David Cameron

[Sprotyrover]

Just seen him morphing into Thatcher on TV, Pity he aint got her Balls!!!!

[Norfolk N Chance]

Just seen him morphing into Thatcher on TV, Pity he aint got her Balls!!!!

Thatcher in my opinion was one of the most evil persons ever to have power after Hitler!

Cameron typical Tory no interest in anything apart from London and bankers!

[jucyberry]

I have a fantastic photo of the chid of satan but I can't work out how to put it here for some reason it won't let me. 

Weak, inept and most of all a liar, one only has to watch his performances on PMQ's to get a true measure of the man. Like any pr man his trade is spin and the way he twists the facts to suit the tory adgenda is horrifying.

[Bentley Bullet]

In a nutshell.....

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[BillyStubbsTears]

Debs

The lying thing is quite breathtaking.

In his speech yesterday on the economy, I noticed 2 barefaced lies. Not vaguely playing with meaning. Absolute out and out lies.

Politicians don't do this unless they are right up against the wall. They dissemble. They gild the facts. They busy the best possible spin on figures. Cameron did this half a dozen times in his speech. He made several contentious and arguable claims. Not lies as such but deeply questionable interpretations.

 But politicians don't lie. Not unless they have absolutely no alternative because they are in a deep hole. And Cameron lied at least twice yesterday.

These are the two barefaced lies.

1)"The OBR are absolutely clear that the deficit reduction plan is not responsible (for low growth). In fact, quite the opposite."

This is a quite stellar lie. The OBR report in December said clearly that deficit reduction policies had an adverse effect on growth. The question was how much? The OBR said that their opinion was that it wasn't a large effect, but that there was a great deal of uncertainty and that the effect could be bigger than they thought. What they absolutely did NOT say is what Cameron claims in his "quite the reverse" comment - that Govt cuts have INCREASED growth. Utterly shameless lie.

2)" Labour’s central argument is this. They say that by borrowing more they would miraculously end up borrowing less. Let me just say that again: they think borrowing more money would mean borrowing less. Yes, it really is as incredible as that. The Institute of Fiscal Studies has completely demolished this argument."

Except that, according to Prof Simon Wren Lewis of Oxford Uni (a world leading authority on fiscal and monetary policy, who should know), there is no IFS report that says anything of the sort.

He's working on the assumption that most people don't care enough to check the truth. Arrogance, contempt and deceit. The assumption that if they tell a lie with enough conviction, people will accept it as truth. Like Paul Ryan in the US election campaign claiming he'd run a sub-3 hour marathon when his best time was actually 4:01. It's based on a disgusting relationship with the truth, and the assumption that they can get away with it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well what do you know! It looks like the OBR has fingered Cameron for the liar that he is.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/mar/08/obr-chief-cameron-austerity-programme-blame

[jucyberry]

I know BST, his comments on he so called bedroom tax also show his duplicitous nature.. He stood and claimed that families with disabled kids will be exempt.... They aren't..

He claimed that disabled people with carers are exempt... they aren't..

He claims the size of the cost of housing benefit is one thing, it isn't.. He forgets to mention that most housing benefit goes to private landlords.
He forgets to mention the three cases that are being disputed by the government that have been brought by the parents of disabled parents
He forgets to mention that the 'carer ' has to be a non related one and that they have to all but live with the person they are careing for

Worst of all, he forgets to mention that there are precious few places for people to downsize into...

For the bedroom tax to work tenants will have to stay in their homes and make the money up because if they leave social and go into private rents the claims for housing benefit will rise and not by pennies either...

But then, they don't want this to work, they want to finish what thatcher started.. No social housing, no safety net no society..

How any government could brazenly state that food banks rose under labour when we are now experiencing a rise of 400% is totally beyond me, and how that government can fool it's self into thinking that this is a good thing just beggars belief.

[BobG]

You know the one question that not only have I never heard an answer to, but also I've never even heard being asked:

How many houses will this 'right sizing' policy free up and how many people will be able to be accommodated as a result? Over what timescale?

I thought Radio 4 was putting the boot in to Cameron tonight - but even then they didn't ask that question. And that, surely, is the absolute fundamental  underlying what is claimed for this bedroom tax policy. Of course, we all know better, but why isn't anyone asking the bloody question????

Cheers

BobG

PS I'd be right in the shit here.....

PPS Define a bedroom. I could claim, quite truthfully in each case, that my house has anything between 3 and 6 bedrooms. How is purported use arbitrarily allotted to one particular purpose?

[jucyberry]

Simple answer Bob? The Beeb sits firmly in the pocket of the government, Patten is the man pulling the strings... Same with the papers, the majority have been brought into line by the Levinson report and threats of jail... Add to that the likes of the Mail which is owned by Camerons old buddy and you pretty much have a news black out..

Did you know for instance that there are organised marches up and down the country on the 16th of this month protesting about it and calling for the bedroom tax to be scrapped?

The point is there are precious few one bed properties, and at least 660.000 tenants affected.

You probably haven't heard the question because the government fed media has done a sterling job poisoning the minds of many of its readers and viewers.. They don't ask because they don't give a damn.

Other than that, hope all is well with you my lovely.. :-)

[BillyStubbsTears]

Debs

You are right to be so angry about the bedroom tax. It is a vindictive attack by these bas**rds and it will cause untold grief.

I worry that they'll get away with it though. Thatcher was brought down by the Poll Tax, but that was because it affected so many people. The Bedroom Tax is going to pick off a very concentrated part of society, and one that most people don't give a damn about.

Hold on in there. Two years to go till Dave, Nick and Gideon are out on their arses.

[BobG]

I'm ok ta Jucy. My blood pressure gets to uncomfortable levels when I hear drivel like Cameron has been spouting though. It's not caused entirely by him though. Quite a lot of it comes from the knowledge that such a huge proportion of this electorate are sufficiently illiterate to accept that shit at face value. That really gets my goat tbh. We get the politicians we deserve don't we? You can see it, at work, each and every day, on this sodding forum even. Where did the spirit of youthful rebellion go? The spirit of challenge? The spirit which allowed a debate to be had where all sides actually listened to the others, where they had to sharpen and refine their thinking? Where did thesis, antithesis, synthesis go?

I am deeply out of love with this country these days. In reality, I despise a huge amount of what it stands for and an equally huge amount of what it does.

Why can so few buggers see that the LIBOR fraud, the insurance miss selling and the rest of the crimes of the banks in the last 5 years are, pure and simple, symptoms of the system in which they operate? It's not the sodding banks that need regulating - even if that is anathema to that awful woman and her cohorts. No. Unless and until the values of this country change, we will continue to get this sort of behaviour all over the place. Get rich quick is about all that matters these days. Why did the cops in North Yorkshire keep 'appalling' records when it came to gun ownership? Answer: at least partly because they have no money, not enough people therefore and no motivation either therefore. And why might that be? Because the word 'tax' is a swear word to the political apparatchiks today. Any fair tax system hurts the darlings of the right. Can't have that, can we?

I f*cking despair. I really do.

BobG

PS Reading through again what I just wrote, the thought struck me that perhaps the single biggest failing of the political left of centre in this country over certainly the last 50 years and arguably the last 100 years is the way in which it has allowed the right of centre to  drive the agenda, to set the values and culture and to gain control of the organs of mass communications.

There's a decent article in that if I could be arsed.

[jucyberry]

This country has the foul stench of barely covered corruption about it.. It permeiates down from westminster, through scotland yard and beyond.,,

There is a savage and unyeilding hatred for the poor that is being willfully encouraged by the government with it's nasty little soundbytes..

You are right BST, I am angry and disgusted and sickened... All the  while IDS and his cronies are working out how to throw us out of our homes using the excuse that we are clogging up spaces others could be using..Let alone having the terminity to be so greedy as to claim the LUXURY of a box room they are also stepping up the persuasive tactics to get tenants to buy.

I have a theory. I think they know that long term secure tenants if they haven't bought by now, that they never will. to rid themselves of the 'burden' of social housing therefore they need us out and others in who just might do that.

[The Red Baron]

Debs

You are right to be so angry about the bedroom tax. It is a vindictive attack by these b*****ds and it will cause untold grief.

I worry that they'll get away with it though. Thatcher was brought down by the Poll Tax, but that was because it affected so many people.
 

Just wanted to correct a common misconception. Thatcher was not brought down by the Poll Tax. She was brought down by her party because a sufficient number of them believed she was an electoral liability and their only chance of winning the next election (and saving their seats!) was to change the leader. The Poll Tax (or rather the reaction to it) may have been a factor in persuading Tory MPs that they couldn't win in 1991 or 1992, although most of them supported the measure.

After the Eastleigh by-election Cameron is now getting into this dangerous territory and is coming very close to being a lame duck PM. This may explain his dissembling and why his back is very much to the wall.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Debs

You are right to be so angry about the bedroom tax. It is a vindictive attack by these b*****ds and it will cause untold grief.

I worry that they'll get away with it though. Thatcher was brought down by the Poll Tax, but that was because it affected so many people.
 

Just wanted to correct a common misconception. Thatcher was not brought down by the Poll Tax. She was brought down by her party because a sufficient number of them believed she was an electoral liability and their only chance of winning the next election (and saving their seats!) was to change the leader. The Poll Tax (or rather the reaction to it) may have been a factor in persuading Tory MPs that they couldn't win in 1991 or 1992, although most of them supported the measure.

After the Eastleigh by-election Cameron is now getting into this dangerous territory and is coming very close to being a lame duck PM. This may explain his dissembling and why his back is very much to the wall.

Debs

You are right to be so angry about the bedroom tax. It is a vindictive attack by these b*****ds and it will cause untold grief.

I worry that they'll get away with it though. Thatcher was brought down by the Poll Tax, but that was because it affected so many people.
 

Just wanted to correct a common misconception. Thatcher was not brought down by the Poll Tax. She was brought down by her party because a sufficient number of them believed she was an electoral liability and their only chance of winning the next election (and saving their seats!) was to change the leader. The Poll Tax (or rather the reaction to it) may have been a factor in persuading Tory MPs that they couldn't win in 1991 or 1992, although most of them supported the measure.

After the Eastleigh by-election Cameron is now getting into this dangerous territory and is coming very close to being a lame duck PM. This may explain his dissembling and why his back is very much to the wall.

Debs

You are right to be so angry about the bedroom tax. It is a vindictive attack by these b*****ds and it will cause untold grief.

I worry that they'll get away with it though. Thatcher was brought down by the Poll Tax, but that was because it affected so many people.
 

Just wanted to correct a common misconception. Thatcher was not brought down by the Poll Tax. She was brought down by her party because a sufficient number of them believed she was an electoral liability and their only chance of winning the next election (and saving their seats!) was to change the leader. The Poll Tax (or rather the reaction to it) may have been a factor in persuading Tory MPs that they couldn't win in 1991 or 1992, although most of them supported the measure.

After the Eastleigh by-election Cameron is now getting into this dangerous territory and is coming very close to being a lame duck PM. This may explain his dissembling and why his back is very much to the wall.

TRB

I was simplifying but the Poll Tax was by FAR the key issue in making Thatcher finally unelectable. Kinnock's Labour Party had never had a lead of more than a few points and never for longer than a few weeks. By the time of the Poll Tax riots, Labour were 20-odd percent ahead of the Tories and had been ahead for over a year.

And that was in relatively good economic conditions.

The Tory hierarchy considered the Poll Tax to be madness but Thatcher insisted on pushing it through. It was that insistence that she was right and they were wrong that did for her.

It's telling that within a few weeks of Major taking office, Heseltine as the new Environment Secretary had announced a huge subsidy to reduce Poll Tax rates (paid for by a "temporary" hike in VAT which became permanent, but hey ho - VAT always hits the poor hardest) and then announced that the Poll Tax was going to be dropped. He and Major knew how toxic it was.

PS. Some poll figures.

The Poll Tax legislation was passed in late 88. The tax was implemented in England from March 90. Before early 89, hardly anyone beyond political obsessives was aware of what the Poll Tax would mean. By early 1990, EVERYONE knew about it.

In Jan 89, Thatcher's personal poll rating was 46% satisfied, 48% dissatisfied (by the way, Cameron and Miliband would sell their souls for those figures!). By March 90, it was 20-76 - about the level of hatred and contempt that Clegg is held in today.


Tory plots went on all summer as they realised the level of catastrophe she had led them into. The economy was also on the slide by then but she could have ridden that out. It was the Poll Tax that did for the old witch.

[Dagenham Rover]

"but Thatcher insisted on pushing it through. It was that insistence that she was right and they were wrong that did for her."

and to an extent history repeats itself

[jucyberry]

Sooner or later the tory backbenches are going to realise that this poisonous act is going to do them terminal harm.. They won't have to worry about which way, and what leader to fall in with because they won't have a seat anyway..

[BobG]

Looks very much like the two parties in bed are falling out of love with each other. There's some poisonous stuff being said now by each about the other.  Clegg's stuffed though. He just can't pull the plug - even if that would be the one thing that might go some way towards rehabilitating him in the eyes of many. All we need now is one more juicy scandal and the whole pack of 'em are in it right up to their necks. How can Murdoch be resurrected?

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bob

Murdoch is fine. This Kitson, Cameron made sure that the Leveson recommendations never got into law. Presumably, on the understanding that THAT Kitson will make sure his rags support the Tories in 2015.

And the biggest Kitson of all, Michael Gove (who used to work for Murdoch, and who was the most sycophantic, fawning w**k stain of the lot about the tabloid press at the Leveson Inquiry) is positioning himself to reap the rewards of his faithfulness by getting Murdoch's approval to be Tory leader sometime around 2017, regardless of who wins the next Election.

 Read The Times or The Sun. They never have a bad word to say about Gove. Despite the fact that he has f**ked up and had to U-turn half a dozen times in 3 years as Education Secretary. I'm sure their support is nothing to do with Gove's unstinting support of them at Leveson.

[jucyberry]

I sometimes wonder just what it would take for the public to really wake up to what is going on in this country at the moment..
The sad thing is far too many still believe the lies pimped out from the government down through the media..

Being on benefits for instance isn't a 'lifestyle choice'.. Why would anyone choose not to have enough money to feed their children or keep their houses warm?

The change in the tone towards council and housing tenants is shameful.. Suddeny the secure lifetime tenancy is seen by the masses as something the lower orders just don't deserve.. It is not the tenants fault that the government has changed the rules and name of the game.

Thatchers greed based me, me, me culture has matured into something full of poison.. The government goes through the motions flinging out soundbytes about saving money, cutting the deficit and 'making things 'farer'...The reality is they are doing everything they can to destroy the welfare state using a combination of stealth and smoke and mirrors..

This same government who along with the rest that give themselves £160. per week food allowence.. Over double the money those on jsa are expected to live and run a home on...

i'm a council tenant, well it's a housing association now... I am on esa, I'm not ashamed to admit it, I've been through atos.. I get £99.15 per week. Come april I will have to find £100. per month to pay the bedroom tax and for the fact that my rebate doesn't cover the rent fully... I am going nowhere, this is and will always be my home..

I'm lucky, my health problems are all head based (I'm mad..lol)No, really it's anxiety, depression and those heart blips.. Many, many people that will be hit live in homes adapted for their needs, where do they go?

If the government thinks the poor will just crawl away and hide under the nearest rock they are seriously delluding themselves..Contrary to the msm's belief people are banding together.. there is a country wide day of protest on Saturday, and a big one in London at the end of the month..

For those who still think those with nothing get too much, remember it is said that any of us are only 3 pay slips from disaster. It is so easy to be smug whilst the sun is shining.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Debs

This Govt, IDS being the leading ideologue, is obsessed with cutting Govt spending regardless. They have had three years of a free run, claiming that this approach is essential to save the economy.

It is bullshit. They are a bunch if dogmatic bas**rds cutting Govt spending for one reason.

Paul Krugman nailed this one months ago.

As a macro-economist, he has utterly skewered the arguments that Austerity will lead to lower deficits and debts. It doesn't. Austerity, in particular, cutting welfare, leads to HIGHER debt.

But the Tories don't give a shit about that. They want to cut the state for ideological reasons, even though the economic arguments have been comprehensively trounced. And of course, they will pile the agony on the poorest through things like the Bedroom Tax.

[jucyberry]

BST,

They forget that the poor spend more in real terms than the rich who just sit on their wealth or squirrel it away off shore..



There is a perfect storm coming for many in this country.. Not only will the bedroom tax come in in april, but also there is a cut to the council tax benefit, some councils are removing up to 25% of the poorest households benefit..

Once again I am very, very lucky my council obviously knows how to manage it's finances and as I was told by a woman when I rang, there is enough in the pot for them not to impliment cuts this year..

As this is a cut that will effect everyone on benefits be it social, private or those struggling to hold on to their mortgage I am shocked that it hasn't been more widely publicised.. I wonder if there are people out there who do not even know this is happening.. Council houses, the old ones like mine are band A, I feel so badly for those in private rent who are in a higher band, their percentage will cripple them.

Add to that is the universal credit that is due to be rolled out in trial areas from April and you have the perfect recipe for a disaster of epic proportions..

Idiot Donut Shitbag is on record saying he will not give any more to the poor because it doesn't go to the children aparently in his world if you are on benefits you also drink cheap cider like a fish, smoke like an industrial chimney and shoot lines of nasty stuff like a supermodel at stringfellows... What a t**t.

[BobG]

Debs. I stand in awe. awe of your analysis, and of your logic. There's only one little issue I have. Do you really think a sh1t storm will happen? I don't I'm afraid. This country is naturally conservative (small 'c'). It doesn't do revolts and revolutions. The 1930's showed that. Today, with the press lined up alongside Murdoch and that berk in No 10 and the BBC under massive pressure and fearful for its future, I'm not at all sure what will motivate people to band together to demand change. Even the poll tax rage ended up being led by the press. This current disaster won't affect the chattering classes so why will anyone bother to lead? The institutionalised under class can just be ignored. That's the whole purpose of this last decade or two. even the bloody Labour party was at it. (A bunch, btw, who disappointed me so badly last time around that, even today, I am loathe to ever vote for them again)

The only ray of light I can see on the horizon is the internet. There are concerned people out there. I have subscribed to 38degrees. They're a campaigning group who use the internet  to encourage people to express their dissatisfaction with various Govt policies. Quite startlingly successful as well. But it needs more. So take a look. This is the link to what was one of their efforts. If it doesn't work now, just chop off the end of the link until you get to the main page.

Billy: you might appreciate 38degrees as well.

https://secure.38degrees.org.uk/nhs-broken-promises

BobG

[Glyn_Wigley]

This current disaster won't affect the chattering classes so why will anyone bother to lead? The institutionalised under class can just be ignored.

It'll affect them when their houses start getting robbed.

[The Red Baron]

In Jan 89, Thatcher's personal poll rating was 46% satisfied, 48% dissatisfied (by the way, Cameron and Miliband would sell their souls for those figures!). By March 90, it was 20-76 - about the level of hatred and contempt that Clegg is held in today.


Tory plots went on all summer as they realised the level of catastrophe she had led them into. The economy was also on the slide by then but she could have ridden that out. It was the Poll Tax that did for the old witch.

We can obviously argue until the cows come home about what caused the Tory party to lose faith in Thatcher, but your statement about the economy puzzles me. There was a problem of high inflation, particularly in rising house prices, which the Government addressed by raising interest rates. This imposed a serious burden on those with mortgages. Some of the blame fell on Nigel Lawson, who as Chancellor had cut taxes in the 1987 Budget- felt by many to be an unnecessary fiscal stimulus at a time when the economy was close to overheating anyway.

So you can argue that economic management (or mismangement) was at the centre of Thatcher's downfall, rather than the Poll Tax. And that is before we get onto the argument about whether or not to join the ERM- over which Thatcher found herself isolated in Cabinet- which split the Tories down the middle.

Truth is, it was a combination of factors, of which the Poll Tax was but one, which brought down Maggie.

[jucyberry]

Lol, thanks Bob, the fella says I'm turning into quite a little millitant.. 

I belong to a group on facebook that has at this moment 11,408 members, people in this group have been interviewed on tv and in the newspapers, the group grows daily and it is one of many.. the same with twitter..People are marshalling themselves together..

You are right tho, until it hits the majority many people will ignore what is happening, just wait until the government realises it has nothing left to lose and decides to go after the fatted calf that is the pensioner..Remember they are the 'biggest benefit drain in real terms', the largest chunk of all benefits go to them..I can honestly see that get a year down the line when the reality of being unelectable finally hits the cabinet that it will go after the oap's so called perks.

If the government does (and let's face it, the chances of stopping the bedroom tax at this late stage is pretty miniscule) go ahead then the costs to the public will be immense.. Courts will be snarled up with eviction cases and lets not forget that legal aid has been all but scrapped now so the vunerable will have very little chance of legal support..This also will effect those who have failed the atos system because the government has brought in new measures that will make appeals difficult in the extreme...

There has to be one pivotal moment in time when the public finally realise that the government has been silently and stealthily dismantling democracy in this country..When that day comes hopefully things will change.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The first knife between Thatcher's shoulder blades, and she had to sit there and listen to it thudding home..!

It's worth listening to all the way through because you only usually get to hear the soundbites.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvyAMjGSoKQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=Y2z0IfEPLjY&NR=1

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

The interest rate rise happened mainly in 1988. Rates almost doubled between May and Nov 88, from 7.5% to 13%. But Thatcher's popularity figures didn't take a hit. Satisfied-Dissatified figures were 46-47 in Jan 88 and 46-48 in Jan 89. Yes mortgage rates went up and yes that hurt people, but to a great extent, Thatcher had won the economic argument by then - there was no real opposition to a monetarist approach to bringing down inflation by hiking interest rates. And as the figures show, she didn't suffer as a result of the rate increases.

On the Poll Tax, opinion poll data is stark. Ipsos-Mori have an on-line archive of previous poll data. They have regularly asked "What is the most important issue facing Britain" type questions for decade. Prior to Spring 89, the Poll Tax wasn't on their list of possible answers. In April 89, 10% of people said it was the most important issue. After that, the figures went like this
Date----Poll Tax (%)---Thatcher Sat---Thatcher Dissat
May 89 ---- 10 ------------- 40 --------------- 54
Aug 89 ----11 -------------- 38 --------------- 57
Dec 89 --- 17 -------------- 33 --------------- 64
Jan 90 --- 22 --------------- 31 -------------- 65
Feb 90 --- 32 --------------- 29 -------------- 66
Mar 90 --- 49 --------------- 20 -------------- 76

Plot out the % saying the PT was important and Thatcher's net approval rating and the result is near-linear. By the way, the %age saying the economy was the most important issue hardly changed throughout this period - between high teens and mid 20s% all the way through. Doesn't automatically imply causation, but it fits with my own memory of the time. Hatred of Thatcher had been quelled by rising prosperity and falling unemployment in the Lawson Boom, but it came out in spades as people started to realise just how regressive the PT was.


I fully accept that rising interest rates were unpopular. And that Thatcher's attitude towards Europe earned her some resentment in the upper levels of the Party. But I still say that she would have ridden both of these out had she not made the God Almighty blunder of the Poll Tax. That, as much as the Miners' Striker was a "Which Side Are You On" moment for the country. It would have led to a huge redistribution of taxation costs from richer to poorer parts of society. And, crucially, it would have hit people who didn't consider themselves to be Stormtroopers of the Working Class. So, people who had supported Thatcher in privatisation and union bashing suddenly saw that THEY too were in her sights. And they turned against her massively. That's why, by March 1990, she had the very lowest net approval rating of her entire career as PM - far lower even that the depths of the 80-82 recession when she presided over doubling of VAT, inflation and unemployment.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The first knife between Thatcher's shoulder blades, and she had to sit there and listen to it thudding home..!

It's worth listening to all the way through because you only usually get to hear the soundbites.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvyAMjGSoKQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=Y2z0IfEPLjY&NR=1

Glyn

Brilliant!

To think. Howe was the Chancellor who delivered the 1981 Budget that devastated the industrial regions of this country. But to listen to that speech, he would have been on the wildest left-wing fringe of today's Tory party. That shows how far to the Right they have moved over Europe in the last 20 years.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Whilst trying to find the Spitting Image take on Thatcher going, I came across this - what are ths odds on the Bedroom Tax bringing this back?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC4oNyjKNKs

[BobG]

I almost wish you hadn't posted that last clip Glyn. I'm sitting here, now, with all that vicious anger, resentment, murderous intent, boiling up in me all over again. If she and I were alone on a desert island the bits that would be left wouldn't even feed a couple of teeny fish.....

Who was it said Maggie had been savaged by a dead sheep after Howe's speech? Denis Healey?

BobG