Close never seemed to risk injury (perhaps wisely), but nevertheless was not as exciting or effective. I shall never be convinced that you can make the ultimate comparisons with data alone.
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Might be a barmy suggestion, but I've been pondering whether Close would be capable of playing the Biggins role if he leaves? Very different players but I think Close's quality in the final third is decent, and it would take some of the pressure off him having to do the defensive stuff.
Not quite got the athleticism.
I’ve always thought Close is at his best progressing into the final third. He’s less effective if his starting position is too high up the pitch and probably not a natural sitter. He may play where Bailey has been playing with Bailey sitting. We can then get a runner on the left of the three.
Fair enough.
Any on your radar that you'd go for in that Biggins role if he goes?
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Just looking through the end of season player data and in a comparison these two lads are remarkably similar in output. Maybe the Craig replacement is already here.
Craig carries out slightly more defensive actions per 90 than Close- 21.48 vs 17.5 but Close has a higher success rate at 72.5 vs 60.6.
In possession very very similar although close does his work a bit higher up the pitch.
Looking forward to seeing Close in (potentially) a better team best season.
I don’t think that data can take account of the willingness of players to challenge for the ball. In this respect Craig was always in the thick of it. Close never seemed to risk injury (perhaps wisely), but nevertheless was not as exciting or effective. I shall never be convinced that you can make the ultimate comparisons with data alone.
And therein lies the X factor that needs human observation. Craig's impact on the game could have made opposing players adjust what they were doing to try and negate him thus leading to fewer opportunities to improve his stats.
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Just looking through the end of season player data and in a comparison these two lads are remarkably similar in output. Maybe the Craig replacement is already here.
Craig carries out slightly more defensive actions per 90 than Close- 21.48 vs 17.5 but Close has a higher success rate at 72.5 vs 60.6.
In possession very very similar although close does his work a bit higher up the pitch.
Looking forward to seeing Close in (potentially) a better team best season.
I don’t think that data can take account of the willingness of players to challenge for the ball. In this respect Craig was always in the thick of it. Close never seemed to risk injury (perhaps wisely), but nevertheless was not as exciting or effective. I shall never be convinced that you can make the ultimate comparisons with data alone.
Defensive actions takes into account ground duels, areal duels, tackles, interceptions etc. I have the breakdown of them all. Success rates at each, % of team contribution of each. Close isn’t bad without the ball.
It’s natural for fans to gravitate towards a player who smashes three tackles a game as opposed to someone, Bostock for example, who intercepts 9, 10, 11 times a game through great positioning, winning the ball back with the chance of buildings attacks.
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Just looking through the end of season player data and in a comparison these two lads are remarkably similar in output. Maybe the Craig replacement is already here.
Craig carries out slightly more defensive actions per 90 than Close- 21.48 vs 17.5 but Close has a higher success rate at 72.5 vs 60.6.
In possession very very similar although close does his work a bit higher up the pitch.
Looking forward to seeing Close in (potentially) a better team best season.
I don’t think that data can take account of the willingness of players to challenge for the ball. In this respect Craig was always in the thick of it. Close never seemed to risk injury (perhaps wisely), but nevertheless was not as exciting or effective. I shall never be convinced that you can make the ultimate comparisons with data alone.
Defensive actions takes into account ground duels, areal duels, tackles, interceptions etc. I have the breakdown of them all. Success rates at each, % of team contribution of each. Close isn’t bad without the ball.
It’s natural for fans to gravitate towards a player who smashes three tackles a game as opposed to someone, Bostock for example, who intercepts 9, 10, 11 times a game through great positioning, winning the ball back with the chance of buildings attacks.
Something I coached a hell of a lot where not many kids liked a tackle so I taught them about shadowing players and stealing ball or blocking off passing lanes. Made a huge difference to those who couldn't or didn't like a tackle.
Same applies to the adult game. Tackling is a skill in itself, Craig and Bailey were top notch at 1v1 duals and leaving something on the opposition player.
You need clever players in there that see an early pass or read the oppo players body language and get possession back that way.
Close is that type of player but that side of the game doesn't get noticed.
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Just looking through the end of season player data and in a comparison these two lads are remarkably similar in output. Maybe the Craig replacement is already here.
Craig carries out slightly more defensive actions per 90 than Close- 21.48 vs 17.5 but Close has a higher success rate at 72.5 vs 60.6.
In possession very very similar although close does his work a bit higher up the pitch.
Looking forward to seeing Close in (potentially) a better team best season.
I don’t think that data can take account of the willingness of players to challenge for the ball. In this respect Craig was always in the thick of it. Close never seemed to risk injury (perhaps wisely), but nevertheless was not as exciting or effective. I shall never be convinced that you can make the ultimate comparisons with data alone.
Defensive actions takes into account ground duels, areal duels, tackles, interceptions etc. I have the breakdown of them all. Success rates at each, % of team contribution of each. Close isn’t bad without the ball.
It’s natural for fans to gravitate towards a player who smashes three tackles a game as opposed to someone, Bostock for example, who intercepts 9, 10, 11 times a game through great positioning, winning the ball back with the chance of buildings attacks.
Exactly the conversation I had with an ex Footballer yesterday - fans have a tendancy to bias towards those 'crowd pleasing' actions rather than the more impactful but 'understated' actions.
I've been having a look at match action data and can see, as Gaz has repeatedly suggested, that you can build something that will give a more objective view on a player's impact
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Just looking through the end of season player data and in a comparison these two lads are remarkably similar in output. Maybe the Craig replacement is already here.
Craig carries out slightly more defensive actions per 90 than Close- 21.48 vs 17.5 but Close has a higher success rate at 72.5 vs 60.6.
In possession very very similar although close does his work a bit higher up the pitch.
Looking forward to seeing Close in (potentially) a better team best season.
I don’t think that data can take account of the willingness of players to challenge for the ball. In this respect Craig was always in the thick of it. Close never seemed to risk injury (perhaps wisely), but nevertheless was not as exciting or effective. I shall never be convinced that you can make the ultimate comparisons with data alone.
Defensive actions takes into account ground duels, areal duels, tackles, interceptions etc. I have the breakdown of them all. Success rates at each, % of team contribution of each. Close isn’t bad without the ball.
It’s natural for fans to gravitate towards a player who smashes three tackles a game as opposed to someone, Bostock for example, who intercepts 9, 10, 11 times a game through great positioning, winning the ball back with the chance of buildings attacks.
Exactly the conversation I had with an ex Footballer yesterday - fans have a tendancy to bias towards those 'crowd pleasing' actions rather than the more impactful but 'understated' actions.
I've been having a look at match action data and can see, as Gaz has repeatedly suggested, that you can build something that will give a more objective view on a player's impact
It’s a game of interceptions now not tackles.
So many biases built in to humans. Some players just get favoured because of how they look. A player with a distinctive hair cut can stand out more that someone who blends in.
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We played better when Close was injured than when he played.
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For me I do see Close and Craig as similar, but I like what I've seen of Craig more. I hope Close can do better than I think he can, but am concerned that relying on Close could be next seasons Lawlor as number 1 this season moment. Craig will have a top career in my opinion. Hard to replace.
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We played better when Close was injured than when he played.
That's certainly not true of the first 2/3rds of the season.
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We played better when Close was injured than when he played.
That's certainly not true of the first 2/3rds of the season.
We did in the last 20 games though Billy when Close and Westbrooke were side lined. Putting Bailey and Craig together after Bradford game were Close got injured turned our season round.
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The impact that generative AI will have ( is having ) is beyond my education and this beyond my comprehension but am interested on hearing you guys on the topic sometime on here ( please) .For instance with Generative AI could you input all the data from an opposition team of individuals and develop an intelligent game plan to counter them?
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Close is good on the ball so he does fit the profile of the deeper midfield role that Craig played and if alongside Bailey you’ve someone who does the dirty work.
I’m not sure we will sign a better permanent midfielder on the ball for that role. Whilst we could get another loanee who fills the role it does seem very hit and miss.
On Broadbent I only see him as playing the box to box role. He needs a good preseason
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The impact that generative AI will have ( is having ) is beyond my education and this beyond my comprehension but am interested on hearing you guys on the topic sometime on here ( please) .For instance with Generative AI could you input all the data from an opposition team of individuals and develop an intelligent game plan to counter them?
Yes it happens now. England Rugby have just started using it.
You can model potential signings into your team to see how they will impact the team. Eg. We have a shortlist of 5 players to replace Moly, we could run 10,000 game simulations for each player to monitor their output in our system/ alongside our existing players, then prioritise the most suited.
We have a match outcome model that uses individual player data as opposed to team data to churn out probable outcomes. This then essentially trains itself as it goes along. These are processes that are eventually going to take over how all clubs are run.
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If I was a defender I would not want Close anywhere in front of me. If it is stats you want just look at points won before and after Close got injured.
The Kings Lynn No 8 asked if he could play against him every match please.
If nothing else he is a jinx if they do stats for that.
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Close is not similar to Craig, very very different players, Craig is an extremely good all rounder, and very combative. Interesting stats that seem to have them in a similar place though!
Close is more Brian Stock like, keeps the ball moving and dictates the play, my only gripe with Close is at times that dictation in play can be too slow. I do like him as a player though, very good quality for this level.
I do worry about the midfield as it really worked with Bailey, Craig and the attacking press from Biggins. What we are left with is not the same.
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I have faith that Grant will ensure the midfield will be as good if not better than we finished. With Close Westbrooke and Broadbent has back ups
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People are genuinely forgetting earlier in the season when Close was the only thing we had going for us to either score or create a goal.
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Just looking through the end of season player data and in a comparison these two lads are remarkably similar in output. Maybe the Craig replacement is already here.
Craig carries out slightly more defensive actions per 90 than Close- 21.48 vs 17.5 but Close has a higher success rate at 72.5 vs 60.6.
In possession very very similar although close does his work a bit higher up the pitch.
Looking forward to seeing Close in (potentially) a better team best season.
I don’t think that data can take account of the willingness of players to challenge for the ball. In this respect Craig was always in the thick of it. Close never seemed to risk injury (perhaps wisely), but nevertheless was not as exciting or effective. I shall never be convinced that you can make the ultimate comparisons with data alone.
100% agree.
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Elliott Watt is available.
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We played better when Close was injured than when he played.
We played better when Close was injured than when he played.
That's certainly not true of the first 2/3rds of the season.
We did in the last 20 games though Billy when Close and Westbrooke were side lined. Putting Bailey and Craig together after Bradford game were Close got injured turned our season round.
Prior to the end of Jan we played better & got better results when Close played, the turn around after Jan was mainly down to the lads brought in during the Jan window!
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He played in 20 league 2 games before he got injured we won 8. Yes the team improved after January transfer window but the midfield was far better from that point
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It's less definite to say the team played better without Close, but more definite to say the team played better with TLT, Starry, Maxwell, Anderson, Wood and Craig. All our other players benefitted for having that settled back 5 plus Craig's presence. Who's to say Close had he been fit, wouldn't have also had that better platform to perform? It also seemed to work for Biggins with Molyneux also getting progressively better.
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He played in 20 league 2 games before he got injured we won 8. Yes the team improved after January transfer window but the midfield was far better from that point
He was also involved in 2 draws in that 20 plus he basically got our season started with his late winner at Forest Green followed in the next game by scoring both goals against Gillingham!
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We played better when Close was injured than when he played.
That's certainly not true of the first 2/3rds of the season.
We did in the last 20 games though Billy when Close and Westbrooke were side lined. Putting Bailey and Craig together after Bradford game were Close got injured turned our season round.
Apples and oranges.
Close never played in a team with a settled defence, with TLT, with Bailey in his proper position, with Adelakun up front, and rarely with Wood playing.
He played 20 matches before his season ended, in which we got 26 points. Not stellar, but in the 8 he was absent in that time we won none, drew 2 and lost 6.
Make your own conclusions.
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I think the odd 5/10 yard square or backwards pass and a couple of fluke goals help people look at this player through rose coloured glasses.
Not only was he a part of a poor side the first half of the season and injured for much of the rest, but he has been a large contributor to two poor seasons before and also missed many games injured in those seasons.
It is just a carry on career the same as he had at Portsmouth in a team that underachieved and the supporters also commenting on their forum about the games he regularly missed through injury.
The goals he scores can be negated by the holes around D of our penalty area he vacates and the opposition regularly take advantage of and his complete lack of physicality and tactical fouls when the opposition attack his defensive area.
The results since his absence speaks volumes.
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I think the odd 5/10 yard square or backwards pass and a couple of fluke goals help people look at this player through rose coloured glasses.
Not only was he a part of a poor side the first half of the season and injured for much of the rest, but he has been a large contributor to two poor seasons before and also missed many games injured in those seasons.
It is just a carry on career the same as he had at Portsmouth in a team that underachieved and the supporters also commenting on their forum about the games he regularly missed through injury.
The goals he scores can be negated by the holes around D of our penalty area he vacates and the opposition regularly take advantage of and his complete lack of physicality and tactical fouls when the opposition attack his defensive area.
The results since his absence speaks volumes.
And the results in his absence in the first 2/3rds of the season? What do they say?
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Billy, he was part of a team 3rd/4th bottom of the league in the new year, and relegated the season before, dumped out of cup competitions by u21 sides and non league teams and you would bet your house on him and trying to make a case for him against a lad who played in a record time of results for the club, yeh ok.
And to add to that you can add probably one of the most inept displays by any player v Kings Lynn, when their number ten if he had not checked his pockets before returning to their team bus would have taken him home with him, and going out of EFL cup games to u21s sides.
We need new and better, some of the process has started, and sorry but he has to come a long way to win me over no matter what stats say, he has had no more than a couple of really good games since he arrived here, and flatters to deceive. Get in his face and be physical and he is poor, take him on and you go past. too easily, and rarely plays the killer ball.
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My own conclusion:
Waste of time comparing as Craig is so far ahead of him.
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Selby
You are drifting off into a totally different question.
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No disrespect to the Selby kid but I'm pleased Grant McCann is our manager - I trust him to pick the players for our team.
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On that I agree with you Bessie, but even Pep makes mistakes and has sacked some off in short time when they don't do the business, and Close hasn't here.
I hope against hope he converts me, but he has a lot to do.
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We all have opinions on players and most of us amateurs are likely to be way off beam.
I think the football played today is very different from that played say 20 years ago when Penny took Rovers through the two promotions.
For what it's worth (and that ain't much!!) Craig busied himself in front of the back four - he made himself available and rarely gave away possession. I see Close being a more creative player and better suited to a more forward role. I would say neither Craig or Close are 'midfield destroyers' as some might coin a phrase but its more about positioning in the press when the opposition have the ball.
I never saw John Oster as a tackler but he was worth his weight for his creativity and the balance of the team when he played in it.
I would have liked to see Close and Craig in the same team - but then again me being me it may not have worked at all!
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A good point on Oster Bessie , he was a superb player for us but I have to agree with Selby , Close won't get us out of this division we need better
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"The Selby kid". By God, Brian, there's a compliment there.
I'm sure if Bessie saw me, he or she would be impressed by my eternal youthful looks.
Then again.......
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We all have opinions on players and most of us amateurs are likely to be way off beam.
I think the football played today is very different from that played say 20 years ago when Penny took Rovers through the two promotions.
For what it's worth (and that ain't much!!) Craig busied himself in front of the back four - he made himself available and rarely gave away possession. I see Close being a more creative player and better suited to a more forward role. I would say neither Craig or Close are 'midfield destroyers' as some might coin a phrase but its more about positioning in the press when the opposition have the ball.
I never saw John Oster as a tackler but he was worth his weight for his creativity and the balance of the team when he played in it.
I would have liked to see Close and Craig in the same team - but then again me being me it may not have worked at all!
I agree with all that. Sometimes players are better complimented by others and teams spend time and money looking for those elusive combinations where the sum is better than the parts.
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Elliott Watt is available.
Signed for Burton Albion.
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What are the stats for having the stomach and aggression for a midfield battle in league 2?
Craig = X Close = anything at all?