The French plane crash

[Filo]

Apparently the co pilot deliberatly crashed the plane after being left alone in the cockpit, it looks like more stringent mental health checks will be required for pilots now

[BobG]

Or religious belief check...?

That struck me as soon as I heard of the crash. But then, given the job I was doing this last two years, that's hardly surprising tbh.

BobG

[GM-MarkB]

IMO I think this is the likely outcome of MH170 as well, although we'll not know until if and when they find the black boxes

[Jenny]

Terrifying really isn't it.

[GM-MarkB]

It's the only form of transport that makes me nervous beforehand, although i'm not in the slightest bit scared of flying. It's just as feasible for anyone to crash anything you're travelling in with devastating consequences. But flying just has that aura about it

[BillyStubbsTears]

If you have a major crash in a car or a bus, or a train or on a bike, it'd be over in a fraction of a second.

Planes are different. With planes, you can have a long, drawn-out death.

The most upsetting thing I heard in the whole of 2014 was that some of the bodies from the Malaysian airliner that was shot down over Ukraine had oxygen masks on their faces.

Think about it. Or, rather, probably best if you DON'T think about it.

I will have nightmares tonight about the thought of being on that German Wings plane during the 8 minute descent, with the Captain increasingly manically trying to get into the cockpit. I fly regularly and I treat it as if I was getting a train or a bus. But always there this that feeling at the back of the mind that you are so far from your normal environment that you are only protected by the technology and the lack of insanity of the crew. On a train it's different. Even if you know rationally that you wouldn't survive a 150mph crash, at least if it DID happen, you'd be thrown onto the ground. Onto your environment. Not left out of control 7 miles up in the air.

What happened on the German Wings flight won't happen to any of us, but it is the true stuff of nightmares to think about what it would have been like for those involved.

[The Red Baron]

The other thing, which I think Mark was alluding to, is that you're more likely to survive a bus or train crash than a plane crash.

[bobjimwilly]

EasyJet and Virgin Atlantic already announced that from now on there will be two crew members in their cockpits at all times. (Jet2, Monarch, FlyBe and RyanAir say the procedure is already in place)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3013350/Two-crew-members-cockpit-times-EasyJet-airlines-announce-radical-new-changes-wake-Germanwings-tragedy.html

[silent majority]

My wife is Cabin Crew. Yesterday she was asked if she had any emotional turmoil in her life. Only my husband she said!

[GazLaz]

She's not a Rovers fan then.

[silent majority]

She's not a Rovers fan then.

No, not at all. Doesn't like football full stop!

[drfc1951]

EasyJet and Virgin Atlantic already announced that from now on there will be two crew members in their cockpits at all times. (Jet2, Monarch, FlyBe and RyanAir say the procedure is already in place)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3013350/Two-crew-members-cockpit-times-EasyJet-airlines-announce-radical-new-changes-wake-Germanwings-tragedy.html

The other thing, which I think Mark was alluding to, is that you're more likely to survive a bus or train crash than a plane crash.

Trouble is if the pilot or co pilot left the cabin for the loo, a member of the cabin crew would have to go in the cockpit.Ithink  they would still be powerless to stop something like this happening.

[rtid88]

Apparently his training was stopped part way through while certain situations were dealt with but then continued after. Would be interesting to see what these situations were and why his training was allowed to be continued after??

[Donnywolf]

EasyJet and Virgin Atlantic already announced that from now on there will be two crew members in their cockpits at all times. (Jet2, Monarch, FlyBe and RyanAir say the procedure is already in place)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3013350/Two-crew-members-cockpit-times-EasyJet-airlines-announce-radical-new-changes-wake-Germanwings-tragedy.html

The other thing, which I think Mark was alluding to, is that you're more likely to survive a bus or train crash than a plane crash.

Trouble is if the pilot or co pilot left the cabin for the loo, a member of the cabin crew would have to go in the cockpit.Ithink  they would still be powerless to stop something like this happening.

Probably would find it difficult as I am sure I read / heard yesterday that Flight Crew / Cabin Attendants are legally prohibited from learning to fly - obviously for Security from a different angle

Also a determined and fit 28 year old could easily overpower the "average" flight attendant especially given the power of surprise as well -and indeed this Bloke may have been planning to overpower the Captain during this Flight but "luckily" for him that became unnecessary when the Captain left (last sentence is all speculative on my part of course - how would I know ?)

[Filo]

In this day of electronics, radio and sattelite communications, surely a system. Can be developed that allowed the cockpit door lock to be opened from the ground, or to take it a step further the planes controls be disabled from the ground and the plane remotely controlled

[IC1967]

I think a sense of perspective is needed. This is the first time a plane has crashed due to a pilot being mentally ill. It may never happen again.

So no need for all this over the top health and safety nonsense to try and prevent something like this ever happening again. The existing health and safety rules have served us very well up to this point. No need to make them any more stringent.

Unfortunately there are risks in life. Getting on a plane is a risk. There is no way every possible eventuality can be covered.

Also those that are asking why someone with mental health problems is flying a plane need to be aware that one in four people suffer with mental health issues. We need to stop stigmatising these people and accept that they should be allowed to work. 

Unfortunately I fear this incident is going to be dealt with in a totally irrational way and more people are going to be stigmatised and lose their jobs because of it.

[auckleyflyer]

SM my misses is ex Thomson (from the start)
She's said from the start door procedure should stop what happened this week. How many poor flight deck lost in the last two yrs!! Crew are often forgotten about in the reporting and coverage.
Your lives are in their hands, unbelievably well trained, drilled and not just waitress's in the sky!!

[silent majority]

Auckley, the crew have all had extra instruction today. One of them has to be present in the cockpit if a pilot needs to take a break. She's cursing obviously!!

[wilts rover]

I think a sense of perspective is needed. This is the first time a plane has crashed due to a pilot being mentally ill. It may never happen again.

Good grief:

List of aircraft accidents caused by pilot suicide:
On November 29, 2013, LAM Flight TM-470 crashed in Namibia following ‘intentional actions by the pilot’, according to investigators. All 33 passengers and crew were killed.
The following is a list of airliner accidents involving (possible or rumored) pilot suicide, compiled from the Aviation Safety Network files. General aviation aircraft are not included.

26 September 1976 – 12 fatalities
A Russian pilot stole an Antonov 2 airplane directed his aircraft into the block of flats in Novosibirsk where his divorced wife lived.  (ASN Accident Description)

22 August 1979 – 4 fatalities
A 23 year old male mechanic who had just been fired entered a hangar at Bogotá Airport, Colombia and stole a military HS-748 transport plane. He took off and crashed the plane in a residential area.  (ASN Accident Description)

13 July 1994 – 1 fatality
A Russian Air Force engineer stole the aircraft at the Kubinka AFB to commit suicide. The aircraft crashed when there was no more fuel left.  (ASN Accident Description)

21 August 1994 – 44 fatalities
A Royal Air Maroc ATR-42 airplane crashed in the Atlas Mountains shortly after takeoff from Agadir, Morocco.  The accident was suggested to have been caused by the captain disconnecting the autopilot and directing the aircraft to the ground deliberately. The Moroccan Pilot’s Union challenged these findings.  (ASN Accident Description)

19 December 1997 – 104 fatalities
Silk Air Flight 185, a Boeing 737 en route from Jakarta, Indonesia to Singapore, crashed in Indonesia following a rapid descent from cruising altitude. Indonesian authorities were not able to determine the cause of the accident. It has been suggested by amongst others the U.S. NTSB that the captain may have committed suicide by switching off both flight recorders and intentionally putting the Boeing 737 in a dive, possibly when the first officer had left the flight deck. During 1997 the captain experienced multiple work-related difficulties, particularly during the last 6 months. Also at the time of the accident the captain was experiencing significant financial difficulties, which was disputed by the Indonesian investigators. (ASN Accident Description)

11 October 1999 – 1 fatality
An Air Botswana captain who had been grounded for medical reasons took off in an ATR-42. He made several demands over the radio and finally stated he was going the crash the plane. He caused the plane to crash into two parked ATR-42 aircraft on the platform at Gaborone Airport, Botswana.  (ASN Accident Description)

31 October 1999 – 217 fatalities
Egypt Air Flight 990, a Boeing 767, entered a rapid descent some 30 minutes after departure from New York-JFK Airport. This happened moments after the captain had left the flight deck.  During the investigation it was suggested that the accident was caused by a deliberate act by the relief first officer. However, there was no conclusive evidence. The NTSB concluded that the accident was a “result of the relief first officer’s flight control inputs. The reason for the relief first officer’s actions was not determined.” The suggestions of a deliberate act were heavily disputed by Egyptian authorities. (ASN Accident Description)

29 November 2013 – 33 fatalities
LAM Flight 470 entered a rapid descent while en route between Maputo and Luanda and crashed in Namibia. Preliminary investigation results indicate that the accident was intentional. The captain made control inputs that directed the plane to the ground, shortly after the first officer had left the flight deck. (ASN Accident Description)

Please see an updated list of aircraft accidents and incidents intentionally caused by pilots here:
http://news.aviation-safety.net/2015/03/26/list-of-aircraft-accidents-and-incidents-deliberately-caused-by-pilots/

[auckleyflyer]

SM. I bet she is, as if there not enough to do!
Our lass hasn't flown since 2007 but still worked at Robin hood on checkin /ticket desk until last yr.
She worked for yrs prior to Donny opening though.
As you know their all in touch on fb ect.
She's sure they used to do this as a matter of course as she can remember feeling a right spare part standing in the cabin waiting for someone havng a piss!!?!
As for overpowering one! Have you tried!! Formidable ladies.

[IC1967]

Look. It's very simple. Your 'evidence' does not stack up. I'm talking about a major airline operator. You have not listed one example where it has been conclusively proved that a pilot of a major airline killed himself and the passengers because he was suffering from mental illness.

Get a sense of perspective. Flying is the safest form of transport. No need to go over the top with any more health and safety. It's already safe enough thank you very much.

What you and your kind risk doing is condemning people with mental health problems to losing their jobs. And for what? Just so you'll feel safer getting on a plane. Get a grip ffs.

[wilts rover]

So Mick, if the list I posted (not mine by the way but taken from that website) does not show that crash was down to the pilot's state of mind at the time, what does it show?

As you also miss from that list, mental issues among aircrew has been around for a long while now and will be in the future. No one is suddenly going to loose their job, airlines, like I presume, bus companies, ferry operators, railways etc, have systems in place for helping their staff. However when someone refuses help and knows better than everyone else.

Could you get me the statistics which prove that air transport is safer than driving, rail, cycling or the other forms of travel?

I know lots of people with mental health issues, one or two of them associated with air flight. I doubt I will feel any more or less safe getting on a plane now than I did last week.

My kind? What kind is that then?

[IC1967]

So Mick, if the list I posted (not mine by the way but taken from that website) does not show that crash was down to the pilot's state of mind at the time, what does it show?

As you also miss from that list, mental issues among aircrew has been around for a long while now and will be in the future. No one is suddenly going to loose their job, airlines, like I presume, bus companies, ferry operators, railways etc, have systems in place for helping their staff. However when someone refuses help and knows better than everyone else.

Could you get me the statistics which prove that air transport is safer than driving, rail, cycling or the other forms of travel?

I know lots of people with mental health issues, one or two of them associated with air flight. I doubt I will feel any more or less safe getting on a plane now than I did last week.

My kind? What kind is that then?

Your kind is the people that think every risk in life can be managed to the point where there is no risk at all. It's called health and safety gone mad.

Unfortunately you don't think it through. Life would not be worth living if there was no risk at all. By reducing the risk of someone with mental health problems doing 'risky' jobs you would be putting millions on the dole and further stigmatising a group of people that are already not that well looked after or thought about.

This pilot probably hid his illness because he thought he would end up losing his job. So things need to improve regarding people's attitude to mental health not get worse than it already is.

Trying to eliminate the risk of someone doing what he did is not the way forward. It would only make matters worse as more people would hide their illness.

Like I said. Let's have a bit of perspective. The risk of dying in a plane flown by someone with mental health issues is far smaller than the risk you take every day just walking on a pavement hoping the car in the road isn't being driven by some fat person that's just had a massive heart attack and left the road and killed you.

You are very complacent about people not losing their jobs. I'll guarantee you there will be a knee jerk reaction to this incident and people with mental health issues will feel under threat and will be far more likely to hide their illness putting us all at more risk.

Unfortunately perspective is the last thing we will get regarding this incident.

http://mic.com/articles/53293/7-reasons-flying-is-still-the-safest-way-to-travel

[Filo]

In this day of electronics, radio and sattelite communications, surely a system. Can be developed that allowed the cockpit door lock to be opened from the ground, or to take it a step further the planes controls be disabled from the ground and the plane remotely controlled

I think I need a career change to R&D