NHS funding crisis and junior doctors striking

[bobjimwilly]

Cameron, yet again, showing us the adult way to respond to a perfectly reasonable and legitimate line of questionning about the NHS:

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/702500461312512000

 

[Filo]

And those children run the Country!

[Donnywolf]

I have little time for them any more and that retort by Cameron has to be one of the most pig ignorant / disrespectful / totally unfunny riposte anyone has made in PQM.s

Totally uncalled for

I don't have much time for Jeremy Corbyn and as it stands I (as a mere member of the Electorate) reckon he will prevent Labour being elected while he remains Leader BUT ...

He is more of a man - has more principles (and sticks to them) than the f*****g WEASEL that has just insulted him - and that will NEVER change

[BobG]

I thought Cameron's response was incredibly informative tbh. It told us all, in no uncertain tems, that the Eton Bully is under pressure. A lot of pressure. Stupid statements, like that one, come when people are under strain.

Personally, although I passionately want to stay in Europe, I'm glad the little shit is feeling the heat at long last.

Bob

[bobjimwilly]

I have little time for them any more and that retort by Cameron has to be one of the most pig ignorant / disrespectful / totally unfunny riposte anyone has made in PQM.s

was that pun on purpose DW?

[Yorkiered]

I do find it quite funny the amount of abuse Jeremy Corbyn gets about his dress sense when there is a very good possibility that the equally scruffy buffoon who is mayor of London could be the next leader of the Conservative party.
He could be in the most expensive Savile Row suit and still be a scruff.
As the saying goes "You can't polish a turd"

[MrFrost]

A nicely edited clip.
I see Corbyn is under more pressure today. I admire his principles but everything he does plays into the hands of his critics.

[Donnywolf]

I have little time for them any more and that retort by Cameron has to be one of the most pig ignorant / disrespectful / totally unfunny riposte anyone has made in PQM.s

was that pun on purpose DW?

No cant take the credit for that !

Anyway it was the Pig doing the gnawing wasn't it ?

[redwine]

Wasn't it Thatcher who said

 "I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left."

Hameron has obviously not been reading his heroine's " Politics for Dummies " manual

[Sammy Chung was King]

Those who voted Cameron in must be very proud of themselves, i have never seen a government so openly ride roughshod over rules and regulations. Nothing is beyond their reach to ruin, does anybody think it could have been any worse if Ed Miliband had got the prime ministers post?.
 I think he would have been much fairer and tried to do the right thing. I genuinely worry what's in store for our country with this lot in power.
If you offered me Corbyn as pm tomorrow i would snap it up, i don't care how the fella dresses, i thought it was disrespectful for Cameron insulting an older man like that, surely there should be some respect shown between leaders?.

[BobG]

I saw that one of the current Lib-Dem MP's said, in parliament, last week that he believed this Government is creating a one party state. Whether it is by intent or not isn't clear, but he seems to have reached the same conclusion I've mentioned on here a few times. This Government is more scary even than that of Mrs T.

And where the chuff is the Loyal Opposition???? The Tory Party is in disarray. They are even fighting amongst themselves in public now. Yet what is the Opposition doing exactly???? Jeremy Corbyn: an abject lesson in political failure.

This has to be just about the most shameful Parliament this country has ever had the misfortune to suffer. Lord North is about the only competitor I can come up with at the moment.

BobG

[Glyn_Wigley]

We can but hope that the EU argument will do to the Tories what the Irish Home Rule question did in the past...

[BobG]

Now that would be just wonderful

BobG

[The Red Baron]

We can but hope that the EU argument will do to the Tories what the Irish Home Rule question did in the past...

I thought it was Irish Home Rule that split the Liberals? The huge Tory split was over the Corn Laws.

[The Red Baron]

I saw that one of the current Lib-Dem MP's said, in parliament, last week that he believed this Government is creating a one party state. Whether it is by intent or not isn't clear, but he seems to have reached the same conclusion I've mentioned on here a few times. This Government is more scary even than that of Mrs T.

And where the chuff is the Loyal Opposition???? The Tory Party is in disarray. They are even fighting amongst themselves in public now. Yet what is the Opposition doing exactly???? Jeremy Corbyn: an abject lesson in political failure.

This has to be just about the most shameful Parliament this country has ever had the misfortune to suffer. Lord North is about the only competitor I can come up with at the moment.

BobG

Hardly a one party state when they are fighting each other like ferrets in a sack. But you are right about the weakness of the opposition. It's easy to blame it on Corbyn and he's a poor performer, but another factor is that some of the more effective communicators on the Labour side have taken their bats home.

Personally I think what we're seeing is symptomatic of a 2-3 party system that is no longer fit for purpose - although we haven't found anything to replace it with yet. Add that to the reality that so few MPs have  "real world" experience and you have the recipe for an ineffective Parliament.

[Glyn_Wigley]

We can but hope that the EU argument will do to the Tories what the Irish Home Rule question did in the past...

I thought it was Irish Home Rule that split the Liberals? The huge Tory split was over the Corn Laws.

Yes it was, you're quite right, I was getting them mixed up. However, the principle still stands. Especially as Cameron has been stupid enough to do something that Wilson was clever enough not to do: make it virtually a vote of confidence in him and his negotiating skills.

When Wilson had the referendum in 1975 he left it to individual MPs consciences - because of this he was able to suspend Cabinet Collective Responsibility without it affectijg any other issue or the Government as an entity.

Cameron has been utterly stupid to tie the referendum to his re-negotiations. By doing this, those Cabinet members who intend to vote 'no' are in effect saying that they don't believe the Prime Minister when he tells the country he has negotiated a good deal. If it's a 'Yes' vote it'll be very difficult for Cameron to keep them in his cabinet (and it'll be a sizable chunk of the Cabinet that he'll have to junk), if it's a 'No' vote, Cameron will have to go and it's anybody's guess who'll get the vote to be PM after that...blood up the walls in the process too I'd guess.

It's made it very difficult to raise the issue above the body politic and be treated as a non-party issue.

[The Red Baron]

I agree Glyn. It also explains why Cameron and Osborne have ramped up the rhetoric since the vote was announced.

And of course, if people start to see voting to Leave is a good way of sticking it up the pair of them, it could have very dangerous consequences for the Remain side.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Twice in a week I've found myself agreeing with Matthew Parris in The Times.

Called it spot on yesterday. Whichever side wins the referendum, that side of the Tory party has to annihilate the other side afterwards. No talk of reconciliation and everyone pulling in the same direction. The likes of Gove and Johnson and Duncan-Smith have openly called the PM's judgement into question and implicitly questioned his honesty. If they lose the vote, that's their careers over. Done. Finished. Cameron must knife them immediately and mercilessly.

Same the other way round. 

The alternative is that the Europe question festers on and poisons the Tory party for another generation. For the Tories to be able to move on, they have to finish this question decisively.
   

[The Red Baron]

I'd have thought if Cameron does get the result he wants and then carries out a Night of the Long Knives that UKIP will end up with some quite significant recruits.

A lot depends on the scale of the result. I would have thought a sizeable majority for Remain would make it easier for Cameron to be magnanimous.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Id have thought exactly the opposite TRB. If there is a sizeable Remain majority (say 60/40, which wouldn't surprise me unless the Remain campaign is a mess) then the Europe question is finished for half a century. Cameron can then go down in history as the Tory Leader who ended 30 years of low-level civil war in his party on the subject by ousting the Leave "rebels" (which is what they'll be painted as). Those rebels will have made the wrong call on the biggest question in a generation. They'll be extinct volcanoes.

Plus, what would UKIP's point or attraction be if "Leave" had been trounced in the referendum? (Has Farage promised to step down if the vote goes for Stay? Not that it's matter after the vote anyway - I'm sure he'd make up some piss and wind story that justified his remaining.)

[The Red Baron]

I think 60/40 is about the tipping point for burying the issue. However you've got to remember that whatever the result you are talking about half the Parliamentary party being on the wrong side.

Some of the "Leavers" might step down from the government anyway - I can see Duncan Smith doing that and Grayling was probably one reshuffle away from the sack anyway. But he will have to make peace with some of them, especially the younger ones. In the tent p*ssing out, and all that.

I'll throw something else in. Whatever the result, I don't think Cameron will be around long. He's said he won't fight another term and if he wins the referendum convincingly he might be tempted to go out on a high. And he can do something Thatcher failed to do- secure the succession because Osborne would be a shoo-in. Of course, if by chance he loses, he's toast.

PS. On UKIP, I agree that a big Remain vote would largely remove its raison d'etre. However, what happens to its members and voters? A sensible Tory leader would want to try to woo a decent number of them. The worst outcome would be for Tory malcontents to join UKIP in some kind of (English) National Party.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

You're right of course about it being half the party. And maybe it is unrealistic to wield the axe on such a scale.

Trouble is, this is such a visceral issue that the losing side will not simply shut up about it. It cuts too deeply.

There are very strong parallels with the Labour Party from 75-81. The Left which was so strongly against the EEC did not just accept the result of the referendum. They kept on and on and on, pushing their case. By 81, they had made it Labour official policy to leave the EEC. And that precipitated the catastrophic split of the Gang of Four, the effects of which have hampered centre Left politics to this day.

If Cameron wins and doesn't wield the axe, the euro-sceptic Tories will not just shut up. They will continue to argue and bait and push their view, just as Benn, Shore, Heffer et al did in the late 70s.

If Cameron wins the referendum, he has a historic chance to finish the split in the Tory Party by cauterising his opponents. Isolating them from positions of power. Moving the Cabinet leftwards.

It's a risk, but so is the alternative as history shows.

If only we had a competent Opposition to take advantage of the fur-flying that is going to come on the Right over this year.

[Sammy Chung was King]

I get the feeling that this goverment can't lose, and aren't really bothered by staying in the EU, i wonder if we are subconciously being led down the route they want us to take, by voting out of the EU.
If they stay in it, the personal gravy train will be lapped up by each and every mp, if we come out of it, they will have no restrictions on doing exactly as they want.

 They can go after the sick and disabled, the working person just making ends meet, and nobody will be able to do anything about it.
 And once they have destroyed the whole fabric of our country, they will retire abroad, out of the way of all the criminals they have let in.
Is this goverment trying to create a dictatorship, that is no different to other countries who have been criticised in the past?.
 This government has a very ugly feel to it for me, we are living in very worrying times!.

[BobG]

You know what Sammy? You're more right than you realise. Let me give you just one example of how these people make the rules to suit themselves:

i'm not 'rich' by any reasonable definition of the word. But I'm not poor either. And I do have a company of which I am the owner, proprietor and beneficiary. Now, if I, as a private individual, should happen to loan my company, lets say £100,000, that company could then use that money to buy an AVC for guess who? Yes. Got it in one: me. So, I then have £100K invested in a pension that, you are probably thinking, in effect I have paid for. But not so!

The company pays me interest on the amount of the loan: current acceptable and reasonable rate is 8.5% (!!!). And the interest paid to me is deductible from the profits of the company so avoiding paying 20% corporation tax on that profit. Even better, from my point of view, the company can repay me the loan, at any rate that the company and I decide. And guess what? All that repayment is also offsettable against profit! So the company saves 20% corporation tax on the £100K it is repaying to me. Of course, it's my company actually, so the £20K that's been saved, plus the corporation tax saved by paying me the interest, all comes to me one way or another anyway in the end!

So I end up with an AVC in which £100K has been invested, my £100K stake money back in my own pocket, interest at 8.5% paid to me for as long as I let the loan last (which would be a long, long time cos where else are you gonna get interest at that level?!) and another £20K, plus 20% of all the interest paid to me, sat in the company account as a result of not having to use it to pay corporation tax that should otherwise have been paid.

It's simple. Got some money? The Tories show you how to make some more. This isn't even complicated or difficult. It's licensed tax avoidance. All you need is a company and some money to lend to the company. I'm actually doing this right now. It's not right. It's not pretty. But them's the rules.

It's hardly credible. To think that we let this sort of thing go on all around us.... We get what we deserve tbh.

BobG

[Sammy Chung was King]

You know what Sammy? You're more right than you realise. Let me give you just one example of how these people make the rules to suit themselves:

i'm not 'rich' by any reasonable definition of the word. But I'm not poor either. And I do have a company of which I am the owner, proprietor and beneficiary. Now, if I, as a private individual, should happen to loan my company, lets say £100,000, that company could then use that money to buy an AVC for guess who? Yes. Got it in one: me. So, I then have £100K invested in a pension that, you are probably thinking, in effect I have paid for. But not so!

The company pays me interest on the amount of the loan: current acceptable and reasonable rate is 8.5% (!!!). And the interest paid to me is deductible from the profits of the company so avoiding paying 20% corporation tax on that profit. Even better, from my point of view, the company can repay me the loan, at any rate that the company, me and the bank account decide. And guess what? All that repayment is also offsettable against profit! So the company saves 20% corporation tax on the £100K it is repaying to me. of course, it's my company actually, so the £20K that's been saved, plus the corporation tax saved by paying me interest instead, all comes to me one way or another anyway in the end!

All you need is a company and some money to lend to the company. I'm actually doing this right now. Not right. And not pretty. But them's the rules.

BobG

I'm sure they are doing much worse, if it's in the rules then you have a right to do it, the problem is if they decide to change the rules and start coming after you.
They have done it with celebrities putting money in tax saving pots, it was in the rules then they decided it wasn't.
 I know practically nothing about how businesses run, but if you can get ahead with their rules why not?. You have to look after yourself and family.

What i would like to see is everyday people in government, people who have run businesses would be ideal in balancing the books of the country.
And other people who have struggled, know the price of a loaf, and have enough intelligence and most important of all, such good values that they don't give in to corruption.
I would like to see MP's that come from the area they represent, and once they get voted in serve the people rather than themselves, i feel our goverment is no better than FIFA.

[BillyStubbsTears]

There was an example in the first few weeks of the last Parliament that really brought home what class warriors the Tories are. How they look after their own.

Gordon Brown introduced Child Savings Accounts. Trying to encourage people to save for their kids' futures. Especially poorer people who have an appalling record of saving.

To encourage people to take up the CSAs, the Govt put £500 into each one as a starter. Flat rate for every child in the country. You can think of it as a tax for everyone with a new child.

The Tories were up in arms about it. Said we couldn't afford to at for it. Said they would do away with it if the got into power in 2010.

They did. Within weeks.

Except they didn't totally do away with CSAs. They changed them to Junior ISAs. They did away with the £500 flat rate funding. But they still have tax breaks. They allowed you to put an amount tax free into the accounts for your kids. Currently £4000 per year.

So, for a wealthy family, paying the top 45% rate and with 4 kids, that is effectively an annual £7200 tax cut. And it was paid for by taking £500 from every baby of every other family in the country, including ones whose parents are on the minimum wage.

Utterly f**king despicable. But that's the Tories.