German football

[StocksArmy]

Few of my mates and I was lucky enough to visit the home of Dortmund this weekend. I can honestly say it puts the English game to shame. We were mixed in with the Stuttgart fans and it was just amazing to be part of. The atmosphere was something that I very much doubt I will witness at any game I ever go to for the rest of my life. Was a pleasure to see 2 sets of fans mixed in together and just enjoy what was infront of them. Even at 6-1 down Stuttgart were singing and supporting their team. It was a breathe of fresh air and one of the best footballing experiences Ive had.

[BigColSutherland]

I've done it as well StocksArmy. Superb stadium, great atmosphere.

The thing we shouldn't forget in all this though is, despite all the praise the German game gets (and most of it deserved), the Germans do have an increasing problem with hooliganism. I witnessed it first hand at Dortmund Schalke, and it was full on brawling between hundreds of rival fans.

The English game has certainly lost much of what made it great, but the flip side of that coin is that it's now a much safer place for your average member of the public to be.

[StocksArmy]

Yeah Dortmund v Schalke is a massive local derby isn't it? Speaking with a couple of Stuttgart fans they said they hated Bayern and would prefer Dortmund to win the game. All in all both a great set of fans and didn't get any bother. P.S their hotdogs were to die for!

[not on facebook]

I've done it as well StocksArmy. Superb stadium, great atmosphere.

The thing we shouldn't forget in all this though is, despite all the praise the German game gets (and most of it deserved), the Germans do have an increasing problem with hooliganism. I witnessed it first hand at Dortmund Schalke, and it was full on brawling between hundreds of rival fans.

The English game has certainly lost much of what made it great, but the flip side of that coin is that it's now a much safer place for your average member of the public to be.

After watching bits Of a german league game live on eurosport friday night
I noticed that they still had crowd controll fencing up inside the ground.

Was thinking if they still had issues with FV out there

[BigColSutherland]

Major issues Oslo - but it's that passion that then helps create the atmosphere. It's a difficult one I suppose.

Small piece on the Beeb last year: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20711610

[graingrover]

I would love to see the Family stand accept away fans who have their kids with them. so that they too could benefit from all the effort the club has made to make the match experience a pleasant one .

          Another way Rovers could break new ground.

[Dagenham Rover]

I would love to see the Family stand accept away fans who have their kids with them. so that they too could benefit from all the effort the club has made to make the match experience a pleasant one .

          Another way Rovers could break new ground.

That was tried at Forest v Us a few seasons ago it seemed to work ok.

I don't think it ended up with loads of 7 year olds beating seven bales out of each other 

[not on facebook]

Major issues Oslo - but it's that passion that then helps create the atmosphere. It's a difficult one I suppose.

Small piece on the Beeb last year: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20711610
[/quote


Think the german powers that had that meeting in the hotel about how
To solve the FV issues in germany ,have missed a trick by not having any
German football fans at the meeting.

Who better to Ask how to solve the  problem without having massive knock
On effects for the normall fans.

at least listen to the  normall fans input,as they are thr ones that will know more about Their own teams trouble Supporters Than the Police.

[RobTheRover]

I would love to see the Family stand accept away fans who have their kids with them. so that they too could benefit from all the effort the club has made to make the match experience a pleasant one .

          Another way Rovers could break new ground.

That was tried at Forest v Us a few seasons ago it seemed to work ok.

I don't think it ended up with loads of 7 year olds beating seven bales out of each other 

I sat in that stand with my kids and it was a strange experience.  All the things I like about footy werent happening in there, no singing, no banter, it was all a bit sterile.  Then to top it off the family of Forest fans jumping up and down in front of us after each of their goals did start to wind me up.  Grrrrr.

A good idea, but I guess more work required.  It would probably suit those families that regularly sit in the family stand more, rather than the likes of me that like to  bellow out "Lino, stop being a tart and get that flag up!"

[Al4475]

Yeah we found that as well at Forest that year Rob - I think it's a goer of an idea but maybe as you said needs a little it of thought. Could be well worth the club investigating it though.

[IDM]

Yeah Dortmund v Schalke is a massive local derby isn't it? Speaking with a couple of Stuttgart fans they said they hated Bayern and would prefer Dortmund to win the game. All in all both a great set of fans and didn't get any bother. P.S their hotdogs were to die for!

Were you able to pay cash for the food, or did you need to buy vouchers/tokens first?  When I went to Hannover 96 3 years ago, I went for a half time hot chocolate and currywurst (as it was december, freezing and about a foot of snow around the city) only to find out the food stand didn't take cash and you had to buy the vouchers before entering the stadium...

[BigColSutherland]

Dortmund you buy tokens just through the turnstile.

[silent majority]

[/b]

Major issues Oslo - but it's that passion that then helps create the atmosphere. It's a difficult one I suppose.

Small piece on the Beeb last year: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20711610

That's a very misleading piece by the BBC, although the fault lies with the German Police who gave out unreliable stats to make a point. The latest figures they've released recently are more accurate, and despite higher attendances, standing in stadiums and drinking within sight of the pitch their injury and arrest record is similar to ours.

Annual report of the German Police on football-related arrests

Season 2012/13

Period 01.07.2012 to 30.06.2013-11-04

Leagues covered: 1st and 2nd Bundesliga – 36 clubs in total, all have standing

In total (including cup games, UEFA competitions and internationals) 755 games

Total attendance: c. 18 million (ave. in top flight: 41.900)


Number of injuries down 31% year on year
Total number of spectators injured was 546, i.e. 0.003% of all spectators

Arrests / legal proceedings initiated (no information on convictions)
Down 20.2% to 6,502 (i.e. 0.036% of total spectators)

43% of this reduction is put down by the police to the reduction in the use of pyro. They point out that during the 2011/12 season there had been a public debate about whether pyro should be permitted and that when the football authorities (DFB and DFL) decided in November 2011 against doing so there had been a marked increase the use of pyro in protest at that decision. By the time of the 2012/13 season that initial disappointment at the decision had died down and there was no longer any use of pyro as a means of protest (use of pyro went down by 48.2%). It was thus a very specific political issue that had led to a considerable spike in the arrest figures in the 2011/12 season. All related to an issue that is largely alien to fan culture in this country.

All figures relate to incidents inside and outside of the ground, with no more specific information on actual location provided.

Policing hours related to football were down c. 7%.

[BigColSutherland]

Silent Majority, that's an interesting report.

Personally I still believe there's a far more violent undercurrent in German football than English.

I don't hear of acts of mass violence in England anymore, but in Germany they seem to me to be a regular occurrence.

This article for example: http://m.thelocal.de//20130211/47887

[silent majority]

You could be right, I'm just being guided by the people who know German football much better than me. We (FSF) have extremely strong connections with our German counterparts because of the Safe Standing campaign, the use of SLOs which are becoming a part of the English scene, and that we jointly run Football Supporters Europe. Because of that we have to have an intimate knowledge of arrests and injuries otherwise our campaigns in England would be sabotaged by our ignorance. We have one guy stationed in Germany permanently, another who spends most of his time flying backwards and forwards showing people what the concept of Safe Standing really means, both in terms of safety and hooliganism, and others doing various bits and pieces.

The report I highlighted is just a brief summary, the main report is sat in my office somewhere. There has been an increasing conflict as the Police pushed to act more like the English Police do and the German supporters pushed back and wanted to remain as they are. Common sense broke out in the end when the main protagonist, a German Chief of Police who had high aspirations, backtracked on his demands. Hence the massive drop from one year to the next.

[StocksArmy]

Yeah Dortmund v Schalke is a massive local derby isn't it? Speaking with a couple of Stuttgart fans they said they hated Bayern and would prefer Dortmund to win the game. All in all both a great set of fans and didn't get any bother. P.S their hotdogs were to die for!

Were you able to pay cash for the food, or did you need to buy vouchers/tokens first?  When I went to Hannover 96 3 years ago, I went for a half time hot chocolate and currywurst (as it was december, freezing and about a foot of snow around the city) only to find out the food stand didn't take cash and you had to buy the vouchers before entering the stadium...

We were told you had to pay €10 for a voucher in order to buy alcohol however we got served everytime. Forgot about that until you mentioned it

[Mr1Croft]

Dortmund were getting around a thousand English fans coming to most games

I wondered why I heard this vs Hannover 96

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13MRMBFWamI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13MRMBFWamI</a>


But seriously, football fans singing a song that loud, which isn't their native language has to be admired!

[silent majority]

Sammy,

A good article by Gary Neville about the price of football from Saturdays Daily Mail;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2485471/Next-generation-danger-priced-game-Gary-Neville-column.html

[Mr1Croft]

For me we lost our values when we abolished these 4 fundamental parts of regulatory framework:

Sharing of TV income
Sharing of gate income
Freedom of a contract
The maximum wage

The max wage and freedom of contract were two long campaigns that saw their abolishment as part of a labour movement, but what they were good for was competition. Unless you moved to Italy (who had no max wage) you would often see out your career at your first club (which was the players hometown more often than not), there wasn't a big enough incentive for most players to move and as a result many players who we would consider international quality could be found outside the top division, but more importantly the game was much less predictable and leagues were much more competitive as a result.

The freedom of a contract is what has also attributed to players becoming much more greedy (and their agents),  after the Bosman ruling in 1995 players can sign for a different club at the end of their contract which means that their new club doesn't have to pay their old club a player (depending on age) but this has resulted in players in this position demanding a larger signing on bonus as a result.

After big money moves, clubs are more willing to offer 'silly' contracts for 4 or 5 years to guard against this type of thing. But now consider the following; players used to have 4-5 contracts throughout their career but increased contracts can limit that to around 3. This can mean only 3 times in a career where they can negotiate their salary which is why the top players have demanded more lucrative deals to maximize their career income.

Up until 1981 the home club would have to share 20% of the gate income with the away club and 4% would go to the league so clubs based in small catchment areas would benefit when visiting clubs with larger attendances, and TV income was divided equally throughout the league.

By 1992 where the sharing of gate income was abolished and TV revenue no longer equal, we have a viscous circle where the top 4 clubs in the Premier League are earning around 4 times more TV income than those who are relegated from the Premier League. This means that those at the top of the table are more likely to meet the financial demands of the more talented players, the fact that the top 4 rarely changes (due to huge amount of CL TV revenue) they can also meet the expectations of the better players by playing in the (perceived) most lucrative competition in the world (Champions League), as a result the Premier League can be broken down into several 'mini-leagues' which are too predictive and less competitive each year.

Clubs battling for relegation
Those clubs fighting to finish in the top half
Those chasing Europa League finishes
Those fighting for 4th
Arsenal
Top 2 battling for the league title

Although the cycle repeats each year the gulf between clubs at the top and the bottom doesn't change too much as those clubs who get extra money are far too quick to shell it out in players wages immediately. Those that are successful as a result will move up in one of the mini leagues (such as Swansea, Stoke etc.,) those that don't succeed will often be in a financial mess as a result (such as Pompey, West Ham, Leeds etc.,).

[vielmas]

Is a good article, but for German football. I am concerned about Dortmund.
Dortmund fans attention http://www.footballtshirteu.com/german-teams-borussia-dortmund-c-15_42.html .
Dortmund tomorrow battles Arsenal. Klopp said in an interview: "Do you think we have in common? I hope sometimes, but we are very different. Wenger likes the ball, a lot of passing, they like the symphony orchestra, but this is the music. I like heavy metal and some coach said, running more important to their team, they consider just a great game and I want good game and more than your opponent to run 10 kilometers. "
Let us look forward to it!

[Mr1Croft]

There was a decent article in The Sun football pull out,it mentioned that Dortmund were getting around a thousand English fans coming to most games,flying over on Easyjet and that it was cheaper to do that than go and watch Arsenal when you include train fares etc,they said they could put prices up and rake more money in,but the way they are doing things is more sustained,the owner said ''If we get a call from a middle east businessman wanting to take over,the answer would be no within twenty seconds,because yes the club might have more money,but the fans would then become customers'' And that is exactly what has happened to our game,We have become Customers not fans

Here is an interesting piece on the interview with the BVB Chief exec online (the Telegraph):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/borussia-dortmund/10428828/British-interest-in-Borussia-Dortmund-no-surprise-to-the-men-who-make-the-Yellow-Wall-work.html

[normal rules]

I would love to see the Family stand accept away fans who have their kids with them. so that they too could benefit from all the effort the club has made to make the match experience a pleasant one .

          Another way Rovers could break new ground.

That was tried at Forest v Us a few seasons ago it seemed to work ok.

I don't think it ended up with loads of 7 year olds beating seven bales out of each other 

I was at that forest game and sat in the family area. wasn't pleasant. there was no trouble but you could have cut the atmosphere with a knife. the result didn't help. there were some comments threw rovers fans way and on another day it could have easily been a problem, it only needed a spark.

not a good idea.

[normal rules]

I had already posted a new thread re Dortmund before reading this. but check out
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/borussia-dortmund/10428828/British-interest-in-Borussia-Dortmund-no-surprise-to-the-men-who-make-the-Yellow-Wall-work.html