Do you trust the police?

[neil grainger]

In the light of the continued revelations over the Lawrence murder, the Hillsborough enquiry etc.......can we trust the police?

A very sweeping question I know, but I for one have serious reservations about the integrity of the police and I'm sad to say that my instinct is not to trust them.
They seem more intent on covering their backs than getting to the truth.

Discuss.

[jucyberry]

Truthfully?

No.

[StocktonRover]

In the light of the continued revelations over the Lawrence murder, the Hillsborough enquiry etc.......can we trust the police?

A very sweeping question I know, but I for one have serious reservations about the integrity of the police and I'm sad to say that my instinct is not to trust them.
They seem more intent on covering their backs than getting to the truth.

Discuss.

No

Add the miners strike to that (Orgreave in particular)

[BillyStubbsTears]

Orgreave will come out eventually.

When a Tory whip was f**ked over by the police, it took 12 months to get to the truth.

For the Lawrences, it's taken two decades.

For Liverpudlians, 25 years.

For South Yorks miners, it's been 30 years and counting. But it'll come. It'll come.

[River Don]

The reputation of the British Police has taken a tremendous battering.

There are all the example you've sited and other smaller ones, like the alcoholic newspaper vendor, a policeman killed and they tried to cover up. That whole thing left them open to grave criticism about how they deal with large scale protest and demonstrations.

While new technology has given them many new methods of surveillance it has also opened them up to scrutiny like they've never known before.

Do I trust them? No, they have been shown to be only too human and fallible.

Now the onus is on them to demonstrate they can adapt and regain the public trust.

[BillyStubbsTears]

RD

"Human" and "fallible" are not suitable adjectives for what happened at Orgreave.

"Politically directed" and "corrupt" might just be.

It'll all be dealt with. Eventually.

[River Don]

BST

I wasn't really referring to Orgreve it was thirty years ago. But it is human failing that leads to the corruption we see.

Just as the myth that British politicians are a superior incorruptible species has long gone too.

The point is the public more easily see it now, the myth of the friendly, honest as the day is long Bobby has been put to bed.

[Boomstick]

RD

"Human" and "fallible" are not suitable adjectives for what happened at Orgreave.

"Politically directed" and "corrupt" might just be.

It'll all be dealt with. Eventually.

Rubbish, complete rubbish

[RedJ]

RD

"Human" and "fallible" are not suitable adjectives for what happened at Orgreave.

"Politically directed" and "corrupt" might just be.

It'll all be dealt with. Eventually.

Rubbish, complete rubbish

What a fantastically well-put argument. That's obviously won hands down.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Go on Boomstick. Enlighten me on what you know that I don't.

[Boomstick]

Your a hardcore socialist with a political agenda, your argument is seriously warped by your politics. I have neither the time or the patience to enter into this argument with you.
The sad fact is many people actually believe the diatribe you write they can't see the wood from the trees.
So bore off with your crypto Communist views

[RedRover45]

So in short, Dipstick, you don't know anything ?

[RedJ]

Your a hardcore socialist with a political agenda, your argument is seriously warped by your politics. I have neither the time or the patience to enter into this argument with you.
The sad fact is many people actually believe the diatribe you write they can't see the wood from the trees.
So bore off with your crypto Communist views

In a nutshell you've absolutely no argument and you're trying to dig your way out.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Boomstick

Much as expected. You demonstrate your inability to separate ranting opinion from established fact.

Here are the established facts about what the police did at Orgreave.

Several miners were prosecuted for affray and riot. The case collapsed and was thrown out by the judge when it became clear that the police had lied in their sworn evidence. Several police had made statements saying that they had witnessed certain events at Orgreave. But the police duty log showed that, at the time they claimed to have been witnesses, they were actually in Sheffield city centre waiting to be bussed to Orgreave.

Other police statements were shown to have been forged, with false signatures.

They lied. On oath. That is recorded, established fact, not opinion. They did it knowingly in cases that could have led to 10 year jail sentences for men against whom there was not a scrap of evidence. That is called "perverting justice". But no prosecutions have ever been brought against any of the police involved.

It gets worse. Not only did they lie. They used EXACTLY the same words. A Look North documentary in 2012 got hold of 100 police statements from Orgreave. 31 of them said "the police line came under a sustained fusillade of missiles from the miners" and that this led to the violence that day.

How odd that everyone should use the same convoluted phrase and just conveniently describe a scene that, in an orchestrated way, points the finger of blame at the miners.

Sounds like a conspiracy doesn't it?

Well several police officers from Orgreave have said that their statements were dictated to them by plain clothed officers who they had never seen before.

Someone high up in the police wanted to establish a version of the facts and there is very strong evidence that they were prepared to break the law to do it. The consequence was very nearly innocent men going to prison for 10 years.

That should just concern someone on one side of politics. It should terrify anyone.

And it is police corruption and attitude that links directly to Hillsborough, Stephen Lawrence, Ian Tomlinson and Plebgate.

Sections of the police have been and still are out if control and perverting the law. They are scum who should be rooted out and sent down if we are to have a safe and honorable society.

Now Boomstick. I'll take your semi-literate disagreement as read so you can save yourself the bother of posting your opinion. If you have any issues with the FACTS, feel free to inform us.

[MachoMadness]

Your a hardcore socialist with a political agenda, your argument is seriously warped by your politics. I have neither the time or the patience to enter into this argument with you.
The sad fact is many people actually believe the diatribe you write they can't see the wood from the trees.
So bore off with your crypto Communist views

As opposed to you, who favours constant ad hominems instead of any kind of coherent argument? Are you actually 11 years old?

[Filo]

Your a hardcore socialist with a political agenda, your argument is seriously warped by your politics. I have neither the time or the patience to enter into this argument with you.
The sad fact is many people actually believe the diatribe you write they can't see the wood from the trees.
So bore off with your crypto Communist views

Ignorence is bliss eh?


Do you still believe in Father Christmas, the Tooth Fairy and the moon is made of cheese?

[RedJ]

Isn't it?

[MachoMadness]

Your a hardcore socialist with a political agenda, your argument is seriously warped by your politics. I have neither the time or the patience to enter into this argument with you.
The sad fact is many people actually believe the diatribe you write they can't see the wood from the trees.
So bore off with your crypto Communist views

Ignorence is bliss eh?


Do you still believe in Father Christmas, the Tooth Fairy and the moon is made of cheese?

You're wrong Filo, I've seen video evidence on Wallace and Gromit that proves otherwise.

[Filo]

Do Wallace and Gromit reside in Downing Street by any chance?

[Boomstick]

I'll re-iterate what I said before, this forum is awash and spoilt by views of far left socialists. There is simply no point in debating politics here, just very stubborn and bitter old men who's arguments ALWAYS harp back to the thatcher years. Despite all the GOOD she did. luckily for the country in another 20 years most will have joined the afterlife (where they probably will be picketing the pearly gates about how disappointed they are with eternal paradise)  and we might be able to have a reasoned debate. I'm looking forward to it

[Boomstick]

So bullshit billy, are you saying the police didnt come under attack?
Where's the justice in not prosecuting the rioters who assaulted police officers?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Boomstick

Read what I wrote. Then think if you can come up with a sensible question on the prosecutions instead if your usual drivel.

Regarding whether the police came under attack, that really is the whole point. The story we've had fed to us is that the miners attacked the police and the police responded.

If that was the case, you'd think that dozens of police officers would have been able to write their own statements on what had happened. But they didn't. They had statements dictated to them by senior officers who wanted to have a particular version of events to become the official story. The statements were shown to be full of lies and in some cases, to have fabricated signatures.

Why do that if the evidence of miners' rioting was so overwhelming?

Anyroad. I thought you claimed to be a Libertarian? Do Libertarians agree with the police having carte blanche to lie and fabricate evidence? As long as it's against someone you don't like?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Your a hardcore socialist with a political agenda, your argument is seriously warped by your politics. I have neither the time or the patience to enter into this argument with you.
The sad fact is many people actually believe the diatribe you write they can't see the wood from the trees.
So bore off with your crypto Communist views

That sounds like exactly the same crap that was being said to the Hillborough familes, and others who have uncovered corrupt police practices that have led to other miscarriages of justice, before we discovered out the real truth. It was BS when it was said to them too.

[IC1967]

I trust the police. 99% of them anyway. Just look at the police forces in other countries and just be very grateful with what we've got.

Boomstick is right. This forum is 95% populated by hardcore lefties who won't consider for one second a different perspective on life. Anyone that is considered to be right wing is instantly vilified no matter how sensible the point of view they put forward.

For example, I don't know all the rights and wrongs about what went off with the miners. I agree that the police have been found wanting in this incident but what makes my piss boil is that not one word of criticism is leveled at the miners. Anyone that dares to criticise the miners is treated with contempt.

To my mind and to any objective person it seems obvious that the miners were not whiter than white in this incident. But all you get from BST is the hard left view that it was all the police's fault.

What you hardcore lefties need to consider is how your constant complaining and moaning is affecting police morale. No doubt most of you don't care because all you are bothered about is political posturing.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

What I worry about is police acting in an illegal way to frame people against whom they have no evidence.

You turn a blind eye to a police force that invents evidence and allows a senior, un-named officer to dictate lies as facts, and you are half way towards letting democracy slip through your fingers.

We saw it at Orgreave. We saw it at Hillsborough. We saw it in the Stephen Lawrence case. We saw it probably most shockingly in the Andrew Mitchell case with a concerted effort to bring down a senior elected official through a pack of lies (stick that f**ker in your "left-wing" argument).

The point is that a police force is supposed to buttress democracy. But a police that thinks it can get away with the tricks it pulled in these cases is deeply corrosive to democracy.

If you are happy with the police acting like that, it fits in with your generally illogical outlook on most things.

[IC1967]

The police aren't perfect. I've already said as much. However it is a very small minority. Our police force is a reflection of our society.

What I do take issue with is you hard core lefties constantly having a go at them as though they are all corrupt and not caring what damage you do to their morale.

I gave a very good example in my last post. If we were to believe you, then all the problems listed in your diatribe are 100% the fault of the police. You never give a balanced argument and admit that just maybe some of the fault lies with the people that are being policed.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yes Mick

Another thread gets diverted from established facts into the quagmire of your opinions.

Hang on. Was that Andie McDowell walking past again.

[IC1967]

Unlike you I know a few police men and women.  They are all thoroughly decent people and a credit to society. The vast bulk of the police force are made up of such people. You wouldn't think it would you reading the one sided leftie drivel that you post.

[BillyStubbsTears]

How the f**k do you know who I know you stupid, opinionated bell end.

[DevilMayCry]

In romanian police no, many of them are very stupid and arrogant