Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: Chris Black come back on February 01, 2025, 07:02:18 pm
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Today was league game 121 in charge of us and league win 56. That is a win ratio of just over 46 per cent. If you turn up to watch Rovers under McCann you can expect a league win pretty much once every two games.
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Today was league game 121 in charge of us and league win 56. That is a win ratio of just over 46 per cent. If you turn up to watch Rovers under McCann you can expect a league win pretty much once every two games.
I think that’s why the club put a high price on his head should anyone want his and Cliffs Services ..
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We can't have had that many better in terms of win % I can't imagine.
Penney's was 47%. O'Driscoll's 36% (but most of those games in the Championship), Flynn was 50% but only over a 20-game sample.
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We can't have had that many better in terms of win % I can't imagine.
Penney's was 47%. O'Driscoll's 36% (but most of those games in the Championship), Flynn was 50% but only over a 20-game sample.
Never mind the win percentages, McCann has some way to go emulate Penney, Ferguson or O’Driscoll. He hasn’t actually even achieved promotion yet!
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We can't have had that many better in terms of win % I can't imagine.
Penney's was 47%. O'Driscoll's 36% (but most of those games in the Championship), Flynn was 50% but only over a 20-game sample.
Never mind the win percentages, McCann has some way to go emulate Penney, Ferguson or O’Driscoll. He hasn’t actually even achieved promotion yet!
yes he’s failed twice and he has still not found a decent goal scorer .
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For context Darren Moore's win ratio was 45%.
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I think the difference is that certainly this time round, McCann walked into an absolute shitshow. It took him the best part of last season to turn that around. Moore didn’t and Penney didn’t. SOD certainly didn’t.
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We can't have had that many better in terms of win % I can't imagine.
Penney's was 47%. O'Driscoll's 36% (but most of those games in the Championship), Flynn was 50% but only over a 20-game sample.
Never mind the win percentages, McCann has some way to go emulate Penney, Ferguson or O’Driscoll. He hasn’t actually even achieved promotion yet!
I don't dispute that for one second. Doesn't change that he's one of our best-performing managers on this particular metric though.
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Win ratios.... :lol:
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We can't have had that many better in terms of win % I can't imagine.
Penney's was 47%. O'Driscoll's 36% (but most of those games in the Championship), Flynn was 50% but only over a 20-game sample.
Never mind the win percentages, McCann has some way to go emulate Penney, Ferguson or O’Driscoll. He hasn’t actually even achieved promotion yet!
I don't dispute that for one second. Doesn't change that he's one of our best-performing managers on this particular metric though.
This was evident for the stats, but he has been well resourced this season at least and until promotion is achieved it remains merely a statistic. In fact, if we do not begin next season in League 1 it will remain a “metric” of little value.
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Just thinking back.
That run started a year ago this week.
Since then, we've won 93 points from 46 games. Clear title winning form most years. The past 12 months must rank in the top handful we've ever had. Weird in that context that there's been so little entertainment in the home games this season.
But.
If we do make automatic promotion this year, that'll be nearly a season and a half that we'll have been in top 2-ish form. That would mean going up with quite some momentum.
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I think the difference is that certainly this time round, McCann walked into an absolute shitshow. It took him the best part of last season to turn that around. Moore didn’t and Penney didn’t. SOD certainly didn’t.
Moore did. A significant number of key players left in the summer of 2019, some of their own accord, some encouraged out the door by McCann before he himself left. Moore was left with a pretty threadbare squad.
I know Moore isn't popular with a lot of people, but we should give him his dues, he did well with what he inherited in that Covid curtailed season, and then exceeded expectations in the first half of 2020-21.
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Yes he did really well by giving Alfie away.
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I think the difference is that certainly this time round, McCann walked into an absolute shitshow. It took him the best part of last season to turn that around. Moore didn’t and Penney didn’t. SOD certainly didn’t.
Moore did. A significant number of key players left in the summer of 2019, some of their own accord, some encouraged out the door by McCann before he himself left. Moore was left with a pretty threadbare squad.
I know Moore isn't popular with a lot of people, but we should give him his dues, he did well with what he inherited in that Covid curtailed season, and then exceeded expectations in the first half of 2020-21.
Moore inherited a very difficult situation.
Yes we'd been in the playoffs the season before. But he took over with a month to go before the start of the season and the squad shorn of the following key players from the previous year.
Marosi
Butler
Andrew
Rowe
Kane
Wills
and Marquis who was never re-signing.
It was total rebuild time. And within 6 months he had got us playing some of the sharpest and most successful football I've ever seen from a Rovers team. At L1 level he was tactically 3 years ahead of what was coming. Now nearly everyone on the lower leagues starts with possession at the back and looks for fast, accurate short passing and movement. When Moore introduced it to us, it was like nothing we'd ever seen before.
I know how he left us. I get that. But the vitriol he gets, in the context of what he actually did as a manager is WAY overdone and I've never got why that is.
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Yes he did really well by giving Alfie away.
And once again. May was a available for the entire 2018/19 season. McCann chose to start him in just 8 league games.
He then dropped a division and scored a grand total of 15 goals in his first 58 league appearances. Steady but hardly earth shattering.
The line spun in here that it was blindingly obvious that May would blossom into what he became is absolute cack.
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Moore inherited what was probably a mid-table League One squad. McCann inherited at best a bottom half League Two squad. We can disassociate the fact that Moore hugely overachieved during his time with us (although left a squad in structural decline once the loans were stripped out) from the fact that he inherited a solid but unspectacular squad of League One journeymen.
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I think the difference is that certainly this time round, McCann walked into an absolute shitshow. It took him the best part of last season to turn that around. Moore didn’t and Penney didn’t. SOD certainly didn’t.
Moore did. A significant number of key players left in the summer of 2019, some of their own accord, some encouraged out the door by McCann before he himself left. Moore was left with a pretty threadbare squad.
I know Moore isn't popular with a lot of people, but we should give him his dues, he did well with what he inherited in that Covid curtailed season, and then exceeded expectations in the first half of 2020-21.
Moore inherited a very difficult situation.
Yes we'd been in the playoffs the season before. But he took over with a month to go before the start of the season and the squad shorn of the following key players from the previous year.
Marosi
Butler
Andrew
Rowe
Kane
Wills
and Marquis who was never re-signing.
It was total rebuild time. And within 6 months he had got us playing some of the sharpest and most successful football I've ever seen from a Rovers team. At L1 level he was tactically 3 years ahead of what was coming. Now nearly everyone on the lower leagues starts with possession at the back and looks for fast, accurate short passing and movement. When Moore introduced it to us, it was like nothing we'd ever seen before.
I know how he left us. I get that. But the vitriol he gets, in the context of what he actually did as a manager is WAY overdone and I've never got why that is.
You've just reiterated my point with more words.
The strongest marker of what the summer departures meant comes when you look at the Rovers line-up for the play-off semi-final at Charlton. Moore only had three of that starting XI at his disposal at the start of the following season.
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Moore also gave Watters away who then sold for a million quid six months later. He apparently never once watched the U18s train never mind play a match. Not to mention the first team players making complaints about his lack of timekeeping and training sessions being boring.
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I think the difference is that certainly this time round, McCann walked into an absolute shitshow. It took him the best part of last season to turn that around. Moore didn’t and Penney didn’t. SOD certainly didn’t.
Moore did. A significant number of key players left in the summer of 2019, some of their own accord, some encouraged out the door by McCann before he himself left. Moore was left with a pretty threadbare squad.
I know Moore isn't popular with a lot of people, but we should give him his dues, he did well with what he inherited in that Covid curtailed season, and then exceeded expectations in the first half of 2020-21.
Moore inherited a very difficult situation.
Yes we'd been in the playoffs the season before. But he took over with a month to go before the start of the season and the squad shorn of the following key players from the previous year.
Marosi
Butler
Andrew
Rowe
Kane
Wills
and Marquis who was never re-signing.
It was total rebuild time. And within 6 months he had got us playing some of the sharpest and most successful football I've ever seen from a Rovers team. At L1 level he was tactically 3 years ahead of what was coming. Now nearly everyone on the lower leagues starts with possession at the back and looks for fast, accurate short passing and movement. When Moore introduced it to us, it was like nothing we'd ever seen before.
I know how he left us. I get that. But the vitriol he gets, in the context of what he actually did as a manager is WAY overdone and I've never got why that is.
We lost Paul Downing from that squad as well. Very important defender for us at that time.
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We can't have had that many better in terms of win % I can't imagine.
Penney's was 47%. O'Driscoll's 36% (but most of those games in the Championship), Flynn was 50% but only over a 20-game sample.
Never mind the win percentages, McCann has some way to go emulate Penney, Ferguson or O’Driscoll. He hasn’t actually even achieved promotion yet!
yes he’s failed twice and he has still not found a decent goal scorer .
Ironside was pretty decent last season don't you think?
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Yes he did really well by giving Alfie away.
And once again. May was a available for the entire 2018/19 season. McCann chose to start him in just 8 league games.
He then dropped a division and scored a grand total of 15 goals in his first 58 league appearances. Steady but hardly earth shattering.
The line spun in here that it was blindingly obvious that May would blossom into what he became is absolute cack.
Absolutely spot on. I guess those that obviously knew otherwise have fantastic jobs in football player scouting.
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Yes he did really well by giving Alfie away.
And once again. May was a available for the entire 2018/19 season. McCann chose to start him in just 8 league games.
He then dropped a division and scored a grand total of 15 goals in his first 58 league appearances. Steady but hardly earth shattering.
The line spun in here that it was blindingly obvious that May would blossom into what he became is absolute cack.
Absolutely spot on. I guess those that obviously knew otherwise have fantastic jobs in football player scouting.
Some people on this forum said that May would never score many goals in League One, and had found his level in League Two. On the other hand, some of us said he showed great potential and, given the chance, and played in the right position he would prove those doubters wrong.
It was his doubters that were talking cack.
.... And some of them still are.
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Yes he did really well by giving Alfie away.
And once again. May was a available for the entire 2018/19 season. McCann chose to start him in just 8 league games.
He then dropped a division and scored a grand total of 15 goals in his first 58 league appearances. Steady but hardly earth shattering.
The line spun in here that it was blindingly obvious that May would blossom into what he became is absolute cack.
Absolutely spot on. I guess those that obviously knew otherwise have fantastic jobs in football player scouting.
You could be right, I would have been happier than in my job of management. It was obvious that Alfie had more in his locker, just needed the opportunity.
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He was not as good as the players we had here at the time in the same positions, that is why he didn't get the opportunities here.
He went to a club where he did get the opportunity and did well, the best of luck to the lad.
If he had stayed here another year the chances are two fold, he could have done as well here which would have been great, or could have ended up back in non league, as he had managers who plainly didn't fancy him and Covid lay ahead.
In hindsight he could well have been a very lucky boy, but has proved he deserved that luck.
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It was patently obvious to me BD. I had to get one right.
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He was not as good as the players we had here at the time in the same positions, that is why he didn't get the opportunities here.
He went to a club where he did get the opportunity and did well, the best of luck to the lad.
If he had stayed here another year the chances are two fold, he could have done as well here which would have been great, or could have ended up back in non league, as he had managers who plainly didn't fancy him and Covid lay ahead.
In hindsight he could well have been a very lucky boy, but has proved he deserved that luck.
May didn't get the opportunity because both Marquis and Williams before him were successful strikers, and it would have been considered a case of fixing something that wasn't broken if May had been given a proper chance in front of them.
Darren Moore then came in and despite Williams and then Marquis' departure, decided May could leave for peanuts, regarding Rakish Bingham and Kwame Thomas as better options!
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He was not as good as the players we had here at the time in the same positions, that is why he didn't get the opportunities here.
He went to a club where he did get the opportunity and did well, the best of luck to the lad.
If he had stayed here another year the chances are two fold, he could have done as well here which would have been great, or could have ended up back in non league, as he had managers who plainly didn't fancy him and Covid lay ahead.
In hindsight he could well have been a very lucky boy, but has proved he deserved that luck.
May didn't get the opportunity because both Marquis and Williams before him were successful strikers, and it would have been considered a case of fixing something that wasn't broken if May had been given a proper chance in front of them.
Darren Moore then came in and despite Williams and then Marquis' departure, decided May could leave for peanuts, regarding Rakish Bingham and Kwame Thomas as better options!
Hard to believe that he thought those two were better than Alfie.
Why does anyone think he picked them first?
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Did May depart before they arrived.?
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He was not as good as the players we had here at the time in the same positions, that is why he didn't get the opportunities here.
He went to a club where he did get the opportunity and did well, the best of luck to the lad.
If he had stayed here another year the chances are two fold, he could have done as well here which would have been great, or could have ended up back in non league, as he had managers who plainly didn't fancy him and Covid lay ahead.
In hindsight he could well have been a very lucky boy, but has proved he deserved that luck.
May didn't get the opportunity because both Marquis and Williams before him were successful strikers, and it would have been considered a case of fixing something that wasn't broken if May had been given a proper chance in front of them.
Darren Moore then came in and despite Williams and then Marquis' departure, decided May could leave for peanuts, regarding Rakish Bingham and Kwame Thomas as better options!
Hard to believe that he thought those two were better than Alfie.
Why does anyone think he picked them first?
They convinced DM that they believed the Bible to be factually correct?
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Are we really doing the Alfie May argument again!
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Mmm, well some people keep bringing the last government into conversations.
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Did May depart before they arrived.?
They all left at pretty much exactly the same time. Rakish Bingham signed in November 2019 and left in January 2020. Kwame Thomas signed in October 2019 and left in January 2020. Alfie May left in January 2020.
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Bingham and Thomas replaced May in the team on several occasions during November and December season 2019/20, during which Thomas played 2 full games and Bingham played 1. May played 0 full games. Both Bingham and Thomas made 3 starts, and May made 1 but was replaced in the second half.
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It would be interesting to take the Cheltenham view of Alfie May’s development. My memory is that no one doubted his work-rate when he was at the Keepmoat, but it wasn’t difficult to recognise that for all his commitment the end product was inadequate.
That didn’t change until he went to Cheltenham. Should not the probability that it was the coaching he received there which transformed his ability?
If this is so, you could reasonably conclude that Moore’s decision was soundly based.
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Playing him in the right position helped at Cheltenham
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Your regular, boringly factual reminder that the 14 months after Moore sold May were one of the best in our history, in terms of points gathered at the level played at.
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Playing him in the right position helped at Cheltenham
Scoring against Man City in the cup helped him at Cheltenham. A massive confidence boost that gave him self-belief. Hasn’t looked back since.
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Your regular, boringly factual reminder that the 14 months after Moore sold May were one of the best in our history, in terms of points gathered at the level played at.
So we improved as a team because we sold a fringe player who barely played a full match for us?
:facepalm:
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Thus justifying the sale of that fringe player...
BobG
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Thus justifying the sale of that fringe player...
BobG
Why does it?
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Your regular, boringly factual reminder that the 14 months after Moore sold May were one of the best in our history, in terms of points gathered at the level played at.
You didn't rate him Billy we all get that, some of us did and it's right we defend our opinion as it is yours, boring as you may find it
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Your regular, boringly factual reminder that the 14 months after Moore sold May were one of the best in our history, in terms of points gathered at the level played at.
You didn't rate him Billy we all get that, some of us did and it's right we defend our opinion as it is yours, boring as you may find it
Wrong
I did rate him. I thought he was a model pro and a hard worker. I am genuinely chuffed to bits for the lad that he's done so well, and he seems to be a genuinely good lad.
My issue is with this absolute obsession from some that it was obvious he was going to become a top goal scorer and that Moore made a catastrophic mistake in getting rid of him. I think it's massively overdone.
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Theres not a living soul who's not 100% delighted for the career Alfie May is having, but why are some obsessed he would have done that with us . Nothing is guaranteed. Sliding doors and all that . Football is littered with players who have left one club and gone on to have decent or even spectacular careers. Many never thought Brian Deane had much about him, Jack Lester couldn't have hit a cows arse with a banjo yet with us on loan yet played at high level for years after . Man City let deBrunye go and Cole Palmer for that matter . It happens, if we kept every fans favourite on off chance he turned into a world beater we'd have a cast of thousands
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But he did, and Moore was wrong. Obsession works both ways Billy JMHO
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RR.
In the 13 months after May left, the lad was scoring at the rate of about 1 in 4 in the bottom division.
Meanwhile, Moore's team had the following form at the top of L1.
P38 W23 D5 L10 PTS74 PPG1.95 (equivalent to 90 points over a season).
I suspect that, outside 1946/47, we've never had form like that in tier 3 for such a long time.
I look at that and find it very difficult to conclude Moore made a serious mistake.
What are we supposed to do? Hang on to EVERY peripheral player in case they turn their career around?
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In the end it is one of those that we will never know the answer to. Alfie has done extremely well since he left us, whether he would have become as good if he stayed who knows? We wish him well and move on, just as we did when Heffernan, Billy and Marquis left. I am happy with our present squad for this season and will enjoy it when we beat Chesterfield tonight with a semi-competent ref in charge I hope!
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Well said, love what Alfie has done but I hope this is the last time it triggers the usual suspects
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A very pious hope that Plumbster... Just look at #38, 39 and 40 above. On the one hand he is alleged to be a fringe player who had no impact on the squad that performed better than any squad since 46/47 and on the other we should have kept him all along. Talk about having your cake and eating it...
BobG
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And look at reply 44.
Of course we will never know, but we might have had an even better run of form and points collection had Alfie been retained.
Some people are obsessed with trying not to give Alfie any credit and will just keep arguing Moore knew best.
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Horses for courses ‘hound, I’m afraid. There was also the Chairman’s influence on finance at the time - we certainly can’t dismiss that.
I’m in both camps, I’m afraid % full of admiration for how Alfie has progressed his career and also I thought DM was a genius for getting us to the level of football we were churning out, when you consider what he was left with!
Also, special mention for DF, as it was him that spotted something special about Alfie in the first place.
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I think we improved as a team because Moore made canny use of a shrinking budget by getting rid of fringe players so he could bring in high quality players like Jacob Ramsey, Josh Sims, Taylor Richards, Ben Whiteman on a better deal, John Bostock, etc etc... anyone putting May in front of any of those lads at the time would've been laughed out of the town (we were still a town back then!).
The way Moore left stinks but he had us operating levels above where we are now, on a relative shoestring budget. May turning out to be a great player two years after he left us doesn't change that. As BST says, we can't keep every player just in case they come good.
May obviously needed a completely different environment with different players, coaching, and a style of play to develop his game. Should Moore have torn up what was a ruthlessly efficient winning system just to suit one fringe player?
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And look at reply 44.
Of course we will never know, but we might have had an even better run of form and points collection had Alfie been retained.
Some people are obsessed with trying not to give Alfie any credit and will just keep arguing Moore knew best.
This.
Of course, it doesn't suit BST's argument to look at the bigger picture of how much May could have improved the team had he stayed, and instead insinuates that the team improved BECAUSE he left, and not DESPITE it.
His obsession with Darren Moore, combined with his bitterness towards those whose talent-spotting skills have been proven to be somewhat significantly better than his, has left him so wounded he still can't admit it to this day that he was so very, VERY wrong to support his hero's decision to get rid of May so cheaply.
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A very pious hope that Plumbster... Just look at #38, 39 and 40 above. On the one hand he is alleged to be a fringe player who had no impact on the squad that performed better than any squad since 46/47 and on the other we should have kept him all along. Talk about having your cake and eating it...
BobG
Point of order..
What is the point of cake, if not for eating.??
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You are what you eat.
BobG likes his fruitcake.