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See you speak that much rubbish it's hard to see what you're actually trying to say. This has got nothing to do with O'Driscoll. It's about trials for safe standing.
Benny,Any chance you could answer the questions I asked? In particular your statement that seats are safer than standing? I'm intrigued as to where you get this information from.
There is no economic reason why a seat at a football match should be cheaper than a standing place, the only reason they are is that clubs can get away with it. In fact you can get a seat at a Serie A game in Italy, cheaper than you can stand at some Conference games!
Quote from: \"silent_majority\" post=205880Benny,Any chance you could answer the questions I asked? In particular your statement that seats are safer than standing? I'm intrigued as to where you get this information from.http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-long-haul-to-implement-taylor-report-1087369.html - This article talks about the alcohol fuelled crowds of pre-hillsborough. And touches briefly on Taylors recommendation that the comfort of the spectator (or lack of) was detrimental to crowd safety. Seats?http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/olliewilliams/2009/08/how_violent_your_teams_fans_ar.shtml this is quite interesting. I think, for me, the biggest evidence I can find is the arrest numbers at football. Over 6000 in the season leading up to Hillsborough...while just over 3500 twenty years later. If we are to believe that police numbers have fallen in that period, then I would argue that along with some other improvements, seating has been the single biggest factor in reducing not just people falling over, but in beating each other up too? And considering that the arrest stats for the decade of the 2000's appear to remain fairly static, I would argue that the majority of the decrease ocured in a very shirt space of time after the introduction of seating and then plateu'd.I hope that goes some way to answering your question.
Hang on a minute, you can't have it both ways SM. A load of factual statistics (Arrest numbers pre and post hillsborough) are undeniable, they simply measure arrests at football games. The conclusion from that that I have drawn (accepted, it's my conclusion) is that seating has had a part in that. My interpretation of those stats is as valid as yours surely as you can't find any evidence to disprove what I'm saying either. Seeing as Taylor and varying government \"specialists\" (ie not me and you) all said that seating would go a long way to solving many problems at football grounds, I fail to see who/how/why you or I am to argue?Like I've said before, I couldn't care less if there was a section for people to stand, in fact I think it's good people have the choice, but please don't try to tell me that it's safer than seating, because all these experts seem to disagree with you.
Looking at this selfishly, how would this affect the Keepmoat? I recall Andy Liney saying that we could only get the funding we required for the stadium if it was all-seater. If the SMC/JR rip out all the south stand seats will these bodies want their money back?
I can't believe that you're trying to say that arrest figures don't count in terms of safety at footy games?!!I would have thought the lessening in arrests at football games since seating was introduced meant they were safer?? Isn't that obvious? Or does safety just mean not getting crushed to death? Personally I wouldn't have taken my mum to watch Rovers in the old pop stand, but I have taken her to watch at the KM. Why? Because I thought it was safer.You can't ignore arrest figures in any discourse about safety at football matches, ask anyone apart from you and they'll tell you arrests and disorder at football mean more unsafe events for the punters around and caught up in it. I just cannot believe you are that stupid as to argue about it? Ask anyone involved innocently in any rioting at football games, or any violence at all at matches, if they felt safe..........And when Taylor referred to \"comfort\" at football matches he was in fact meaning the fact that you aren't scared of getting crushed to death by a crowd, or beaten to death by a bunch of thugs.I have zero against people standing in standing areas, I think it's a positive thing for people to have a choice, but statistics, the government, the Taylor report and, most of all, sheer common sense, say that seating dissuades lots of general violence at football games - if only because it is much more difficult to move about and jump into people or go after people in an aggressive manner. It's really not inventing the wheel as a concept is it....but of course, you just HAVE to be right.
Quote from: \"benaldo\" post=206120I can't believe that you're trying to say that arrest figures don't count in terms of safety at footy games?!!I would have thought the lessening in arrests at football games since seating was introduced meant they were safer?? Isn't that obvious? Or does safety just mean not getting crushed to death? Personally I wouldn't have taken my mum to watch Rovers in the old pop stand, but I have taken her to watch at the KM. Why? Because I thought it was safer.You can't ignore arrest figures in any discourse about safety at football matches, ask anyone apart from you and they'll tell you arrests and disorder at football mean more unsafe events for the punters around and caught up in it. I just cannot believe you are that stupid as to argue about it? Ask anyone involved innocently in any rioting at football games, or any violence at all at matches, if they felt safe..........And when Taylor referred to \"comfort\" at football matches he was in fact meaning the fact that you aren't scared of getting crushed to death by a crowd, or beaten to death by a bunch of thugs.I have zero against people standing in standing areas, I think it's a positive thing for people to have a choice, but statistics, the government, the Taylor report and, most of all, sheer common sense, say that seating dissuades lots of general violence at football games - if only because it is much more difficult to move about and jump into people or go after people in an aggressive manner. It's really not inventing the wheel as a concept is it....but of course, you just HAVE to be right.The worst crush I was ever involved in was in a seated area. We couldn't get out of the way. When I say we, I mean men, women and children. The fantastic Slovakian police thought it was a good idea to baton charge a very, very over packed seated area. Where 6,000 of us should have been, it was easy double that figure. No ticket checks, no tickets needed, no stewarding, no bloody organisation in a ground that made Denaby United look like Wembley. I had the delight of having two boys in front of me aged about 11. The police started a baton charge into our area, we couldn't get out of the way...why? Seats...those who tried fell over them. We were crushed in and I did my upmost best to keep one of the little boys head up and could see his little face looking up at me. The police ( I call them police but they were military really) then used the seats to walk on to tower above us waving their batons.Factors all play a part in ground safety and they need to all come together to assure safety. Seating on its own doesn't make grounds safe or safer, people do. There are thousands of sporting events throughout the world on a daily basis involving terracing/standing without incident. There is room in our grounds for both seating and terracing. After Hillsborough, people’s attitude to football violence changed. We don't want it anymore and I would say that factor helped in a drop in arrests post Hillsborough. Another factor is the policing has got a little bit less confrontational, in this country anyway.Don't shoot me down here, but didn't seating at Bradford contribute to the tragedy because people couldn’t escape quickly?
I don't think SM that I've ever ever ever suggested at all in the slightest, and you know it but can't make a point any other way than by slurring the other person, that the supporters were at fault for Hillsborough!! What a stupid thing to suggest. It's a bit nasty actually. I really hope I don't get taken to task over it or seating at football grounds will be the least of your worries.Tell you what, how about you back up your claims with some stats? No?
Tell you what, how about you back up your claims with some stats? No?
I thought the seating and the barriers prevented a riot. From my seat I saw the Millwall fans struggle to get to the Rovers fans because of a section of metal barriers and an empty block of seating. Had the away end and the north west corner been terraced it would have prevented no barrier at all.