European Union in or out?

[Filo]

It`s out for me, lets start making our own legislation again instead of the Germans and French trying to railroad their own agenda`s

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

In, but in on our terms.  We should aim to have an influence in Europe (we do look how pissed off Sarkozy is by us at the moment) but we shouldn't give as much power to them as we have.  Europe can be a positive but we need to sort out the negatives.

Having said that, I'm unsure I'd lose much sleep if we left Europe.

[Filo]

In, but in on our terms.  We should aim to have an influence in Europe (we do look how pissed off Sarkozy is by us at the moment) but we shouldn't give as much power to them as we have.  Europe can be a positive but we need to sort out the negatives.

Having said that, I'm unsure I'd lose much sleep if we left Europe.

Maybe we should have minded our own business when the Germans steamrollered in to France during WW2! Ungrateful lot those frogs!

[Filo]

Same with the Euro, they want us to contribute to prop up their currency, We never saw any of the Euro currency countries falling over themselves to help the pound when our interest rates went through the roof overnight in the 1980`s, they all wanted the Pound to fail so they could swallow us up into the Euro!

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Same with the Euro, they want us to contribute to prop up their currency, We never saw any of the Euro currency countries falling over themselves to help the pound when our interest rates went through the roof overnight in the 1980`s, they all wanted the Pound to fail so they could swallow us up into the Euro!

Not often I agree with Filo on the politics front, but I don't think there's that many in this country who are pro Europe any more (if many of us were in recent years anyway).  I think the government are right though, it's not the time for the debate on Europe now, the economy should come first and we should use it to  our advantage and ensure we get the most we can out of the Euro mess.

[River Don]

They way things are going I don't think it matters much. Sooner or later the thing will fall apart because it doesn't look like the German taxpayer is going to be prepared to keep bailing out southern Europe (or should I say the French banks).

[Berkshire Rover]

In for trade, out for single currency and the wider political agenda, too much history and cultural differences to make it work.

Plus we should adopt the American model for sports and have a European cup and World series that only English teams that have Doncaster Rovers in their name can enter!

[The Red Baron]

Same with the Euro, they want us to contribute to prop up their currency, We never saw any of the Euro currency countries falling over themselves to help the pound when our interest rates went through the roof overnight in the 1980`s, they all wanted the Pound to fail so they could swallow us up into the Euro!

Not often I agree with Filo on the politics front, but I don't think there's that many in this country who are pro Europe any more (if many of us were in recent years anyway).  I think the government are right though, it's not the time for the debate on Europe now, the economy should come first and we should use it to  our advantage and ensure we get the most we can out of the Euro mess.

I don't agree with the Government at all. Now is exactly the time we need to be discussing such things. Cameron said that \"when your neighbour's house is on fire you help to put it out.\" Maybe, but you might also think about evacuating yourself and your family as well!

Cameron really didn't need to pick a fight over this one. Let the backbenchers let off steam, because the motion- even in the unlikely event of it being passed- doesn't bind the Government to do anything. You can only be \"a rebel\" if you're rebelling against something! And he'll look stupid and lack credibility if he has to call a referendum soon because we're faced with signing up to a new treaty.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Same with the Euro, they want us to contribute to prop up their currency, We never saw any of the Euro currency countries falling over themselves to help the pound when our interest rates went through the roof overnight in the 1980`s, they all wanted the Pound to fail so they could swallow us up into the Euro!

That would have been quite an achievement given the Euro didn't exist until 1999...

[Glyn_Wigley]

I don't mind debate about Europe but the problem is all the anti-Europe myths that get passed round as true...just this morning on the the radio they had a phone-in about it and the weights and measures b*llocks got trotted out yet again as an example of what the EU were trying to impose on us...

[Filo]

Same with the Euro, they want us to contribute to prop up their currency, We never saw any of the Euro currency countries falling over themselves to help the pound when our interest rates went through the roof overnight in the 1980`s, they all wanted the Pound to fail so they could swallow us up into the Euro!

That would have been quite an achievement given the Euro didn't exist until 1999...

Ok then the Exchange rate mechanism, the point still remains though, Germany and France were both praying that the Pound would fail and we`d be forced into European monetary union

[River Don]

Same with the Euro, they want us to contribute to prop up their currency, We never saw any of the Euro currency countries falling over themselves to help the pound when our interest rates went through the roof overnight in the 1980`s, they all wanted the Pound to fail so they could swallow us up into the Euro!

Not often I agree with Filo on the politics front, but I don't think there's that many in this country who are pro Europe any more (if many of us were in recent years anyway).  I think the government are right though, it's not the time for the debate on Europe now, the economy should come first and we should use it to  our advantage and ensure we get the most we can out of the Euro mess.

I don't agree with the Government at all. Now is exactly the time we need to be discussing such things. Cameron said that \"when your neighbour's house is on fire you help to put it out.\" Maybe, but you might also think about evacuating yourself and your family as well!

Cameron really didn't need to pick a fight over this one. Let the backbenchers let off steam, because the motion- even in the unlikely event of it being passed- doesn't bind the Government to do anything. You can only be \"a rebel\" if you're rebelling against something! And he'll look stupid and lack credibility if he has to call a referendum soon because we're faced with signing up to a new treaty.

As far as the three main political parties are concerned there is never a right time for a referendum until the UK public look like voting yes to the EU.

As it is I'm convinced it'll be taken out of their hands because the economic crisis will ensure the political project will fail. Then perhaps the UK  can step in and help organise some form of open European common market that the British public thought we voted for in the first referendum. And that won't be a bad result at all.

[The Red Baron]

I don't mind debate about Europe but the problem is all the anti-Europe myths that get passed round as true...just this morning on the the radio they had a phone-in about it and the weights and measures b*llocks got trotted out yet again as an example of what the EU were trying to impose on us...

It is interesting that one of the signatories to the referendum motion, the former Europe Minister Keith Vaz, has done so because he believes that only a referendum campaign would explode some of these myths.

Personally I'm opposed to closer European Union and believe the current euro crisis is the result of the folly of integrationism. The EU should be what we were told we were joining in 1973 - a trading alliance. However, I think we've gone past the point where we could revert to such an arrangement, because the chosen \"solution\" to the crisis seems to be Fiscal Union. I wonder how the French, Spanish and Italians will react to having their taxation rates set in Berlin? Out for me, but I think the whole structure will collapse sooner or later.

[Glyn_Wigley]

They might have prayed that (not that I believe it) as neither they not the EC did not have the power to do anything else even if they wanted to, as the decision to go in and then pull out of the ERM was taken (and could only be taken) by the British Government alone - the ERM was in existence before and after we were members and I got the impression that they were glad we left...not a good example of being ruled over by Europe, is it?

[Glyn_Wigley]

The EU should be what we were told we were joining in 1973 - a trading alliance.

It was never that, even in 1973. All you have to do is look at the very first cross-Europe organisation - the European Coal and Steel Community - to see that the purpose was intra-national communal decision making, not free trade.

[River Don]

I don't mind debate about Europe but the problem is all the anti-Europe myths that get passed round as true...just this morning on the the radio they had a phone-in about it and the weights and measures b*llocks got trotted out yet again as an example of what the EU were trying to impose on us...

It is interesting that one of the signatories to the referendum motion, the former Europe Minister Keith Vaz, has done so because he believes that only a referendum campaign would explode some of these myths.

Personally I'm opposed to closer European Union and believe the current euro crisis is the result of the folly of integrationism. The EU should be what we were told we were joining in 1973 - a trading alliance. However, I think we've gone past the point where we could revert to such an arrangement, because the chosen \"solution\" to the crisis seems to be Fiscal Union. I wonder how the French, Spanish and Italians will react to having their taxation rates set in Berlin? Out for me, but I think the whole structure will collapse sooner or later.

The French, Italians, Spanish, Irish and Portuguese will react very badly to German austerity. Just as the Greeks are doing now. It can't go on.

[River Don]

The EU should be what we were told we were joining in 1973 - a trading alliance.

It was never that, even in 1973. All you have to do is look at the very first cross-Europe organisation - the European Coal and Steel Community - to see that the purpose was intra-national communal decision making, not free trade.

I agree. The British public voted on a lie then, simple as that.

[The Red Baron]

The EU should be what we were told we were joining in 1973 - a trading alliance.

It was never that, even in 1973. All you have to do is look at the very first cross-Europe organisation - the European Coal and Steel Community - to see that the purpose was intra-national communal decision making, not free trade.

The key phrase there is \"we were told...\" Those who pointed out that the EEC/ Common Market was a gigantic Trojan Horse were demonised by the press and the party leaderships. You still see attempts to do so now - for example, Hague's talk about \"graffiti.\" The problem for our political class now is that Euroscepticism is becoming mainstream opinion.

[The Red Baron]

The EU should be what we were told we were joining in 1973 - a trading alliance.

It was never that, even in 1973. All you have to do is look at the very first cross-Europe organisation - the European Coal and Steel Community - to see that the purpose was intra-national communal decision making, not free trade.

I agree. The British public voted on a lie then, simple as that.

Point of information- we DIDN'T vote to join the EEC in 1973. There was no referendum for the reasons outlined above- Ted Heath feared we might vote NO. There was a referendum in 1975, which was pledged by Labour in their 1974 manifestos, but the bogus arguments about a trading alliance were trotted out then and all the party leaders campaigned for a YES vote. (Anyone remember Maggie in her \"flags of the European Nations\" sweater?)

[River Don]

The EU should be what we were told we were joining in 1973 - a trading alliance.

It was never that, even in 1973. All you have to do is look at the very first cross-Europe organisation - the European Coal and Steel Community - to see that the purpose was intra-national communal decision making, not free trade.

I agree. The British public voted on a lie then, simple as that.

Point of information- we DIDN'T vote to join the EEC in 1973. There was no referendum for the reasons outlined above- Ted Heath feared we might vote NO. There was a referendum in 1975, which was pledged by Labour in their 1974 manifestos, but the bogus arguments about a trading alliance were trotted out then and all the party leaders campaigned for a YES vote. (Anyone remember Maggie in her \"flags of the European Nations\" sweater?)

I admit, it was all before my time.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Point of information. The French and Germans certainly didn't steamroller us into the ERM. We went in because Thatcher and Lawson could see no other way to defeat inflation. Ironic that the arch Eurosceptics, after a decade in power, could think of no other way to strengthen our economy than to tie us to the Deutscmark, but there you go. That decision was perhaps the single biggest economic mistake of the second half of the 20th Century and it was made by no-one but our own politicians.

The EU debate is facile. It revolves around straight bananas and debates about powers that we have apparently lost, although no one ever seems to know what they are, or what power we as a small country would have on our own in a globalised mega economy. It ignores the manifold benefits of being in a trading bloc. It assumes that if we somehow semi-detached ourselves from the EU, we could magically keep all those  benefits whilst undercutting all the other members.

If you were German or French, would YOU stand for the UK having it both ways? Or would you tell us to f**k off and treat us like the rest of the world, imposing tariffs against us and denying us easy access to EU markets? I know what I would do.

[River Don]

BST, honestly, do you think the EU is going to survive this economic crisis in it's current form?

...And if not will it break up and loosen or integrate further?

Just interested.

[Glyn_Wigley]

BST, honestly, do you think the EU is going to survive this economic crisis in it's current form?

...And if not will it break up and loosen or integrate further?

Just interested.

Perhaps it won't, and that might not be a bad thing. It's certainly not perfect: I'd much prefer the elected European Parliament to have more power versus the Commission (especially the power to introduce and vote on proposals), and CAP has needed a rethink and overhauling for years...

[River Don]

c'mon Bill,

You're not one to hide away.

This here union is it doomed or not?

I think it's f***ed.

[The Red Baron]

Point of information. The French and Germans certainly didn't steamroller us into the ERM. We went in because Thatcher and Lawson could see no other way to defeat inflation. Ironic that the arch Eurosceptics, after a decade in power, could think of no other way to strengthen our economy than to tie us to the Deutscmark, but there you go. That decision was perhaps the single biggest economic mistake of the second half of the 20th Century and it was made by no-one but our own politicians.

The EU debate is facile. It revolves around straight bananas and debates about powers that we have apparently lost, although no one ever seems to know what they are, or what power we as a small country would have on our own in a globalised mega economy. It ignores the manifold benefits of being in a trading bloc. It assumes that if we somehow semi-detached ourselves from the EU, we could magically keep all those  benefits whilst undercutting all the other members.

If you were German or French, would YOU stand for the UK having it both ways? Or would you tell us to f**k off and treat us like the rest of the world, imposing tariffs against us and denying us easy access to EU markets? I know what I would do.

Benefits of being in a trading bloc- yes. Benefits of having laws imposed on us- many of them on non-trade related matters- not for me.

And please, keep off the old \"straight bananas\" argument. That is the sort of tired nonsense trotted out by pro-Europeans who don't have the wit to argue the case for membership. I'm surprised you didn't use \"Little Englander\" as well.

One other point about the ERM. I agree that it was a disastrous decision that plunged the UK into a recession, but it was supported by the leaderships of all political parties. Had Labour been in power at the time they would have joined the ERM- probably before the Tory Government did (Thatcher only agreed when threatened with resignations from several Cabinet Ministers) and had they won the General Election in 1992 they would have been faced with the consequences.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Point of information. The French and Germans certainly didn't steamroller us into the ERM. We went in because Thatcher and Lawson could see no other way to defeat inflation. Ironic that the arch Eurosceptics, after a decade in power, could think of no other way to strengthen our economy than to tie us to the Deutscmark, but there you go. That decision was perhaps the single biggest economic mistake of the second half of the 20th Century and it was made by no-one but our own politicians.

The EU debate is facile. It revolves around straight bananas and debates about powers that we have apparently lost, although no one ever seems to know what they are, or what power we as a small country would have on our own in a globalised mega economy. It ignores the manifold benefits of being in a trading bloc. It assumes that if we somehow semi-detached ourselves from the EU, we could magically keep all those  benefits whilst undercutting all the other members.

If you were German or French, would YOU stand for the UK having it both ways? Or would you tell us to f**k off and treat us like the rest of the world, imposing tariffs against us and denying us easy access to EU markets? I know what I would do.

Benefits of being in a trading bloc- yes. Benefits of having laws imposed on us- many of them on non-trade related matters- not for me.

And please, keep off the old \"straight bananas\" argument. That is the sort of tired nonsense trotted out by pro-Europeans who don't have the wit to argue the case for membership. I'm surprised you didn't use \"Little Englander\" as well.

One other point about the ERM. I agree that it was a disastrous decision that plunged the UK into a recession, but it was supported by the leaderships of all political parties. Had Labour been in power at the time they would have joined the ERM- probably before the Tory Government did (Thatcher only agreed when threatened with resignations from several Cabinet Ministers) and had they won the General Election in 1992 they would have been faced with the consequences.

So list me the damaging regulations and laws. And then ask yourself why it should be that countries as successful as Holland, Germany and Sweden all sign up for them? If THEY can run successful economies and societies with these regulations, then why can't we. Are the Dutch not proud of being Dutch? Are the Swedes not proud of being Swedish. Why should WE be so utterly different.

Then, while you're at it, ask yourself how exactly WE are going to insist on a free-trading bloc without the social and regulatory aspects that everyone else signs up to. If WE, here in Britain would get phenomenal benefits by simply opting out such regulations, why should WE be allowed to have the benefits of the trading bloc?

I'll give you a perfect example of the sort of benefit that being in Europe brings. My own company has been part of a nine company consortium, from UK, Italy, Denmark, Sweden, Holland, Poland & Germany that has run a highly successful R&D project, producing a prototype of a new product. Market research done in the USA reckons that there is a market of up to $5billion for this product. And the one that we have produced pisses all over the best that American companies have produced.

None of the partner companies could have afforded to fund the project themselves. No bank would have dreamed of giving us money for a speculative R&D project. No UK research fund would have funded this, and even if they had, the skills weren't there in the UK - the consortium's Swedish and Dutch companies in particular have unique manufacturing facilities. The European Commission's Research Fund matched funding that the companies put up. As a result, we have much. much bigger companies queueing up to buy licences for the IP that we have produced.

This will bring millions of Euros into the European economy, possibly hundreds of millions. And there is NO WAY that this would have happened if the UK had been a semi- or fully-detached member of the EU as the Eurosceptics would have us be. That is the sort of success story that happens day-in day-out and it is vital top our economic well-being. But it's a boring story that doesn't sell papers. Much more interesting to tell us that the European Court of Human Rights won't let us deport coons who have pet hamsters.

[BillyStubbsTears]

c'mon Bill,

You're not one to hide away.

This here union is it doomed or not?

I think it's f***ed.

Not hiding Don - just been to the gym. One needs to get fit for when the collapse happens and we all go feral eh?

Actually, I think it's inevitable that the Eurozone (not the EU) will have to get tighter as a result of this crisis. It's impossible to run a common currency without closer fiscal union.

What scares me to death is that such a close union turns in on itself and puts up barriers against the rest of the world. That would be a disaster for the world - for us it would be a catastrophe.

I think this is the time for Germany to grow up. It's economic success over the last decade has been built on having a strong Europe-wide market. One reason why Germany has done so well is that Greek, Italian, Irish, Spanish and Portuguese folk have been buying Audis and Bosch washers. If those countries have overstretched themselves, then Germany is going to have to pay a fair bit of the whack to get them out of the shite.

The alternative, letting the Euro collapse cannot be allowed to happen, because it would hobble the global economy for a decade, and God alone knows what the consequence would be for the stability of countries themselves. And that is not being melodramatic. Look at the last time we had a major Depression. I forget the exact figures, but in 1930, something like only 3 or 4 countries in Europe were dictatorships, but by 1940, only 3 were democracies. There is no fundamental reason whatsoever why that could not happen again if the European economy (which includes ours) goes tits up. None at all.

That is what makes the fiddling about by the Eurosceptics so stupid. There is no action that we could take that would be more calculated to throw petrol on the flames of the Euro crisis than to start seriously talking about pulling out of the EU, which, apparently, a majority in this country wants us to do. Fortunately, tonight in Parliament was a case of the grown ups saving us from ourselves.

[The Red Baron]

I have no doubt that there are benefits of European co-operation. But let me point you to a counter-example. I work in the NHS and part of my organisation is faced with having to comply with an EU directive from next August. We have concluded that there are annual costs of around £300K to comply with the directive, but no tangible benefits. The directive has been produced simply to satisfy a drive for \"European integration\"- not to mention bureaucratic conformity. That's £300K that could be better spent on patient care.

The answer is surely not more integration, but less. That is the policy of the current Government (at least the Tory bits of it) but no-one can see how that is going to happen when the answer to every problem seems to be closer and closer integration. Like you, I think the \"solution\" to the current Eurozone crisis will be fiscal union, which will probably work out just as you fear.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB. Are you able to tell us the detail of this regulation?

[The Red Baron]

The directive relates to donor organs. I can't really say more than that as it is rather confidential.